ufo, I don't even know what your point is anymore.
Were you not loved enough as a child, or maybe loved too much in the wrong way?
With your raw hatred of the iPhone I'm wondering the same about you.
I realize the hypocrisy of asking someone if they don't have something better to do on a web forum, but... man, you've really got a hate on for this thing.
ufo, I don't even know what your point is anymore.
Were you not loved enough as a child, or maybe loved too much in the wrong way?
With your raw hatred of the iPhone I'm wondering the same about you.
I realize the hypocrisy of asking someone if they don't have something better to do on a web forum, but... man, you've really got a hate on for this thing.
Actually, I have nothing at all against the iPhone. It is a decent piece of hardware. Sure it has faults, but so does everything, and it has some pretty sweel features that nothing else has.
My "hate" is towards the effectthat the iPod brand has had on the mp3 player market, and towards Apple for behaving in what I believe to be a non-ethical manner, by milking all of the exorbinant profit out of the market that they can, without a care that they are, at the same time, stagnating it.
When I look at the iPhone, it symbolizes both Apple's attempts to do the same thing in another market, but also what might be the chink in Apple's armor, which will eventually allow the iPod brand to falter just enough to allow proper market forces to regain control, and give us an mp3 player market controlled by an invisible hand, not Mr. Jobs' hand.
I think saying it's not ethical is going a bit too far. A lot, even.
I find Apple's business model pretty fascinating, as it's so heavily controlled. Controlled, focused, draconian; yeah. Unethical? I don't think so.
Technically I'm a proto-economist, not a proto-accountant (at least for the time being) so I get to worry about equity vs. efficiency, and all that stuff.
The reason I would call it unethical, though, is because Apple is holding back the market from its real potential, bot in technology and in price, in favor of gaining an extra big profit, when they could make just a little bit less of a gigantic profit, and allow the market to grow at a more natural pace.
They have developed for themselves a virtual monopoly, and the ethical thing to do would be to control the market inthe way thatthe market might behave if they did not have control over it.
It's also possible that the changes made to the phones' firmware were too great to allow for an upgrade without bricking, unless Apple went out of their way to design around it. They have no incentive whatsoever to change their patching procedures to take patches in to account, so if your bytes are wrong, then when they rewrite them, you can expect problems like this to arise.
This can be explained with a completely non-malicious intent, but it's not as much *fun* that way.
FWIW: I do not and will not own an iPhone in its current state. Trendy crap is not for me.
jonxp on
Every time you write parallel fifths, Bach kills a kitten.
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But they're not doing it specifically to hold back the market. I think their business model happens to sync ridiculously well with certain consumer electronics, which has allowed them a monopoly. I don't think it's an abused one either; Apple well and truly earned their dominance with the mp3 player market. Does it artificially increase the cost across the board? Drive down features? Could be, but current devices are certainly meeting consumer needs.
That business model is harder to leverage in other spaces though, and it's appearing that phones may be one.
We could always reckon it in terms of lost consumer opportunity.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
But they're not doing it specifically to hold back the market. I think their business model happens to sync ridiculously well with certain consumer electronics, which has allowed them a monopoly. I don't think it's an abused one either; Apple well and truly earned their dominance with the mp3 player market. Does it artificially increase the cost across the board? Drive down features? Could be, but current devices are certainly meeting consumer needs.
That business model is harder to leverage in other spaces though, and it's appearing that phones may be one.
We could always reckon it in terms of lost consumer opportunity.
edit: does anyone here actually own an iPhone?
I'm not saying thatthey did anythingunethical to get to where they are, just that they have been abusing their position. I also don't think that they are stagnating the market on purpose merely that they are putting making every possible increase in their already bloated bottom line ahead of the overall equity of the market, and that is something which I personally consider to be unethical (from a "fairness" stance, not neccesarily a business stance.)
Honestly, loss of consumer opportunity IS what it boils down to. The reason that the market does react, I believe, has to do with the fact that most of the market doesn't realize what it is missing. It doesn't dawn on them just how much cheaper or more fully featured these devices could be, because the iPod was their introduction to the market in the first place, so that is all thatthey are aquainted with.
The reason that I watch the failures of the iPhones so closely is very much because, as you said, their business model doesn't translate quite right to that market, where consumers are expecting something a little different, and I believe that a backlash there might have the ability to make consumers in the mp3 player market question whether they're getting everything thatthey deserve as well.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
Careful Evander charges anal sex for his services, and he's got like a mushroom with a smurf living in it.
