KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
Hrm. Trying to remember my votes now. I believe it was:
Uncharted 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
inFamous
The Beatles: Rock Band
Modern Warfare 2
Defense Grid
Flower
Dragon Age: Origins
Borderlands
Plants vs Zombies
Those were definitely the top 10 at any rate, though I'm not 100% about the ordering I went with for slots 4-8. I may be overrating Modern Warfare 2 as its position is based almost entirely on online play, which I don't have as much time in as I would like at this point. I also haven't put in as much time as I would like in DA:O, so it could easily move up or a down a couple of slots. I think revisiting this poll in anywhere from 2-6 months would be quite interesting, as I certainly have to spend more time on some of my inclusions, and may also get to other highly rated games of 2009 that I haven't even played yet by then. It's difficult to fairly judge games that released late in the year when my wife and family insist that I stop buying games at a certain point so as not to spoil Christmas :P
edit: I could also, on any given day depending on mood, flip Batman: AA and inFamous back and forth. Both were great games that turned out much better than I expected and that I could happily return to for another playthrough at any time. On the other hand, neither one comes close to taking Uncharted 2 off its pedestal - that is guaranteed to stay #1 for '09.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Truth be told, I scored it so high on my list because I just really liked the atmosphere, it just had a great feel to it as a whole. Like in most games I won't do the mini-games because they feel like tedious search quests, but it was actually fun in AA.
I especially liked the Spirit of Arkham sidequest and I patted myself on the back when I figured out the final part of it and got the trophy for it.
But Demon's Souls is hard in a way that seems fair. Unlike other games where you die because the controls decide not to respond, or you miss a split-second button push, or the game decides to randomly fuck with you, it never seems like the game's fault when you die in Demon's Souls.
Seems like a fun, intriguing idea so far but good God these are some of the worst fucking controls I've ever seen
how so?
The whole left trigger/right trigger system for blocking and attacking is unresponsive garbage. I assumed attacks and such would be on the face buttons. As it is, trying to get an attack off immediately after a block is a pain in the ass.
Also, anyone that makes R3 the lock-on button should be dragged out into the street and shot in the mouth
Some of the praise for Demon's Souls intrigues me, but then people who like it start attacking people who disliked it with the "well that's just because you're a pussy! This game is for hardcore blah blah" bullshit that Ninja Gaiden had which turns me off completely.
And much like Ninja Gaiden, I'm finding this completely unenjoyable
I did buy it used though, because I was prepared for this. I'll dig into it a little more but chances look good right now that it's being returned this week
But Demon's Souls is hard in a way that seems fair. Unlike other games where you die because the controls decide not to respond, or you miss a split-second button push, or the game decides to randomly fuck with you, it never seems like the game's fault when you die in Demon's Souls.
This is false.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've never been annoyed by Demon's Souls, and I'm very easily annoyed when it comes to "difficult" videogames.
Seems like a fun, intriguing idea so far but good God these are some of the worst fucking controls I've ever seen
how so?
The whole left trigger/right trigger system for blocking and attacking is unresponsive garbage. I assumed attacks and such would be on the face buttons. As it is, trying to get an attack off immediately after a block is a pain in the ass.
Also, anyone that makes R3 the lock-on button should be dragged out into the street and shot in the mouth
Eh? It's easier to have attacking and blocking on the triggers. That way you can use them without taking your thumbs off the sticks. If anything, it makes it easier to pull off an attack right after a block, since you can push the attack button immediately after the block instead of moving your thumb to a different one.
The only issues I've had with Demon's Souls control-wise is that the lock-on is a little unresponsive sometimes, but other than that they're nigh-perfect.
As long as one of them wins I'll be happy. I didn't get 20 games this year though, so it was pretty easy to decide. I expect next year will be a lot tougher with all the sequels coming out.
It was a very good year, but I don't think there were any clear frontrunners. This was the order I went with, and it could just as well be shuffled:
1 - Brütal Legend (360,PS3)
2 - Halo 3: ODST (360)
3 - Punch-Out!! (Wii)
4 - Plants vs. Zombies (PC)
5 - Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack in Time (PS3)
6 - Excitebots: Trick Racing (Wii)
7 - Flower (PS3*)
8 - Left 4 Dead 2 (360,PC)
9 - New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
10 - Excitebike World Rally (Wii*)
11 - Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
It doesn't help that I played Paper Mario and Dead Space for the first time in 2009. Those are so far above any of this year's new releases in my mind that it's hard for the real '09 games to shine.
