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Enough is enough - Social engineering among our peers [Flappy Bird]

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Posts

  • programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    If the $50K/day figures are accurate, while people shouldn't be dicks, I have about zero sympathy for him. I've been actually shot at (often, not just a one time thing) for ~$50K/year, so I'd gladly upgrade to people hurting my feels over the internet for several hundred times that much money.

    Honestly, I'd love to trade places with him.

    So the more income someone has, the more it's okay for people to issue threats and harass?

    It's never okay to issue threats and harass people because you don't like their free game.

    That said, he's still ridiculously lucky, even if he refuses to see it. For someone who does understand the relative importance of being trolled over internet social media, I present Frankie Muniz:

    frankie-muniz-26483816636.jpeg

    Wicked Demiurge in most games. Solacus is my main in GW2.
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    You know nothing about this person's history or reasons for reacting as they do. You are not all people. Some respond differently than others to minor stressors like an unexpected 1000% increase in daily murder threats.

    Care Free BombCambiataRoyceSraphimAvalonGuardMr RaydarleysamzagdrobLoveIsUnityTurkeyErin The RedBobble
  • Care Free BombCare Free Bomb Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Frankie Muniz is also an actor, a job that pretty much guarantees you'll get a lot of attention while "guy who releases a game on iOS" does not, has an agent to deal with all of the shit and discuss how to deal with it, had a much more steady rise to fame, and he started before social media became essential.

    Care Free Bomb on
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  • aerynkellyaerynkelly nothing to see here, move along Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I know this thread was resurrected because of the Flappy Bird incident, but having just read through the whole thing, I have a few comments:

    <3 love this forum, seriously.

    As gamers I think we tend to focus on the vitriol in online gaming communities, but it seems to me like the reason there isn't a clear cut solution to the problem is because it's not a clear cut problem. I think we're dealing with a lot of different, disconnected things, that end up being connected by virtue of the world wide web.

    - There are straight up sociopaths and stalkers out there who use the internet as another medium, but by no means do they limit it to that, or become worse because of online anonymity.

    - I think there are a lot of young kids out there who rage and troll and be total asswads because they just don't know any better. (I think of my younger brother in this - the first time he went online to play COD he was treated to, well, the crap COD is known for. Thankfully I've been very active in his gaming life and was able to teach him that no, that's not right and that's not how you should play. How many young kids starting out don't have someone to tell them it's not right?)

    - Cyber bullying might be mostly kids, but I think there are plenty of adults who do it too. Most of them (just speculation) bully offline too.

    - Then there are adults who should know better, but either enjoy trolling or just don't realize how aggressive they're being. Twitter reminds me of this nearly every day. Someone famous will tweet something to vent their anger, frustration, or just bewilderment, and their legion of followers become instant harassers of whomever was the subject of the famous person's tweet. The subject maybe was a harasser themselves, and maybe the thing they're getting abused for was a tweet like "you should kill yourself" but that doesn't mean they should then be harassed and told to kill themselves. Maybe there's some mob mentality there? I've seen people I've thought to be totally sane get in on the harassing. How do you police something like that?

    I'm sure there's more breakdown that could be found but these are the biggies to me. While speaking up to some of these people will correct their behavior, it's going to be completely ineffective for others. There's going to need to be several approaches to fixing the problem. I think the law definitely needs to be part of it. I think education definitely needs to be part of it. I think the way media handles it, sensationalizes it, also needs to be changed. (Positive reinforcement was mentioned - I think more articles about positive online communities and positive things people are accomplishing online would serve the online community better than stories about hate and rage. That's not to say abuse should be covered up and not talked about - just maybe not made the focus in the way that it is? I don't know, it's a fine line there.) And I think the speaking up when people are being inappropriate has to be part of it too.

    Also, speaking as someone who has been stalked (nothing to do with gaming), law enforcement can't really do much until there's an overwhelming amount of evidence. And that evidence gathering? That's on the victim. It sucks. You have to suffer the harassment and stalking in order to collect said evidence. There is very little protection or support given to the victim. (It blew my mind to read about the swatting, but I also was not surprised in the slightest by the response of the police to not do anything to stop it.) So when anyone, famous or not, is being harassed online and being threatened, it's a very scary thing, and the likelihood of something happening to the harasser is very slim. This, I think more than anything, is what we need to change. I don't think removing anonymity is the way to do that either. I think that hurts the victims more than it does the perpetrators, not to mention what gets opened for thieves (i.e. identity theft), without really deterring the bad guys here.

