HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Peaked with THUG, everything after sucked for a while until they released Project 8 which was actually quite good. Then Skate came out and nothing has measured up since.
Was this posted here? It's like they're not even trying anymore.
That pretty much implies that Activision knows they have a ginormous turkey on their hands, and are hoping to maximize the number of poor fools who buy the game before the reviews come out. Common movie studio tactic when a movie sucks.
Yeah, exactly. Remember when you were wined and dined and playing our game with all those laughing, pretty people? That sure was fun, right? Right? Remember?
Was this posted here? It's like they're not even trying anymore.
That pretty much implies that Activision knows they have a ginormous turkey on their hands, and are hoping to maximize the number of poor fools who buy the game before the reviews come out. Common movie studio tactic when a movie sucks.
For me, I thought 1 was great, 2 was poop, 3 was a return to 1's form, 4 was awesome, and THUG was well done but lacked the level design of the previous games, and after that it was "what the fuck are you guys doing"
American Wasteland was fantastic. Not as a good game, mind you, but as an entertainingly surreal mashup of mediocre skateboarding gameplay, Xtreme attitude, and RPG tropes.
Was this posted here? It's like they're not even trying anymore.
That pretty much implies that Activision knows they have a ginormous turkey on their hands, and are hoping to maximize the number of poor fools who buy the game before the reviews come out. Common movie studio tactic when a movie sucks.
What does the link say?
Activision isn't sending out review copies of this one, instead offering journalists the chance to come to a three hour clusterfuck of a review event/festival (which of course everyone turned down).
For me, I thought 1 was great, 2 was poop, 3 was a return to 1's form, 4 was awesome, and THUG was well done but lacked the level design of the previous games, and after that it was "what the fuck are you guys doing"
American Wasteland was fantastic. Not as a good game, mind you, but as an entertainingly surreal mashup of mediocre skateboarding gameplay, Xtreme attitude, and RPG tropes.
I keep forgetting American Wasteland exists, actually. It kinda got lost in all the 360 launching.
I just watched the Giant Bomb quick look video for this. The video is hilarious, the game looks awful. Shame really, as I used to really enjoy Tony Hawk games.
brynstar on
Xbox Live: Xander51
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
I just watched the Giant Bomb quick look video for this. The video is hilarious, the game looks awful. Shame really, as I used to really enjoy Tony Hawk games.
Ugh. Do you really do a bunch of your navigation/video-watching from the inside of a T-Mobile Sidekick?
I just watched the Giant Bomb quick look video for this. The video is hilarious, the game looks awful. Shame really, as I used to really enjoy Tony Hawk games.
I watched the same earlier today.... that video was awful. They spent like 85% of their time in casual mode where all the steering is done for you.... um WTF? So you are showcasing some motion based controller and you aren't showing us how well the motion is handled?
ok, ok, I know they finally got to that point in the video where they did, but after like 20 minutes of ineptitude and acting like a bunch of oafish clods I was hard pressed to believe it was more lack of skill and experience with the controller than it sucking and being a bad peripheral. That made the video utterly worthless as there was no way to tell if the issue was the user or device.
and what is up with doing the tutorial mode in the video? you are basically giving the worst quick look at this. Uh we didn't spend more than 5 minutes with this thing and the time we did spend was in super easy do nothing mode, so let's learn the device together...
I'd like to see an impression from someone who has spent some time with it and attempted to get good with the device and then tell us the pitfalls of it.
I just watched the Giant Bomb quick look video for this. The video is hilarious, the game looks awful. Shame really, as I used to really enjoy Tony Hawk games.
I watched the same earlier today.... that video was awful. They spent like 85% of their time in casual mode where all the steering is done for you.... um WTF? So you are showcasing some motion based controller and you aren't showing us how well the motion is handled?
ok, ok, I know they finally got to that point in the video where they did, but after like 20 minutes of ineptitude and acting like a bunch of oafish clods I was hard pressed to believe it was more lack of skill and experience with the controller than it sucking and being a bad peripheral. That made the video utterly worthless as there was no way to tell if the issue was the user or device.
and what is up with doing the tutorial mode in the video? you are basically giving the worst quick look at this. Uh we didn't spend more than 5 minutes with this thing and the time we did spend was in super easy do nothing mode, so let's learn the device together...
