I think there were several things off about Avi's visions.
Mainly i think the original trip through the terangreal was to prove that a chief to be or an apprentice could handle the shame of how things changed for them. Likewise, this was to view the worst possible outcome to see if they could live knowing what could happen.
A few things that seemed interesting.
1) There were still channelers in the future. This seems to dismiss the suggested 'randland' where everyone loses there ability to channel and it goes back to a technological society.
2) Any reference to Rand was 'he left us' 'he abandoned us'. Could be referring to him actually dissapearing or he could have died. its unclear. It suggests more his death then his leaving so im assuming this is the future if Rand does not survive Tarmon gidon.
The Seachan only were invading because the Aiel tricked Andor into beliveing they were going to attack. Obviously if this was going to happen in the future, now that Avi knows about it, she could prevent it somehow by simply spreading what she saw and making sure that story survived.
As to the Seachan. I'm reasonably sure that by killing the Empress and her family that Seachan land is now in complete revolt and chaos. I would imagine that the simple knowledge of the former empress being able to channel would be enough to make them rethink the entire suldam idea. There have been several mentions of revolts that occured that had renegade suldam, so The general idea of Suldam is hardly a completely accepted fact. Tuon is on this side of the ocean and I very much doubt any more reinforcements are coming to her. They simply are stretched too thin to really enforce the idea that suddenly people are going to let daughters be taken away to be enslaved.
no matter what Tuon thinks of channelers, she does not have the power she would have had to enforce this. Somethings going to change.
Olver's scene where he reads Verin's letter was very , I have a feeling the poor kid's going to bite it in the next book.
I'm not too happy the Black Tower wasn't really dealt with, besides the fact that almost all the Asha'man and Aes Sedai there have been possessed or compelled in some way. Might be the 13 Mydraal thing that's been hinted at since book 1.
And we still have no idea what Demandred is up to on the eve of the last battle.
Totally agree about Oliver. Nothing good can come of this. He'll get saved at the last moment by someone though. I can't imagine that Sanderson or Jordan will kill off a lovable orphan. P.S. Why didn't the dice or something make Mat open that letter?
And I had the same feeling about the Black Tower. How could we get so little about them in a book named Towers of Midnight? Ridiculous. I would've gladly traded the continued White Tower plotline for BLack Tower or Seachan goodness. The White Tower plotline ended in a nice place in The Gathering Storm.
Doesn't
Towers of Midnight refer to the Aelfinn/Elfinn towers?
Definitely. But sanderson had a blog post or a tweet about how the name encompassed Towers generally. It was thought that this would mean a focus on the Black Tower a well.
If you look in the Glossary, it tells you exactly what the Towers of Midnight are. They're feature in the prologue and never again though.
Just finished this book last night. Two thoughts --
Poor, poor Mat. Olver is going to lead him right back to the Aelfinn.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Looks like I am the only one that understood the revelation to be that Rand didn't include the Aiel in the "Dragon's Peace" because he didn't *think* to include them. Because Avienda herself failed to instill his heritage in him.
Thus every nation, including the Seanchen, were bound towards everlasting peace except for the Aiel, who had no notion of living with peace and inevitably acted as the spark that would cause their own destruction.
To me her visions were of the Christmas Carol variety, i.e. if you don't change something you're going to bring disgrace and destruction to your people.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
Actually the servants are the Aes Sedai and the guardians are the Ashaman.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Is there a well-written, comprehensive summary of what happens in each book somewhere out there? I have absolutely no recollection what happens in Knife of Dreams and would like to pick up the series again, but I seriously have not idea what's going on.
Is there a well-written, comprehensive summary of what happens in each book somewhere out there? I have absolutely no recollection what happens in Knife of Dreams and would like to pick up the series again, but I seriously have not idea what's going on.
I'm annoyed that Jordan/Sanderson killed off Nicola like that. She certainly wasn't my favorite character or anything, but she'd been around for a while, and deserved more than just "hey there's Nicola, whoops she's dead." Her death felt completely pointless. They could've at least had her die saving one of the more important character's lives, or taking one of the Black Ajah with her, or something. Even having Mesaana kill her offhand just to show how powerful the Forsaken was in Tel'aran'rhiod would've been a more meaningful end to the character.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
The end of ToM would suggest that Perrin is the one that died yet lives. Rand would then be the Lions Sword and Mat the spear. Min sees beyond.