    I'm sure I had more thoughts, but this post is way long enough as it is.

    aerynkelly on
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    MrMiscreant
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    If the $50K/day figures are accurate, while people shouldn't be dicks, I have about zero sympathy for him. I've been actually shot at (often, not just a one time thing) for ~$50K/year, so I'd gladly upgrade to people hurting my feels over the internet for several hundred times that much money.

    Honestly, I'd love to trade places with him.

    So the more income someone has, the more it's okay for people to issue threats and harass?
    Yeah, Twitter abuse is hard to deal with. I mean it's not like I could just delete the useless app from my phone in 2 seconds and console myself with my hypothetical mountains of cash or anything.

    Frankly I'd happily tolerate a shitload worse than some idiots tweeting threats that I don't even have to read to make my annual salary every single day.
    I can't check tweets anymore, the poors are mad at my massively successful App Store game and I get death threats whether I leave it up or take it down. Guess I'll leave it up and use today's 50k on a bodyguard and a solid gold handgun. #1%problems

    Turning a blind eye to the problem doesn't solve the problem.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    CambiataRoyceSraphimdanxJusticeforPlutoLostNinjaAvalonGuardAegeriLoveIsUnityTurkey
  • programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Henroid wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    If the $50K/day figures are accurate, while people shouldn't be dicks, I have about zero sympathy for him. I've been actually shot at (often, not just a one time thing) for ~$50K/year, so I'd gladly upgrade to people hurting my feels over the internet for several hundred times that much money.

    Honestly, I'd love to trade places with him.

    So the more income someone has, the more it's okay for people to issue threats and harass?
    Yeah, Twitter abuse is hard to deal with. I mean it's not like I could just delete the useless app from my phone in 2 seconds and console myself with my hypothetical mountains of cash or anything.

    Frankly I'd happily tolerate a shitload worse than some idiots tweeting threats that I don't even have to read to make my annual salary every single day.
    I can't check tweets anymore, the poors are mad at my massively successful App Store game and I get death threats whether I leave it up or take it down. Guess I'll leave it up and use today's 50k on a bodyguard and a solid gold handgun. #1%problems

    Turning a blind eye to the problem doesn't solve the problem.

    That's not turning a blind eye, that's fixing the problem entirely.

    Being paid $50K/day to not use twitter is not a bad deal, and I really don't get the arguments that it is. I'm not going to compare that to any actually bad things, because it's literally one of the best jobs in the entire world.

    programjunkie on
    Wicked Demiurge in most games. Solacus is my main in GW2.
    JihadJesusBubby
  • lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular

    "Instead, Dong Nguyen committed the crime of being from Vietnam, where Electronic Arts or Valve or Nintendo do not have a development office."

    ... I'm not sure that completely baseless accusations of racism really elevate discourse on the internet.

    steam_sig.png
    (Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
    ElvenshaeprogramjunkieMrMiscreantApothe0sis
  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    I wouldn't say completely. Or would I, I haven't seen anything looking at his race, but nope, you're right. It is baseless.
    *ignores smoke and grinding gear sounds coming from ears*

  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I just don't understand this Flappy Bird...flap...like, at all. And it feels like a large portion of my familiar corner of the internet is trying to imply that there's been some big transgression or violation of the nature of making a game and distributing it. Like some boundary has been crossed that hasn't already been done to death, hither and yon, by innumerable publishers and developers.

    All I can really infer is that this is a guy who, with a minimal amount of effort, inadvertently managed to make a relatively large amount of money in a very short amount of time, and there's a lot of people who are mad this happened, and that it happened to him for making this particular game. That's about as grave a sin as I can accuse him of, based on what the narrative has been able to provide as it beats its drum. I suppose it's an extremely easy position to take.

    It just comes off as childish, to me. Aren't there any bigger fish to fry?

    Linespider5 on
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    If the $50K/day figures are accurate, while people shouldn't be dicks, I have about zero sympathy for him. I've been actually shot at (often, not just a one time thing) for ~$50K/year, so I'd gladly upgrade to people hurting my feels over the internet for several hundred times that much money.

    Honestly, I'd love to trade places with him.