EDIT: Almost forgot to thank mcc for doing this again. Thank you, kind sir.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
1. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon (PS2)
2. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (DS)
3. Half-Minute Hero (PSP)
4. Prinny: Can I Really Be the Hero? (PSP)
5. DJ Max Fever (PSP)
6. Street Fighter IV (360,PC,PS3)
7. Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Wii)
8. Dissidia: Final Fantasy (PSP)
9. SMT: Persona (PSP)
10. Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier (DS)
11. Bit.Trip Beat (Wii*)
12. Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica (PS2)
13. The Dark Spire (DS)
Hey, cj, if you get a chance you should try Leave Home on XBox Live Indie Games. It's like someone took the Bit.Trip series, mixed it with a sidescrolling shmup, and added heavy amounts of pure awesome to the concoction.
Hence the "if you get a chance." The game's only $3 so find someone with a 360 and offer to buy it for them for half an hour alone with the game. Hey, it's cheaper than an arcade and would be well worth the time & money!
Top 15. I really, really enjoyed RE5 and Red Faction: Guerrilla. Eat Lead, Pokemon Rumble, and 1 vs 100 were all big surprises for me as well; I don't expect to see them on a lot of lists.
1. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (360,PC,PS3)
3. Red Faction: Guerrilla (360,PC,PS3)
4. Halo 3: ODST (360)
5. Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
6. The Beatles: Rock Band (360,PS3,Wii)
7. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
8. Brütal Legend (360,PS3)
9. Street Fighter IV (360,PC,PS3)
10. Tekken 6 (360,PS3,PSP)
11. Scribblenauts (DS)
12. Eat Lead: The Return of Matt Hazard (360,PS3)
13. Henry Hatsworth in the Puzzling Adventure (DS)
14. Pokemon Rumble (Wii*)
15. 1 vs. 100 (360*)
1. Street Fighter IV (360,PC,PS3)
2. Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II (PC)
3. Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
4. Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
5. Dissidia: Final Fantasy (PSP)
6. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
7. Torchlight (PC)
8. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (360,PC,PS3)
10. Left 4 Dead 2 (360,PC)
I'm pretty happy with this list, though I only really worried about my top ten placement.
Street Fighter was the best game I played the most this year by a fairly wide margin and is a great return to the series and easy to get into for new players. I loved the Dawn of War 2 campaign and while I was initially unsold of there being no base building it ended up being fantastic, both by yourself and in co-op.
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
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mntorankusuI'm not sure how to use this thing....Registered Userregular
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
RE5 was my number one, on the same condition. It's incredible with two players.
I enjoyed the game a lot when I played it solo, too, though. I got pretty addicted to unlocking everything and it's the only game I ever got all of the achievements in.
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
RE5 was my number one, on the same condition. It's incredible with two players.
I enjoyed the game a lot when I played it solo, too, though. I got pretty addicted to unlocking everything and it's the only game I ever got all of the achievements in.
Same here. I never played co-op, but I enjoyed it thoroughly simply because of the unlocking. I became the master of unlocking by the end of it, so to speak.
I'm planning to play the new ratchet and clank soon, it probably would have ended up pretty high on the list. I also can't wait for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories to come out here, i know it would have been very high on the list.
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
RE5 was my number one, on the same condition. It's incredible with two players.
I enjoyed the game a lot when I played it solo, too, though. I got pretty addicted to unlocking everything and it's the only game I ever got all of the achievements in.
I didn't play much of RE5 solo, mostly because I didn't want to spoil any of the stuff that'd be happening when I played it with my friend. I'd say it was probably some of the most fun I've ever had playing co-op.
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mntorankusuI'm not sure how to use this thing....Registered Userregular
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
RE5 was my number one, on the same condition. It's incredible with two players.
I enjoyed the game a lot when I played it solo, too, though. I got pretty addicted to unlocking everything and it's the only game I ever got all of the achievements in.
I didn't play much of RE5 solo, mostly because I didn't want to spoil any of the stuff that'd be happening when I played it with my friend. I'd say it was probably some of the most fun I've ever had playing co-op.
