He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
It definitely was not a Thing(tm) for blue collar workers to wear ties and vests to a factory floor in the 1920s.
My guess is that either that workplace environment was unusual or (more likely) the workers were told by management to dress up for photo day.
it wasn't always ties, true. for one thing, ties can be a safety liability.
but looking at photographs of people at work at factories or poor people out on the town you don't really see a great deal of difference between the way poor people dressed and the way rich people dressed - it tended to be button-up shirts jackets, vests, hats, sometimes ties, etc. i mean clearly the rich people had finer, fancier clothes, but the actual structure of dress was real similar.
at some point between the 20s and 60s this proletarian ethic that poor people should dress in solidarity with their social class sort of spread and created the views we have today. i think it's a crummy ethic and i think it's mostly limiting to poor people who have been sold the idea that they're somehow selling out if they wear a tie to a job interview.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure the premise of "the great failure of STEM to appeal to women everywhere" is not a fallacious one.
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
It sounds like your grandfather wore a suit at least once a week. More if holidays.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
It sounds like your grandfather wore a suit at least once a week. More if holidays.
I was thinking about work.
Church/Temple is the reason we have terms like "Sunday best."
It was a special event you wear special clothing to.
This is not something you wear day to day.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
business C is composed of individuals who refuse to be stifled and feel like things should be done their way -- these design guidelines are terrible i'm just going to make my part the way that it should be done. this policy doesn't make sense to me; i'm just going to ignore it. my boss wants me to work on project A but honestly i am way better suited and more interested on project B so that is what i am going to do.
I have to say, Will, a lot of what you're saying seems motivated by a hardcore hate boner for fucking disreputable hippies. It's like you're fighting a culture war out of time. Which is fine, I guess, I mean I'm still siding with the Communists, if we want to compare who's tilting at older windmills. But I grew up in what is by all lights about as hippy an environment as they come (the lovely Ojai, California, known for its moon cults). And despite its various excesses--let's not get into the state of the science education provided by people who sincerely believe in healing crystals--I think that in terms of its values it was great.
I mean, here's an opposing anecdote. Recently I was playing 7 wonders with a bunch of people. Normally when we play we just add up our scores by ourselves at the end. But the dude who brought the game, this time, absolutely insisted that instead of doing that we all use the little score sheet that came with the game. It took about four times as long, and involved us all awkwardly sitting around reading out sub-portions of our score (7 points from red...) while he scribbled them down. It was So. Dumb. But he had to do it! Because--there was a sheet! That's what it was for. What--were we just going to not use the sheet?
He had a similar fit when some people wanted to trade in their wonders for new ones they hadn't tried before. He was like: oh, well they're supposed to be random. It's only the rules.
Yeah, well sometimes the rules are dumb, and we can think about what works for or against people instead.
I had a professor today make a crack about how casinos are the white man's revenge for what was done to the Indian tribes. Smile, laugh.
Some poor girl, and I don't mean this with snark or anything like that, really just kind of shut down and lost the ability to speak words or think clearly for a bit.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
Given the complete failure of STEM to appeal to women everywhere, it would've been kinda good if we could've found a female role model to do Cosmos.
Keeley Hawes, say.
So in order to get Astronomy to appeal to women, they should have replaced the actual respected astronomer with an actress?
I think it's safe to say that astronauts know what they're talking about too.
My bad. I didn't know there was an Astronaut Keeley Hawes. Hell, I didn't know there was an actress Keeley Hawes until I googled it five minutes ago.
Still, even from a social justice perspective, I can't imagine there is all that much representation of black dudes in STEM fields, so there's that as well...
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TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
It sounds like your grandfather wore a suit at least once a week. More if holidays.
I was thinking about work.
Church/Temple is the reason we have terms like "Sunday best."
It was a special event you wear special clothing to.
This is not something you wear day to day.
but I think the point was that these damn kids today don't even know how to do Sunday best, which would help them when they have to interact with the boomers who will be holding jobs over their heads.
Fwiw, the necessity of a button up shirt is a lot to do with the the lack of complex machine stitching, machine knitted fabrics and synthetics.
If you can't make a stitch that stretches, and the available fabrics have very little give, then garments that button up and semi tailored clothing is kind of a necessity.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Wearing a suit is overrated for work.
