Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I would love it if we just didn't bother but article 50 is going to be executed
I would rather it sooner rather than later so we can get a deal sorted and start putting the pieces back together.
I don't think thats true, doesnt the country leaving have to execute the article? So if the UK backed down it wouldnt be executed
If they backed down it could very likely destabilize the country even more than it already is
Even if they now have buyers remorse, the popular vote declared Leave and if parliament or a re vote overturn that it will only further incite the sizable chunk of Leave voters that were genuine and stand by their beliefs and cause a huge amount of chaos and strife
It would be like if Trump won in November and was the trash fire he undoubtedly would be so he is impeached or we have a re-vote in February
I mean, it was a 52% to 48% victory.
And I think the only solace you could get from a Trump presidency would be his impending, inevitable impeachment.
Yeah but the percentage doesn't matter, the fact that Leave won does.
If they re voted today I have zero doubt Remain would win by a larger margin than Leave did the first time
But it still won and that is all the still large chunk of voters and politicians who still, somehow, think it is a good idea to raise a huge shitstorm about the will of the people either being silence by the government or being manipulated into second guessing it's "true" desires
What would cost more, the unrest caused by whatever actions used to justify staying in the EU, or pulling the trigger on the blasted thing once and for all?
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
It seems to me like a core idea of British nationalism is that Britons are somehow just plain better at civilization than other folk
And because of this stinking affair I've now been thinking about how startlingly common this notion is even in otherwise mostly unbiased historiography
That's kind of a tenet of nationalism period. The specific language may change a bit, but, like, that's the same concept behind America's claim to be the most FREEDOM
There is also nationalism which is based on a perceived inferiority
German nationalism was very much driven by the idea that Germans lacked everything Western European nations possessed
I would love it if we just didn't bother but article 50 is going to be executed
I would rather it sooner rather than later so we can get a deal sorted and start putting the pieces back together.
I don't think thats true, doesnt the country leaving have to execute the article? So if the UK backed down it wouldnt be executed
If they backed down it could very likely destabilize the country even more than it already is
Even if they now have buyers remorse, the popular vote declared Leave and if parliament or a re vote overturn that it will only further incite the sizable chunk of Leave voters that were genuine and stand by their beliefs and cause a huge amount of chaos and strife
It would be like if Trump won in November and was the trash fire he undoubtedly would be so he is impeached or we have a re-vote in February
I mean, it was a 52% to 48% victory.
And I think the only solace you could get from a Trump presidency would be his impending, inevitable impeachment.
Yeah but the percentage doesn't matter, the fact that Leave won does.
If they re voted today I have zero doubt Remain would win by a larger margin than Leave did the first time
But it still won and that is all the still large chunk of voters and politicians who still, somehow, think it is a good idea to raise a huge shitstorm about the will of the people either being silence by the government or being manipulated into second guessing it's "true" desires
What would cost more, the unrest caused by whatever actions used to justify staying in the EU, or pulling the trigger on the blasted thing once and for all?
Isn't that the question?
+4
Options
GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
80% of his Members of Parliament want him gone
How the hell can Labour contest an election with that level of division?
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
I would love it if we just didn't bother but article 50 is going to be executed
I would rather it sooner rather than later so we can get a deal sorted and start putting the pieces back together.
I don't think thats true, doesnt the country leaving have to execute the article? So if the UK backed down it wouldnt be executed
If they backed down it could very likely destabilize the country even more than it already is
Even if they now have buyers remorse, the popular vote declared Leave and if parliament or a re vote overturn that it will only further incite the sizable chunk of Leave voters that were genuine and stand by their beliefs and cause a huge amount of chaos and strife
It would be like if Trump won in November and was the trash fire he undoubtedly would be so he is impeached or we have a re-vote in February
I mean, it was a 52% to 48% victory.
And I think the only solace you could get from a Trump presidency would be his impending, inevitable impeachment.
Yeah but the percentage doesn't matter, the fact that Leave won does.
