Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
however, with how high rating conversions are, you might gain 40 dodge rating across your whole gear set gemming 8 dodge/12 stam opposed to 8exp/12stam.
40 dodge rating doesn't convert to much dodge these days, even sitting at only 20% dodge, the 84 from the Valor Medal is only 1.6% for me.
That much survivability isn't going to boost your capability much, but gaining 40 expertise rating will. And will increase survivability from less parries to boot (though this isn't as immediately noticeable).
Hmmm thanks. Thankfully I have many JC friends! I have not begin even doing heroics yet, I am half waiting to get all the best blues from the Non heroics / quests and half waiting for 3.1 so I can dual spec so I don't lose fury as well.
Imo prot is the most "fun" warrior spec. It's just not fun when you're relegated to trash tanking and tanking a boss now and again when the RL decides to toss you a bone.
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
Imo prot is the most "fun" warrior spec. It's just not fun when you're relegated to trash tanking and tanking a boss now and again when the RL decides to toss you a bone.
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
I know the feeling. What's worse is when the MT choice is made though politics and not on who knows their shit.
Imo prot is the most "fun" warrior spec. It's just not fun when you're relegated to trash tanking and tanking a boss now and again when the RL decides to toss you a bone.
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
I know the feeling. What's worse is when the MT choice is made though politics and not on who knows their shit.
No, what's worse is when the MT choice is made because "the DK tank has the most HP, so he's MT," because the raid leadership knows next to nothing about tanking. Worse is because of this policy, the other warrior tank has started gemming, enchanting, and changing professions purely for more stamina. Because the dominant philosophy in our guild is more HP = better tank.
Which is why I'm perfectly content to DPS and tank whenever I can be useful, but not to stress out about it otherwise. Dual spec will be fantastic for that.
Luckily the Naxx25 I was in last night, they knew that the 45k hp Druid wasn't the MT and the 37k hp Paladin was better off because of better avoidance.
We're continuing our raid tonight and I hope one of three tanks doesn't show up so I can tank for them. There's just something about being Fury that makes me feel bored. Maybe it's because I spend whole fights mashing 2, 3, 5 (Blood, Whirl, Slam) and sometimes 4 and Shift+4 (HS, Cleave) with no real thought behind it.
Luckily the Naxx25 I was in last night, they knew that the 45k hp Druid wasn't the MT and the 37k hp Paladin was better off because of better avoidance.
We're continuing our raid tonight and I hope one of three tanks doesn't show up so I can tank for them. There's just something about being Fury that makes me feel bored. Maybe it's because I spend whole fights mashing 2, 3, 5 (Blood, Whirl, Slam) and sometimes 4 and Shift+4 (HS, Cleave) with no real thought behind it.
Sometimes tanking is more engaging than that. Just like DPS is sometimes more than a simple rotation. It all depends on what boss you're fighting, really.
Well yeah, but every fight it's like the only difference I make to my button presses is Cleave or HS based on multiple targets or a single target. Tanking multiple targets takes way more thought than that. After frontloading with Shockwave and Thunderclap, targetting between the various mobs to hold agro is something that requires actual thought. You don't have to target around when you're doing DPS. Even on a single target, using the order properly to maximize your threat requires some form of thought. With Fury, there is no order. Just button mashing.
With Fury, there is no order. Just button mashing.
Now there's an oversimplification if ever I've seen one.
If single target fury is mindless button mashing, so is single target prot. It's the ability to prioritize abilities that makes the difference between a bad dps warrior or tank and a good one, no matter what the spec.
With Fury, there is no order. Just button mashing.
Now there's an oversimplification if ever I've seen one.
If single target fury is mindless button mashing, so is single target prot. It's the ability to prioritize abilities that makes the difference between a bad dps warrior or tank and a good one, no matter what the spec.
I agree, it's too easy to do that with any role you've been playing too long and have gotten tired of.
Multiple target trash pulls are just as bad an indicator of how much fun you can have as tank and spank fights are, too, in my opinion.
Speaking of multiple target trash pulls, does it bother anyone else that we have like the worst AE DPS in the game?
Fury isn't off too too bad with a short WW cooldown, WW hitting with two weapons, and the ability to cleave without completely destroying rage generation, but arms just seems to get completely hosed. Bladestorm (in my experience) is pretty mediocre in PvE, Sweeping Strikes is pretty eh as well. They should remove the target limit from BS, and/or add a third/fourth target to SS.