Looks like I am the only one that understood the revelation to be that Rand didn't include the Aiel in the "Dragon's Peace" because he didn't *think* to include them. Because Avienda herself failed to instill his heritage in him.
Thus every nation, including the Seanchen, were bound towards everlasting peace except for the Aiel, who had no notion of living with peace and inevitably acted as the spark that would cause their own destruction.
To me her visions were of the Christmas Carol variety, i.e. if you don't change something you're going to bring disgrace and destruction to your people.
The point was made in the book is that she doesn't know if this is a possibility or a certainty, but she's going to try and change it reguardless.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
The end of ToM would suggest that Perrin is the one that died yet lives. Rand would then be the Lions Sword and Mat the spear. Min sees beyond.
Unlikely. If anyone aside from Rand fulfilled that, Mat could the one who is dead yet lives. Part of what the A/Eelfinn told him back in Rhudiean.
The Wise Ones also had a dream of Rand on a boat with three women.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
The end of ToM would suggest that Perrin is the one that died yet lives. Rand would then be the Lions Sword and Mat the spear. Min sees beyond.
I thought the "guardians" were the Ashaman, and the Aes Sedei were the servants. I took it to mean that the Ashaman will be equal in power to the Aes Sedei.
Just checked the glossary, the literal translation of Ashaman is "Guardian" or "Guardians", and Aes Sedei is "servant of all"
I'm annoyed that Jordan/Sanderson killed off Nicola like that. She certainly wasn't my favorite character or anything, but she'd been around for a while, and deserved more than just "hey there's Nicola, whoops she's dead." Her death felt completely pointless. They could've at least had her die saving one of the more important character's lives, or taking one of the Black Ajah with her, or something. Even having Mesaana kill her offhand just to show how powerful the Forsaken was in Tel'aran'rhiod would've been a more meaningful end to the character.
1. Are we *sure* she's dead?
2. The Pattern only has room for one Amyrlin. I always got the impression that Nicola was kind of an understudy, having Egwene finally assume her role and play her part removes the need for Nicola.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
This is a long shot cause im not sure if jordon/sanderson would throw us for that much of a loop...but What if Avi isnt the 'dedicated spear'. Shes 'she who sees beyond'.
Avi is no longer a wielder of the spear. I know Aiel means 'dedicated' so im pretty sure it will be an aiel, however Min doesnt really see the future like Avi just did, she reads the pattern threads.
I know this could easily fit both...however i like to look for alternate meanings in case someone wants to make us go 'ohhhhh' later.
Aviendha's visions had some very telling information about what is to come. Some of the visions are from very far in the future, but there is some evidence that the last two visions are within a generation or two. The only true sense of time we get in these visions is who is alive at the time, and who their parents were, and who has died. When the Aiel first decide to attack the Seanchan, Tuon is dead, her successor is in her place. Rhuarc's son is also alive at this time. This puts us, say, a few decades after Tarmon Gai'don. Combine this with the fact that Elayne, Rand, and Aviendha are all referred to in the past tense, presumably dead. I would expect at least Avi and Elayne to live for centuries after what they learned from the Kin. What happened to them?!
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Anyway, the point is at some time after the Last Battle, Rand and his women are leaving the world of men to its own devices, and what happens after 'teeters on the edge of a blade;' apparently Aviendha has the opportunity to tip the balance.
The end of ToM would suggest that Perrin is the one that died yet lives. Rand would then be the Lions Sword and Mat the spear. Min sees beyond.
Unlikely. If anyone aside from Rand fulfilled that, Mat could the one who is dead yet lives. Part of what the A/Eelfinn told him back in Rhudiean.
The Wise Ones also had a dream of Rand on a boat with three women.
The prophesy at the end of ToM suggests strongly that Perrin will be killed and then continue fighting the last battle in the dream world. Ill see if I can find the thing.
By the way, some great symbolism that finally came to full fruition in TOM
The three Ta'veren are all now fully analogous to 3 Norse gods.