If they re voted today I have zero doubt Remain would win by a larger margin than Leave did the first time
But it still won and that is all the still large chunk of voters and politicians who still, somehow, think it is a good idea to raise a huge shitstorm about the will of the people either being silence by the government or being manipulated into second guessing it's "true" desires
What would cost more, the unrest caused by whatever actions used to justify staying in the EU, or pulling the trigger on the blasted thing once and for all?
Isn't that the question?
Yeah, basically
Either way Britain is going to be hurt for a long while after this they just get to pick where they get punched
+1
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I would love it if we just didn't bother but article 50 is going to be executed
I would rather it sooner rather than later so we can get a deal sorted and start putting the pieces back together.
I don't think thats true, doesnt the country leaving have to execute the article? So if the UK backed down it wouldnt be executed
If they backed down it could very likely destabilize the country even more than it already is
Even if they now have buyers remorse, the popular vote declared Leave and if parliament or a re vote overturn that it will only further incite the sizable chunk of Leave voters that were genuine and stand by their beliefs and cause a huge amount of chaos and strife
It would be like if Trump won in November and was the trash fire he undoubtedly would be so he is impeached or we have a re-vote in February
I mean, it was a 52% to 48% victory.
And I think the only solace you could get from a Trump presidency would be his impending, inevitable impeachment.
Yeah but the percentage doesn't matter, the fact that Leave won does.
If they re voted today I have zero doubt Remain would win by a larger margin than Leave did the first time
But it still won and that is all the still large chunk of voters and politicians who still, somehow, think it is a good idea to raise a huge shitstorm about the will of the people either being silence by the government or being manipulated into second guessing it's "true" desires
What would cost more, the unrest caused by whatever actions used to justify staying in the EU, or pulling the trigger on the blasted thing once and for all?
Isn't that the question?
Yeah, this is basically what people are trying to figure out, and how to finesse the message to make staying more palatable.
Quick question for y'all - I saw someone a couple days ago saying that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was large enough that since Ireland is in the EU (and thus has the same EU open borders), any actual illegal immigration from the EU to Northern Ireland (and from there to the rest of the UK) would be nigh-impossible to stop without erecting a wall around half the country. Is that at all accurate?
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Even if the EU was open to that, there's no way britain would get to that position within the two year transition period. It took Norway like a generation to get there.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
Well, no. If Article 50 is not invoked, technically and legally nothing happened, except Britain tanked the world's economy for awhile.
Quick question for y'all - I saw someone a couple days ago saying that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was large enough that since Ireland is in the EU (and thus has the same EU open borders), any actual illegal immigration from the EU to Northern Ireland (and from there to the rest of the UK) would be nigh-impossible to stop without erecting a wall around half the country. Is that at all accurate?
The border is THE issue here right now. Officially there are bilateral agreements between the UK/Ireland to keep it open that predate the EU, but Europe may force Ireland to have border controls if we leave the single market. The borders were a pain to get through in my childhood because of the Troubles, and I'd hate them to be closed off because my brother and his family lives in Wicklow.
Quick question for y'all - I saw someone a couple days ago saying that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was large enough that since Ireland is in the EU (and thus has the same EU open borders), any actual illegal immigration from the EU to Northern Ireland (and from there to the rest of the UK) would be nigh-impossible to stop without erecting a wall around half the country. Is that at all accurate?
Ireland isn't part of the Schengen Area
There are actually open borders between Northern Ireland and Ireland
Most people who want to illegally migrate to the UK get stranded in Calais
Platy on
0
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
Well, no. If Article 50 is not invoked, technically and legally nothing happened, except Britain tanked the world's economy for awhile.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Which is whyzython's language confused the shit out of me.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
There is no fucking way in hell we're getting access to the EEA without Freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks we can get all the benefits from the EEA/EU without following the rules lacks a basic understanding of how european politics and economics works.
We need the EEA and the EEA needs us.
Also, this country needs immigration to function. The NHS would be utterly fucked without workers from the EU.
