We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
Elia Martell was married to Rhaegar, and was sister to Oberyn and Doran. The mountain raped and killed her in the final bits of Robert's Rebellion - long before the events of the show.
Allegedly.
He confessed as he was crushing oberyn's skull.
Allegedly married, I believe.
They had two children together, they were married for years. It's alleged, though considered true I guess after this season's revelations, that they divorced.
We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
Too late? All Cersei does is win.
The second hottest, smartest, winingest person in Westeros is always telling her that from the mirror where Cersei imprisoned her as a child.
Ellaria Sand murdered an innocent teenage girl for the crimes of her grandfather's sworn knight
She can get fucked. Oberyn put Gregor in the ground and then fucked it up like a knob, and that's your blood feud done. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes decided to pick it up again and do some child murderin' and well, okay then, but you live by the sword you die by the sword.
We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
Too late? All Cersei does is win.
The second hottest, smartest, winingest person in Westeros is always telling her that from the mirror where Cersei imprisoned her as a child.
Ellaria Sand murdered an innocent teenage girl for the crimes of her grandfather's sworn knight
She can get fucked. Oberyn put Gregor in the ground and then fucked it up like a knob, and that's your blood feud done. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes decided to pick it up again and do some child murderin' and well, okay then, but you live by the sword you die by the sword.
I believe Bookeryn had expected
that the poison should have disabled him, but his poppy addicition / tolerance rendered it less effective? Not sure if that's pure fanwank or was something Qyburn deduced though.
We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
So you are OK with another woman murdering one of this series' honest-to-god innocents in the coldest of blood? I don't think you have the moral high ground here.
Not that there is much moral high ground to be had in GoT.
We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
Too late? All Cersei does is win.
The second hottest, smartest, winingest person in Westeros is always telling her that from the mirror where Cersei imprisoned her as a child.
I'mma let that "wine-ing-est" typo stand.
Truly the Houdini-ist of the Karma Houdinis.
She's still blaming other people for the death of her youngest son. You know, the one she obviously drove to suicide after she blew up everything that mattered to him.
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We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
So you are OK with another woman murdering one of this series' honest-to-god innocents in the coldest of blood? I don't think you have the moral high ground here.
Not that there is much moral high ground to be had in GoT.
My post started as a jab at the showrunners and you got all goosey about it and got my hackles up. I never claimed to have moral high ground. I admitted they both have crimes. I hate one worse.
Wards are a strange thing in Westeros. Technically it wasnt murder for Dorne to do what they did.
Im pretty sure it was murder because the ruling prince said it was murder
and then they murdered him
its murder all the way down
Perhaps bookish spoilers:
Wards dont have guest rights in Westeros. Myrcella was given by Tyrion as ward to make sure Dorne and the Lannisters would 'cooperate'. When they tried to take her back by force they broke that ancient rule.
So in essence it doesnt matter WTF Joff said they were within their rights.
Eh. As I said in the spoiler it is not that easy. Doran's reaction was just because he was a slow schemer and a bit of a pansy as he was written in the show. You are beholden of your banner men and Tywin released the Clegane knowing full well he would rape and murder the women and the kids. Taking a ward by force is also essentially stealing your property.
Myrcella was never their ward.
She was sent to dorne to be their guest specifically and as betrothed to trystane. If she was anyone's ward, it was of the kingsguard knight who accompanied her.
Ward-dom also really wouldn't apply when it's a member of a ruling family staying with a subordinate's family.
Yes. Sometimes.
Not really a spoiler, but when in Rome:
It's used punitively, such as Theon being sent to be a ward of the Starks to keep Pyke in line; but also in the same way a marriage is used to cement alliances. Ned and Robert were wards of Hoster Tully*, but this was to endear the houses to each other, rather than giving Tully a gun to hold their heads.
*Or the Arryns, maybe? Erie or Riverlands. One of those.
Some wards who are held as political prisoners (theon to the starks) are forbidden from being taken back to their home without the host lord's consent.
Wards who go voluntarily to another family, like myrcella to the martells, are not beholden to the same regulations as hostage-wards.
Regardless, Wards fall under the protection of the host lord. Doran publicly stated that he did not approve or consent to myrcella being killed.
It was murder. It's really not debateable, it's not a cloudy determination. Myrcella was 0% owned by the martells nor was her life and death under their legal purview at any point in time.
She was sent to be betrothed to trystane, and by extension lead to peace between lannister and martell.
