It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
To me it symbolizes the despair of the population on this resort and would be appropriate. I also think that they could have easily defended themselves against racism by simply pointing out that suicide is not the same thing as lynching.
The PR staff want to create buzz for Dead Island, I think they knew from the start they were going to create something controversial. After all, as far as violence goes, I think Dead Island takes the cake since I can't think of any other games where you break people's arms with hammers and then laugh maniacally as they flop around. Controversy is actually good for a game like this, the problem, as I said before, is that they had options on the kind of controversy they chose. Their intended controversy was people going "OMG it's a bloody torso, how disgusting!" which is very appropriate for a zombie game, they were caught with their pants down when people reacted to the fact that there's massive titties that are in somewhat pristine condition on an otherwise mutilated torso. It's like that one chick in the Transformers movie looking Victoria Secret perfect in a collapsing building and primping up her makeup. The creepy message here is "mutilate our women all you want, but, for the love of god, leave us their boobies".
See, I never once looked at that and thought of it as suicide, that's an interesting angle. I guess my mind didn't go there because I don't remember too many suicides from the game. It's been a long time, though, so I am probably just forgetting if there were any.
I also didn't immediately make the racism connection, but it wouldn't shock me in the least if the reactionary response was to say it promoted a racist agenda. It would be wrong, stupid and ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.
If it's so hard to understand that I would want someone to tell me in their words why something is what they claim it to be without resorting to saying "it just is!" then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I think a lot of people in here are.
I explained to you why several pages ago, and then asked why you didn't find it problematic at all regardless of semantics because arguing semantics is just a distraction. Mentally replace the word misogyny with whatever related term you're more comfortable with and proceed.
For the record: we are probably making a bigger fuss about this than anyone else, anywhere.
In your view: this issue is irrelevant because a minority is talking about it.
In our view: this issue is relevant because a majority is complicit.
So, are we just not allowed to put boobs in anything anymore? Is that where this is? Should all women in video games be dressed like Eskimos or in a Burqa?
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
The fact that some women are willing to be exploited does not make it okay to exploit them.
So if the statue is zombie bait, does that mean that they are calling the people who are okay with the CE zombies - mindless creatures incapable of higher thought?
so basically, this thread has gone in circles for the last few pages it seems. I'm glad we have rational people here to break down just how insensitive some of y'all are being.
"i'm not offended, and neither are the people in my immediate vicinity! therefore, nothing is wrong!"
and to every person trying to act like the problem is that it's 'just tits', well you should seriously go back and read this ENTIRE THREAD explaining just how wrong that statement is on numerous levels.
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
The fact that some women are willing to be exploited does not make it okay to exploit them.
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
The fact that some women are willing to be exploited does not make it okay to exploit them.
But it's ok for us to watch it right?
If you, personally, are okay with watching a woman be exploited that is your choice, yes.
It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
To me it symbolizes the despair of the population on this resort and would be appropriate. I also think that they could have easily defended themselves against racism by simply pointing out that suicide is not the same thing as lynching.
The PR staff want to create buzz for Dead Island, I think they knew from the start they were going to create something controversial. After all, as far as violence goes, I think Dead Island takes the cake since I can't think of any other games where you break people's arms with hammers and then laugh maniacally as they flop around. Controversy is actually good for a game like this, the problem, as I said before, is that they had options on the kind of controversy they chose. Their intended controversy was people going "OMG it's a bloody torso, how disgusting!" which is very appropriate for a zombie game, they were caught with their pants down when people reacted to the fact that there's massive titties that are in somewhat pristine condition on an otherwise mutilated torso. It's like that one chick in the Transformers movie looking Victoria Secret perfect in a collapsing building and primping up her makeup. The creepy message here is "mutilate our women all you want, but, for the love of god, leave us their boobies".
See, I never once looked at that and thought of it as suicide, that's an interesting angle. I guess my mind didn't go there because I don't remember too many suicides from the game. It's been a long time, though, so I am probably just forgetting if there were any.
I also didn't immediately make the racism connection, but it wouldn't shock me in the least if the reactionary response was to say it promoted a racist agenda. It would be wrong, stupid and ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.
Oh you thought it was a murder? Huh, to me the connection of a hanging is always suicide, unless it's from gallows in which case it's execution. Funny how two people can look at the same thing and see two completely different angles.
Still, I would implore you to look at the statue and notice how the breasts are emphasized and are in pristine condition and how that just kind of goes along with the overabundance of well-chested women we have in all our media that pretty much exist for male enjoyment only. I mean it's one incident, but a drop in a very large pool, an ocean per se, of so many similar incidents like this that maybe you should consider that it is justified for women to be fed up with such stuff.
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Incidentally, Magic Pink, or anyone else, I apologise sincerely if I've come off as offensive or even mysoginistic with my replies.
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
Don't apologize for feeling the way you do. They certainly aren't apologizing for their take on it to those of us with the minority view (not that I expect them to or think they should).
Actually Grinch is being alright and making an effort to understand both sides, but expressing where his personal impression comes from and explaining why. That's far less objectionable than willfully ignoring any and all attempts to explain to you exactly how this thing is misogynistic and how it paints a very poor picture of the games industry. Stop looking for allies.
And stop trying to make me look like I'm a bad guy. I went ASKING for why people thought it was misogynistic. I got ONE reply that was representative of someone's own feelings on it which was a very well written explanation. Everyone else either shouted me down, played the "I call it is and I call you can't argue!" card (Magic Pink) or linked to outside articles explaining it for them. I don't disagree that it paints a poor picture of the games industry. My disagreement lies elsewhere.
You really are not worth replying to anymore. You drum up new reasosn every time someone proves the bullshit you spout that that reason doesn't work anymore because you change the nature of your INCREDIBLY POOR argument. First it was give me proof, then it was give me proof in your own words, then it was you ignoring it anyway, they it was you were only arguing that point because no one else was.
You're the worst sort of elementary school NUH UH NO IT ISN'T and you should fucking know better.
so basically, this thread has gone in circles for the last few pages it seems. I'm glad we have rational people here to break down just how insensitive some of y'all are being.
"i'm not offended, and neither are the people in my immediate vicinity! therefore, nothing is wrong!"
and to every person trying to act like the problem is that it's 'just tits', well you should seriously go back and read this ENTIRE THREAD explaining just how wrong that statement is on numerous levels.