I'd like to see an impression from someone who has spent some time with it and attempted to get good with the device and then tell us the pitfalls of it.
That's what their reviews are for. The quick looks are pretty often just them fumbling around. Give em a couple days to get the review together after actually giving the game some actual play time, and you'll get your much more in-depth review.
That's actually kind of the point... if you have to fumble around with the controller for a long time, will people want to bother?
There's a highlighted video on XBL about it. And Tony Hawk actually says a marketing line like 'People don't mind buying peripherals to play a game'...
It's a sad, sad thing seeing him shill so hard for this just because his name is on it. If I gave a shit about him or Birdhouse, I'd be tweaked that he can't be in the skate. games.
And is anybody struck by how 'stiff' the lines are? Any footage of any significant run and it seems like the board is on a rail (haha) even when it isn't. And that ghost image trail? Hey! Good idea! Let's distract the player by blocking his already terrible camera view with meaningless graphics!
Yeah, Hawk is a good businessman and has done wonders for the marketing of the sport in general, but now it's just a little sad. I guess one can still put on Animal Chin and have a good time, though!
I just watched the Giant Bomb quick look video for this. The video is hilarious, the game looks awful. Shame really, as I used to really enjoy Tony Hawk games.
I watched the same earlier today.... that video was awful. They spent like 85% of their time in casual mode where all the steering is done for you.... um WTF? So you are showcasing some motion based controller and you aren't showing us how well the motion is handled?
ok, ok, I know they finally got to that point in the video where they did, but after like 20 minutes of ineptitude and acting like a bunch of oafish clods I was hard pressed to believe it was more lack of skill and experience with the controller than it sucking and being a bad peripheral. That made the video utterly worthless as there was no way to tell if the issue was the user or device.
and what is up with doing the tutorial mode in the video? you are basically giving the worst quick look at this. Uh we didn't spend more than 5 minutes with this thing and the time we did spend was in super easy do nothing mode, so let's learn the device together...
I'd like to see an impression from someone who has spent some time with it and attempted to get good with the device and then tell us the pitfalls of it.
That's what their reviews are for. The quick looks are pretty often just them fumbling around. Give em a couple days to get the review together after actually giving the game some actual play time, and you'll get your much more in-depth review.
Honestly, it looked like shit in casual and even worse on confident. From Jeff's Twitter posts, it sounds like it doesn't get much better.
I can not wait to read a competent review of this thing. Gonna be such a panning
There are a few out, but I can't say how competent they are. G4's review is up. 1/5 and they're extremely disappointed because they like companies that try new things, but don't like it when the things they try utterly fail.
Aha, so that's it - they've marketed it towards the canine demographic... No wonder the majority of us look at it and slate the controller; it's not meant for us, it's meant for our pets.
BlitzAce1981 on
PSN ID - BlitzAce1981 FFXIV - Raiden Solitaire (Sargatanas)
Honestly, it looked like shit in casual and even worse on confident. From Jeff's Twitter posts, it sounds like it doesn't get much better.
again I'd ask, "it looked like shit" or "they looked like shit". I don't think I'd put them down as a reliable source after that initial video. I understand that was a quick glimpse in there, but first impressions are everything and they gave a horrible impression of the game because they didn't yet give the game a chance or learn how to play.
I'd gladly watch a more in depth review from the same guys if they put an honest effort into it.
how can multiple sites give it a 9 of 10 and others 5 of 10.... there shouldn't be that big a disparity in the ratings.... I haven't read each of those reviews yet to see why they chose the score, but I'm still leaning with my initial impressions that some reviewers aren't giving this a fair effort yet.
Well, it's not like the sites that gave it 9's are the most reliable. Never heard of them before.
And Activision didn't send out press copies for reviews, so I would be weary of any sites that put up reviews right away, which most of those sites did.
Honestly, it looked like shit in casual and even worse on confident. From Jeff's Twitter posts, it sounds like it doesn't get much better.
again I'd ask, "it looked like shit" or "they looked like shit". I don't think I'd put them down as a reliable source after that initial video. I understand that was a quick glimpse in there, but first impressions are everything and they gave a horrible impression of the game because they didn't yet give the game a chance or learn how to play.