Oh, yeah, I hardly played it solo at all until after I beat it in co-op mode. After that, I went back by myself to find all of the medallions and get the achievements and whatnot.
1. Tales of Monkey Island (PC,Wii)
2. Assassin's Creed II (360,PS3)
3. Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
4. Halo Wars (360)
5. Plants vs. Zombies (PC)
6. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
7. Magic: The Gathering - Duels of the Planeswalkers (360*)
8. DJ Hero (360,PS2,PS3,Wii)
9. 1 vs. 100 (360*)
10. South Park Let's Go Tower Defense Play! (360*)
It was a very good year, but I don't think there were any clear frontrunners. This was the order I went with, and it could just as well be shuffled:
1 - Brütal Legend (360,PS3)
2 - Halo 3: ODST (360)
3 - Punch-Out!! (Wii)
4 - Plants vs. Zombies (PC)
5 - Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack in Time (PS3)
6 - Excitebots: Trick Racing (Wii)
7 - Flower (PS3*)
8 - Left 4 Dead 2 (360,PC)
9 - New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
10 - Excitebike World Rally (Wii*)
11 - Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
It doesn't help that I played Paper Mario and Dead Space for the first time in 2009. Those are so far above any of this year's new releases in my mind that it's hard for the real '09 games to shine.
EDIT: Almost forgot to thank mcc for doing this again. Thank you, kind sir.
You enjoy Brutal Legend? I also enjoy Brutal Legend!
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
With Assassin's Creed 2, I've only just beat Carnevale. I don't expect massive gameplay changes or improvements, so I feel secure in placing it pretty high in my list. I haven't seen the ending but I'm mostly aware of what it is and really, a "TWEEST!" shouldn't affect my view of a game that much.
Personally, I'm finding that the second half of the game kind of feels like it's dragging. Enough that I'm starting to doubt that I'm enjoying the game as much as the first. Most of the assassinations themselves haven't been particularly memorable in a while, and the ones that have have been mostly setpieces. Carnevale consists of stand in wench pile -> shoot dude and you aren't even allowed to figure that out on your own. Ezio's story hasn't really gripped me since the end of Florence, and with only the one Desmond sequence (albeit a superb one), I'm pretty hungry for story content and I'm getting to it very slowly. The Truth is about all I've got at the moment. I mean, I love running around all these cities (that and the Desmond bits were why I loved the first game), but I've been doing it now for well over 20 hours and it's wearing a little thin. I need to see if the endgame story content justifies the length.
Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
My list:
1: Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (PS3)
2: Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
3: Red Faction: Guerrilla (360,PC,PS3)
4: Borderlands (360,PC,PS3)
5: Prototype (360,PC,PS3)
6: Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
7: Way of the Samurai 3 (360,PS3)
8: Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
9: The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena (360,PC,PS3)
10: Torchlight (PC)
11: Empire: Total War (PC)
12: Trine (PC,PS3*)
13: Defense Grid (PC)
14: Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II (PC)
15: Scribblenauts (DS)
I didn't play that many games this year
...actually that's lie, I just didn't play that many games from this year
Also, cj, did you play any games not developed in Japan or what
edit: can't believe I forgot about Prototype, one of my favorite games
Hey now, Uncharted 2 is definitely the better game
But Assassin's Creed II is a damn fine game
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
If I recall, Persona 4 got the 'niche' award last year. Not many people voted for it, but most that did voted it #1. I'm looking forward to seeing what gets that.
I'm going to make the bold prediction that the GOTY will be between Uncharted 2 or Assassins Creed 2.
If Uncharted 2 doesn't win in that context there is no justice in this world
As long as it isn't MW2, I'll be happy. I mean, sure I can see it's polished as heck, but it's not even on my list, whereas clearly flawed games like WET and Wheelman are.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
1: Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (PS3)
2: Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
3: Red Faction: Guerrilla (360,PC,PS3)
4: Borderlands (360,PC,PS3)
5: Prototype (360,PC,PS3)
6: Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
7: Way of the Samurai 3 (360,PS3)
8: Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
9: The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena (360,PC,PS3)
10: Torchlight (PC)
11: Empire: Total War (PC)
12: Trine (PC,PS3*)
13: Defense Grid (PC)
14: Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II (PC)
15: Scribblenauts (DS)
I didn't play that many games this year
...actually that's lie, I just didn't play that many games from this year
Also, cj, did you play any games not developed in Japan or what
Made this year? Not really, no. The Witcher's from 08 I think.