If the opinion that the tit-statue is going to somehow bring down society as we know it because it's a symbol of 'everything wrong with society' has to be shoved down so many peoples throats, it's probably not going to help to read a bunch of posts telling me how disgusting and wrong I am because I don't think it's that big of a deal and people are (as always) going overboard with their opinions.
People might call ME close-minded because I don't agree with them on this particular issue, but I think it is the other way around. I can respect someone else's opinion as different and leave it at that, I don't need to try and forcefully remind them how terribly wrong they are.
So if the statue is zombie bait, does that mean that they are calling the people who are okay with the CE zombies - mindless creatures incapable of higher thought?
Commentary.
That would be clever.
Which is how we know it aint intentional.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
If they pull it, it means they learned and learning is a good thing because it implies that they are capable of change and change, much like learning is a good thing.
...
Italics.
Well that's not true. If they pulled it that doesn't necessarily mean they learned anything from it.
Hypothetical: If they pull the product, realize there was a giant backlash because of it, and stop making products like that because they do not want that kind of backlash anymore, what would you call it.
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Ok, so let us just say it is sexist because people want to believe it's objectifying women.
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
Look, all I am saying is, yeah I see a pair of boobs. Ok? Boobs exist. Women have them. That statue has them. How big could the effects of that ripple possibly be if those people in the water aren't splashing around while at the same time yelling at everyone not to make waves?
oh man, yeah. love me some boobs man. now link me to that one video where the girl is mutilated and has her head cut off, mmmm so good.
If the opinion that the tit-statue is going to somehow bring down society as we know it because it's a symbol of 'everything wrong with society' has to be shoved down so many peoples throats, it's probably not going to help to read a bunch of posts telling me how disgusting and wrong I am because I don't think it's that big of a deal and people are (as always) going overboard with their opinions.
No one thinks that this statue is going to bring down society and the fact that you are willing to casually hyperbolize the other side's opinions is telling about how little of a shit you give about listening to them.
What people think is that this is a very offensive bit of irritating sexism during a time when people are really trying to make their voices heard about being really tired about the casual misogyny exhibited by the manufacturers of their chosen hobby. It is something that makes everyone who has been talking about the treatment of women in online games and the dissonance of female vs male character design for the last few months throw up their hands and go "Come the fuck on guys".
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
Yes, HallowedFaith, everything will suddenly change based on this one incident in a long line of incidents. You have once again managed to look at a nuanced situation and just nail that ludicrous, absurd extreme.
You are the guy yelling about Hitler in health care meetings.
There isn't a fundamental problem with the existence of: porn, fashion models, cosplayers, film. There is a problem with entrenched, gender-based valuation differences that pervade culture and media. Any particular item can be part of the larger problem that produced it, but since the larger problem is an abstract thing that can't be engaged directly, addressing the individual cases it manifests itself in is how you approach it, even though eliminating any individual example by itself will not solve the problem.
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
So you'll reward them for caving to outside pressure to pull an item that a vocal groups deems offensive? Just because they make a marketing decision (and that's exactly what it will be) to save face doesn't negate what they were going to do in the first place, does it? I'm surprised you'd give them the second chance.
If they pull it, it means they learned and learning is a good thing because it implies that they are capable of change and change, much like learning is a good thing.
...
Italics.
Well that's not true. If they pulled it that doesn't necessarily mean they learned anything from it.
Hypothetical: If they pull the product, realize there was a giant backlash because of it, and stop making products like that because they do not want that kind of backlash anymore, what would you call it.
I'm a bit surprised so much focus has been put on the boobies, as opposed to the fact that it looks more like a cartoon landmine victim to me.
I think violence is par for the course in a zombie apocalypse game. It is pretty much expected that the swag would be gory, whatever it was.
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If it's so hard to understand that I would want someone to tell me in their words why something is what they claim it to be without resorting to saying "it just is!" then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I think a lot of people in here are.
I explained to you why several pages ago, and then asked why you didn't find it problematic at all regardless of semantics because arguing semantics is just a distraction. Mentally replace the word misogyny with whatever related term you're more comfortable with and proceed.
For the record: we are probably making a bigger fuss about this than anyone else, anywhere.
In your view: this issue is irrelevant because a minority is talking about it.
In our view: this issue is relevant because a majority is complicit.
I actually read that article earlier this year and it made me realize some disturbing things about my own behavior in the past. So yeah, it's a good read .
so basically, this thread has gone in circles for the last few pages it seems. I'm glad we have rational people here to break down just how insensitive some of y'all are being.
"i'm not offended, and neither are the people in my immediate vicinity! therefore, nothing is wrong!"
and to every person trying to act like the problem is that it's 'just tits', well you should seriously go back and read this ENTIRE THREAD explaining just how wrong that statement is on numerous levels.
If the opinion that the tit-statue is going to somehow bring down society as we know it because it's a symbol of 'everything wrong with society' has to be shoved down so many peoples throats, it's probably not going to help to read a bunch of posts telling me how disgusting and wrong I am because I don't think it's that big of a deal and people are (as always) going overboard with their opinions.
People might call ME close-minded because I don't agree with them on this particular issue, but I think it is the other way around. I can respect someone else's opinion as different and leave it at that, I don't need to try and forcefully remind them how terribly wrong they are.
i've answered a post JUST LIKE THIS about 4 pages ago man, and my response is the same! no one thinks this is the end of times, or the worst thing that ever happened. but just because YOU don't think it's an issue, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.
you're not being close minded by not agreeing with us; you were already close minded and now it's apparent to everyone. i'm not trying to change your opinion, but damn if i won't point out that your opinion makes you look like an asshole.
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
Yes, HallowedFaith, everything will suddenly change based on this one incident in a long line of incidents. You have once again managed to look at a nuanced situation and just nail that ludicrous, absurd extreme.
You are the guy yelling about Hitler in health care meetings.
There isn't a fundamental problem with the existence of: porn, fashion models, cosplayers, film. There is a problem with entrenched, gender-based valuation differences that pervade culture and media. Any particular item can be part of the larger problem that produced it, but since the larger problem is an abstract thing that can't be engaged directly, addressing the individual cases it manifests itself in is how you approach it, even though eliminating any individual example by itself will not solve the problem.
Forest and the trees, man.
To me you still have not shown me a problem except that people are sexually attracted to each other and that is used as a way to market in different directions. That really isn't a problem, it's just being made one by people who want it to stop but can't explain exactly why it is bad except that they think it is.
The reason we aren't apologizing is because our feelings don't create and sustain a society where women are systematically ignored, demeaned, abused, and raped with a shocking degree of frequency.