I'd gladly watch a more in depth review from the same guys if they put an honest effort into it.
how can multiple sites give it a 9 of 10 and others 5 of 10.... there shouldn't be that big a disparity in the ratings.... I haven't read each of those reviews yet to see why they chose the score, but I'm still leaning with my initial impressions that some reviewers aren't giving this a fair effort yet.
Yeah, it's totally impossible for different people to have different opinions.
Honestly, it looked like shit in casual and even worse on confident. From Jeff's Twitter posts, it sounds like it doesn't get much better.
again I'd ask, "it looked like shit" or "they looked like shit". I don't think I'd put them down as a reliable source after that initial video. I understand that was a quick glimpse in there, but first impressions are everything and they gave a horrible impression of the game because they didn't yet give the game a chance or learn how to play.
I'd gladly watch a more in depth review from the same guys if they put an honest effort into it.
I think they gave the game plenty of time and showed us a fair and balanced take on how a normal person might feel playing this game. That is, having trouble doing the simplest of tricks even in the tutorial, having trouble steering, noticeable lag when performing any action...it really doesn't take long.
I can't imagine someone saying "oh, we were totally wrong, once we got to the advanced stages of the game we were playing like a pro as we did in the old Tony Hawks! Our initial impressions were wrong, everyone will love this!" They even said it wouldn't be a good game played with a traditional controller, and laid out perfectly good reasons why (lack of exploration, shoddy presentation).
I mean, I've seen other quick looks from them, and it is really obvious when a game is engaging and when it sucks. I've seen New Super Mario Bros Wii and I've seen Crimecraft. I'm not going to fault them for "not playing the game long enough" when honestly, with as much as I saw, I would be ready to pass judgment too and not feel the least bit guilty about it.
Well, it's not like the sites that gave it 9's are the most reliable. Never heard of them before.
And Activision didn't send out press copies for reviews, so I would be weary of any sites that put up reviews right away, which most of those sites did.
I'm guessing the sites that gave it 9s allowed Activision to wine and dine them at the stupid release/review event thing.
Well, it's not like the sites that gave it 9's are the most reliable. Never heard of them before.
And Activision didn't send out press copies for reviews, so I would be weary of any sites that put up reviews right away, which most of those sites did.
I'm guessing the sites that gave it 9s allowed Activision to wine and dine them at the stupid release/review event thing.
G4's 1 out of 5 review stated that they were at the 3 hour review event, where they claim to have seen the entire game. Like, all the content. Maybe Activision had fully unlocked saves for them to try out...
Well, it's not like the sites that gave it 9's are the most reliable. Never heard of them before.
And Activision didn't send out press copies for reviews, so I would be weary of any sites that put up reviews right away, which most of those sites did.
I'm guessing the sites that gave it 9s allowed Activision to wine and dine them at the stupid release/review event thing.
G4's 1 out of 5 review stated that they were at the 3 hour review event, where they claim to have seen the entire game. Like, all the content. Maybe Activision had fully unlocked saves for them to try out...
If they're basing the review on that event then I wouldn't trust G4's scores either. Yeah, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in nearly everyone's mouths, but I'd rather people judge the game on its own merits. (Not to mention without Activision reps hovering around helping people and telling them what's cool. Unless an Activision rep is included in the box, that's not an accurate representation of the experience.)
It sounds pretty solid to me but then again there isn't discussion of cool unlockables like a demoness or Wolverine or anything. Of course those sorts of things could just not be in the game, too.
I think they gave the game plenty of time and showed us a fair and balanced take on how a normal person might feel playing this game. That is, having trouble doing the simplest of tricks even in the tutorial, having trouble steering, noticeable lag when performing any action...it really doesn't take long.
I can't imagine someone saying "oh, we were totally wrong, once we got to the advanced stages of the game we were playing like a pro as we did in the old Tony Hawks! Our initial impressions were wrong, everyone will love this!" They even said it wouldn't be a good game played with a traditional controller, and laid out perfectly good reasons why (lack of exploration, shoddy presentation).
really? showed us a fair and balanced take? come on, now I only have a mild interest in this game and not coming from some rabid fanboy standpoint, but you can't honestly say they gave a fair and balanced take in that "quick glimpse" or whatever they called it. They spent the bulk of their time in easy mode where you don't actually do any real skating. And them having trouble doing tricks combined with spending the bulk of their time in easy shows they just don't yet understand the timing or mechanics showed in the hand-plant tutorial section. At first I'm watching and they seem to be following the directions and covering the sensor completely yet the action isn't happening, so they start giving the impression of oh this thing blows and isn't working. Then after a few more tries it turned out to be more of a timing when to do the grab. That is what leads me to believe a bit more time invested may change even their impressions possibly.