Honestly, I wouldn't even care if all melee classes were equally worthless for AoE. I'd be perfectly content with mages, warlocks, and hunters doing their AE thing, if it weren't for cat swipe and fan of knives (and to a lesser extent consecrate and holy wrath). That just drives me nuts while I'm hitting 4 targets at a time for 6 seconds out of every minute. It's the fact for some reason it was a crime against humanity for rogues and ferals to not have big AE abilities, but it's ok for warriors.
Cleave is pretty awesome. With the Glyph you hit 3 duders pretty damn hard. WW is also pretty epic. Also Saronite bombs! No mage but mah.
Arms WW hits about 60% as hard as Fury WW and you have to be in zerker to use it. Bladestorm is ok, for 6 seconds every two minutes. Arms can't cleave much without rage starving itself (no offhand to supply rage while the MH swing is taken up by the special), and glyphing for trash isn't advisable in general.
We don't *need* AE damage, it just irritates me that cat swipe and FoN exist because cats and rogues apparently did.
Fury doesn't have it quite as bad because their WW hits like a truck and is on a shorter cooldown.
Imo prot is the most "fun" warrior spec. It's just not fun when you're relegated to trash tanking and tanking a boss now and again when the RL decides to toss you a bone.
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
I know the feeling. What's worse is when the MT choice is made though politics and not on who knows their shit.
No, what's worse is when the MT choice is made because "the DK tank has the most HP, so he's MT," because the raid leadership knows next to nothing about tanking. Worse is because of this policy, the other warrior tank has started gemming, enchanting, and changing professions purely for more stamina. Because the dominant philosophy in our guild is more HP = better tank.
Which is why I'm perfectly content to DPS and tank whenever I can be useful, but not to stress out about it otherwise. Dual spec will be fantastic for that.
i'd argue that HP is a defining choice for tanks
i'd take a warrior with 40k buffed and 55% avoidance (ie, my gear) over one with 60% and 35k buffed any day.
Fury and Arms have similar AoE capabilities on average. Both are pretty bad, though.
Doesn't really bother me.
I'm paraphrasing here, but a blue recently (less than 30 days ago) said "On the whole, warrior AoE damage is higher than rogues."
I read this the day after watching a rogue do 8k DPS overall for an entire wing of Naxx.
EDIT: @Dehumanized - I play Fury, so don't use TC ever, but isn't it pretty terrible unless there are, say, 10+ targets to hit?
Yeah, it's not worth the stance dance as fury, but it's just kinda there as Arms. Doesn't become worthwhile until you've got 4+ targets, but as you gather more targets it becomes increasingly better as it's the only button you can press that doesn't have a target cap. Situational, but it quickly can become your best use of a global as arms when killing large packs of trash.
I can't recall the blue post you're referencing. I seem to recall something like that before FoK was spammable, maybe. Rogue AoE is quite ridiculous right now. Like I said earlier, I don't really let it bother me. Warrior AoE is okay from a sustained perspective -- as both Fury and Arms we can put out a good bit while just doing our regular DPS rotations. It really shines when you're in a situation like, say, Faerlina where the adds can be tanked nearby but aren't the primary DPS target. When up against the sort of trash pulls naxx offers -- an 8s cooldown whirlwind with its 4 target cap will probably mean you'll get to AE once, possibly twice each pull on only a few targets. Pretty meh, altogether.
Am I the only person who dislikes fury? It feels like my entire time is spent waiting on BT and WW cooldowns. When I spec arms I always have something to do (MS, Rend, Overpower, Execute, Slam), the only downside is that it takes a couple seconds more to kill mobs (at level 73).
Imo prot is the most "fun" warrior spec. It's just not fun when you're relegated to trash tanking and tanking a boss now and again when the RL decides to toss you a bone.
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
I know the feeling. What's worse is when the MT choice is made though politics and not on who knows their shit.
No, what's worse is when the MT choice is made because "the DK tank has the most HP, so he's MT," because the raid leadership knows next to nothing about tanking. Worse is because of this policy, the other warrior tank has started gemming, enchanting, and changing professions purely for more stamina. Because the dominant philosophy in our guild is more HP = better tank.
Which is why I'm perfectly content to DPS and tank whenever I can be useful, but not to stress out about it otherwise. Dual spec will be fantastic for that.
i'd argue that HP is a defining choice for tanks
i'd take a warrior with 40k buffed and 55% avoidance (ie, my gear) over one with 60% and 35k buffed any day.