You and I? We're just observers. We didn't create any of this. Don't imply that I did or that my reaction does. And suggesting that my take on this sustains any of what you said is foolish and insulting.
No individual opinion has ever done anything in the history of the universe. It's when opinions reach a certain degree of dispersion throughout society that they can have an impact. The idea that it's totally okay to portray women as de-limbed slabs of meat with perfect breasts displayed for our consumption is an idea that licenses the creation of things like this statue and things more and less atrocious all throughout the rest of our culture. And it's these things that leads to tangible problems for women. If you think opinions about this issue are literally useless, that they have literally no impact on anything, then you're wasting your time here by typing actual words rather than just mashing your keyboard, because neither what you nor what anyone else thinks will do anything. I suspect what you actually believe is that opinions on this forum can do, at best, one thing, which is convince other people that this statue is okay or not okay. And I think to the degree that you convince people that things like this okay, you're helping to build a society that is worse for women. If you don't think there's a link between "this statue is fine" and the sort of society we have to day and the sort of attitudes the society engenders and the sort of actions that result from this, then whatever, but that's where our disagreement lies and that's why we aren't apologizing for thinking this statue is problematic.
No part of feminism or other arguments about sexism or misogyny rely on the fact that women will always be able to see it with unerring accuracy, because that is obviously not true. What is often most insidious about the misogyny inherent in things like this collector's edition statue is that it doesn't look like misogyny - it just looks like a statue. Women are sometimes better than men at seeing stuff like this, but they aren't always better, and certainly no individual woman is any better than any given man, or any other given woman. If you want to play the "oh look a woman agrees with me I must be right" game I'm pretty confident that we can take our thread on the road to normal women and get responses from horrified women that would outnumber urahonky's wife and those like her by a pretty good margin.
I pointed out something that was funny to me because it was ironic. I didn't close the debate based on a single incident. Chill.
? Re-reading my post, it seems chill enough to me, but even if I were angry I don't see what the point is. It's not ironic that urahonky had to point out the sexism to his wife because urahonky's wife is not a magical sexism detector just because she has two X chromosomes. None of our arguments rely on the idea that women are magical anti-misogyny beacons and to find the story about urahonky's wife ironic you have to have the idea that they are, I think, which as @OneAngryPossum already pointed out is kind of a problematic attitude to have.
Your response to the "outside articles explaining it for them" is what really soured me on you. The petulant attitude of "no, you must explain all of sexism to me" is just so ridiculously inimical to communication and understanding that it's impossible to assume that you're anything other than a troll or just not very bright. Sexism, misogyny, and other issues that feminism addresses are older than recorded history, stupendously complex, and difficult to talk about because the culture we live in rests on numerous assumptions that, although untrue, are conducive to forming conclusions that are completely at odds with traditional, accepted, proven feminist arguments. Without at least a bit of effort on the part of any given person to educate themselves about the issues and understand what's going on, they're almost never going to end up believing anything other than what they already came in believing.
So when someone links you some articles, some tiny little baby steps to take on the long road to understanding, some helpful sources of information to try to grasp why decent human beings should have a problem with this statue, you refuse to read them, throw them back in that person's face, and stomp your foot because you only want your information to be delivered in the form of a Penny Arcade forum post. I had half a mind just to copy and paste the articles into a post and only reveal at the end that they were the articles had been linked, but I suspect it would have been useless - between the post where you rejected the articles and the rest of your posts here, I'm pretty sure you've sealed off parts of your world view from questioning, and nothing I nor anyone else can write on an Internet forum is ever going to open those parts of your mind up.
What you and everyone else seem to be missing from my arguments earlier was that I was explaining why I didn't think it was misogynistic. I expected (obviously foolishly) someone else could at least back up their convictions in their own words as I had done. I am not a troll, I'm sure you've seen my posts elsewhere on this forum as I have seen yours. I'm not going to claim to be particularly bright, but I've been told I am by others (anecdotal). I will admit that I am not the foremost authority on misogyny, but you know what? Neither is anyone else here. I have my take on things, others have theirs. If it's so hard to understand that I would want someone to tell me in their words why something is what they claim it to be without resorting to saying "it just is!" then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I think a lot of people in here are.
For the record: we are probably making a bigger fuss about this than anyone else, anywhere.
It's misogynistic because it sexually objectifies the woman in the statue. In doing so it suggests that what is important about her is how sexually attractive she is to men, specifically, her massive scantily clad tits. The violence against her serves to chop out all the irrelevant parts of her body, but it is careful to miss the important part (her gazongas). The idea is that violence against women isn't a problem (and in fact it's so awesome you want to have a whole statue about it! Because it's so cool!) but it WOULD be a problem if it harmed her sexy bits, because those genuinely matter (unlike, say, her limbs or her head).
Now presumably you don't think the statue says that. And in a way, it doesn't. No statue can ever say that! It's just a statue. They can't really say anything. Alone, that is. They can't say anything alone. But this statue exists in a context, a context that is problematic because of the history of this developer (code in the original build of the game referred to a trait an NPC had, which caused extra damage against men, as "feministwhore"), in the context of the gaming industry (which is massively sexist, a topic discussed in our #1reasonwhy thread), and most importantly in the context of a culture where these kinds of messages are sent by advertising and art constantly, without anyone noticing. Two places you can learn more are this movie and the Killing us Softly series.
Ok, so let us just say it is sexist because people want to believe it's objectifying women.
What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
It seems to me that women have no problem showing off their boobs en-mass for money and I don't think it takes a bunch of guys making boob statues or bikini-clad women in video games to nudge them in that direction. This kind of art doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and it sure as hell won't stop women from taking advantage of their sexual imagery for profit or gain. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are people that think women are 100% guilt-free from using their bodies for gain. The entire human interaction experience is inherently designed around visual-cues and always will be.
How many people upset about sexism in gaming don't have porn on their computer/mobile/whatever? I would be willing to be the number is closer to 0 than 1.
Look, all I am saying is, yeah I see a pair of boobs. Ok? Boobs exist. Women have them. That statue has them. How big could the effects of that ripple possibly be if those people in the water aren't splashing around while at the same time yelling at everyone not to make waves?
oh man, yeah. love me some boobs man. now link me to that one video where the girl is mutilated and has her head cut off, mmmm so good.
yeah that statue is pretty bad, there is no way in hell the PR department did this 'on accident' though. Dead Island stands on 2 pillars: extreme violence and sex. They knew exactly what they were doing, mixing those 2 things is potent, since sex is so secretive and shunned American culture, while we glorify violence.
a woman's torso sporting large undamaged breasts and excessive wounds is exactly what they wanted.