We could easily make a video like that with one of the earlier guitar hero games. Set it on easy mode, see that one note coming at you every few seconds and how ungodly boring and lame it is, then start getting into the other issues about input lag or unresponsiveness, etc... yet those games are wonderful.
I mean, I've seen other quick looks from them, and it is really obvious when a game is engaging and when it sucks. I've seen New Super Mario Bros Wii and I've seen Crimecraft. I'm not going to fault them for "not playing the game long enough" when honestly, with as much as I saw, I would be ready to pass judgment too and not feel the least bit guilty about it.
I just joined the site over there and this was the first quick look I've seen. I think I'm more annoyed at how they handled that then anything. First impressions are everything and they've pretty much handed out a death sentence on this one with what I felt not an honest try. I went and read some of those reviews I posted earlier and one of the the bad reviews seemed very level headed, they spent much time learning the game and still disliked it.
cloudeagle I 'm thinking you may be right about the Activision wine and dine though.
LewieP awesome point in the discussion! You sir are a master debater. or maybe the reason in disparity of review scores is that it could be a love it/hate it game?? next time try and add something to the mix instead of being a snarky asshole. Did you watch the video? any comments? played the game?
I think they gave the game plenty of time and showed us a fair and balanced take on how a normal person might feel playing this game. That is, having trouble doing the simplest of tricks even in the tutorial, having trouble steering, noticeable lag when performing any action...it really doesn't take long.
I can't imagine someone saying "oh, we were totally wrong, once we got to the advanced stages of the game we were playing like a pro as we did in the old Tony Hawks! Our initial impressions were wrong, everyone will love this!" They even said it wouldn't be a good game played with a traditional controller, and laid out perfectly good reasons why (lack of exploration, shoddy presentation).
really? showed us a fair and balanced take? come on, now I only have a mild interest in this game and not coming from some rabid fanboy standpoint, but you can't honestly say they gave a fair and balanced take in that "quick glimpse" or whatever they called it. They spent the bulk of their time in easy mode where you don't actually do any real skating. And them having trouble doing tricks combined with spending the bulk of their time in easy shows they just don't yet understand the timing or mechanics showed in the hand-plant tutorial section. At first I'm watching and they seem to be following the directions and covering the sensor completely yet the action isn't happening, so they start giving the impression of oh this thing blows and isn't working. Then after a few more tries it turned out to be more of a timing when to do the grab. That is what leads me to believe a bit more time invested may change even their impressions possibly.
We could easily make a video like that with one of the earlier guitar hero games. Set it on easy mode, see that one note coming at you every few seconds and how ungodly boring and lame it is, then start getting into the other issues about input lag or unresponsiveness, etc... yet those games are wonderful.
When you first played Guitar Hero, what difficulty did you set it at? Cause I put it on Easy, and still had tons and tons of fun. As my skills improved, naturally I moved up difficulties, but it's not like I had less fun on easy when I had no skills.
Same thing with this game. They're giving the same impression you would get if you bought it. I know I would start off on easy, and then move on. And if the game didn't capture my attention in it's first 20 minutes, that's the game's fault, not mine.
Just like LewieP said, people have different opinions. I am of the opinion that they gave it as fair a shake as could be expected. They didn't even quantify their feelings with a number, yet I feel like I have a better idea of the game that I would get from reading a final review.
I don't care that they spent the bulk of their time in easy mode. How is that different from any other game review? You don't really think that every game with multiple difficulties gets played on every level? In fact, most full game reviews get bashed because "they didn't play it in hard mode" when they report that it's too easy or boring. How is it different from reading a review where the reviewer just can't play Guitar Hero on Hard and scores it low because of it? That guy played the full game but might be misrepresenting it just as much as a video showing an average user's experience.