    So the more income someone has, the more it's okay for people to issue threats and harass?
    Yeah, Twitter abuse is hard to deal with. I mean it's not like I could just delete the useless app from my phone in 2 seconds and console myself with my hypothetical mountains of cash or anything.

    Frankly I'd happily tolerate a shitload worse than some idiots tweeting threats that I don't even have to read to make my annual salary every single day.
    I can't check tweets anymore, the poors are mad at my massively successful App Store game and I get death threats whether I leave it up or take it down. Guess I'll leave it up and use today's 50k on a bodyguard and a solid gold handgun. #1%problems

    Turning a blind eye to the problem doesn't solve the problem.

    That's not turning a blind eye, that's fixing the problem entirely.

    Being paid $50K/day to not use twitter is not a bad deal, and I really don't get the arguments that it is. I'm not going to compare that to any actually bad things, because it's literally one of the best jobs in the entire world.

    Nobody is paying him for the task of not using Twitter. Nobody should be 'chased off' social media either.

    Have you seriously never considered that money doesn't buy happiness? That people - rich or poor - actually have feelings?

    Be careful not to let your personal sentiments get in the way of how everyone "should" act or live. If you don't care about using Twitter that's fine. It doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else, and same goes for people who do use Twitter. Some people engage the net with anonymity, and some do so with their face and name out there. Both ways are fine. But nobody should be forced out of their comfort zone in either case. You're suggesting in a roundabout way that the guy should pick up anonymous identity in order to engage the net. And that is shit. A change in lifestyle because people are harassing you, and you think that's okay?

    That I have to ask someone these questions and point these things out kinda blows my mind. Do you have any empathic capability?

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular

    "Instead, Dong Nguyen committed the crime of being from Vietnam, where Electronic Arts or Valve or Nintendo do not have a development office."

    ... I'm not sure that completely baseless accusations of racism really elevate discourse on the internet.

    I don't understand this.

    Also I was thinking, Vietnam is still pretty hardline communist, no? Who says the guy made it big time?

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    I just don't understand this Flappy Bird...flap...like, at all. And it feels like a large portion of my familiar corner of the internet is trying to imply that there's been some big transgression or violation of the nature of making a game and distributing it. Like some boundary has been crossed that hasn't already been done to death, hither and yon, by innumerable publishers and developers.

    All I can really infer is that this is a guy who, with a minimal amount of effort, inadvertently managed to make a relatively large amount of money in a very short amount of time, and there's a lot of people who are mad this happened, and that it happened to him for making this particular game. That's about as grave a sin as I can accuse him of, based on what the narrative has been able to provide as it beats its drum. I suppose it's an extremely easy position to take.

    It just comes off as childish, to me. Aren't there any bigger fish to fry?

    The funny thing is, even if you just keep the scope focused on the video game industry or whatever cultures surround it, YES, there are bigger fish to fry.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Linespider5
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Yeah, Twitter abuse is hard to deal with. I mean it's not like I could just delete the useless app from my phone in 2 seconds and console myself with my hypothetical mountains of cash or anything.

    Frankly I'd happily tolerate a shitload worse than some idiots tweeting threats that I don't even have to read to make my annual salary every single day.
    I can't check tweets anymore, the poors are mad at my massively successful App Store game and I get death threats whether I leave it up or take it down. Guess I'll leave it up and use today's 50k on a bodyguard and a solid gold handgun. #1%problems

    It's not okay that this guy can not access social media because random people want him to die for stupid reasons. He may be feeling awful because he sees these trolls as people, feels empathy as a person, and realizes he is hated for some entertainment product he created. But we don't know for sure because he hasn't given a reason beyond "I can't deal with this". Interestingly enough, he's human, has thoughts and emotions and has acted on them.

    Just because this guy made a lot of money for a reviled product does not give anyone the right to treat him as subhuman. I know if I was treated that way I would not bother creating anything in that market anymore. Even if I had made people happy, angering people, even trollish, lazy, misdirected anger? I could not bring myself to do it again. I can say, honestly, I would probably react the same way Nguyen did.

    Essentially, bullying is not okay, ever. Ever. EVER. The damage you can cause to someone's psyche for some flippant "kill urself" is incredibly difficult to repair.