Some people will be offended by the statue, others won't see it, it is all in the eye of the beholder.
How can you hope to understand how the statue could be considered sexist if you won't engage with one of the core principles underlying that judgment?
Because that is forcing me to use judgement that is not my own. I'm not a dullard, I know the perspective that people are approaching it from, but just as people are allowed to see it one way, I am allowed to see it another. It goes both ways. It isn't fair to demand me to see it one way and then tell me I am the problem because I don't agree. There is no communication in that.
One thing that people (like myself) find troublesome with this whole 'tropes in video games' wave is that if you don't see it someone else's way, you're the problem. You're the piece of shit. However I don't see anyone from the 'other' (as if) side willing to make the same accommodations that are demanded of people who disagree.
My opinions are changed when people present reasonable evidence that there is a problem, not when demanded for the sake of demanding.
Btw, no hard feelings. I use extremes to clarify points because when you see a larger problem or situation that may or may not be accurate, it helps to position the realities of the situation at hand. The sky is falling and what-not.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
Oh just be quiet already. Since you're such in love with personal story's and people in your own circle, then I'll tell you mine.
I am female.
I saw the statue and I was immediately offended.
Am I a zombie/gore fan? Not at all, hate the stuff, but normally I'm not offended by zombie games and the like because, whatever, I don't care. Just not for me.
As many, many, people have told you it's an insulting example of the glorification of violence against women in media and kinda insulting to gamers in general. (Boobs and gore! WOO!)
And that's not all! My online gaming friends who are female are ALSO offended. CRAZY RIGHT? Gee, we just must be influenced by our male betters or something.
Give me a break.
I'm going to give you a double response. The first will be sane and rational, the second will be just as abrasive as yours was to me. I'll let you choose your own adventure here:
Rational:
I'm not in love with personal stories or my own circle (well I am when it comes to my circle, but that's to be expected). Thank you for telling me your take on it. I said I was curious and I truly am. When I made that statement, it was coming from a place where I have no knowledge of the gender breakdown of the posters in here and it was assumed that the majority were male. Seeing as we had a lot of male anger going on in here, the anecdotal evidence regarding females was interesting since it was contradictory. So, I wanted to see how it compared with actual opinions in here. I don't think it's crazy at all that your female online friends were also offended. It just proves that some people feel one way and others feel another.
Abrasive:
Girl, slow your role. You don't know me! If you're not a zombie or gore fan and it's not FOR YOU, then why do you even CARE? Damn! And if you were influenced by your male betters, you wouldn't be offended!
Totally written in jest. I don't know why you're so mad at me personally for being curious about the demographic breakdown of offended vs. not, especially among women since that's what we've been talking about, but OK. I will agree that the whole "Boobs, woo!!!" thing is ridiculous, but that's true of just about all marketing. Sex sells, but it doesn't make it not ridiculous.
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MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
One thing I have a hard time understanding. There are quite a few times when I don't see things the way other people do, however I can't think of a reason to take offense to it. Why try pointing out to people that they're wrong about something, and then get offended when their reaction is less-than-pleasant when you poke them in an issue they're clearly passionate about?
If you do not care about the statue, more power to you, but why go and post on a forum that is clearly created for people who want to discuss what they feel is WRONG about the statue? I mean, if you had not made the post, you'd still have your opinion, you'd still be untouched. If you came to try to educate someone on why their opinion is wrong, then you really shouldn't take offense when they educate you right back, right?
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So if the statue is zombie bait, does that mean that they are calling the people who are okay with the CE zombies - mindless creatures incapable of higher thought?
How can you hope to understand how the statue could be considered sexist if you won't engage with one of the core principles underlying that judgment?
Because that is forcing me to use judgement that is not my own. I'm not a dullard, I know the perspective that people are approaching it from, but just as people are allowed to see it one way, I am allowed to see it another. It goes both ways. It isn't fair to demand me to see it one way and then tell me I am the problem because I don't agree. There is no communication in that.
This is 100% true. You can't accept that something like this is sexist without some basic assumptions about what sexism, misogyny, etc. consist of. If you simply refuse to accept certain premises of an argument, the argument will not go through, and nothing we do will make our argument more convincing. I gave an argument above about why the statue is sexist - it was a few sentences long although it ended with links to videos which say a lot more, so it's not quite a short argument. But if you want to contest my argument by pointing out which assumptions/premises you disagree with, go right ahead.
One thing that people (like myself) find troublesome with this whole 'tropes in video games' wave is that if you don't see it someone else's way, you're the problem. You're the piece of shit. However I don't see anyone from the 'other' (as if) side willing to make the same accommodations that are demanded of people who disagree.
What you refer to as "this whole 'tropes in video games' wave" is actually just feminism. Which has been going on for a long time. And yes, you are the problem. Ignorance is the problem. Nobody gets up in the morning and say "I'm going to be misogynistic today" or "hooray for misogyny". This stuff is only problematic because it survives on the backs of everyone's opinions, opinions which in isolation sound perfectly fine.
My opinions are changed when people present reasonable evidence that there is a problem, not when demanded for the sake of demanding.
I urge you to read our #1reasonwhy thread or watch the videos I linked above because those are about the problem. If you don't even think misogyny/sexism is a problem, in gaming or in life in general, then it's understandable why you wouldn't agree with us, but you're honestly at a weird point because you've missed some pretty obvious examples of sexism that you should educate yourself about before you wade into a discussion and start telling us that we are wrong.
Well, I was initially asking how it was sexist as that seemed to be the one thing that didn't make sense to me. I'm aware that people might find it gross, that is just obvious. However when I am met by insults, I tend to find the conversation isn't so much about discussing the points anymore. And for clarification I have not said anyone is wrong. Although clearly people are more than willing to tell me I am.
So Ive read the entire thread, shared my own personal little Dead Island story, and I guess will weigh in proper now.
My biggest problem, and what I feel is the absolute root of all this sexualization/exploitation issue is simply context.
I was thinking today, if that was a clean bust - no gore, no obvious flesh wounds where the head and arms were ripped off - but just a straight up boob statue with big boobs on it, and it was a pre-order bonus for Duke Nukem, would we be this upset? It was an honest question I was thinking about today. The question is not "Would I want it?" or "Would I buy it?" or "Would I agree with it and stand and applaud it?" but, would it generate this much outrage? From myself?