0
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
Well, no. If Article 50 is not invoked, technically and legally nothing happened, except Britain tanked the world's economy for awhile.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Which is whyzython's language confused the shit out of me.
I mean, any future agreements are going to be affected by this, for a multitude of reasons, but Britain's actual status won't change.
Quick question for y'all - I saw someone a couple days ago saying that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was large enough that since Ireland is in the EU (and thus has the same EU open borders), any actual illegal immigration from the EU to Northern Ireland (and from there to the rest of the UK) would be nigh-impossible to stop without erecting a wall around half the country. Is that at all accurate?
Ireland isn't part of the Schengen Area
There are actually open borders between Northern Ireland and Ireland
Most people who want to illegally migrate to the UK get stranded in Calais
Ahh, didn't realize there was a difference in terms of open borders between the UK / Ireland and the rest of the EU. Thanks!
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
It's not an official demand, but the EU isn't going to pretend nothing happened if they don't invoke Article 50. Otherwise, nothing stops France and others from doing the same. They're going to want collateral.
Leave winning the referendum has done massive damage to the EU's reputation. The only way to rebuild that is to show that toying around with this shit isn't condoned. And the EU knows this.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Norway has no political clout in the EU. It has to agree to all the rules/fees of the EEA/EU without any way of influencing how the rules are made, what the money is spent on and who can join.
In no way does us getting the Norway model compromise the integrity of being in the EU,
It would be a downgrade for the UK and an example of why being an actual EU member is better.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
There is no fucking way in hell we're getting access to the EEA without Freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks we can get all the benefits from the EEA/EU without following the rules lacks a basic understanding of how european politics and economics works.
We need the EEA and the EEA needs us.
Also, this country needs immigration to function. The NHS would be utterly fucked without workers from the EU.
No shit, but apparently a vast subset of the population don't understand this at all.
Lets just start the clock so we can transition to a Norway style relationship and be done with it. Then we can rebuild our credit rating etc.
The Brexiters would be incensed over 'Norway' style EEA - still free movement (freer actually since they're in Schengen) and money still being paid to the EU?
There is no fucking way in hell we're getting access to the EEA without Freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks we can get all the benefits from the EEA/EU without following the rules lacks a basic understanding of how european politics and economics works.
We need the EEA and the EEA needs us.
Also, this country needs immigration to function. The NHS would be utterly fucked without workers from the EU.
No shit, but apparently a vast subset of the population don't understand this at all.
They are in for a shock then.
This entire affair was an utter waste of time/money. It's actually going to put quite a few people out of a job before the dust settles.
Possibly the biggest flaw with democracy is that a large percentage of voters don't understand how things work and actively vote against their best interests. The people's right to choose only really works out when the people know what the hell they're doing, and that's nearly impossible on the large scale, what with propaganda existing.
And the worst part is that it's often the informed people who DID vote in their best interests who get the brunt of the consequences.
Possibly the biggest flaw with democracy is that a large percentage of voters don't understand how things work and actively vote against their best interests. The people's right to choose only really works out when the people know what the hell they're doing, and that's nearly impossible on the large scale, what with propaganda existing.
And the worst part is that it's often the informed people who DID vote in their best interests who get the brunt of the consequences.
This is exacerbated by politicians telling people that understanding how things work isn't necessary, perhaps even vilifying the knowledge of how things work. Your gut feelings are more important and "real" than knowledge that others might have.
+5
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I've had family and friends in the UK be harassed (because they are german or italian or just don't look like English purebreeds), some who are worried about losing their jobs and being able to easily visit family in EU countries
oh and my boyfriend took a ~11-15% pay cut because of the pound dropping right when we're planning to move in together
it's strange to have political upheaval in another country affect me so profoundly personally but I guess here we are
Posts
because if so, I am going to have a celebratory drink
(it's weird that I care this much about a politician in a country that I don't live in, but I'm really mad at him for his BS)
What would cost more, the unrest caused by whatever actions used to justify staying in the EU, or pulling the trigger on the blasted thing once and for all?