Apple should just go ahead and release the ivagina and give a lot of apple geeks the ability to finally fuck an apple product.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
Careful Evander charges anal sex for his services, and he's got like a mushroom with a smurf living in it.
Apple should just go ahead and release the ivagina and give a lot of apple geeks the ability to finally fuck an apple product.
why not?
they've been screwing their customers for so long, it would be only right if they returned the favor.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
An mp3 player with a very sleek and good looking UI, minimum of 8 gb capacity, has very good looking video(not quite a requirement), and plays AAC files(preferably protected as well). A cell phone with a decent keyboard, good-very good web browser, wi-fi capability, good calling quality, easy to use(current phone is a nokia flip phone with terribly tiny buttons). I've thought about a Zune and an HTC phone, but I'm practically guaranteed to pay a higher monthly fee for data with an HTC phone, unless I went with SERO, which has a credit check and I have no credit history. A higher monthly fee is definitely going to make a non-iPhone more expensive, as I'd be paying $35 total with an iPhone.
Godammit, Evander. Putting out a quality product that people want isn't 'unethical'. Neither is charging what the market will bear.
the issue is that people want the product, and are willing to bear the price, based primarily on the brandname, and not the product itself.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it doesn't make it any less conjecture. And it's still not unethical, even if this is true.
It's pefectly valid to sell an experience or perceived experience in conjungtion with physical goods or software. If owning an iPhone makes a consumer feel good, that's not unethical.
A vast majority of people buying phones (from Apple or anybody else) aren't putting third party software on it. I know I have my phone chock-full of third party apps that make it do badass things, but for every me there's 1,000 people who use their phones to make calls and keep numbers in it. I believe a vast majority of iPhone owners are in this category, and this is totally overblown.
I'm willing to bet that Apple didn't intentionally undo what the hackers had done. They didn't sit down in their cubicles and say, "Man, how can we fuck over those guys?" They stuck to their own product plan for the software, which happened to break the efforts of hackers, and that's not their concern. They only issued a warning because it's a high profile device that's getting lots of media attention and it covers their backs to point out, to the public, that the only people affected by this update are the ones who put unsupported software on their phones because it was built to be a closed system. You know, like everything else Apple puts on the market.
I'm willing to bet that Apple didn't intentionally undo what the hackers had done. They didn't sit down in their cubicles and say, "Man, how can we fuck over those guys?" They stuck to their own product plan for the software, which happened to break the efforts of hackers, and that's not their concern.
Actually, the iPhone dev team that developed one of the unlocks, stated a very specific and easy way(a secpack?) to undo the unlock before updating the firmware. Assuming they're correct.
Godammit, Evander. Putting out a quality product that people want isn't 'unethical'. Neither is charging what the market will bear.
the issue is that people want the product, and are willing to bear the price, based primarily on the brandname, and not the product itself.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it doesn't make it any less conjecture. And it's still not unethical, even if this is true.
It's pefectly valid to sell an experience or perceived experience in conjungtion with physical goods or software. If owning an iPhone makes a consumer feel good, that's not unethical.
I guess we have different sets of ethics (again, I'm talking more about social ethics. In a business sense, I agree thatthey haven't actuallytransgressed anything.)
To me, it feels kind of like Apple is sleeping with a drunk girl, in that consumers really aren't entirely aware ofwhat is going on, butthey see something pretty, and it feels good, so they go along with it, and Apple is aware of the fact that this is what is happening, but rather than giving consumers a chance tomake sure that this is whatthey really want to do, Apple is just pushing ahead asmuch as they can, and taking advantage of the consumers' condition.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
ufo, I don't even know what your point is anymore.
Were you not loved enough as a child, or maybe loved too much in the wrong way?
With your raw hatred of the iPhone I'm wondering the same about you.
I realize the hypocrisy of asking someone if they don't have something better to do on a web forum, but... man, you've really got a hate on for this thing.
Actually, I have nothing at all against the iPhone. It is a decent piece of hardware. Sure it has faults, but so does everything, and it has some pretty sweel features that nothing else has.
My "hate" is towards the effectthat the iPod brand has had on the mp3 player market, and towards Apple for behaving in what I believe to be a non-ethical manner, by milking all of the exorbinant profit out of the market that they can, without a care that they are, at the same time, stagnating it.
When I look at the iPhone, it symbolizes both Apple's attempts to do the same thing in another market, but also what might be the chink in Apple's armor, which will eventually allow the iPod brand to falter just enough to allow proper market forces to regain control, and give us an mp3 player market controlled by an invisible hand, not Mr. Jobs' hand.