And honestly, if I'm being honest, no, it wouldn't. It would absolutely not be something that would help the public perception of video games, and it wouldn't be something I'd want - but for someone who loves Duke Nukem, it would kind of fit. The breasts are comically large, throw a "DN" necklace on it or something, and there you go. That's what Duke Nukem, for 20ish years, is all about. It's always been about boob jokes. I am fairly certain the actual Duke Nukem collectors edition came with giant BALLS, and I don't remember any outrage over that. Because if you're into Duke Nukem, and you're into that world and you find that kind of humor funny, it fits. It's not right, but it makes some sense. If you've even seen someone else play Duke Nukem, you'd at least "get it".
The huge problem with this comes from the fact it has zero context. At all. People who have played and loved Dead Island don't get it's purpose. It's clearly NOT a zombie, there's no doubt about that. It has no tie whatsoever to the game at all. It literally could be removed and just sold at some terrible store somewhere and no one would ever have any idea it has anything to do with Dead Island. It's not a character from the game, it's not referencing some sort of inside joke that the fans of the game would get, it's not doing anything but just being absurdly offensive for absolutely no reason. To me, it's on par with the sudden "fuck" influx games received once everyone kind of realized they could swear. Only way worse. When the fans of the game itself can't defend it in any way, other than "its a statue", you have a huge problem.
So I mean, that's my two cents really. I find it lazy, offensive and a horrible reinforcement of everything I'd shy away from when I play a game. It continues to glorify an idea and a theme that infects the whole industry, and unfortunately will result in no one being able to tackle anything properly. I have high hopes for Tomb Raider, that the rape scene controversy was simply because it was taken out of context, and that it won't be something handled awfully, and we'll actually see a strong female character, and maybe will be the start of moving in a positive direction.
EDIT: Because this moves fast Ill leave my original post, but I say "simply context" not saying that it isn't a problem - but that the main problem in this specific case of the statue and the outrage it is generating, is the context of it.
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What is the impact from this? Are the hundreds of thousands of women doing porn every month gonna suddenly stop? Are the masses of women that want to be fashion models being forced into their line of work? Victoria Secret gonna close up shop? Cosplay? Film?
Yes, HallowedFaith, everything will suddenly change based on this one incident in a long line of incidents. You have once again managed to look at a nuanced situation and just nail that ludicrous, absurd extreme.
You are the guy yelling about Hitler in health care meetings.
There isn't a fundamental problem with the existence of: porn, fashion models, cosplayers, film. There is a problem with entrenched, gender-based valuation differences that pervade culture and media. Any particular item can be part of the larger problem that produced it, but since the larger problem is an abstract thing that can't be engaged directly, addressing the individual cases it manifests itself in is how you approach it, even though eliminating any individual example by itself will not solve the problem.
Forest and the trees, man.
To me you still have not shown me a problem except that people are sexually attracted to each other and that is used as a way to market in different directions. That really isn't a problem, it's just being made one by people who want it to stop but can't explain exactly why it is bad except that they think it is.
Brushing this off as "people are sexually attracted to each other and that is used as a way to market" is a little glib. The most obvious issue is that this isn't about "people" being sexually attracted to anything, it's about men being attracted to breasts. By only using one kind of "sexiness" to sell the CE, Deep Silver has given the finger to female fans (who, if we believe posters in this thread, exist). Another problem is that by using sex and violence at the same time in the same item (i.e. using sexual violence) to sell something undermines the notion that sexual violence is a bad thing that should make people recoil.
I find it amusing that you had to explain to a woman why something was offensive toward women. I explained in pretty decent detail what the statue was to my wife and her response was "so it's mangled corpse from a game about mangled corpses? That makes sense." I'm curious how many of the people from this thread are females and are offended by this, since so far the anecdotal evidence is pointing towards men making a bigger deal out of it than women.
Oh just be quiet already. Since you're such in love with personal story's and people in your own circle, then I'll tell you mine.
I am female.
I saw the statue and I was immediately offended.
Am I a zombie/gore fan? Not at all, hate the stuff, but normally I'm not offended by zombie games and the like because, whatever, I don't care. Just not for me.
As many, many, people have told you it's an insulting example of the glorification of violence against women in media and kinda insulting to gamers in general. (Boobs and gore! WOO!)
And that's not all! My online gaming friends who are female are ALSO offended. CRAZY RIGHT? Gee, we just must be influenced by our male betters or something.
Give me a break.
I'm going to give you a double response. The first will be sane and rational, the second will be just as abrasive as yours was to me. I'll let you choose your own adventure here:
Rational:
I'm not in love with personal stories or my own circle (well I am when it comes to my circle, but that's to be expected). Thank you for telling me your take on it. I said I was curious and I truly am. When I made that statement, it was coming from a place where I have no knowledge of the gender breakdown of the posters in here and it was assumed that the majority were male. Seeing as we had a lot of male anger going on in here, the anecdotal evidence regarding females was interesting since it was contradictory. So, I wanted to see how it compared with actual opinions in here. I don't think it's crazy at all that your female online friends were also offended. It just proves that some people feel one way and others feel another.
Abrasive:
Girl, slow your role. You don't know me! If you're not a zombie or gore fan and it's not FOR YOU, then why do you even CARE? Damn! And if you were influenced by your male betters, you wouldn't be offended!
Totally written in jest. I don't know why you're so mad at me personally for being curious about the demographic breakdown of offended vs. not, especially among women since that's what we've been talking about, but OK. I will agree that the whole "Boobs, woo!!!" thing is ridiculous, but that's true of just about all marketing. Sex sells, but it doesn't make it not ridiculous.
Epically condescending, but you manage to make it worse by tamping it down with a layer of "totes jokes" and combo'ing it with "only asking questions."
Bravo for being a utterly odious goose.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
I can understand that point. I disagree, but I understand.
Men are attracted to breasts and they are marketed as such.
Women use breasts to attract men and they are also marketed as such. (Victoria secret, push-up bras, low cut shirts, etc)
It goes both ways. Not every instance is going to be 100% equal across the board. It's the same as being upset because a TV show doesn't have enough black people in it and saying it is racism. It's just the way it fell out.
Now when the video game industry stops putting females in strong leads and only places them in the kitchen making my dinners, then I will agree there is a problem. Until then, perhaps some people might be just a bit too sensitive about issues that may or may not actually be issues until someone makes them an issue.