When I see people having problems, I don't immediately expect that "more time with it will solve the issue." My impression is that if they are having this much trouble with something that used to be a simple button press, the game is sure to be full of similar issues. It's not worth taking that extra time to work through the game's shortcomings when you could just bust out THPS3 and be grinding like a pro again.
Posts
Was this posted here? It's like they're not even trying anymore.
That pretty much implies that Activision knows they have a ginormous turkey on their hands, and are hoping to maximize the number of poor fools who buy the game before the reviews come out. Common movie studio tactic when a movie sucks.
American Wasteland was fantastic. Not as a good game, mind you, but as an entertainingly surreal mashup of mediocre skateboarding gameplay, Xtreme attitude, and RPG tropes.
Activision isn't sending out review copies of this one, instead offering journalists the chance to come to a three hour clusterfuck of a review event/festival (which of course everyone turned down).
I keep forgetting American Wasteland exists, actually. It kinda got lost in all the 360 launching.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
Ugh. Do you really do a bunch of your navigation/video-watching from the inside of a T-Mobile Sidekick?
I watched the same earlier today.... that video was awful. They spent like 85% of their time in casual mode where all the steering is done for you.... um WTF? So you are showcasing some motion based controller and you aren't showing us how well the motion is handled?
ok, ok, I know they finally got to that point in the video where they did, but after like 20 minutes of ineptitude and acting like a bunch of oafish clods I was hard pressed to believe it was more lack of skill and experience with the controller than it sucking and being a bad peripheral. That made the video utterly worthless as there was no way to tell if the issue was the user or device.
and what is up with doing the tutorial mode in the video? you are basically giving the worst quick look at this. Uh we didn't spend more than 5 minutes with this thing and the time we did spend was in super easy do nothing mode, so let's learn the device together...
I'd like to see an impression from someone who has spent some time with it and attempted to get good with the device and then tell us the pitfalls of it.
Steam
XBOX
That's what their reviews are for. The quick looks are pretty often just them fumbling around. Give em a couple days to get the review together after actually giving the game some actual play time, and you'll get your much more in-depth review.
If it wasn't possible to enjoy a game with a drastically steep learning curve, we wouldn't have a gigantic PA Dwarf Fortress thread.
There's a highlighted video on XBL about it. And Tony Hawk actually says a marketing line like 'People don't mind buying peripherals to play a game'...
It's a sad, sad thing seeing him shill so hard for this just because his name is on it. If I gave a shit about him or Birdhouse, I'd be tweaked that he can't be in the skate. games.
And is anybody struck by how 'stiff' the lines are? Any footage of any significant run and it seems like the board is on a rail (haha) even when it isn't. And that ghost image trail? Hey! Good idea! Let's distract the player by blocking his already terrible camera view with meaningless graphics!
Man... So sad...
Honestly, it looked like shit in casual and even worse on confident. From Jeff's Twitter posts, it sounds like it doesn't get much better.
Get ready for the successors to the "OMFG Wiimote in my TV!!!" Youtube videos.
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The problem is people have to actually buy Tony Hawk Ride for this to happen. I don't imagine a lot of that happening.
PSN: Corbius
There are a few out, but I can't say how competent they are. G4's review is up. 1/5 and they're extremely disappointed because they like companies that try new things, but don't like it when the things they try utterly fail.
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Dog Plays Tony Hawk: Ride
Probably faked, but still amusing.
again I'd ask, "it looked like shit" or "they looked like shit". I don't think I'd put them down as a reliable source after that initial video. I understand that was a quick glimpse in there, but first impressions are everything and they gave a horrible impression of the game because they didn't yet give the game a chance or learn how to play.
I'd gladly watch a more in depth review from the same guys if they put an honest effort into it.
case in point
http://www.gamerankings.com/xbox360/960208-tony-hawk-ride/index.html
how can multiple sites give it a 9 of 10 and others 5 of 10.... there shouldn't be that big a disparity in the ratings.... I haven't read each of those reviews yet to see why they chose the score, but I'm still leaning with my initial impressions that some reviewers aren't giving this a fair effort yet.
Steam
XBOX
And Activision didn't send out press copies for reviews, so I would be weary of any sites that put up reviews right away, which most of those sites did.
I think they gave the game plenty of time and showed us a fair and balanced take on how a normal person might feel playing this game. That is, having trouble doing the simplest of tricks even in the tutorial, having trouble steering, noticeable lag when performing any action...it really doesn't take long.