So "ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE I HATE THE IPOD ETC". Right then.
It would be great to have an iPod/iPhone thread wherein you weren't posting this drivel every second post. Seriously Evander - *yawn*. Your proto-economist bullshit is coming across as incredibly whiney. Essentially you're an "everyone-except-the-iPod-apologist".
If they build it, we will come. Apple makes a good mousetrap, it's up to everyone else to make a better one. You can boo-fucking-hoo over market forces and monopolization and manipulation all you want - Apple came late to the game, did something right and kept doing it right. Nothing would please me more than to see them keep on keeping on. That's capitalism baby, and you need to suck it up hard.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
An mp3 player with a very sleek and good looking UI, minimum of 8 gb capacity, has very good looking video(not quite a requirement), and plays AAC files(preferably protected as well). A cell phone with a decent keyboard, good-very good web browser, wi-fi capability, good calling quality, easy to use(current phone is a nokia flip phone with terribly tiny buttons). I've thought about a Zune and an HTC phone, but I'm practically guaranteed to pay a higher monthly fee for data with an HTC phone, unless I went with SERO, which has a credit check and I have no credit history. A higher monthly fee is definitely going to make a non-iPhone more expensive, as I'd be paying $35 total with an iPhone.
You realize that the Ocean does everything you're asking for (except the 8GB; it's limited to 2GB SD cards at the moment, but I guess you could always swap out cards if you really wanted) for about $200 less than an iPhone, right?
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
Simplicity, very pleasing aesthetics, an actual marketing budget.
You realize that the Ocean does everything you're asking for (except the 8GB; it's limited to 2GB SD cards at the moment, but I guess you could always swap out cards if you really wanted) for about $200 less than an iPhone, right?
That space difference is important, and I'd incur more cost by buying another couple of cards, plus I'd spend $30 more per month on it so after 7 months, the iPhone starts being cheaper. Also, the helio's screen isn't nearly as good is it? I mean, I welcome the suggestions, I'd love to find a satisfying alternative.
People are buying the iPhone without researching it, expecting it to be at least as open as the other phones out there, or else they are buying the iPhone because they buy into all of Apple's "we're the little guy who is hip and cares about you" marketing bullshit, and don't takethetime to pay attention.
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
An mp3 player with a very sleek and good looking UI, minimum of 8 gb capacity, has very good looking video(not quite a requirement), and plays AAC files(preferably protected as well). A cell phone with a decent keyboard, good-very good web browser, wi-fi capability, good calling quality, easy to use(current phone is a nokia flip phone with terribly tiny buttons). I've thought about a Zune and an HTC phone, but I'm practically guaranteed to pay a higher monthly fee for data with an HTC phone, unless I went with SERO, which has a credit check and I have no credit history. A higher monthly fee is definitely going to make a non-iPhone more expensive, as I'd be paying $35 total with an iPhone.
Have you triedgoing ahead and applying for an SERO account? It is possible thatthey might let you through (I got mine with very little credt history) and you always have afew weeks to cancel after getting it.
You ought to see if that is reallyan option for you, because you can make thingsmuchcheaper for yourselfthatway, by either getting a phone and 4 2gig flash cards, or even getting aphone, and then a different brand of mp3 player with 8gigs
To me, it feels kind of like Apple is sleeping with a drunk girl, in that consumers really aren't entirely aware ofwhat is going on, butthey see something pretty, and it feels good, so they go along with it, and Apple is aware of the fact that this is what is happening, but rather than giving consumers a chance tomake sure that this is whatthey really want to do, Apple is just pushing ahead asmuch as they can, and taking advantage of the consumers' condition.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
The consumer is unaware? What the fuck?
Okay - so it's Apple's fault that you're a dumb, uneducated, trend following sheeple? Apple is supposed to give consumers a "chance to make sure this is what they really want to do"??
"Hi, Welcome to Toyota. Are you really sure you want to buy one of our cars? You can get a Honda that'll be cheaper with better mileage!"
You're blinded by hatred here. Honestly, there are good discussions to be had about the ethics of the iPod economy - just not with you.
Godammit, Evander. Putting out a quality product that people want isn't 'unethical'. Neither is charging what the market will bear.
the issue is that people want the product, and are willing to bear the price, based primarily on the brandname, and not the product itself.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it doesn't make it any less conjecture. And it's still not unethical, even if this is true.
It's pefectly valid to sell an experience or perceived experience in conjungtion with physical goods or software. If owning an iPhone makes a consumer feel good, that's not unethical.