It is a defining choice, but not the defining choice. They make this decision without regard to anything else, including ability to hold aggro, react situationally, or do any of the other less obvious things that make a great tank great. That was my problem with it - it wasn't "DK, tank because you're the best at it," it was "DK, tank because you have the most HP." That is infuriating as a prot warrior who out threats the same DK on AE packs, let alone single target fights. We're not talking about a Sarth 3D guild here. This is a guild that routinely wipes on things like Heigan.
Am I the only person who dislikes fury? It feels like my entire time is spent waiting on BT and WW cooldowns. When I spec arms I always have something to do (MS, Rend, Overpower, Execute, Slam), the only downside is that it takes a couple seconds more to kill mobs (at level 73).
I don't really enjoy arms (though last time I specced it was BC) so maybe I'm your balance.
But with my gear I think any warrior spec can be fun. Honestly, once you have gear ahead of the curve, warrior gets like fifty times more fun.
I also don't think warrior AE is weak, but I have the glyph of cleave and am Fury, so I'm not really hurting in that department. I'm also not competing against a bunch of 25 man geared AoE classes, either, so... yeah.
I'm actually really happy, where my warrior is. I'm very sad that Fury's losing weapon mastery and gaining -10% spec, but oh well, I'll ride this change out just like I have every other.
The problem for me is deciding which spec to have as my offspec - I have a prot set, but never, ever want to tank on my warrior. I got a paladin to 80 for that shit.
I haven't really been well geared ever, but I almost never ever die and there's rarely any downtime at all, since I don't need to eat food if I don't take any damage
This may be because I'm level 52, but I have a 70 priest on another realm, alliance side, so I know what's coming up in terms of content from the outland, and I don't really see anything changing much. Revenge, heroic strike (with my glyph of revenge) and shield slam deal pretty nice damage do any mob I should really be fighting at my level.
I tried fury and arms and I don't really like either of them. Too reckless and too much downtime, where with prot I can stay in the action almost indefinitely, especially with the bandages, which tend to heal for enough damage to counter the last several combats, accidental multi-pulls notwithstanding.
I leveled from 40-60 as Fury, from 60-70 as Arms, and from 70-80 as Prot. I loved all of them. Prot was fantastic for the survivability and surprisingly fun to play, but I can't imagine having done it without the damage boosts it got in Wrath.
Of course, I'm also one of those "enjoying every aspect of the class" weirdos.
I haven't really been well geared ever, but I almost never ever die and there's rarely any downtime at all, since I don't need to eat food if I don't take any damage
This may be because I'm level 52, but I have a 70 priest on another realm, alliance side, so I know what's coming up in terms of content from the outland, and I don't really see anything changing much. Revenge, heroic strike (with my glyph of revenge) and shield slam deal pretty nice damage do any mob I should really be fighting at my level.
I tried fury and arms and I don't really like either of them. Too reckless and too much downtime, where with prot I can stay in the action almost indefinitely, especially with the bandages, which tend to heal for enough damage to counter the last several combats, accidental multi-pulls notwithstanding.
Since they changed prot to actually deal decent damage there is nothing wrong with leveling prot, I did it myself, partly for the reasons you described and partly because I enjoyed tanking instances.
Definitely nothing wrong with leveling prot nowadays I'd say. I leveled as prot for wrath from 70-80 so I could learn the instances and be a good tank once my guild got into naxx. My favorite moment was soloing that elite quest in I think Zuldrak at the end of the long ass chain where you fight that caster in the temple place (you know, that time at that place with that guy.....) I had to do a /flex both ingame and in my seat even though no one was around to see either
I leveled up as fury 1-70 because arms was so boring, but then 3.0 came along and arms suddenly became great (while fury stayed the same, only with bigger numbers). Prot is my favorate, but I'm trying to rush through 70-80 as fast as posisble atm.
We don't *need* AE damage, it just irritates me that cat swipe and FoN exist because cats and rogues apparently did.
Nives.
Also, warriors still have decent AE damage. Cats literally had none until swipe, and rogues had pathetic AE with FoK on a 10 second cooldown.
forty on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
only main difference between a prot levelling build and a prot endgame tank build is that you don't take Puncture in a tank build but you do in a levelling build.