Odin- Mat who goes through nearly everything Odin does, including losing an eye to gain knowledge and being hanged under the tree of life. Not to mention his raven motif and the Inscription on his Ashendari having both 'thought' and 'memory' under the pair of ravens.
Thor- Perrin who literally forged Mjollnir and has quite a bit of the berserker in him.
Baldur- Rand who lost his hand and who's death will bring about Ragnarok, the final battle
I like the little touches here as parallels can be drawn between them and numerous other mythological figures too as befits the motif of legends fading into myth and the details becoming distorted over time. It was really cool to see so many explicit Norse shout outs in this book though as it lines up with the mythology of WoT really well.
I'm annoyed that Jordan/Sanderson killed off Nicola like that. She certainly wasn't my favorite character or anything, but she'd been around for a while, and deserved more than just "hey there's Nicola, whoops she's dead." Her death felt completely pointless. They could've at least had her die saving one of the more important character's lives, or taking one of the Black Ajah with her, or something. Even having Mesaana kill her offhand just to show how powerful the Forsaken was in Tel'aran'rhiod would've been a more meaningful end to the character.
1. Are we *sure* she's dead?
2. The Pattern only has room for one Amyrlin. I always got the impression that Nicola was kind of an understudy, having Egwene finally assume her role and play her part removes the need for Nicola.
I think we can be pretty sure she's dead. Egwene would've had the sisters' corpses taken care of after the dream fight in the Tower, and there would have been something in her later chapters if Nicola was found to be alive or gone.
Well at least we know what Demandreds been up too. I figured they were from shara.
Yeah, seems like a decent assumption.
They could also be Shaido or Brotherless that got taken by the shadow and converted. Also, the Aiel have been sending their channelers into the Blight for a long time, they would be vulnerable to the 13x13 rule and thus could be who we are dealing with.
Another open question: Who was the male channeler using the portal stone against Perrin? Could that have been Demandred? Would seem weird for him to be working with Graendal, perhaps she took an Asha'man or two as one of her pets and used them?
Well at least we know what Demandreds been up too. I figured they were from shara.
Yeah, seems like a decent assumption.
They could also be Shaido or Brotherless that got taken by the shadow and converted. Also, the Aiel have been sending their channelers into the Blight for a long time, they would be vulnerable to the 13x13 rule and thus could be who we are dealing with.
Another open question: Who was the male channeler using the portal stone against Perrin? Could that have been Demandred? Would seem weird for him to be working with Graendal, perhaps she took an Asha'man or two as one of her pets and used them?
There was a chapter that referred to one of her 'pets' being used in springing a trap. It was probably that guy, but that doesn't give any more clues to his actual identity.
Is there a well-written, comprehensive summary of what happens in each book somewhere out there? I have absolutely no recollection what happens in Knife of Dreams and would like to pick up the series again, but I seriously have not idea what's going on.
New topic: Does anyone else think that Rand, instead of wanting to break the DO free via the seal breakage, merely wanted to poke the bee hive in order to light a fire under humanity's lazy butt in order to gather their collective forces for the Last Battle?
New topic: Does anyone else think that Rand, instead of wanting to break the DO free via the seal breakage, merely wanted to poke the bee hive in order to light a fire under humanity's lazy butt in order to gather their collective forces for the Last Battle?
No I'm pretty sure he's quite serious, and quite right. After all, they sent a gholam just to kill that one guy that was doing research for him about it, so he was clearly on the right track.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
New topic: Does anyone else think that Rand, instead of wanting to break the DO free via the seal breakage, merely wanted to poke the bee hive in order to light a fire under humanity's lazy butt in order to gather their collective forces for the Last Battle?
No I'm pretty sure he's quite serious, and quite right. After all, they sent a gholam just to kill that one guy that was doing research for him about it, so he was clearly on the right track.
Serious or not, he didn't have to go up to the one person with the power to gather the armies of the world and announce his intentions. He knew Egwene was both stubborn and ignorant enough to assume his plan was insanity and thus try to stop him. No one else has that kind of gall, or that kind of power.
New topic: Does anyone else think that Rand, instead of wanting to break the DO free via the seal breakage, merely wanted to poke the bee hive in order to light a fire under humanity's lazy butt in order to gather their collective forces for the Last Battle?