I guess we have different sets of ethics (again, I'm talking more about social ethics. In a business sense, I agree thatthey haven't actuallytransgressed anything.)
To me, it feels kind of like Apple is sleeping with a drunk girl, in that consumers really aren't entirely aware ofwhat is going on, butthey see something pretty, and it feels good, so they go along with it, and Apple is aware of the fact that this is what is happening, but rather than giving consumers a chance tomake sure that this is whatthey really want to do, Apple is just pushing ahead asmuch as they can, and taking advantage of the consumers' condition.
Calling customers idiots is not a proper response, no matter how much you couch it in terms of 'social ethics', and strange analogies.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
Simplicity, very pleasing aesthetics, an actual marketing budget.
By simplicity, do you mean the old "ease of use" myth? Most items I've seen on the market are just as easy to use as an iPod. The Simplicity thingis merely something thatthey've pushed intheir (rather effective) marketing.
The marketing budget, again,just leads to increased brand recognition, which is the whole point I've been making (that it sells based on thebrand, and not the device itself)
Aesthetics is the one arguement that youcould make a case for, but you would have to justify that millions of people, from all manner of walks of life, with such a wide range of interests, ALL happy to find the exact same device to be the most aesthetically pleasing, and that whenever Apple has redesigned the device, they have all just happened to change what pleases them within that instance.
Far more likely is that fashion dictates that "this is what looks good" and people obey that decree, rather than everyone simultaniously deciding that they all like the looks of the exact same thing all at once.
I'm willing to bet that Apple didn't intentionally undo what the hackers had done. They didn't sit down in their cubicles and say, "Man, how can we fuck over those guys?" They stuck to their own product plan for the software, which happened to break the efforts of hackers, and that's not their concern.
Actually, the iPhone dev team that developed one of the unlocks, stated a very specific and easy way(a secpack?) to undo the unlock before updating the firmware. Assuming they're correct.
It wasn't correct, it resulted in an IMEI mismatch.
I haven't read the entire thread. However, someone on the first page asked whether it's possible to continue to use an iPhone without upgrading firmware. The answer is yes, you can continue to sync your iPhone, charge it, and add or remove any files you wish- basically, it can operate normally- without upgrading firmware.
Have you triedgoing ahead and applying for an SERO account? It is possible thatthey might let you through (I got mine with very little credt history) and you always have afew weeks to cancel after getting it.
You ought to see if that is reallyan option for you, because you can make thingsmuchcheaper for yourselfthatway, by either getting a phone and 4 2gig flash cards, or even getting aphone, and then a different brand of mp3 player with 8gigs
Yes, it might be wise to go ahead and see if I can get that, and I plan on dropping by a Sprint store to try out a Mogul. But I still really don't like the idea of having to switch out memory cards. I already felt that 8 gb was low, and the only reason I'm so hot to get a new mp3 player, is I'm so very tired of constantly switching cds in my car, and being able to switch songs, among a selection of 6-8gb instantly is valuable.
Getting something like a mogul would certainly be the cheaper option IF it satisfied me as a media player, and that's my biggest hesitation with it.
The marketing budget, again,just leads to increased brand recognition, which is the whole point I've been making (that it sells based on thebrand, and not the device itself)
Brand recognition is not the same as buying something because you want to show off that you have an iPod. Many people have no idea that Creative mp3 players exist.
I do think the ipod's hard-structured system would be easier overall than a more open filetree organization system that some other mp3 players have, and then there's iTunes very simple UI. I really don't think it's easy to say whether or not, or how much, the ipod line is successful for its fashion appeal.
Godammit, Evander. Putting out a quality product that people want isn't 'unethical'. Neither is charging what the market will bear.
the issue is that people want the product, and are willing to bear the price, based primarily on the brandname, and not the product itself.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it doesn't make it any less conjecture. And it's still not unethical, even if this is true.
It's pefectly valid to sell an experience or perceived experience in conjungtion with physical goods or software. If owning an iPhone makes a consumer feel good, that's not unethical.
I guess we have different sets of ethics (again, I'm talking more about social ethics. In a business sense, I agree thatthey haven't actuallytransgressed anything.)
To me, it feels kind of like Apple is sleeping with a drunk girl, in that consumers really aren't entirely aware ofwhat is going on, butthey see something pretty, and it feels good, so they go along with it, and Apple is aware of the fact that this is what is happening, but rather than giving consumers a chance tomake sure that this is whatthey really want to do, Apple is just pushing ahead asmuch as they can, and taking advantage of the consumers' condition.