Well, I think a prot leveling build might be better off putting points into fury before arms, at least until impale can be filled out.
forty on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
impale = arms
impale is not good enough for levelling to slow down working your way down the prot tree. i'd go at least 51 points in prot ,maybe 5 in fury, before i touched arms
impale is not good enough for levelling to slow down working your way down the prot tree. i'd go at least 51 points in prot ,maybe 5 in fury, before i touched arms
Uhh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You go 5X in prot, then sometime in Outland you can start filling out arms or fury. An end game tank build has 12-15 in arms and the rest in fury, but when you only have 1-12 points to spend outside of prot (i.e., leveling), it'd probably be better to start with AtT and Cruelty rather than the mehtastic T1/2 arms talents.
Why would you take Puncture in a leveling build? SA is pretty meh-tastic as far as leveling goes, and by the time you reach Devastate you already have Focused Rage. Only talent I can maybe see taking for leveling and not endgame is Imp SR, just because casters are a pain at low gear levels.
Why would you take Puncture in a leveling build? SA is pretty meh-tastic as far as leveling goes, and by the time you reach Devastate you already have Focused Rage. Only talent I can maybe see taking for leveling and not endgame is Imp SR, just because casters are a pain at low gear levels.
Good news - Puncture and FR stack, and it's helpful while leveling to have cheap devastates to fish for SaB procs. You're not always swimming in rage while leveling as prot.
I wouldn't really bother with avoidance talents while leveling either.
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If you're a bad, you might need both.
40 dodge rating doesn't convert to much dodge these days, even sitting at only 20% dodge, the 84 from the Valor Medal is only 1.6% for me.
That much survivability isn't going to boost your capability much, but gaining 40 expertise rating will. And will increase survivability from less parries to boot (though this isn't as immediately noticeable).
So I'm arms, and prot will be my dual spec. I'm looking forward to it, it'll be like WoW 1.0 when I could do great dps (as fury) and then switch to my tank gear and still hold my own.
No, what's worse is when the MT choice is made because "the DK tank has the most HP, so he's MT," because the raid leadership knows next to nothing about tanking. Worse is because of this policy, the other warrior tank has started gemming, enchanting, and changing professions purely for more stamina. Because the dominant philosophy in our guild is more HP = better tank.
Which is why I'm perfectly content to DPS and tank whenever I can be useful, but not to stress out about it otherwise. Dual spec will be fantastic for that.
We're continuing our raid tonight and I hope one of three tanks doesn't show up so I can tank for them. There's just something about being Fury that makes me feel bored. Maybe it's because I spend whole fights mashing 2, 3, 5 (Blood, Whirl, Slam) and sometimes 4 and Shift+4 (HS, Cleave) with no real thought behind it.
Now there's an oversimplification if ever I've seen one.
If single target fury is mindless button mashing, so is single target prot. It's the ability to prioritize abilities that makes the difference between a bad dps warrior or tank and a good one, no matter what the spec.
Multiple target trash pulls are just as bad an indicator of how much fun you can have as tank and spank fights are, too, in my opinion.
Fury isn't off too too bad with a short WW cooldown, WW hitting with two weapons, and the ability to cleave without completely destroying rage generation, but arms just seems to get completely hosed. Bladestorm (in my experience) is pretty mediocre in PvE, Sweeping Strikes is pretty eh as well. They should remove the target limit from BS, and/or add a third/fourth target to SS.
Honestly, I wouldn't even care if all melee classes were equally worthless for AoE. I'd be perfectly content with mages, warlocks, and hunters doing their AE thing, if it weren't for cat swipe and fan of knives (and to a lesser extent consecrate and holy wrath). That just drives me nuts while I'm hitting 4 targets at a time for 6 seconds out of every minute. It's the fact for some reason it was a crime against humanity for rogues and ferals to not have big AE abilities, but it's ok for warriors.
Doesn't really bother me.
Also, FUCK DKS!
Arms WW hits about 60% as hard as Fury WW and you have to be in zerker to use it. Bladestorm is ok, for 6 seconds every two minutes. Arms can't cleave much without rage starving itself (no offhand to supply rage while the MH swing is taken up by the special), and glyphing for trash isn't advisable in general.
We don't *need* AE damage, it just irritates me that cat swipe and FoN exist because cats and rogues apparently did.
Fury doesn't have it quite as bad because their WW hits like a truck and is on a shorter cooldown.
I'm paraphrasing here, but a blue recently (less than 30 days ago) said "On the whole, warrior AoE damage is higher than rogues."