It's not that boobs were present. Breasts are a part of the female anatomy and perfectly natural. The issue here, I believe, is that the statue was pretty much JUST boobs. Overemphasizing them isn't a good thing. It's perfectly understandable that women on an island resort would be wearing bikinis that show off breasts and butts, however, the company had a lot of options on what type of swag to make for a collector's edition, the option they chose, is pretty much a statue of just boobs, which isn't a very good PR move. Personally, I really like Dead Island, and am still playing it, I would absolutely go BONKERS if their swag was that tree with the person hanging from it that's in the title. It would have been edgy and controversial without having such a sexist overtone.
Then people could go on foolishly about racism. That would be a fun one. Actually, I'm surprised that no one ever really mentioned that at all. What does a hanging body have to do with zombies? I so don't care, it doesn't bother me, it's just an oddity.
To me it symbolizes the despair of the population on this resort and would be appropriate. I also think that they could have easily defended themselves against racism by simply pointing out that suicide is not the same thing as lynching.
The PR staff want to create buzz for Dead Island, I think they knew from the start they were going to create something controversial. After all, as far as violence goes, I think Dead Island takes the cake since I can't think of any other games where you break people's arms with hammers and then laugh maniacally as they flop around. Controversy is actually good for a game like this, the problem, as I said before, is that they had options on the kind of controversy they chose. Their intended controversy was people going "OMG it's a bloody torso, how disgusting!" which is very appropriate for a zombie game, they were caught with their pants down when people reacted to the fact that there's massive titties that are in somewhat pristine condition on an otherwise mutilated torso. It's like that one chick in the Transformers movie looking Victoria Secret perfect in a collapsing building and primping up her makeup. The creepy message here is "mutilate our women all you want, but, for the love of god, leave us their boobies".
See, I never once looked at that and thought of it as suicide, that's an interesting angle. I guess my mind didn't go there because I don't remember too many suicides from the game. It's been a long time, though, so I am probably just forgetting if there were any.
I also didn't immediately make the racism connection, but it wouldn't shock me in the least if the reactionary response was to say it promoted a racist agenda. It would be wrong, stupid and ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.
Oh you thought it was a murder? Huh, to me the connection of a hanging is always suicide, unless it's from gallows in which case it's execution. Funny how two people can look at the same thing and see two completely different angles.
Still, I would implore you to look at the statue and notice how the breasts are emphasized and are in pristine condition and how that just kind of goes along with the overabundance of well-chested women we have in all our media that pretty much exist for male enjoyment only. I mean it's one incident, but a drop in a very large pool, an ocean per se, of so many similar incidents like this that maybe you should consider that it is justified for women to be fed up with such stuff.
Actually, if I remember correctly, my friend and I joked about the hanging zombie while playing the game once and coming to the joking conclusion that a zombie got up to some hijinks and found himself in quite the predicament! But it's true, people seeing something like that and having totally differing conclusions as to what it means is interesting.
Trust me, when I first saw the picture of this statue, my eyes went immediately to the "perfect" breasts because how could they not when that's what's being emphasized? I rolled my eyes and thought "typical childish attitude." The dismembering part didn't bother me because of what game it's from/for. Dismemberment and "perfect" (and let me point out that I quoted that word twice because they are far from perfect, opinions and all) breasts were both staples of the first game. I mean, how many times did they recycle that exact female body in that game?
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
When you present a woman who, in her own agency, is willing to take an active (non-coerced) role in making her sexuality exposed there is no problem. Women and men both are allowed to express their sexual freedoms to whatever extent they feel is appropriate, but not be forced to do so under any circumstances.
What we are seeing here is a dismembered female torso, covered in blood and bite marks, with only the sexual organs remaining in tact. All symbols of agency, from limbs to a head, have been gruesomely removed. This object that has been created (and it is an object both in that it is a statue and that it no longer represents a female person but the female organs as an objectified item) is extremely distasteful both because of the grotesque nature of the statue along with the fact that it is deliberately marketed both for shock and sexual objectivity purposes.
The major issue here is not that people are sexually attracted to eachother, but that the sexuality is being robbed from an actual person with self agency and is instead being turned into a fetishes object existing only for the purpose of sex. This is not about a man being attracted to a woman, but is instead a man attracted to a woman's "tits" as you call them. The woman is erased, only the objects of lust remain. And that is unacceptable both as a monetary and social function as this perspective has led to everything from physical oppression of women and the perspective of female inferiority, to unhealthy physical image amongst our female populations.
The difference between this as a perspective versus fact argument, as you are presenting, is that your perspective still robs human agency from women by holding sexuality as objectification rather than an act of mutual consent. This statue is a woman robbed of her personhood, both by the obvious mutilation and by the intent to reduce femininity simply to a biki-clad torso.
And that doesn't even begin to go into the implied violence and brutality such dismemberment encourages as a object of fetish.
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See, I never once looked at that and thought of it as suicide, that's an interesting angle. I guess my mind didn't go there because I don't remember too many suicides from the game. It's been a long time, though, so I am probably just forgetting if there were any.
I also didn't immediately make the racism connection, but it wouldn't shock me in the least if the reactionary response was to say it promoted a racist agenda. It would be wrong, stupid and ridiculous, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.
I could also just see a statue.
I explained to you why several pages ago, and then asked why you didn't find it problematic at all regardless of semantics because arguing semantics is just a distraction. Mentally replace the word misogyny with whatever related term you're more comfortable with and proceed.
In your view: this issue is irrelevant because a minority is talking about it.
In our view: this issue is relevant because a majority is complicit.
Aside, you might find this interesting: I Was A Teenage Sexist.
(Edit: Fix link.)
This is idiotic. Don't do this.
The fact that some women are willing to be exploited does not make it okay to exploit them.
Commentary.
"i'm not offended, and neither are the people in my immediate vicinity! therefore, nothing is wrong!"
and to every person trying to act like the problem is that it's 'just tits', well you should seriously go back and read this ENTIRE THREAD explaining just how wrong that statement is on numerous levels.
But it's ok for us to watch it right?
If you, personally, are okay with watching a woman be exploited that is your choice, yes.
and they say innovation is dead
Oh you thought it was a murder? Huh, to me the connection of a hanging is always suicide, unless it's from gallows in which case it's execution. Funny how two people can look at the same thing and see two completely different angles.
Still, I would implore you to look at the statue and notice how the breasts are emphasized and are in pristine condition and how that just kind of goes along with the overabundance of well-chested women we have in all our media that pretty much exist for male enjoyment only. I mean it's one incident, but a drop in a very large pool, an ocean per se, of so many similar incidents like this that maybe you should consider that it is justified for women to be fed up with such stuff.