Calling customers idiots is not a proper response, no matter how much you couch it in terms of 'social ethics', and strange analogies.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
quality != feature lists
I NEVER called customers idiots.
There is a difference between a lack of intelligence and a lack of information. Consumers in the mp3 player market seem to be relatively uninformed, compared to other markets. This is a trend both with new markets (which this one still is) as well ans with technological markets, so the fact that this happens here is no suprise, nor is it any slight against the consumers to point it out.
And I also never said anything about feature lists. I asked for a reason other than brand recognition. Are you implying thatthe iPod has FAR superior quality to every other product on the market? I can tell you, flat out, that this is not true. While the iPod is by no means an inferior product, there are many products with near identical quality, and even some with superior quality.
The fact is, aside from brand recognition (the effects of marketing being a subset of that) there really is no way to logically account for the sheer enormity of the iPod's market share.
Have you triedgoing ahead and applying for an SERO account? It is possible thatthey might let you through (I got mine with very little credt history) and you always have afew weeks to cancel after getting it.
You ought to see if that is reallyan option for you, because you can make thingsmuchcheaper for yourselfthatway, by either getting a phone and 4 2gig flash cards, or even getting aphone, and then a different brand of mp3 player with 8gigs
Yes, it might be wise to go ahead and see if I can get that, and I plan on dropping by a Sprint store to try out a Mogul. But I still really don't like the idea of having to switch out memory cards. I already felt that 8 gb was low, and the only reason I'm so hot to get a new mp3 player, is I'm so very tired of constantly switching cds in my car, and being able to switch songs, among a selection of 6-8gb instantly is valuable.
Getting something like a mogul would certainly be the cheaper option IF it satisfied me as a media player, and that's my biggest hesitation with it.
The marketing budget, again,just leads to increased brand recognition, which is the whole point I've been making (that it sells based on thebrand, and not the device itself)
Brand recognition is not the same as buying something because you want to show off that you have an iPod. Many people have no idea that Creative mp3 players exist.
I do think the ipod's hard-structured system would be easier overall than a more open filetree organization system that some other mp3 players have, and then there's iTunes very simple UI. I really don't think it's easy to say whether or not, or how much, the ipod line is successful for its fashion appeal.
if 8 gigs sounds low to you, and your music concern has more to do with your car, then maybe you ought to consider going with something like the mogul, and then getting a larger mp3 player as well, for car use. That way you could keep 2 gigs with you portably (the mogul possibly supposrts up to 4, by some rumors, but definitelyat least 2) and still have more storage for when you are in the car.
As for what other player to get, if your concern there is only music, then you have a wide variety of inexpensive choices in front of you.
The marketing budget, again,just leads to increased brand recognition, which is the whole point I've been making (that it sells based on thebrand, and not the device itself)
Brand recognition is not the same as buying something because you want to show off that you have an iPod. Many people have no idea that Creative mp3 players exist.
I do think the ipod's hard-structured system would be easier overall than a more open filetree organization system that some other mp3 players have, and then there's iTunes very simple UI. I really don't think it's easy to say whether or not, or how much, the ipod line is successful for its fashion appeal.
The recognition there is misleadig.
The point I have been making is that the iPod, which is not, by any means, a BAD device, generally sells based on its brand, and not on the device itself.
There are a variety of permutations as to the "how" here, such as wanting one as a status symbol, or it being the only brand one is aware of, or blindly believing common wisdom that it is the "easiest" device to use, and others. They all add up to the same thing, though, and that puts Apple in a position that I feel they misuse, from my only personal perspective of social ethics.
As for the file system, and all, of the iPod, how many other players have you tried?
Personally, I honestly haven't tried many, but I can honestly say that I have found my Zune to bebotheasier to navigate than my iPod, as well asthe software ebing more user-friendly than iTunes. If easy of use is whateverything comes down to, then the Zune should at least have a slightly larger market share. It is currently in the number 2 place, but it isn't even in the double digits.
Evander, I just can't see consumers as victims. At least, not in relationship to mp3 player technology. Consumers may not make the objectively "best" choice, but sure as hell aren't forced to buy pieces of luxury technology against their will, nor buy subpar ones that don't meet their basic needs.
If perceived style is a need, then consumers will buy to meet it.
edit: the Zune doesn't "deserve" more market share. If it had been first, it may have earned it. It wasn't. And though I have one and think the brown and green is way sexier than white with no buttons, that's an entirely subjective view.
Awww, there goes the "Apple is teh evil" mantra. Pity, really.