    Please stop blaming the victim. Because belive it or not, he IS a victim here. Not that he needs me, some random dude on an internet forum, to defend him, but if we're taking sides, like you are here, I'm standing against you.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    CambiataCommodore75JusticeforPlutoBloodsheedThe SauceDrCongoTurkeyBobble
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited February 2014

    "Instead, Dong Nguyen committed the crime of being from Vietnam, where Electronic Arts or Valve or Nintendo do not have a development office."

    ... I'm not sure that completely baseless accusations of racism really elevate discourse on the internet.

    I don't understand this.

    Also I was thinking, Vietnam is still pretty hardline communist, no? Who says the guy made it big time?

    Vietnam is still a single-party socialist state, but their economy is not. It's kind of a hybrid where some parts are still run in a socialist manner, while others have been privatized (such as, say, high technology/software development) and are basically capitalist. This guy is probably keeping most of the money that Flappy Bird made.

    Dehumanized on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2014
    As far as "just never ever visit Twitter/use social media/go on the internet, PROBLEM SOLVED", that's a pretty ignorant thing to say to an indie developer. Or an indie anything. The reason people like Jonathan Coulton pull in large salaries despite mainstream media outlets having no idea who they are, is in large part because they know how to use social media to their advantage. For less well known talent, social media isn't something they can afford to ignore, IMO.

    Cambiata on
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  • Ov3rchargeOv3rcharge R.I.P. Mass Effect You were dead to me for yearsRegistered User regular
    I can't really see a way to resolve this, shit heads are just going to be shit heads. The best possible thing to do is just weigh in with your voice. Let the devs know that you support them, that their work is appreciated or if you don't actually enjoy it tell them that you appreciate their effort because god knows you can scream and cry from the tallest soapbox in the world and assholes will still get their shits and giggles from being assholes.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular

    "Instead, Dong Nguyen committed the crime of being from Vietnam, where Electronic Arts or Valve or Nintendo do not have a development office."

    ... I'm not sure that completely baseless accusations of racism really elevate discourse on the internet.

    I don't understand this.

    Also I was thinking, Vietnam is still pretty hardline communist, no? Who says the guy made it big time?

    Vietnam is still a single-party socialist state, but their economy is not. It's kind of a hybrid where some parts are still run in a socialist manner, while others have been privatized (such as, say, high technology/software development) and are basically capitalist. This guy is probably keeping most of the money that Flappy Bird made.

    Thamks. I didn't think Vietnam went down the path of (economic) liberalization like China did.

    You learn something new every day.

  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Ov3rcharge wrote: »
    I can't really see a way to resolve this, shit heads are just going to be shit heads. The best possible thing to do is just weigh in with your voice. Let the devs know that you support them, that their work is appreciated or if you don't actually enjoy it tell them that you appreciate their effort because god knows you can scream and cry from the tallest soapbox in the world and assholes will still get their shits and giggles from being assholes.

    You know what works really well? Arresting people who harass and send death threats to others.

    The attitude of "well that's just how it is" is a self fulfilling prophesy. It supports the false idea that doing these things online somehow makes them consequence free so you better just deal with it or get off the internet.

    tevinterpa.jpg
    CambiataElvenshaeMrMiscreant
  • Ov3rchargeOv3rcharge R.I.P. Mass Effect You were dead to me for yearsRegistered User regular
    Ov3rcharge wrote: »
    I can't really see a way to resolve this, shit heads are just going to be shit heads. The best possible thing to do is just weigh in with your voice. Let the devs know that you support them, that their work is appreciated or if you don't actually enjoy it tell them that you appreciate their effort because god knows you can scream and cry from the tallest soapbox in the world and assholes will still get their shits and giggles from being assholes.

    You know what works really well? Arresting people who harass and send death threats to others.

    The attitude of "well that's just how it is" is a self fulfilling prophesy. It supports the false idea that doing these things online somehow makes them consequence free so you better just deal with it or get off the internet.

    From what I had read on this thread I was under the impression that arresting people for things they've said on the Internet was subject to a matter of loopholes. But if it's possible them I'm all for it, lock em up and throw away the key.

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Ov3rcharge wrote: »
    I can't really see a way to resolve this, shit heads are just going to be shit heads. The best possible thing to do is just weigh in with your voice. Let the devs know that you support them, that their work is appreciated or if you don't actually enjoy it tell them that you appreciate their effort because god knows you can scream and cry from the tallest soapbox in the world and assholes will still get their shits and giggles from being assholes.