No I'm pretty sure he's quite serious, and quite right. After all, they sent a gholam just to kill that one guy that was doing research for him about it, so he was clearly on the right track.
To that:
While i agree its what he plans to do, hes also doing just that (Gathering the people). Not only is he gathering, hes got all the rulers in the same place. Hes going to get them all in the same room, use his taveren nature to say 'These arent the seals you dont want me to break' with a wave of his hand. and suddenly it will seem like a good idea.
Then he breaks them and they invade. I also assume that the ogier are going to be waiting for him at that meeting as well. Was odd to have Loial open the book like he did then not show up at all.
I'm a little confused on the timeline within Towers of Midnight so far. I'm only about 200 pages in, but there are two inconsistencies that I've already noticed. I'm hoping that I can ask about them without spoilering myself or others, or maybe someone can just point out that I'm wrong to be confused.
First:
Elayne's first POV mentions her feeling Rand to be out west, possibly in Arad Doman, and includes her feeling the typical terrible things that women who have bonded him felt before his epiphany/re-awakening at the end of Gathering Storm. Both Rand's location and her interpretation of his mood seemed out of place given that Rand should be feeling great and be either east of her in Tar Valon or south of her in Tear at that point.
Second:
Tam al'Thor is with Perrin out in the wild during his parley with the Whitecloak army in one chapter, and a few chapters later appears in Tear for a reunion with Rand. I had to stop at that point to get back to work (which I should probably get going on), but Tam seems to be in two places at once. Impostor with Perrin's group?
If the answers are "read and find out" that's great. Otherwise, can someone straighten out my confusion?
Well reading and finding out wont really come out and say it, but it will mention some places where the different storyline timelines merge. Apparently the perrin story was mostly overlapping most of the second half of the last book, but it was too long to include in that volume. I'm not really spoilering anything, and it doesnt affect the story, just continue the read and keep in mind that perrin/mats and rands tales are being told as close as they can make it for full readability, but they arent exactly synched with each other.
I was confused at first as well, but realize now that it would have been very annoying had they broken up the stories just so the timeline could be perfectly consistant.
It's easier if you pretend that the events of The Gathering Storm and certain parts of The Towers of Midnight (pretty much everything but Rand & Egwene's arcs in ToM) occur at the same time. They're both telling a story that starts on the same day. You just heard about Rand and Egwene's activities first, a year ago. Now you're hearing about what the others did while you were paying attention to Rand. But you're also hearing about Rand's continuing adventures in the same book. It's definitely confusing.
Eventually, Mat, Perrin, and Elayne catch up with the Rand/Egwene story arcs.
Re: Tam
Eventually, Tam will leave Perrin's group to go meet with Psycho-Rand. He'll then return to Perrin after he's met New-Rand and done some recruiting in the Two Rivers.
Thanks guys, that saves me from inventing more wild theories as I go to make everything mesh. Until now, I was legitimately considering:
A forsaken is posing as Tam, and doing absolutely nothing productive with it, OR
The pattern is fraying so badly that time is breaking down, and Sanderson is conveying this somehow, a la those weird Rand/Mat traveling on a road chapters from the first book.
I had considered the movement of chapters between books for editing purposes, but since it didn't answer all of my questions and wasn't batshit insane, I was going to proceed with the above craziness.
Best part of the book: (if you havent finished DO NOT READ)
Rand going all "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" and fucking up a couple of armies.
Also, I want to know more about jain, I suspected noam was jain, but how has he lived so long? why? has he been just wandering the world? why did he travel with mat? Why has rand only gathered people from the immediate area, when there are places beyond the 3 fold land that could provide more troops?
I am a little disappointed they went with the almost standard "prophecies of the dark". Seems almost too formal a war between the pattern and the dark one, as opposed to the dark one being an element of chaos in the pattern
Best part of the book: (if you havent finished DO NOT READ)
Rand going all "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" and fucking up a couple of armies.
Also, I want to know more about jain, I suspected noam was jain, but how has he lived so long? why? has he been just wandering the world? why did he travel with mat? Why has rand only gathered people from the immediate area, when there are places beyond the 3 fold land that could provide more troops?