That article just lead me to think of some conspiracy theories, but I'm going to go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt, and just say that they are handling this well.
if 8 gigs sounds low to you, and your music concern has more to do with your car, then maybe you ought to consider going with something like the mogul, and then getting a larger mp3 player as well, for car use. That way you could keep 2 gigs with you portably (the mogul possibly supposrts up to 4, by some rumors, but definitelyat least 2) and still have more storage for when you are in the car.
As for what other player to get, if your concern there is only music, then you have a wide variety of inexpensive choices in front of you.
Yeah, and if I go for a separate mp3 player, there's no longer any price savings, and there's two devices to carry with me instead of one. This is my dilemma.
I certainly don't deny that the brand of the ipod, it being the most recognizable mp3 player brand, plays a big role in its market share. I also say that this is true for what, every product imaginable? Some markets have lesser disparities due to recognition, but it's just the way things are.
Guys, Evander jumps into EVERY iphone/ipod thread and completely and utterley lets loose a bastion of hate upon it.
I think apple killed his parents.
In other news, when can we predict an iPhone v2? Because that's what I want. Hearing all the boohooing about the EDGE network makes me want one, just one that's a 3G edition.
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There most definitely is.
But this is my work comp, and I mostly work in excell, where I don't need it, so I am too lazy to do anything about it
With your raw hatred of the iPhone I'm wondering the same about you.
I realize the hypocrisy of asking someone if they don't have something better to do on a web forum, but... man, you've really got a hate on for this thing.
Actually, I have nothing at all against the iPhone. It is a decent piece of hardware. Sure it has faults, but so does everything, and it has some pretty sweel features that nothing else has.
My "hate" is towards the effectthat the iPod brand has had on the mp3 player market, and towards Apple for behaving in what I believe to be a non-ethical manner, by milking all of the exorbinant profit out of the market that they can, without a care that they are, at the same time, stagnating it.
When I look at the iPhone, it symbolizes both Apple's attempts to do the same thing in another market, but also what might be the chink in Apple's armor, which will eventually allow the iPod brand to falter just enough to allow proper market forces to regain control, and give us an mp3 player market controlled by an invisible hand, not Mr. Jobs' hand.
I find Apple's business model pretty fascinating, as it's so heavily controlled. Controlled, focused, draconian; yeah. Unethical? I don't think so.
Technically I'm a proto-economist, not a proto-accountant (at least for the time being) so I get to worry about equity vs. efficiency, and all that stuff.
The reason I would call it unethical, though, is because Apple is holding back the market from its real potential, bot in technology and in price, in favor of gaining an extra big profit, when they could make just a little bit less of a gigantic profit, and allow the market to grow at a more natural pace.
They have developed for themselves a virtual monopoly, and the ethical thing to do would be to control the market inthe way thatthe market might behave if they did not have control over it.
This can be explained with a completely non-malicious intent, but it's not as much *fun* that way.
FWIW: I do not and will not own an iPhone in its current state. Trendy crap is not for me.
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That business model is harder to leverage in other spaces though, and it's appearing that phones may be one.
We could always reckon it in terms of lost consumer opportunity.
edit: does anyone here actually own an iPhone?
Or there's the third type, like me, that has spent far too much time already learning everything about the phone, and is still considering it, despite the unpleasant move by Apple, because I can't seem to find any better combination of features I want for this price.
I'm not saying thatthey did anythingunethical to get to where they are, just that they have been abusing their position. I also don't think that they are stagnating the market on purpose merely that they are putting making every possible increase in their already bloated bottom line ahead of the overall equity of the market, and that is something which I personally consider to be unethical (from a "fairness" stance, not neccesarily a business stance.)
Honestly, loss of consumer opportunity IS what it boils down to. The reason that the market does react, I believe, has to do with the fact that most of the market doesn't realize what it is missing. It doesn't dawn on them just how much cheaper or more fully featured these devices could be, because the iPod was their introduction to the market in the first place, so that is all thatthey are aquainted with.
The reason that I watch the failures of the iPhones so closely is very much because, as you said, their business model doesn't translate quite right to that market, where consumers are expecting something a little different, and I believe that a backlash there might have the ability to make consumers in the mp3 player market question whether they're getting everything thatthey deserve as well.
I will be your personal shopper.
Tell me what features you want, and I will find you a better deal.
Careful Evander charges anal sex for his services, and he's got like a mushroom with a smurf living in it.
Apple should just go ahead and release the ivagina and give a lot of apple geeks the ability to finally fuck an apple product.
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the issue is that people want the product, and are willing to bear the price, based primarily on the brandname, and not the product itself.
why not?
they've been screwing their customers for so long, it would be only right if they returned the favor.