    You know what works really well? Arresting people who harass and send death threats to others.

    The attitude of "well that's just how it is" is a self fulfilling prophesy. It supports the false idea that doing these things online somehow makes them consequence free so you better just deal with it or get off the internet.

    This is a topic that puts my mind into the kind of loop that makes robots go insane. On the one hand, we jail people for threats and clearly send the message it isn't okay and it stops faster than the slow solution of social adjustment.

    But then it sacrifices anonymity entirely. And there's value and safety that comes with anonymity.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Ov3rcharge wrote: »
    I can't really see a way to resolve this, shit heads are just going to be shit heads. The best possible thing to do is just weigh in with your voice. Let the devs know that you support them, that their work is appreciated or if you don't actually enjoy it tell them that you appreciate their effort because god knows you can scream and cry from the tallest soapbox in the world and assholes will still get their shits and giggles from being assholes.

    You know what works really well? Arresting people who harass and send death threats to others.

    The attitude of "well that's just how it is" is a self fulfilling prophesy. It supports the false idea that doing these things online somehow makes them consequence free so you better just deal with it or get off the internet.

    This is a topic that puts my mind into the kind of loop that makes robots go insane. On the one hand, we jail people for threats and clearly send the message it isn't okay and it stops faster than the slow solution of social adjustment.

    But then it sacrifices anonymity entirely. And there's value and safety that comes with anonymity.

    I'm not sure if the many, many people who receive rape and death threats to themselves and their family from people they cannot identify would agree with the safety part.

    tevinterpa.jpg
    LilnoobsAvalonGuardCambiataElvenshaeKristmas Kthulhu
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    If the $50K/day figures are accurate, while people shouldn't be dicks, I have about zero sympathy for him. I've been actually shot at (often, not just a one time thing) for ~$50K/year, so I'd gladly upgrade to people hurting my feels over the internet for several hundred times that much money.

    Honestly, I'd love to trade places with him.

    So the more income someone has, the more it's okay for people to issue threats and harass?

    It's never okay to issue threats and harass people because you don't like their free game.

    That said, he's still ridiculously lucky, even if he refuses to see it. For someone who does understand the relative importance of being trolled over internet social media, I present Frankie Muniz:

    frankie-muniz-26483816636.jpeg

    He's basically dripping with insecurity. I've seen funny responses to internet trolls, that wasn't one of them.

  • KisidanKisidan Registered User regular
    You sacrifice your privilege of anonymity when you use that privilege to infringe on the right of others to feel safe.

    There's no intrinsic reason to throw away everyone else's anonymity until they, too, abuse it. Lawmakers and law enforcement may push for it because it makes it easier, or for any number of other reasons, but the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

    PreciousBodilyFluidsCambiataElvenshaeMrMiscreantApothe0sis
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Really I feel the biggest step would just be giving social media sites a report/ban system similar to most online games.

    Being on those sites is not a right and while the ban would probably not slow down dedicated idiots making a new account it'd definitely reduce the amount of knee jerk 'you nerfed X thing I use in game, please DIAF' reactions from otherwise kinda stable people.

    Cambiata
  • KisidanKisidan Registered User regular
    I believe that Twitter is planning to implement something like that.

    The issue is the sheer volume of people and messages with that particular service. There are 5,700 tweets sent every second. Staffing that sort of thing would be hugely person-intensive, unless you use an automated system... and then you look at the fun Youtube has been dealing with thanks to their automated systems.

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Can use a crowdsourced system.

    League's seems to work reasonably well and that's on a platform that probably has among the highest volume of reports per day.

  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Any system which relies on the community to police itself will fail because most people are part of the problem and see nothing wrong with the status quo. Pretty much every large positive community was hand-crafted by a small elite with a monopoly on force and the willingness to use it to enforce their morals (i.e. moderators).

    Both LoL and DotA frequently do nothing about innocents getting hurt because the majority of users are racist sexist nationalist and homophobic. At worst the system is used by the bigoted majority to hurt the innocents it is meant to protect. Mob rule is not the answer.

    p.s. democracy is dumb

    Grey Paladin on
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
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  • ShatterShockShatterShock Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'

    ShatterShock on
  • KisidanKisidan Registered User regular
    How about being arrested for threatening to rape or kill them and their family?

    Because you already live in that world, if you do it in the street, over the phone, or through a letter. The internet is just catching up with every other form of communication that exists.