Tyrion didn't give a damn about cersei or joffrey, but he loved myrcella and tommen with all his heart. He would never have sent either of them to a potentially hostile house if that house could even be assumed to have the slightest control over their lives.
She was sent to be betrothed to trystane, and by extension lead to peace between lannister and martell.
Tyrion didn't give a damn about cersei or joffrey, but he loved myrcella and tommen with all his heart. He would never have sent either of them to a potentially hostile house if that house could even be assumed to have the slightest control over their lives.
In the book its a bit more involved than what went down in the show.
So essentially yes he did know he was sending her to a hostile environment because Cersei. He had to offer up an individual to Dorne to garner the peace. There were games beween Varys. Tyrion and Cersei that ended with him being forced to sent Myrecella to Dorne. He initially planned to marry her to the Vale. He was going to send Tommen to Dorne.
And it was always implied/known as ward status with the chance of the resulting issues if they wronged Dorne (or they found out about the Clegane).
If you send someone to get married then that's not really the same
Because they then join the new family, or at least, Myrcella would take the Martell name. She wouldn't be a hostage she'd be Trystan's wife. Not the same. You don't murder your wife in response to dodgy play from her old family because, like, she's your wife and Westeros has massive taboos on kinslaying and such.
The marriage was secondary. The primary reason was so they wouldnt join Stannis. As a hostage so they wouldnt join against them when they were weak. And once they were in a position of power again (the Lannisters) they tried to take her back by force. And the heir of Dorne as well.
She was sent to be betrothed to trystane, and by extension lead to peace between lannister and martell.
Tyrion didn't give a damn about cersei or joffrey, but he loved myrcella and tommen with all his heart. He would never have sent either of them to a potentially hostile house if that house could even be assumed to have the slightest control over their lives.
In the book its a bit more involved than what went down in the show.
So essentially yes he did know he was sending her to a hostile environment because Cersei. He had to offer up an individual to Dorne to garner the peace. There were games beween Varys. Tyrion and Cersei that ended with him being forced to sent Myrecella to Dorne. He initially planned to marry her to the Vale. He was going to send Tommen to Dorne.
And it was always implied/known as ward status with the chance of the resulting issues if they wronged Dorne.
Book v show
The Book scheme Tyrion played on varys, littlefinger and pycelle was:
- He gave two copies of a sealed letter to pycelle to send to dorne, never telling him what was in them. These letters said that he was offering myrcella to trystane.
- He told littlefinger that he was going to wed myrcella to robert arryn
- Varys' little birds heard the conversation with littlefinger, but varys gave no indication he knew exactly what was in the letters tyrion gave to pycelle.
In the tv show, he tells pycelle that he intends to marry myrcella to trystane, he tells littlefinger he intends to marry myrcella to robyn arryn, and he tells varys he intends to marry myrcella to theon.
There was no true, original, or desired plan there. He would go with whichever became public first.
BUT while there's no definite intended plan, there was only one of them which tyrion stuck around long enough to ensure it had been sent out. - that's myrcella being sent to wed trystane.
And all of that is still entirely inconsequential.
Myrcella was sent to be wed to trystane, not as a hostage-ward.
Myrcella was under Doran's protection.
Doran did not consent to Myrcella's death.
Myrcella was murdered. Still, there is no debate to it.
Yes. Sometimes.
Not really a spoiler, but when in Rome:
It's used punitively, such as Theon being sent to be a ward of the Starks to keep Pyke in line; but also in the same way a marriage is used to cement alliances. Ned and Robert were wards of Hoster Tully*, but this was to endear the houses to each other, rather than giving Tully a gun to hold their heads.
*Or the Arryns, maybe? Erie or Riverlands. One of those.
It's not a spoiler, so I won't spoil it
Ned and Robert were wards of Jon Arryn at the Erie. Hence, why they were so upset when he was killed, starting the whole story. Also, likely the namesake of Jon Snow (though I don't know that for sure).
Littlefinger was the one who was a ward of Hoster Tully, thus his childhood with Cat and her sister.
We don't need to see Elia Martell Ellaria Sand again.
She killed an innocent kid, and got her just fuckin' desserts. I'm good with that.
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
So you are OK with another woman murdering one of this series' honest-to-god innocents in the coldest of blood? I don't think you have the moral high ground here.
Not that there is much moral high ground to be had in GoT.