Oh yeah, good point.
It means they'll have a new leadership election. He could still run again though.
I think his hands are off the wheel for the moment, but nothing stops him entering the leadership challenge to try and get a new mandate.
Isn't that the question?
How the hell can Labour contest an election with that level of division?
The EU won't give the UK a deal like Norway. They can't. Doing so would compromise its integrity, and would threaten a massive walkout by others. Either UK leaves, and they get a shit sandwich, or they stay, and all their exemptions made by the EU are forfeited.
Steam: pazython
Either way Britain is going to be hurt for a long while after this they just get to pick where they get punched
Yeah, this is basically what people are trying to figure out, and how to finesse the message to make staying more palatable.
Whoa, I missed the part where the can only stay in the EU by forfeiting their exceptions
Even if the EU was open to that, there's no way britain would get to that position within the two year transition period. It took Norway like a generation to get there.
Well, no. If Article 50 is not invoked, technically and legally nothing happened, except Britain tanked the world's economy for awhile.
We'd lend you one but we're fresh outta paddles
The border is THE issue here right now. Officially there are bilateral agreements between the UK/Ireland to keep it open that predate the EU, but Europe may force Ireland to have border controls if we leave the single market. The borders were a pain to get through in my childhood because of the Troubles, and I'd hate them to be closed off because my brother and his family lives in Wicklow.
Ireland isn't part of the Schengen Area
There are actually open borders between Northern Ireland and Ireland
Most people who want to illegally migrate to the UK get stranded in Calais
Yeah, that's what I thought. Which is whyzython's language confused the shit out of me.
There is no fucking way in hell we're getting access to the EEA without Freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks we can get all the benefits from the EEA/EU without following the rules lacks a basic understanding of how european politics and economics works.
We need the EEA and the EEA needs us.
Also, this country needs immigration to function. The NHS would be utterly fucked without workers from the EU.
I mean, any future agreements are going to be affected by this, for a multitude of reasons, but Britain's actual status won't change.
Ahh, didn't realize there was a difference in terms of open borders between the UK / Ireland and the rest of the EU. Thanks!
It's not an official demand, but the EU isn't going to pretend nothing happened if they don't invoke Article 50. Otherwise, nothing stops France and others from doing the same. They're going to want collateral.
Leave winning the referendum has done massive damage to the EU's reputation. The only way to rebuild that is to show that toying around with this shit isn't condoned. And the EU knows this.
Steam: pazython
Norway has no political clout in the EU. It has to agree to all the rules/fees of the EEA/EU without any way of influencing how the rules are made, what the money is spent on and who can join.
In no way does us getting the Norway model compromise the integrity of being in the EU,
It would be a downgrade for the UK and an example of why being an actual EU member is better.
No shit, but apparently a vast subset of the population don't understand this at all.
They are in for a shock then.
This entire affair was an utter waste of time/money. It's actually going to put quite a few people out of a job before the dust settles.
And the worst part is that it's often the informed people who DID vote in their best interests who get the brunt of the consequences.
fuck everything
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/british-fishermen-warned-brexit-will-not-mean-greater-catches
This is exacerbated by politicians telling people that understanding how things work isn't necessary, perhaps even vilifying the knowledge of how things work. Your gut feelings are more important and "real" than knowledge that others might have.
Have any of Leave's campaign promises been remotely true?
beware the people that say very complex things are actually simple and they have all the answers
"Cure-alls cure nothing "
Leave was generally a right-wing populist push to promote nationalistic isolationism.
So no.
Steam: pazython
I've had family and friends in the UK be harassed (because they are german or italian or just don't look like English purebreeds), some who are worried about losing their jobs and being able to easily visit family in EU countries
oh and my boyfriend took a ~11-15% pay cut because of the pound dropping right when we're planning to move in together
it's strange to have political upheaval in another country affect me so profoundly personally but I guess here we are