I can't imagine someone saying "oh, we were totally wrong, once we got to the advanced stages of the game we were playing like a pro as we did in the old Tony Hawks! Our initial impressions were wrong, everyone will love this!" They even said it wouldn't be a good game played with a traditional controller, and laid out perfectly good reasons why (lack of exploration, shoddy presentation).
I mean, I've seen other quick looks from them, and it is really obvious when a game is engaging and when it sucks. I've seen New Super Mario Bros Wii and I've seen Crimecraft. I'm not going to fault them for "not playing the game long enough" when honestly, with as much as I saw, I would be ready to pass judgment too and not feel the least bit guilty about it.
I'm guessing the sites that gave it 9s allowed Activision to wine and dine them at the stupid release/review event thing.
G4's 1 out of 5 review stated that they were at the 3 hour review event, where they claim to have seen the entire game. Like, all the content. Maybe Activision had fully unlocked saves for them to try out...
If they're basing the review on that event then I wouldn't trust G4's scores either. Yeah, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in nearly everyone's mouths, but I'd rather people judge the game on its own merits. (Not to mention without Activision reps hovering around helping people and telling them what's cool. Unless an Activision rep is included in the box, that's not an accurate representation of the experience.)
http://g4tv.com/games/xbox-360/61892/Tony-Hawk-Ride/review/
It sounds pretty solid to me but then again there isn't discussion of cool unlockables like a demoness or Wolverine or anything. Of course those sorts of things could just not be in the game, too.
really? showed us a fair and balanced take? come on, now I only have a mild interest in this game and not coming from some rabid fanboy standpoint, but you can't honestly say they gave a fair and balanced take in that "quick glimpse" or whatever they called it. They spent the bulk of their time in easy mode where you don't actually do any real skating. And them having trouble doing tricks combined with spending the bulk of their time in easy shows they just don't yet understand the timing or mechanics showed in the hand-plant tutorial section. At first I'm watching and they seem to be following the directions and covering the sensor completely yet the action isn't happening, so they start giving the impression of oh this thing blows and isn't working. Then after a few more tries it turned out to be more of a timing when to do the grab. That is what leads me to believe a bit more time invested may change even their impressions possibly.
We could easily make a video like that with one of the earlier guitar hero games. Set it on easy mode, see that one note coming at you every few seconds and how ungodly boring and lame it is, then start getting into the other issues about input lag or unresponsiveness, etc... yet those games are wonderful.
I just joined the site over there and this was the first quick look I've seen. I think I'm more annoyed at how they handled that then anything. First impressions are everything and they've pretty much handed out a death sentence on this one with what I felt not an honest try. I went and read some of those reviews I posted earlier and one of the the bad reviews seemed very level headed, they spent much time learning the game and still disliked it.
cloudeagle I 'm thinking you may be right about the Activision wine and dine though.
LewieP awesome point in the discussion! You sir are a master debater. or maybe the reason in disparity of review scores is that it could be a love it/hate it game?? next time try and add something to the mix instead of being a snarky asshole. Did you watch the video? any comments? played the game?
Steam
XBOX
When you first played Guitar Hero, what difficulty did you set it at? Cause I put it on Easy, and still had tons and tons of fun. As my skills improved, naturally I moved up difficulties, but it's not like I had less fun on easy when I had no skills.
Same thing with this game. They're giving the same impression you would get if you bought it. I know I would start off on easy, and then move on. And if the game didn't capture my attention in it's first 20 minutes, that's the game's fault, not mine.
I don't care that they spent the bulk of their time in easy mode. How is that different from any other game review? You don't really think that every game with multiple difficulties gets played on every level? In fact, most full game reviews get bashed because "they didn't play it in hard mode" when they report that it's too easy or boring. How is it different from reading a review where the reviewer just can't play Guitar Hero on Hard and scores it low because of it? That guy played the full game but might be misrepresenting it just as much as a video showing an average user's experience.
When I see people having problems, I don't immediately expect that "more time with it will solve the issue." My impression is that if they are having this much trouble with something that used to be a simple button press, the game is sure to be full of similar issues. It's not worth taking that extra time to work through the game's shortcomings when you could just bust out THPS3 and be grinding like a pro again.