I read this the day after watching a rogue do 8k DPS overall for an entire wing of Naxx.
EDIT: @Dehumanized - I play Fury, so don't use TC ever, but isn't it pretty terrible unless there are, say, 10+ targets to hit?
i'd argue that HP is a defining choice for tanks
i'd take a warrior with 40k buffed and 55% avoidance (ie, my gear) over one with 60% and 35k buffed any day.
Yeah, it's not worth the stance dance as fury, but it's just kinda there as Arms. Doesn't become worthwhile until you've got 4+ targets, but as you gather more targets it becomes increasingly better as it's the only button you can press that doesn't have a target cap. Situational, but it quickly can become your best use of a global as arms when killing large packs of trash.
I can't recall the blue post you're referencing. I seem to recall something like that before FoK was spammable, maybe. Rogue AoE is quite ridiculous right now. Like I said earlier, I don't really let it bother me. Warrior AoE is okay from a sustained perspective -- as both Fury and Arms we can put out a good bit while just doing our regular DPS rotations. It really shines when you're in a situation like, say, Faerlina where the adds can be tanked nearby but aren't the primary DPS target. When up against the sort of trash pulls naxx offers -- an 8s cooldown whirlwind with its 4 target cap will probably mean you'll get to AE once, possibly twice each pull on only a few targets. Pretty meh, altogether.
It is a defining choice, but not the defining choice. They make this decision without regard to anything else, including ability to hold aggro, react situationally, or do any of the other less obvious things that make a great tank great. That was my problem with it - it wasn't "DK, tank because you're the best at it," it was "DK, tank because you have the most HP." That is infuriating as a prot warrior who out threats the same DK on AE packs, let alone single target fights. We're not talking about a Sarth 3D guild here. This is a guild that routinely wipes on things like Heigan.
I don't really enjoy arms (though last time I specced it was BC) so maybe I'm your balance.
But with my gear I think any warrior spec can be fun. Honestly, once you have gear ahead of the curve, warrior gets like fifty times more fun.
I also don't think warrior AE is weak, but I have the glyph of cleave and am Fury, so I'm not really hurting in that department. I'm also not competing against a bunch of 25 man geared AoE classes, either, so... yeah.
I'm actually really happy, where my warrior is. I'm very sad that Fury's losing weapon mastery and gaining -10% spec, but oh well, I'll ride this change out just like I have every other.
The problem for me is deciding which spec to have as my offspec - I have a prot set, but never, ever want to tank on my warrior. I got a paladin to 80 for that shit.
Well.
They are poobumdiaperheads.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=The+Scryers&n=Boohbaloo
I haven't really been well geared ever, but I almost never ever die and there's rarely any downtime at all, since I don't need to eat food if I don't take any damage
This may be because I'm level 52, but I have a 70 priest on another realm, alliance side, so I know what's coming up in terms of content from the outland, and I don't really see anything changing much. Revenge, heroic strike (with my glyph of revenge) and shield slam deal pretty nice damage do any mob I should really be fighting at my level.
I tried fury and arms and I don't really like either of them. Too reckless and too much downtime, where with prot I can stay in the action almost indefinitely, especially with the bandages, which tend to heal for enough damage to counter the last several combats, accidental multi-pulls notwithstanding.
Of course, I'm also one of those "enjoying every aspect of the class" weirdos.
Since they changed prot to actually deal decent damage there is nothing wrong with leveling prot, I did it myself, partly for the reasons you described and partly because I enjoyed tanking instances.
Also, warriors still have decent AE damage. Cats literally had none until swipe, and rogues had pathetic AE with FoK on a 10 second cooldown.
That's about all really.
impale is not good enough for levelling to slow down working your way down the prot tree. i'd go at least 51 points in prot ,maybe 5 in fury, before i touched arms
I meant FoK. I was thinking Fan and wrote FoN.
Uhh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You go 5X in prot, then sometime in Outland you can start filling out arms or fury. An end game tank build has 12-15 in arms and the rest in fury, but when you only have 1-12 points to spend outside of prot (i.e., leveling), it'd probably be better to start with AtT and Cruelty rather than the mehtastic T1/2 arms talents.
Good news - Puncture and FR stack, and it's helpful while leveling to have cheap devastates to fish for SaB procs. You're not always swimming in rage while leveling as prot.
I wouldn't really bother with avoidance talents while leveling either.