Before anyone yealls, at me, I'm joking!
An mp3 player with a very sleek and good looking UI, minimum of 8 gb capacity, has very good looking video(not quite a requirement), and plays AAC files(preferably protected as well). A cell phone with a decent keyboard, good-very good web browser, wi-fi capability, good calling quality, easy to use(current phone is a nokia flip phone with terribly tiny buttons). I've thought about a Zune and an HTC phone, but I'm practically guaranteed to pay a higher monthly fee for data with an HTC phone, unless I went with SERO, which has a credit check and I have no credit history. A higher monthly fee is definitely going to make a non-iPhone more expensive, as I'd be paying $35 total with an iPhone.
You keep saying this, over and over, and it doesn't make it any less conjecture. And it's still not unethical, even if this is true.
It's pefectly valid to sell an experience or perceived experience in conjungtion with physical goods or software. If owning an iPhone makes a consumer feel good, that's not unethical.
I'm willing to bet that Apple didn't intentionally undo what the hackers had done. They didn't sit down in their cubicles and say, "Man, how can we fuck over those guys?" They stuck to their own product plan for the software, which happened to break the efforts of hackers, and that's not their concern. They only issued a warning because it's a high profile device that's getting lots of media attention and it covers their backs to point out, to the public, that the only people affected by this update are the ones who put unsupported software on their phones because it was built to be a closed system. You know, like everything else Apple puts on the market.
or Brawl. 4854.6102.3895 Name: NU..
Actually, the iPhone dev team that developed one of the unlocks, stated a very specific and easy way(a secpack?) to undo the unlock before updating the firmware. Assuming they're correct.
I guess we have different sets of ethics (again, I'm talking more about social ethics. In a business sense, I agree thatthey haven't actuallytransgressed anything.)
To me, it feels kind of like Apple is sleeping with a drunk girl, in that consumers really aren't entirely aware ofwhat is going on, butthey see something pretty, and it feels good, so they go along with it, and Apple is aware of the fact that this is what is happening, but rather than giving consumers a chance tomake sure that this is whatthey really want to do, Apple is just pushing ahead asmuch as they can, and taking advantage of the consumers' condition.
As for the selling basedon brand name thingbeing "only conjecture", explain to me why else Apple would have such massive market share DESPITE the fact thatthere are other products out there with more features and/or lower prices.
So "ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE I HATE THE IPOD ETC". Right then.
It would be great to have an iPod/iPhone thread wherein you weren't posting this drivel every second post. Seriously Evander - *yawn*. Your proto-economist bullshit is coming across as incredibly whiney. Essentially you're an "everyone-except-the-iPod-apologist".
If they build it, we will come. Apple makes a good mousetrap, it's up to everyone else to make a better one. You can boo-fucking-hoo over market forces and monopolization and manipulation all you want - Apple came late to the game, did something right and kept doing it right. Nothing would please me more than to see them keep on keeping on. That's capitalism baby, and you need to suck it up hard.
Simplicity, very pleasing aesthetics, an actual marketing budget.
That space difference is important, and I'd incur more cost by buying another couple of cards, plus I'd spend $30 more per month on it so after 7 months, the iPhone starts being cheaper. Also, the helio's screen isn't nearly as good is it? I mean, I welcome the suggestions, I'd love to find a satisfying alternative.
Have you triedgoing ahead and applying for an SERO account? It is possible thatthey might let you through (I got mine with very little credt history) and you always have afew weeks to cancel after getting it.
You ought to see if that is reallyan option for you, because you can make thingsmuchcheaper for yourselfthatway, by either getting a phone and 4 2gig flash cards, or even getting aphone, and then a different brand of mp3 player with 8gigs
The consumer is unaware? What the fuck?
Okay - so it's Apple's fault that you're a dumb, uneducated, trend following sheeple? Apple is supposed to give consumers a "chance to make sure this is what they really want to do"??
"Hi, Welcome to Toyota. Are you really sure you want to buy one of our cars? You can get a Honda that'll be cheaper with better mileage!"
You're blinded by hatred here. Honestly, there are good discussions to be had about the ethics of the iPod economy - just not with you.
Calling customers idiots is not a proper response, no matter how much you couch it in terms of 'social ethics', and strange analogies.
quality != feature lists
By simplicity, do you mean the old "ease of use" myth? Most items I've seen on the market are just as easy to use as an iPod. The Simplicity thingis merely something thatthey've pushed intheir (rather effective) marketing.