I did get Braid just last week.
Besides, most of the killer western games are PS3/360, and I don't own either.
Well, DJ MAX was made in Korea if that counts... probably not.
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Uncharted 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
inFamous
The Beatles: Rock Band
Modern Warfare 2
Defense Grid
Flower
Dragon Age: Origins
Borderlands
Plants vs Zombies
Those were definitely the top 10 at any rate, though I'm not 100% about the ordering I went with for slots 4-8. I may be overrating Modern Warfare 2 as its position is based almost entirely on online play, which I don't have as much time in as I would like at this point. I also haven't put in as much time as I would like in DA:O, so it could easily move up or a down a couple of slots. I think revisiting this poll in anywhere from 2-6 months would be quite interesting, as I certainly have to spend more time on some of my inclusions, and may also get to other highly rated games of 2009 that I haven't even played yet by then. It's difficult to fairly judge games that released late in the year when my wife and family insist that I stop buying games at a certain point so as not to spoil Christmas :P
edit: I could also, on any given day depending on mood, flip Batman: AA and inFamous back and forth. Both were great games that turned out much better than I expected and that I could happily return to for another playthrough at any time. On the other hand, neither one comes close to taking Uncharted 2 off its pedestal - that is guaranteed to stay #1 for '09.
I especially liked the Spirit of Arkham sidequest and I patted myself on the back when I figured out the final part of it and got the trophy for it.
This is false.
how so?
The whole left trigger/right trigger system for blocking and attacking is unresponsive garbage. I assumed attacks and such would be on the face buttons. As it is, trying to get an attack off immediately after a block is a pain in the ass.
Also, anyone that makes R3 the lock-on button should be dragged out into the street and shot in the mouth
I did buy it used though, because I was prepared for this. I'll dig into it a little more but chances look good right now that it's being returned this week
There really weren't many games I can say were favorites this year, kind of disappointing.
edit: actually, wait, shit, were Blazblue and Monster Hunter Freedom Unite on the list? I didn't notice them and they'd definitely be my top picks.
Edit2: looks like Blazblue is on there, I don't know how I missed it before, but no Monster Hunter.
Fair enough.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've never been annoyed by Demon's Souls, and I'm very easily annoyed when it comes to "difficult" videogames.
Eh? It's easier to have attacking and blocking on the triggers. That way you can use them without taking your thumbs off the sticks. If anything, it makes it easier to pull off an attack right after a block, since you can push the attack button immediately after the block instead of moving your thumb to a different one.
The only issues I've had with Demon's Souls control-wise is that the lock-on is a little unresponsive sometimes, but other than that they're nigh-perfect.
As long as one of them wins I'll be happy. I didn't get 20 games this year though, so it was pretty easy to decide. I expect next year will be a lot tougher with all the sequels coming out.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
1 - Brütal Legend (360,PS3)
2 - Halo 3: ODST (360)
3 - Punch-Out!! (Wii)
4 - Plants vs. Zombies (PC)
5 - Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack in Time (PS3)
6 - Excitebots: Trick Racing (Wii)
7 - Flower (PS3*)
8 - Left 4 Dead 2 (360,PC)
9 - New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
10 - Excitebike World Rally (Wii*)
11 - Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
It doesn't help that I played Paper Mario and Dead Space for the first time in 2009. Those are so far above any of this year's new releases in my mind that it's hard for the real '09 games to shine.
EDIT: Almost forgot to thank mcc for doing this again. Thank you, kind sir.
2. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor (DS)
3. Half-Minute Hero (PSP)
4. Prinny: Can I Really Be the Hero? (PSP)
5. DJ Max Fever (PSP)
6. Street Fighter IV (360,PC,PS3)
7. Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Wii)
8. Dissidia: Final Fantasy (PSP)
9. SMT: Persona (PSP)
10. Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier (DS)
11. Bit.Trip Beat (Wii*)
12. Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica (PS2)
13. The Dark Spire (DS)
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
Hence the "if you get a chance." The game's only $3 so find someone with a 360 and offer to buy it for them for half an hour alone with the game. Hey, it's cheaper than an arcade and would be well worth the time & money!