Unless you y'know, manage stocks for billionaires or are a politician.
we should teach our kids to dress to social standards for the same reason we teach them table manners and polite forms of address and the ability to make conversation.
and while i'm at it, to apply for a job or negotiate a raise or apply for a loan or groom themselves.
not being able to do these things will limit their ability to function fully in the world. it will shut doors.
If it's genuinely true that a $4,000 suit is a prerequisite to opening doors, then that's a deeply perverse fact about our society
be the change you want to see in the ross dress for less
i mean i am not going to champion that, of course.
yes, some people take any opportunity to show off money or try to use it as a prerequisite.
but that's not about suits. that's about money. people also do the same thing with luxury autos or rolex watches or super-expensive streetwear
I think that as an upper-middle class Northeast Corridor DINK, you're woefully misguided as to what the average American is able/willing to spend on their working wardrobe. I dress better than 90% of my co-workers, and I bought an entire week's worth of working clothes for less than the price of the average Brooks Brothers number.
Table manners and the ability to make conversation don't carry the price tag that suits do. Using suits as a bar of entry to participate in polite society is just another artificial way to keep the filthy poors out.
Write a program which reads a string using input(), and outputs the same string but with the first and last character exchanged. (You may assume the input string has length at least 2.) For example, on input Fairy a correct program will print yairF.
because even poor, pig-ignorant fruit pickers knew that dressing to an occasion was respectful. because being unable to engage with society to social expectations was going to be limiting to them.
Are we being ironic here?
not even a little bit
Real talk. It's kinda offensive as the child of migrant workers to hear you imply that foreigners should face pressure to assimilate to the dominant cultures standards to be able to feed their families.
my mom's family weren't migrants. best i can tell, they were white sharecroppers displaced to florida from georgia during reconstruction.
my mom won a scholarship and was the first in her family to go to college. most of her siblings ended up going as well.
my mom's parents were really ignorant people in a lot of ways and had a lot of problems. my grandfather was an alcoholic and died of a nerve disease in his late 40s. my grandmother finished sixth grade and was driven into fundamentalist religion when her husband got sick. but they were proud people, kind and virtuous in their own way. and they knew that failing to engage the world directly and respectfully was going to mean that they would never get the respect that they deserved.
anyways i think it's an important lesson and one i've carried with me. i think if it hadn't been for her parents' stubbornness in her upbringing my mom never would have escaped the central florida swamps.
There's no good way to take that when your mom was a fruit picker.
It's fine, they were lower class so obviously worse people. They should have cared more about profits and social norms if they wanted to be remembered well. Maybe they coulda even pulled themselves up by their bootstraps!
I'm not trying to railroad will or start a thing, I wouldn't mention it if I thought that's honestly how he felt I mentioned it because I don't think he thinks that so bringing it up can offer a chance for clarity and learning, not drama.
It definitely was not a Thing(tm) for blue collar workers to wear ties and vests to a factory floor in the 1920s.
My guess is that either that workplace environment was unusual or (more likely) the workers were told by management to dress up for photo day.
It depended on a lot of variables. It's quite possible it was the norm for that factory. It wouldn't have been the norm in all factories. A big factor would have been how much machinery one had to deal with but it wouldn't have been a sole factor. In some cases safety was a factor. In others the bosses demands were stopped by nothing because lack of labor laws.
I'm not sure the premise of "the great failure of STEM to appeal to women everywhere" is not a fallacious one.
This was so hedged that it took an extra few seconds to parse.
I don't know, my career-engineer father and most of his co-workers that I've ever met tend to make a decent - granted anecdotal - case that the field is drastically hostile to women and minorities.
Few things they seem to love as much as sitting around complaining about how unfair life is for the white men who have to deal with anything resembling affirmative action.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I don't see why younger people should be the ones that have to change.
Maybe the older generation should stop pussyfooting around and judge people on their merits for the work at hand rather than their ability to dress for an interview/work?
Delmain on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Haha. An article I just read estimated Canada's middle class to have a family income of $40,000 - $80,000.
I have a tiny 1 BR apartment, a car that cost $20k when it was new and no savings.
I am not part of Canada's upper class.
What a useless article.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Fwiw, the necessity of a button up shirt is a lot to do with the the lack of complex machine stitching, machine knitted fabrics and synthetics.