The marketing budget, again,just leads to increased brand recognition, which is the whole point I've been making (that it sells based on thebrand, and not the device itself)
Aesthetics is the one arguement that youcould make a case for, but you would have to justify that millions of people, from all manner of walks of life, with such a wide range of interests, ALL happy to find the exact same device to be the most aesthetically pleasing, and that whenever Apple has redesigned the device, they have all just happened to change what pleases them within that instance.
Far more likely is that fashion dictates that "this is what looks good" and people obey that decree, rather than everyone simultaniously deciding that they all like the looks of the exact same thing all at once.
It wasn't correct, it resulted in an IMEI mismatch.
Yes, it might be wise to go ahead and see if I can get that, and I plan on dropping by a Sprint store to try out a Mogul. But I still really don't like the idea of having to switch out memory cards. I already felt that 8 gb was low, and the only reason I'm so hot to get a new mp3 player, is I'm so very tired of constantly switching cds in my car, and being able to switch songs, among a selection of 6-8gb instantly is valuable.
Getting something like a mogul would certainly be the cheaper option IF it satisfied me as a media player, and that's my biggest hesitation with it.
Brand recognition is not the same as buying something because you want to show off that you have an iPod. Many people have no idea that Creative mp3 players exist.
I do think the ipod's hard-structured system would be easier overall than a more open filetree organization system that some other mp3 players have, and then there's iTunes very simple UI. I really don't think it's easy to say whether or not, or how much, the ipod line is successful for its fashion appeal.
I NEVER called customers idiots.
There is a difference between a lack of intelligence and a lack of information. Consumers in the mp3 player market seem to be relatively uninformed, compared to other markets. This is a trend both with new markets (which this one still is) as well ans with technological markets, so the fact that this happens here is no suprise, nor is it any slight against the consumers to point it out.
And I also never said anything about feature lists. I asked for a reason other than brand recognition. Are you implying thatthe iPod has FAR superior quality to every other product on the market? I can tell you, flat out, that this is not true. While the iPod is by no means an inferior product, there are many products with near identical quality, and even some with superior quality.
The fact is, aside from brand recognition (the effects of marketing being a subset of that) there really is no way to logically account for the sheer enormity of the iPod's market share.
if 8 gigs sounds low to you, and your music concern has more to do with your car, then maybe you ought to consider going with something like the mogul, and then getting a larger mp3 player as well, for car use. That way you could keep 2 gigs with you portably (the mogul possibly supposrts up to 4, by some rumors, but definitelyat least 2) and still have more storage for when you are in the car.
As for what other player to get, if your concern there is only music, then you have a wide variety of inexpensive choices in front of you.
Awww, there goes the "Apple is teh evil" mantra. Pity, really.
The recognition there is misleadig.
The point I have been making is that the iPod, which is not, by any means, a BAD device, generally sells based on its brand, and not on the device itself.
There are a variety of permutations as to the "how" here, such as wanting one as a status symbol, or it being the only brand one is aware of, or blindly believing common wisdom that it is the "easiest" device to use, and others. They all add up to the same thing, though, and that puts Apple in a position that I feel they misuse, from my only personal perspective of social ethics.
As for the file system, and all, of the iPod, how many other players have you tried?
Personally, I honestly haven't tried many, but I can honestly say that I have found my Zune to bebotheasier to navigate than my iPod, as well asthe software ebing more user-friendly than iTunes. If easy of use is whateverything comes down to, then the Zune should at least have a slightly larger market share. It is currently in the number 2 place, but it isn't even in the double digits.
If perceived style is a need, then consumers will buy to meet it.
edit: the Zune doesn't "deserve" more market share. If it had been first, it may have earned it. It wasn't. And though I have one and think the brown and green is way sexier than white with no buttons, that's an entirely subjective view.
That article just lead me to think of some conspiracy theories, but I'm going to go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt, and just say that they are handling this well.
Suddenly it all becomes clear.
Yeah, and if I go for a separate mp3 player, there's no longer any price savings, and there's two devices to carry with me instead of one. This is my dilemma.
I certainly don't deny that the brand of the ipod, it being the most recognizable mp3 player brand, plays a big role in its market share. I also say that this is true for what, every product imaginable? Some markets have lesser disparities due to recognition, but it's just the way things are.
Guys, Evander jumps into EVERY iphone/ipod thread and completely and utterley lets loose a bastion of hate upon it.
I think apple killed his parents.
In other news, when can we predict an iPhone v2? Because that's what I want. Hearing all the boohooing about the EDGE network makes me want one, just one that's a 3G edition.