    PreciousBodilyFluidsCambiataTurkeyKristmas Kthulhu
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Any system which relies on the community to police itself will fail because most people are part of the problem and see nothing wrong with the status quo. Pretty much every large positive community was hand-crafted by a small elite with a monopoly on force and the willingness to use it to enforce their morals (i.e. moderators).

    Both LoL and DotA frequently do nothing about innocents getting hurt because the majority of users are racist sexist nationalist and homophobic. At worst the system is used by the bigoted majority to hurt the innocents it is meant to protect. Mob rule is not the answer.

    p.s. democracy is dumb

    Uh, that's a nice rant except the main issue with the tribunal is that it actually overwhelmingly votes to punish. Like 90% punish rate or something once you show up there. Which considering you need pretty consistent reports to be put there means it's probably pretty accurate.

    The majority of people are bad at calling out their own bad behaviour. That doesn't stop them being able to identify obvious cases of it and work as an effective filter. Especially when it's volunteer work so you don't get people blowing through it because they were 'forced' to.

  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'
    Do you think this forum would be more civilized if instead of relying on moderators the users could police themselves via an upvote/downvote system a la reddit, with enough downvotes resulting in the user being banned?
    Any system which relies on the community to police itself will fail because most people are part of the problem and see nothing wrong with the status quo. Pretty much every large positive community was hand-crafted by a small elite with a monopoly on force and the willingness to use it to enforce their morals (i.e. moderators).

    Both LoL and DotA frequently do nothing about innocents getting hurt because the majority of users are racist sexist nationalist and homophobic. At worst the system is used by the bigoted majority to hurt the innocents it is meant to protect. Mob rule is not the answer.

    p.s. democracy is dumb

    Uh, that's a nice rant except the main issue with the tribunal is that it actually overwhelmingly votes to punish. Like 90% punish rate or something once you show up there. Which considering you need pretty consistent reports to be put there means it's probably pretty accurate.

    The majority of people are bad at calling out their own bad behaviour. That doesn't stop them being able to identify obvious cases of it and work as an effective filter. Especially when it's volunteer work so you don't get people blowing through it because they were 'forced' to.
    Here's the thing - the community decides what people should be punished for. Quite frequently the community turns a blind eye to the issues I outlined above. Being consistently reported for something only means you are consistently doing something the community frowns upon. If the community largely approves of being a jerk in certain ways then you are not going to get punished for it. What is considered to be "bad" differs from community to community and pretty much never coincides with the ethos this thread seems to support.

    Grey Paladin on
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.

    "I'm going to kill you" isn't exactly hurting feelings.

    As for Twitter, its system of reporting others is a joke. Just two days ago I witnessed an account made by someone whose purpose was to harass and threaten someone I follow. But the report system wouldn't let me file any harassment or criminal claims because I wasn't the victim.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Cambiata
  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'

    Cool rhetoric bro, but that's not what's being discussed.

    We're talking about actual threats of death and rape, not the occasional "u suck".

    And you can arrest people for threats like that already thankfully! It is not, and should not be ok to tell people you're going to kill their family and pretty much destroy their sense of safety like that. It's just not nearly enforced enough when it comes to online threats.

    tevinterpa.jpg
  • ShatterShockShatterShock Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Kisidan wrote: »
    How about being arrested for threatening to rape or kill them and their family?

    Because you already live in that world, if you do it in the street, over the phone, or through a letter. The internet is just catching up with every other form of communication that exists.

    You can make an argument for pushing back against the casual use of death or rape threats, but taking the world as it is, you would have to accept that the overwhelming, near-total majority of the people who are
    pillorying Nguyen have no intention of acting on their words, and are simply looking for the most hurtful thing they can say to a person who has become the focus of their ire. Even if you ignore the infeasibility of tracking down all of these people putting them before a judge, I could consider the morality of carrying such actions out to be questionable. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that almost everybody here can remember a time in their lives when they said something off color, either out of frustration or a youthful lack of empathy. You likely wouldn't want to face a criminal record because of a lapse in judgement that doesn't represent who you really are as a person.
    Do you think this forum would be more civilized if instead of relying on moderators the users could police themselves via an upvote/downvote system a la reddit, with enough downvotes resulting in the user being banned?