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You really are not worth replying to anymore. You drum up new reasosn every time someone proves the bullshit you spout that that reason doesn't work anymore because you change the nature of your INCREDIBLY POOR argument. First it was give me proof, then it was give me proof in your own words, then it was you ignoring it anyway, they it was you were only arguing that point because no one else was.
You're the worst sort of elementary school NUH UH NO IT ISN'T and you should fucking know better.
If the opinion that the tit-statue is going to somehow bring down society as we know it because it's a symbol of 'everything wrong with society' has to be shoved down so many peoples throats, it's probably not going to help to read a bunch of posts telling me how disgusting and wrong I am because I don't think it's that big of a deal and people are (as always) going overboard with their opinions.
People might call ME close-minded because I don't agree with them on this particular issue, but I think it is the other way around. I can respect someone else's opinion as different and leave it at that, I don't need to try and forcefully remind them how terribly wrong they are.
That would be clever.
Which is how we know it aint intentional.
Hypothetical: If they pull the product, realize there was a giant backlash because of it, and stop making products like that because they do not want that kind of backlash anymore, what would you call it.
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oh man, yeah. love me some boobs man. now link me to that one video where the girl is mutilated and has her head cut off, mmmm so good.
No one thinks that this statue is going to bring down society and the fact that you are willing to casually hyperbolize the other side's opinions is telling about how little of a shit you give about listening to them.
What people think is that this is a very offensive bit of irritating sexism during a time when people are really trying to make their voices heard about being really tired about the casual misogyny exhibited by the manufacturers of their chosen hobby. It is something that makes everyone who has been talking about the treatment of women in online games and the dissonance of female vs male character design for the last few months throw up their hands and go "Come the fuck on guys".
Yes, HallowedFaith, everything will suddenly change based on this one incident in a long line of incidents. You have once again managed to look at a nuanced situation and just nail that ludicrous, absurd extreme.
You are the guy yelling about Hitler in health care meetings.
There isn't a fundamental problem with the existence of: porn, fashion models, cosplayers, film. There is a problem with entrenched, gender-based valuation differences that pervade culture and media. Any particular item can be part of the larger problem that produced it, but since the larger problem is an abstract thing that can't be engaged directly, addressing the individual cases it manifests itself in is how you approach it, even though eliminating any individual example by itself will not solve the problem.
Forest and the trees, man.
Profit rescue.
How can you hope to understand how the statue could be considered sexist if you won't engage with one of the core principles underlying that judgment?
I think violence is par for the course in a zombie apocalypse game. It is pretty much expected that the swag would be gory, whatever it was.
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Your link didn't work as intended, so here it is again. I Was A Teenage Sexist.[/quote]
I actually read that article earlier this year and it made me realize some disturbing things about my own behavior in the past. So yeah, it's a good read
i've answered a post JUST LIKE THIS about 4 pages ago man, and my response is the same! no one thinks this is the end of times, or the worst thing that ever happened. but just because YOU don't think it's an issue, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.
you're not being close minded by not agreeing with us; you were already close minded and now it's apparent to everyone. i'm not trying to change your opinion, but damn if i won't point out that your opinion makes you look like an asshole.
To me you still have not shown me a problem except that people are sexually attracted to each other and that is used as a way to market in different directions. That really isn't a problem, it's just being made one by people who want it to stop but can't explain exactly why it is bad except that they think it is.
? Re-reading my post, it seems chill enough to me, but even if I were angry I don't see what the point is. It's not ironic that urahonky had to point out the sexism to his wife because urahonky's wife is not a magical sexism detector just because she has two X chromosomes. None of our arguments rely on the idea that women are magical anti-misogyny beacons and to find the story about urahonky's wife ironic you have to have the idea that they are, I think, which as @OneAngryPossum already pointed out is kind of a problematic attitude to have.
It's misogynistic because it sexually objectifies the woman in the statue. In doing so it suggests that what is important about her is how sexually attractive she is to men, specifically, her massive scantily clad tits. The violence against her serves to chop out all the irrelevant parts of her body, but it is careful to miss the important part (her gazongas). The idea is that violence against women isn't a problem (and in fact it's so awesome you want to have a whole statue about it! Because it's so cool!) but it WOULD be a problem if it harmed her sexy bits, because those genuinely matter (unlike, say, her limbs or her head).
Now presumably you don't think the statue says that. And in a way, it doesn't. No statue can ever say that! It's just a statue. They can't really say anything. Alone, that is. They can't say anything alone. But this statue exists in a context, a context that is problematic because of the history of this developer (code in the original build of the game referred to a trait an NPC had, which caused extra damage against men, as "feministwhore"), in the context of the gaming industry (which is massively sexist, a topic discussed in our #1reasonwhy thread), and most importantly in the context of a culture where these kinds of messages are sent by advertising and art constantly, without anyone noticing. Two places you can learn more are this movie and the Killing us Softly series.
I believe that's Piranha 3DD.
a woman's torso sporting large undamaged breasts and excessive wounds is exactly what they wanted.
Some people will be offended by the statue, others won't see it, it is all in the eye of the beholder.
Personally though I think its detestable.
Because that is forcing me to use judgement that is not my own. I'm not a dullard, I know the perspective that people are approaching it from, but just as people are allowed to see it one way, I am allowed to see it another. It goes both ways. It isn't fair to demand me to see it one way and then tell me I am the problem because I don't agree. There is no communication in that.
One thing that people (like myself) find troublesome with this whole 'tropes in video games' wave is that if you don't see it someone else's way, you're the problem. You're the piece of shit. However I don't see anyone from the 'other' (as if) side willing to make the same accommodations that are demanded of people who disagree.
My opinions are changed when people present reasonable evidence that there is a problem, not when demanded for the sake of demanding.
Btw, no hard feelings. I use extremes to clarify points because when you see a larger problem or situation that may or may not be accurate, it helps to position the realities of the situation at hand. The sky is falling and what-not.
I'm going to give you a double response. The first will be sane and rational, the second will be just as abrasive as yours was to me. I'll let you choose your own adventure here:
Rational:
Abrasive:
If you do not care about the statue, more power to you, but why go and post on a forum that is clearly created for people who want to discuss what they feel is WRONG about the statue? I mean, if you had not made the post, you'd still have your opinion, you'd still be untouched. If you came to try to educate someone on why their opinion is wrong, then you really shouldn't take offense when they educate you right back, right?