If you can't make a stitch that stretches, and the available fabrics have very little give, then garments that button up and semi tailored clothing is kind of a necessity.
yeah
modern textiles are way more impressive than what was available in the 19th c
fuck gendered marketing
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Write a program which reads a string using input(), and outputs the same string but with the first and last character exchanged. (You may assume the input string has length at least 2.) For example, on input Fairy a correct program will print yairF.
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
It sounds like your grandfather wore a suit at least once a week. More if holidays.
I was thinking about work.
Church/Temple is the reason we have terms like "Sunday best."
It was a special event you wear special clothing to.
This is not something you wear day to day.
but I think the point was that these damn kids today don't even know how to do Sunday best, which would help them when they have to interact with the boomers who will be holding jobs over their heads.
Now get off my lawn.
I was getting suit for daily work wear vibe.
I didn't get a choice, if I was at temple I was dressed up. My dad required it.
I am the weird amalgamation of understanding you dress up for x and wear whatever for everything else.
I actually rather wear jeans and a t-shirt to work if I am not interacting with customers because I am more comfortable and having the suit doesn't make me more productive.
I also understand you over dress like mad for interviews because you want to put your best foot forward which is why I guess I got the job recently. But in DC suits are like jeans and a t-shirt in Denver. People just wear it constantly.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
I had a professor today make a crack about how casinos are the white man's revenge for what was done to the Indian tribes. Smile, laugh.
Some poor girl, and I don't mean this with snark or anything like that, really just kind of shut down and lost the ability to speak words or think clearly for a bit.
was she confused at his meaning, or just awestruck that a professor would be cracking genocide jokes?
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
right i mean obviously workwear is going to be different stuff than dresswear.
i guess what i was saying is that a lot of clothes that people considered "workwear" back in older times look structurally what we'd considered to be "suiting" these days - button-up or collared shirts, vests, jackets, hats, some sort of neckwear, etc.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
I don't see why younger people should be the ones that have to change.
Maybe the older generation should stop pussyfooting around and judge people on their merits for the work at hand rather than their ability to dress for an interview/work?
Hey.
How about compromise.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Also why the fuck did I choose New Zealand to start my plague in I've only infected five whole people so far I guess they don't have many more than that there.
Aaaaaaggggggggrrrrhhh this is gonna take forever...
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
I had a professor today make a crack about how casinos are the white man's revenge for what was done to the Indian tribes. Smile, laugh.
Some poor girl, and I don't mean this with snark or anything like that, really just kind of shut down and lost the ability to speak words or think clearly for a bit.
was she confused at his meaning, or just awestruck that a professor would be cracking genocide jokes?
maybe she lost her father to a gambling addiction.
Bless your heart.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
right i mean obviously workwear is going to be different stuff than dresswear.
i guess what i was saying is that a lot of clothes that people considered "workwear" back in older times look structurally what we'd considered to be "suiting" these days - button-up or collared shirts, vests, jackets, hats, some sort of neckwear, etc.
That's not necessarily "I want to dress fancy like them rich folks so maybe I'll catch the bosses eye"
It could be just how the clothing looked.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
It definitely was not a Thing(tm) for blue collar workers to wear ties and vests to a factory floor in the 1920s.
My guess is that either that workplace environment was unusual or (more likely) the workers were told by management to dress up for photo day.
it wasn't always ties, true. for one thing, ties can be a safety liability.
but looking at photographs of people at work at factories or poor people out on the town you don't really see a great deal of difference between the way poor people dressed and the way rich people dressed - it tended to be button-up shirts jackets, vests, hats, sometimes ties, etc. i mean clearly the rich people had finer, fancier clothes, but the actual structure of dress was real similar.
at some point between the 20s and 60s this proletarian ethic that poor people should dress in solidarity with their social class sort of spread and created the views we have today. i think it's a crummy ethic and i think it's mostly limiting to poor people who have been sold the idea that they're somehow selling out if they wear a tie to a job interview.
Just as Feral was wrong about the factory, you're being pretty wrong here. There is a world of difference between the suits those workers are wearing and what their bosses would have been wearing. There wasn't a uniformity of appearance during the periods you mentioned.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure the premise of "the great failure of STEM to appeal to women everywhere" is not a fallacious one.
This was so hedged that it took an extra few seconds to parse.
I don't know, my career-engineer father and most of his co-workers that I've ever met tend to make a decent - granted anecdotal - case that the field is drastically hostile to women and minorities.