    I think that the great thing about the internet is that people get to vote with their clicks and choose which communities they associate with. Yes, moderators have the power to control what can and cannot be said within the message boards that they control, but they are also responsible to create a legal system that enough people will agree with. Otherwise people will simply move to another website. From that perspective I would liken the internet closer to a democracy than an oligarchy.

    Cool rhetoric bro, but that's not what's being discussed.

    I find your condescending, dismissive attitude to be mildly hurtful and would like you to apply better judgment in the future.

    ShatterShock on
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'
    Do you think this forum would be more civilized if instead of relying on moderators the users could police themselves via an upvote/downvote system a la reddit, with enough downvotes resulting in the user being banned?
    Any system which relies on the community to police itself will fail because most people are part of the problem and see nothing wrong with the status quo. Pretty much every large positive community was hand-crafted by a small elite with a monopoly on force and the willingness to use it to enforce their morals (i.e. moderators).

    Both LoL and DotA frequently do nothing about innocents getting hurt because the majority of users are racist sexist nationalist and homophobic. At worst the system is used by the bigoted majority to hurt the innocents it is meant to protect. Mob rule is not the answer.

    p.s. democracy is dumb

    Uh, that's a nice rant except the main issue with the tribunal is that it actually overwhelmingly votes to punish. Like 90% punish rate or something once you show up there. Which considering you need pretty consistent reports to be put there means it's probably pretty accurate.

    The majority of people are bad at calling out their own bad behaviour. That doesn't stop them being able to identify obvious cases of it and work as an effective filter. Especially when it's volunteer work so you don't get people blowing through it because they were 'forced' to.
    Here's the thing - the community decides what people should be punished for. Quite frequently the community turns a blind eye to the issues I outlined above. Being consistently reported for something only means you are consistently doing something the community frowns upon. If the community largely approves of being a jerk in certain ways then you are not going to get punished for it. What is considered to be "bad" differs from community to community and pretty much never coincides with the ethos this thread seems to support.

    The community does not largely consist of people who consider acting like a jerk okay.

    It's full of people who have different ideas of when the line is crossed but absolutely no one I know would let death threats to strangers be an okay thing.

    Plus I've literally never seen some one go crazy sexist/racist in game and not get everyone universally agreeing to report him for it.

    I think you need to tone down the cynicism and 'all people suck' a bit. Because it's not particularly realistic.

    programjunkieCambiataTychoCelchuuuLostNinja
  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Kisidan wrote: »
    How about being arrested for threatening to rape or kill them and their family?

    Because you already live in that world, if you do it in the street, over the phone, or through a letter. The internet is just catching up with every other form of communication that exists.

    You can make an argument for pushing back against the casual use of death or rape threats, but taking the world as it is, you would have to accept that the overwhelming, near-total majority of the people who are
    pillorying Nguyen have no intention of acting on their words, are are simply looking for the must hurtful thing they can say to a person who has become the focus of their ire. Even if you ignore the infeasibility of tracking down all of these people putting them before a judge, I could consider the morality of carrying such actions out to be questionable. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that almost everybody here can remember a time in their lives when they said something off color, either out of frustration or a youthful lack of empathy. You likely wouldn't want to face a criminal record because of a lapse in judgement that doesn't represent who you really are as a person.

    Sure, I said dumb and even hurtful things as a teenager. But I can safely say that I have never threatened to kill or rape someone. And if I did and the cops became involved and called me and my parents over to talk about it? Maybe a fine? I would look back on that and say that was pretty reasonable. And if adult people are truly vicious and consistent in their threats, as was the case I linked before, I'd think arresting them was a reasonable response too. Not nearly all of these abusers are children.

    Instead of sympathy for the abuser, let's think about the victim who has to live in fear. Who is deathly afraid people might hurt them or their children. Who has to switch their career because they cannot cope with the senseless abuse anymore.

    I'm much more concerned about the right of the victim to live without abuse than I am about the right of the abuser to ruin someone's life.

    tevinterpa.jpg
    Grey PaladinCambiataLostNinjaTurkeyKristmas Kthulhu
  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I think that the great thing about the internet is that people get to vote with their clicks and choose which communities they associate with. Yes, moderators have the power to control what can and cannot be said within the message boards that they control, but they are also responsible to create a legal system that enough people will agree with. Otherwise people will simply move to another website. From that perspective I would liken the internet closer to a democracy than an oligarchy.
    I can see where you're coming from, but isn't the point of making a legal system largely keeping the undesirables out of the community, whatever its size might be? If so, it is not that the users are voting with their feet by not joining a community which does not conforms to their ethos, but that the designers of the community achieve their stated goal by only attracting users of a certain type.
    The community does not largely consist of people who consider acting like a jerk okay.