I am a little disappointed they went with the almost standard "prophecies of the dark". Seems almost too formal a war between the pattern and the dark one, as opposed to the dark one being an element of chaos in the pattern
Jain was at some point directly co-opted by Ishamael. He was Malkieri and disappeared twenty years before the story began after releasing his infamous book in which he traveled all over the world. He pops up in the background quite a bit if you pay attention, in The Eye of the World he's the one who went into that Stedding and told the Oiger about The Eye of the World blinding the Dark One. He had some contact with the Aiel as well, possibly even the crazy ones we saw come out of the blight in the epilouge.
Also, Shara, the land beyond the Waste, has already been taken over and thrown into chaos by the Forsaken. Graendael at least had its most recent rulers as her pets and they are super hostile to outsiders anyways, I doubt Rand could have done much good. Seanchan likewise is in full civil war and the Isle of Madmen never developed beyond stone age tech after the Breaking. The Westlands as they are are the only major population centers that are ready for the last battle at all, everywhere else has completely gone to hell
Is there a place I can find good summaries of the books with significant information but not spoilers? I read up through book 8 (Path of Daggers) when it came out originally and I want to pick up the series again and finish it, or at least close to finish since it isn't done 'til next year, but I can't remember everything or everyone from the previous books at this point. I want to pick up at book 9 without having to reread the rest of the series. Please don't tell me that I can just skip some of the books. I want to read all of them.
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A few things that seemed interesting.
1) There were still channelers in the future. This seems to dismiss the suggested 'randland' where everyone loses there ability to channel and it goes back to a technological society.
2) Any reference to Rand was 'he left us' 'he abandoned us'. Could be referring to him actually dissapearing or he could have died. its unclear. It suggests more his death then his leaving so im assuming this is the future if Rand does not survive Tarmon gidon.
The Seachan only were invading because the Aiel tricked Andor into beliveing they were going to attack. Obviously if this was going to happen in the future, now that Avi knows about it, she could prevent it somehow by simply spreading what she saw and making sure that story survived.
As to the Seachan. I'm reasonably sure that by killing the Empress and her family that Seachan land is now in complete revolt and chaos. I would imagine that the simple knowledge of the former empress being able to channel would be enough to make them rethink the entire suldam idea. There have been several mentions of revolts that occured that had renegade suldam, so The general idea of Suldam is hardly a completely accepted fact. Tuon is on this side of the ocean and I very much doubt any more reinforcements are coming to her. They simply are stretched too thin to really enforce the idea that suddenly people are going to let daughters be taken away to be enslaved.
no matter what Tuon thinks of channelers, she does not have the power she would have had to enforce this. Somethings going to change.
If you look in the Glossary, it tells you exactly what the Towers of Midnight are. They're feature in the prologue and never again though.
Aviendha is NOT pregnant going into Tarmon Gai'don, and I doubt that Rand is going to find time to impregnate her before the battle is over. So she lives through Tarmon Gai'don, and so does Rand, but something kills them afterwards?
Looks like I am the only one that understood the revelation to be that Rand didn't include the Aiel in the "Dragon's Peace" because he didn't *think* to include them. Because Avienda herself failed to instill his heritage in him.
Thus every nation, including the Seanchen, were bound towards everlasting peace except for the Aiel, who had no notion of living with peace and inevitably acted as the spark that would cause their own destruction.
To me her visions were of the Christmas Carol variety, i.e. if you don't change something you're going to bring disgrace and destruction to your people.
Remember Nicola's foretelling: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
Elayne, Aviendha, Min. Rand is the one dead yet living. Return is the Seanchan, servants are Aiel (what Da'shain Aiel means), I don't remember what guardians represents. Anyway it's a straightforward Arthurian reference, but I have no clue what will be the analogue to Avalon.
Edit: hmm, looking back I think guardians/servants refers to the white and black towers.
Actually the servants are the Aes Sedai and the guardians are the Ashaman.
Yeah, I tried to ninja-edit that in there. My bad.
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/kod/index.html
Unlikely. If anyone aside from Rand fulfilled that, Mat could the one who is dead yet lives. Part of what the A/Eelfinn told him back in Rhudiean.