Few things they seem to love as much as sitting around complaining about how unfair life is for the white men who have to deal with anything resembling affirmative action.
well, sure, but there are also lots of women engineers and doctors and scientists
not as many as there would be if the culture weren't so cro-magnon, i'll grant
but I don't think a female host on a science program is the way we're going to solve that problem
Fwiw, the necessity of a button up shirt is a lot to do with the the lack of complex machine stitching, machine knitted fabrics and synthetics.
If you can't make a stitch that stretches, and the available fabrics have very little give, then garments that button up and semi tailored clothing is kind of a necessity.
yeah
modern textiles are way more impressive than what was available in the 19th c
I just think it's worth bearing in mind that when you look back pre-fifties, shirt and tailored clothing was pretty much all there was by simple virtue of the materials and clothing construction techniques available at the time
It's not as if the people in the photos being bandied about had much in the way of options that weren't similar to what would now be termed a suit
Posts
He was a mechanic, he fixed things. Before then he helped run the family farm.
Yes you wear the suit for Sunday when you go to church but your day to day you wear more functional clothing. A suit isn't great when you are under a car working on an engine 8 hours a day. Or cleaning up chicken poop.
it wasn't always ties, true. for one thing, ties can be a safety liability.
but looking at photographs of people at work at factories or poor people out on the town you don't really see a great deal of difference between the way poor people dressed and the way rich people dressed - it tended to be button-up shirts jackets, vests, hats, sometimes ties, etc. i mean clearly the rich people had finer, fancier clothes, but the actual structure of dress was real similar.
at some point between the 20s and 60s this proletarian ethic that poor people should dress in solidarity with their social class sort of spread and created the views we have today. i think it's a crummy ethic and i think it's mostly limiting to poor people who have been sold the idea that they're somehow selling out if they wear a tie to a job interview.
It sounds like your grandfather wore a suit at least once a week. More if holidays.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
My other gramps wore a suit every sunday.
Edit: Only one of them was a factory worker, guess which one.
I was thinking about work.
Church/Temple is the reason we have terms like "Sunday best."
It was a special event you wear special clothing to.
This is not something you wear day to day.
I have to say, Will, a lot of what you're saying seems motivated by a hardcore hate boner for fucking disreputable hippies. It's like you're fighting a culture war out of time. Which is fine, I guess, I mean I'm still siding with the Communists, if we want to compare who's tilting at older windmills. But I grew up in what is by all lights about as hippy an environment as they come (the lovely Ojai, California, known for its moon cults). And despite its various excesses--let's not get into the state of the science education provided by people who sincerely believe in healing crystals--I think that in terms of its values it was great.
I mean, here's an opposing anecdote. Recently I was playing 7 wonders with a bunch of people. Normally when we play we just add up our scores by ourselves at the end. But the dude who brought the game, this time, absolutely insisted that instead of doing that we all use the little score sheet that came with the game. It took about four times as long, and involved us all awkwardly sitting around reading out sub-portions of our score (7 points from red...) while he scribbled them down. It was So. Dumb. But he had to do it! Because--there was a sheet! That's what it was for. What--were we just going to not use the sheet?
He had a similar fit when some people wanted to trade in their wonders for new ones they hadn't tried before. He was like: oh, well they're supposed to be random. It's only the rules.
Yeah, well sometimes the rules are dumb, and we can think about what works for or against people instead.
Some poor girl, and I don't mean this with snark or anything like that, really just kind of shut down and lost the ability to speak words or think clearly for a bit.
My bad. I didn't know there was an Astronaut Keeley Hawes. Hell, I didn't know there was an actress Keeley Hawes until I googled it five minutes ago.
Still, even from a social justice perspective, I can't imagine there is all that much representation of black dudes in STEM fields, so there's that as well...
but I think the point was that these damn kids today don't even know how to do Sunday best, which would help them when they have to interact with the boomers who will be holding jobs over their heads.
Now get off my lawn.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
If you can't make a stitch that stretches, and the available fabrics have very little give, then garments that button up and semi tailored clothing is kind of a necessity.
Unless you y'know, manage stocks for billionaires or are a politician.
I think that as an upper-middle class Northeast Corridor DINK, you're woefully misguided as to what the average American is able/willing to spend on their working wardrobe. I dress better than 90% of my co-workers, and I bought an entire week's worth of working clothes for less than the price of the average Brooks Brothers number.
Table manners and the ability to make conversation don't carry the price tag that suits do. Using suits as a bar of entry to participate in polite society is just another artificial way to keep the filthy poors out.