    It's full of people who have different ideas of when the line is crossed but absolutely no one I know would let death threats to strangers be an okay thing.

    Plus I've literally never seen some one go crazy sexist/racist in game and not get everyone universally agreeing to report him for it.

    I think you need to tone down the cynicism and 'all people suck' a bit. Because it's not particularly realistic.
    It seems like both our experiences and our definitions of what it takes to be a jerk differ drastically. I have certainly seen such things happening, and by and large you are not going to get reported for, say, saying "this is so gay" or another culturally mainstream "adage".

    Saying your opponent's point of view should be toned down because it is "not realistic" isn't very productive to a healthy discussion.

    Grey Paladin on
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
  • darleysamdarleysam UKRegistered User regular
    This whole situation is just stupid. Nintendo didn't invent pipes. I think that Sophie Houlden tweet brilliantly nails the hypocrisy that's been on show over this. So a guy made a game that is really hard and some people like while others don't. It's only gotten this popular because everyone was talking about it, and it's like the rage from the angry people has only spread this game further, and now they're angry that their endless protestations have only made it more popular, meanwhile the guy who made it kind of gets fed up at being crucified for daring to 'step on our turf, bro' with his 'game' and good grief would everybody shut up and let him sell his game, Nintendo are a big boy now and can decide to protect their ownership of green sodding pipes if they really want.

    forumsig.png
    Albino BunnyRhesus PositiveHenroidTurkeyBloodySlothRoyceSraphim
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    I think that the great thing about the internet is that people get to vote with their clicks and choose which communities they associate with. Yes, moderators have the power to control what can and cannot be said within the message boards that they control, but they are also responsible to create a legal system that enough people will agree with. Otherwise people will simply move to another website. From that perspective I would liken the internet closer to a democracy than an oligarchy.
    I can see where you're coming from, but isn't the point of making a legal system largely keeping the undesirables out of the community, whatever its size might be? If so, it is not that the users are voting with their feet by not joining a community which does not conforms to their ethos, but that the designers of the community achieve their stated goal by only attracting users of a certain type.
    The community does not largely consist of people who consider acting like a jerk okay.

    It's full of people who have different ideas of when the line is crossed but absolutely no one I know would let death threats to strangers be an okay thing.

    Plus I've literally never seen some one go crazy sexist/racist in game and not get everyone universally agreeing to report him for it.

    I think you need to tone down the cynicism and 'all people suck' a bit. Because it's not particularly realistic.
    It seems like both our experiences and our definitions of what it takes to be a jerk differ drastically. I have certainly seen such things happening, and by and large you are not going to get reported for, say, saying "this is so gay" or another culturally mainstream "adage".

    Well yeah, but even as someone whose bi I don't really have a problem with 'this is so gay'. If we're taking 'he said something that could be implied to be mean' as a reason to ban these people from whatever service they're using then god help us all because I don't think there'd be anyone left.

    Plus this doesn't change the fact that when your looking at the system it solves the whole 'random death threats across the internet' thing which is more or less universally not cool.

  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Well yeah, but even as someone whose bi I don't really have a problem with 'this is so gay'. If we're taking 'he said something that could be implied to be mean' as a reason to ban these people from whatever service they're using then god help us all because I don't think there'd be anyone left.

    Plus this doesn't change the fact that when your looking at the system it solves the whole 'random death threats across the internet' thing which is more or less universally not cool.
    While not quite on the level of death threats that sort of abuse is still very serious and normalizes the social ostracization of the affected group. Condoning it spreads the message that it is okay to abuse that group, and that has a far reaching social impact. Not to mention what the affected person would feel like when he or she discovers the legal code paints them as an acceptable target for abuse. There is no reason to accept this sort of behavior, claiming that it cannot be changed, while condemning its slightly more harmful form and trying to correct it. There are plenty of communities where such things don't fly, and they have plenty of members.

    I haven't personally seen random death threats in LoL, but I have encountered quite a few in DotA. I suspect this is primarily because I played far more games of the latter than the former.

    Grey Paladin on
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
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