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
1. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (360,PC,PS3)
3. Red Faction: Guerrilla (360,PC,PS3)
4. Halo 3: ODST (360)
5. Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
6. The Beatles: Rock Band (360,PS3,Wii)
7. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
8. Brütal Legend (360,PS3)
9. Street Fighter IV (360,PC,PS3)
10. Tekken 6 (360,PS3,PSP)
11. Scribblenauts (DS)
12. Eat Lead: The Return of Matt Hazard (360,PS3)
13. Henry Hatsworth in the Puzzling Adventure (DS)
14. Pokemon Rumble (Wii*)
15. 1 vs. 100 (360*)
2. Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II (PC)
3. Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
4. Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
5. Dissidia: Final Fantasy (PSP)
6. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
7. Torchlight (PC)
8. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (360,PC,PS3)
10. Left 4 Dead 2 (360,PC)
I'm pretty happy with this list, though I only really worried about my top ten placement.
Street Fighter was the best game I played the most this year by a fairly wide margin and is a great return to the series and easy to get into for new players. I loved the Dawn of War 2 campaign and while I was initially unsold of there being no base building it ended up being fantastic, both by yourself and in co-op.
Resident Evil 5 went on there with the caveat that it only gets that place if you're playing co-op. It slips out of the top ten if you're playing it solo.
RE5 was my number one, on the same condition. It's incredible with two players.
I enjoyed the game a lot when I played it solo, too, though. I got pretty addicted to unlocking everything and it's the only game I ever got all of the achievements in.
Same here. I never played co-op, but I enjoyed it thoroughly simply because of the unlocking. I became the master of unlocking by the end of it, so to speak.
I'm planning to play the new ratchet and clank soon, it probably would have ended up pretty high on the list. I also can't wait for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories to come out here, i know it would have been very high on the list.
PSN:Hakira__
I didn't play much of RE5 solo, mostly because I didn't want to spoil any of the stuff that'd be happening when I played it with my friend. I'd say it was probably some of the most fun I've ever had playing co-op.
Oh, yeah, I hardly played it solo at all until after I beat it in co-op mode. After that, I went back by myself to find all of the medallions and get the achievements and whatnot.
1. Tales of Monkey Island (PC,Wii)
2. Assassin's Creed II (360,PS3)
3. Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
4. Halo Wars (360)
5. Plants vs. Zombies (PC)
6. Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
7. Magic: The Gathering - Duels of the Planeswalkers (360*)
8. DJ Hero (360,PS2,PS3,Wii)
9. 1 vs. 100 (360*)
10. South Park Let's Go Tower Defense Play! (360*)
You enjoy Brutal Legend? I also enjoy Brutal Legend!
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
1: Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (PS3)
2: Batman: Arkham Asylum (360,PC,PS3)
3: Red Faction: Guerrilla (360,PC,PS3)
4: Borderlands (360,PC,PS3)
5: Prototype (360,PC,PS3)
6: Dragon Age: Origins (360,PC,PS3)
7: Way of the Samurai 3 (360,PS3)
8: Resident Evil 5 (360,PC,PS3)
9: The Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena (360,PC,PS3)
10: Torchlight (PC)
11: Empire: Total War (PC)
12: Trine (PC,PS3*)
13: Defense Grid (PC)
14: Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II (PC)
15: Scribblenauts (DS)
I didn't play that many games this year
...actually that's lie, I just didn't play that many games from this year
Also, cj, did you play any games not developed in Japan or what
edit: can't believe I forgot about Prototype, one of my favorite games
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
If Uncharted 2 doesn't win in that context there is no justice in this world
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Too many non-PS3 owners here
Batman's showing up pretty consistently near the tops of lists
But Assassin's Creed II is a damn fine game
As long as it isn't MW2, I'll be happy. I mean, sure I can see it's polished as heck, but it's not even on my list, whereas clearly flawed games like WET and Wheelman are.
Made this year? Not really, no. The Witcher's from 08 I think.
I did get Braid just last week.
Besides, most of the killer western games are PS3/360, and I don't own either.
Well, DJ MAX was made in Korea if that counts... probably not.