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Excellent post
What you refer to as "this whole 'tropes in video games' wave" is actually just feminism. Which has been going on for a long time. And yes, you are the problem. Ignorance is the problem. Nobody gets up in the morning and say "I'm going to be misogynistic today" or "hooray for misogyny". This stuff is only problematic because it survives on the backs of everyone's opinions, opinions which in isolation sound perfectly fine.
I urge you to read our #1reasonwhy thread or watch the videos I linked above because those are about the problem. If you don't even think misogyny/sexism is a problem, in gaming or in life in general, then it's understandable why you wouldn't agree with us, but you're honestly at a weird point because you've missed some pretty obvious examples of sexism that you should educate yourself about before you wade into a discussion and start telling us that we are wrong.
My biggest problem, and what I feel is the absolute root of all this sexualization/exploitation issue is simply context.
I was thinking today, if that was a clean bust - no gore, no obvious flesh wounds where the head and arms were ripped off - but just a straight up boob statue with big boobs on it, and it was a pre-order bonus for Duke Nukem, would we be this upset? It was an honest question I was thinking about today. The question is not "Would I want it?" or "Would I buy it?" or "Would I agree with it and stand and applaud it?" but, would it generate this much outrage? From myself?
And honestly, if I'm being honest, no, it wouldn't. It would absolutely not be something that would help the public perception of video games, and it wouldn't be something I'd want - but for someone who loves Duke Nukem, it would kind of fit. The breasts are comically large, throw a "DN" necklace on it or something, and there you go. That's what Duke Nukem, for 20ish years, is all about. It's always been about boob jokes. I am fairly certain the actual Duke Nukem collectors edition came with giant BALLS, and I don't remember any outrage over that. Because if you're into Duke Nukem, and you're into that world and you find that kind of humor funny, it fits. It's not right, but it makes some sense. If you've even seen someone else play Duke Nukem, you'd at least "get it".
The huge problem with this comes from the fact it has zero context. At all. People who have played and loved Dead Island don't get it's purpose. It's clearly NOT a zombie, there's no doubt about that. It has no tie whatsoever to the game at all. It literally could be removed and just sold at some terrible store somewhere and no one would ever have any idea it has anything to do with Dead Island. It's not a character from the game, it's not referencing some sort of inside joke that the fans of the game would get, it's not doing anything but just being absurdly offensive for absolutely no reason. To me, it's on par with the sudden "fuck" influx games received once everyone kind of realized they could swear. Only way worse. When the fans of the game itself can't defend it in any way, other than "its a statue", you have a huge problem.
So I mean, that's my two cents really. I find it lazy, offensive and a horrible reinforcement of everything I'd shy away from when I play a game. It continues to glorify an idea and a theme that infects the whole industry, and unfortunately will result in no one being able to tackle anything properly. I have high hopes for Tomb Raider, that the rape scene controversy was simply because it was taken out of context, and that it won't be something handled awfully, and we'll actually see a strong female character, and maybe will be the start of moving in a positive direction.
EDIT: Because this moves fast Ill leave my original post, but I say "simply context" not saying that it isn't a problem - but that the main problem in this specific case of the statue and the outrage it is generating, is the context of it.
Brushing this off as "people are sexually attracted to each other and that is used as a way to market" is a little glib. The most obvious issue is that this isn't about "people" being sexually attracted to anything, it's about men being attracted to breasts. By only using one kind of "sexiness" to sell the CE, Deep Silver has given the finger to female fans (who, if we believe posters in this thread, exist). Another problem is that by using sex and violence at the same time in the same item (i.e. using sexual violence) to sell something undermines the notion that sexual violence is a bad thing that should make people recoil.
Epically condescending, but you manage to make it worse by tamping it down with a layer of "totes jokes" and combo'ing it with "only asking questions."
Bravo for being a utterly odious goose.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Men are attracted to breasts and they are marketed as such.
Women use breasts to attract men and they are also marketed as such. (Victoria secret, push-up bras, low cut shirts, etc)
It goes both ways. Not every instance is going to be 100% equal across the board. It's the same as being upset because a TV show doesn't have enough black people in it and saying it is racism. It's just the way it fell out.
Now when the video game industry stops putting females in strong leads and only places them in the kitchen making my dinners, then I will agree there is a problem. Until then, perhaps some people might be just a bit too sensitive about issues that may or may not actually be issues until someone makes them an issue.
Actually, if I remember correctly, my friend and I joked about the hanging zombie while playing the game once and coming to the joking conclusion that a zombie got up to some hijinks and found himself in quite the predicament! But it's true, people seeing something like that and having totally differing conclusions as to what it means is interesting.
Trust me, when I first saw the picture of this statue, my eyes went immediately to the "perfect" breasts because how could they not when that's what's being emphasized? I rolled my eyes and thought "typical childish attitude." The dismembering part didn't bother me because of what game it's from/for. Dismemberment and "perfect" (and let me point out that I quoted that word twice because they are far from perfect, opinions and all) breasts were both staples of the first game. I mean, how many times did they recycle that exact female body in that game?
When you present a woman who, in her own agency, is willing to take an active (non-coerced) role in making her sexuality exposed there is no problem. Women and men both are allowed to express their sexual freedoms to whatever extent they feel is appropriate, but not be forced to do so under any circumstances.
What we are seeing here is a dismembered female torso, covered in blood and bite marks, with only the sexual organs remaining in tact. All symbols of agency, from limbs to a head, have been gruesomely removed. This object that has been created (and it is an object both in that it is a statue and that it no longer represents a female person but the female organs as an objectified item) is extremely distasteful both because of the grotesque nature of the statue along with the fact that it is deliberately marketed both for shock and sexual objectivity purposes.
The major issue here is not that people are sexually attracted to eachother, but that the sexuality is being robbed from an actual person with self agency and is instead being turned into a fetishes object existing only for the purpose of sex. This is not about a man being attracted to a woman, but is instead a man attracted to a woman's "tits" as you call them. The woman is erased, only the objects of lust remain. And that is unacceptable both as a monetary and social function as this perspective has led to everything from physical oppression of women and the perspective of female inferiority, to unhealthy physical image amongst our female populations.
The difference between this as a perspective versus fact argument, as you are presenting, is that your perspective still robs human agency from women by holding sexuality as objectification rather than an act of mutual consent. This statue is a woman robbed of her personhood, both by the obvious mutilation and by the intent to reduce femininity simply to a biki-clad torso.
And that doesn't even begin to go into the implied violence and brutality such dismemberment encourages as a object of fetish.