The Wise Ones also had a dream of Rand on a boat with three women.
Just checked the glossary, the literal translation of Ashaman is "Guardian" or "Guardians", and Aes Sedei is "servant of all"
Edit - beaten
1. Are we *sure* she's dead?
2. The Pattern only has room for one Amyrlin. I always got the impression that Nicola was kind of an understudy, having Egwene finally assume her role and play her part removes the need for Nicola.
This is a long shot cause im not sure if jordon/sanderson would throw us for that much of a loop...but What if Avi isnt the 'dedicated spear'. Shes 'she who sees beyond'.
Avi is no longer a wielder of the spear. I know Aiel means 'dedicated' so im pretty sure it will be an aiel, however Min doesnt really see the future like Avi just did, she reads the pattern threads.
I know this could easily fit both...however i like to look for alternate meanings in case someone wants to make us go 'ohhhhh' later.
Odin- Mat who goes through nearly everything Odin does, including losing an eye to gain knowledge and being hanged under the tree of life. Not to mention his raven motif and the Inscription on his Ashendari having both 'thought' and 'memory' under the pair of ravens.
Thor- Perrin who literally forged Mjollnir and has quite a bit of the berserker in him.
Baldur- Rand who lost his hand and who's death will bring about Ragnarok, the final battle
I like the little touches here as parallels can be drawn between them and numerous other mythological figures too as befits the motif of legends fading into myth and the details becoming distorted over time. It was really cool to see so many explicit Norse shout outs in this book though as it lines up with the mythology of WoT really well.
Yeah, seems like a decent assumption.
They could also be Shaido or Brotherless that got taken by the shadow and converted. Also, the Aiel have been sending their channelers into the Blight for a long time, they would be vulnerable to the 13x13 rule and thus could be who we are dealing with.
Another open question: Who was the male channeler using the portal stone against Perrin? Could that have been Demandred? Would seem weird for him to be working with Graendal, perhaps she took an Asha'man or two as one of her pets and used them?
Thank you!
Looks like there's copies of the book in digital format floating around the places you'd expect now, and it looks like it was hand-typed.
Did you at least buy a hard copy first?
Because if you didn't I expect people in here won't be happy with you ;o
New topic: Does anyone else think that Rand, instead of wanting to break the DO free via the seal breakage, merely wanted to poke the bee hive in order to light a fire under humanity's lazy butt in order to gather their collective forces for the Last Battle?
Hopefully. I haven't heard back from my friend who was supposed to get me a signed copy last weekend.
Then he breaks them and they invade. I also assume that the ogier are going to be waiting for him at that meeting as well. Was odd to have Loial open the book like he did then not show up at all.
First:
Second:
If the answers are "read and find out" that's great. Otherwise, can someone straighten out my confusion?
I was confused at first as well, but realize now that it would have been very annoying had they broken up the stories just so the timeline could be perfectly consistant.
Also remember that A Gathering Storm had almost no Elayne or Perrin.
Eventually, Mat, Perrin, and Elayne catch up with the Rand/Egwene story arcs.
Re: Tam
The pattern is fraying so badly that time is breaking down, and Sanderson is conveying this somehow, a la those weird Rand/Mat traveling on a road chapters from the first book.
I had considered the movement of chapters between books for editing purposes, but since it didn't answer all of my questions and wasn't batshit insane, I was going to proceed with the above craziness.
Also, I want to know more about jain, I suspected noam was jain, but how has he lived so long? why? has he been just wandering the world? why did he travel with mat? Why has rand only gathered people from the immediate area, when there are places beyond the 3 fold land that could provide more troops?
I am a little disappointed they went with the almost standard "prophecies of the dark". Seems almost too formal a war between the pattern and the dark one, as opposed to the dark one being an element of chaos in the pattern
Also, Shara, the land beyond the Waste, has already been taken over and thrown into chaos by the Forsaken. Graendael at least had its most recent rulers as her pets and they are super hostile to outsiders anyways, I doubt Rand could have done much good. Seanchan likewise is in full civil war and the Isle of Madmen never developed beyond stone age tech after the Breaking. The Westlands as they are are the only major population centers that are ready for the last battle at all, everywhere else has completely gone to hell