If you are a politician, you want to appear to be as folksy as possible.
skippy's code:
how come it's word[1:len(word)-1] and not word[1:len(word)-2]
you can't use just len(word) because then you get 4 for the final character instead of 3
I guess the range thing is not inclusive of the last index number specified?
so S[0:4] will give you 0, 1, 2, and 3 but not 4?
my mom's family weren't migrants. best i can tell, they were white sharecroppers displaced to florida from georgia during reconstruction.
my mom won a scholarship and was the first in her family to go to college. most of her siblings ended up going as well.
my mom's parents were really ignorant people in a lot of ways and had a lot of problems. my grandfather was an alcoholic and died of a nerve disease in his late 40s. my grandmother finished sixth grade and was driven into fundamentalist religion when her husband got sick. but they were proud people, kind and virtuous in their own way. and they knew that failing to engage the world directly and respectfully was going to mean that they would never get the respect that they deserved.
anyways i think it's an important lesson and one i've carried with me. i think if it hadn't been for her parents' stubbornness in her upbringing my mom never would have escaped the central florida swamps.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'm not trying to railroad will or start a thing, I wouldn't mention it if I thought that's honestly how he felt I mentioned it because I don't think he thinks that so bringing it up can offer a chance for clarity and learning, not drama.
I don't insist on it. I just play with people too lazy to add.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I lived a grandadless life.
It depended on a lot of variables. It's quite possible it was the norm for that factory. It wouldn't have been the norm in all factories. A big factor would have been how much machinery one had to deal with but it wouldn't have been a sole factor. In some cases safety was a factor. In others the bosses demands were stopped by nothing because lack of labor laws.
This was so hedged that it took an extra few seconds to parse.
I don't know, my career-engineer father and most of his co-workers that I've ever met tend to make a decent - granted anecdotal - case that the field is drastically hostile to women and minorities.
Few things they seem to love as much as sitting around complaining about how unfair life is for the white men who have to deal with anything resembling affirmative action.
Maybe the older generation should stop pussyfooting around and judge people on their merits for the work at hand rather than their ability to dress for an interview/work?
I have a tiny 1 BR apartment, a car that cost $20k when it was new and no savings.
I am not part of Canada's upper class.
What a useless article.
yeah
modern textiles are way more impressive than what was available in the 19th c
i remember being confused by this and eventually knowing what the answer was
but i don't remember the answer
Also
Nobody can ever remember how the science things work
I was getting suit for daily work wear vibe.
I didn't get a choice, if I was at temple I was dressed up. My dad required it.
I am the weird amalgamation of understanding you dress up for x and wear whatever for everything else.
I actually rather wear jeans and a t-shirt to work if I am not interacting with customers because I am more comfortable and having the suit doesn't make me more productive.
I also understand you over dress like mad for interviews because you want to put your best foot forward which is why I guess I got the job recently. But in DC suits are like jeans and a t-shirt in Denver. People just wear it constantly.
was she confused at his meaning, or just awestruck that a professor would be cracking genocide jokes?
right i mean obviously workwear is going to be different stuff than dresswear.
i guess what i was saying is that a lot of clothes that people considered "workwear" back in older times look structurally what we'd considered to be "suiting" these days - button-up or collared shirts, vests, jackets, hats, some sort of neckwear, etc.
Hey.
How about compromise.
Aaaaaaggggggggrrrrhhh this is gonna take forever...
Man, Nova, no need to show off! You're rich, we get it.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
maybe she lost her father to a gambling addiction.
That's not necessarily "I want to dress fancy like them rich folks so maybe I'll catch the bosses eye"
It could be just how the clothing looked.
Just as Feral was wrong about the factory, you're being pretty wrong here. There is a world of difference between the suits those workers are wearing and what their bosses would have been wearing. There wasn't a uniformity of appearance during the periods you mentioned.
well, sure, but there are also lots of women engineers and doctors and scientists
not as many as there would be if the culture weren't so cro-magnon, i'll grant
but I don't think a female host on a science program is the way we're going to solve that problem
I just think it's worth bearing in mind that when you look back pre-fifties, shirt and tailored clothing was pretty much all there was by simple virtue of the materials and clothing construction techniques available at the time
It's not as if the people in the photos being bandied about had much in the way of options that weren't similar to what would now be termed a suit