My post started as a jab at the showrunners and you got all goosey about it and got my hackles up. I never claimed to have moral high ground. I admitted they both have crimes. I hate one worse.
Stating that the Sands got exactly what was coming to them, and that there was no need for them to be on screen again, was me being goosey?
Nevermind. No good will come from continuing this.
I mean, the same thing happened in actual medieval/renaissance foreign policy; children would be sent to live essentially as well-kept hostages in foreign countries both to advance their education/knowledge of those countries and as a hedge against hostilities. When a treaty might only last as long as the current king and international norms are basically nonexistent, familial bonds were used as a proxy for those things.
I'm pretty sure GoT even directly explains this, at least w/r/t theon
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
One of my favorite moments in Season Six, which I am confident will amount to nothing, was the two minutes of bromance between Gendry and Jon Snow.
Gendry immediately gives up the ghost, because, fuck it why not? He's waited for something more in his life for years and decided to roll the dice.
It had a 'Robert and Ned: Electric Boogaloo' feel to it.
Anyway, I hope Gendry takes Storm's End as Warden of the ....East? West? When this is all done.
The last Lord Paramount of the Stormlands jumped to his death, so that title is up for grabs, but the Warden of the East is young Robert Arryn. I don't know if Gendry has what it takes* to wrest that title from him.
I mean, the same thing happened in actual medieval/renaissance foreign policy; children would be sent to live essentially as well-kept hostages in foreign countries both to advance their education/knowledge of those countries and as a hedge against hostilities. When a treaty might only last as long as the current king and international norms are basically nonexistent, familial bonds were used as a proxy for those things.
I'm pretty sure GoT even directly explains this, at least w/r/t theon
That was a pretty big motivation for why Theon betrayed the Starks.
Everyone was telling him how great the Starks were treating him and how lucky he was that he was a ward in Winterfell. But he was still a prisoner. He was taken from his real family against his will. He was being used to pay for the crimes of his father. He was there to serve as insurance in case his father betrayed the peace treaty. They'll cut his head off if his father went to war. And he was hated by his own family even though none of it was his fault. That's where so much of his resentment came from.
Posts
Sorry, no matter her crimes having her incarcerated indicates a "win" from the most evil woman in the show. I am not OK with Cersei getting to go to her grave knowing she "won" anything.
They had two children together, they were married for years. It's alleged, though considered true I guess after this season's revelations, that they divorced.
Too late? All Cersei does is win.
The second hottest, smartest, winingest person in Westeros is always telling her that from the mirror where Cersei imprisoned her as a child.
I'mma let that "wine-ing-est" typo stand.
She can get fucked. Oberyn put Gregor in the ground and then fucked it up like a knob, and that's your blood feud done. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes decided to pick it up again and do some child murderin' and well, okay then, but you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Book:
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I believe Bookeryn had expected
So you are OK with another woman murdering one of this series' honest-to-god innocents in the coldest of blood? I don't think you have the moral high ground here.
Not that there is much moral high ground to be had in GoT.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
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Truly the Houdini-ist of the Karma Houdinis.
She's still blaming other people for the death of her youngest son. You know, the one she obviously drove to suicide after she blew up everything that mattered to him.
Myrcella?
Oops - misread and thought he was referring to Tyene.
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My post started as a jab at the showrunners and you got all goosey about it and got my hackles up. I never claimed to have moral high ground. I admitted they both have crimes. I hate one worse.
Im pretty sure it was murder because the ruling prince said it was murder
and then they murdered him
its murder all the way down
Perhaps bookish spoilers:
So in essence it doesnt matter WTF Joff said they were within their rights.
And it was HIghgarden that murdered Joff.
that's pretty murdery!
She was sent to dorne to be their guest specifically and as betrothed to trystane. If she was anyone's ward, it was of the kingsguard knight who accompanied her.
Ward-dom also really wouldn't apply when it's a member of a ruling family staying with a subordinate's family.
Yes. Sometimes.
Not really a spoiler, but when in Rome:
*Or the Arryns, maybe? Erie or Riverlands. One of those.
Yeah. Like Theon was a noble ward for the Starks.
Some wards who are held as political prisoners (theon to the starks) are forbidden from being taken back to their home without the host lord's consent.
Wards who go voluntarily to another family, like myrcella to the martells, are not beholden to the same regulations as hostage-wards.
Regardless, Wards fall under the protection of the host lord. Doran publicly stated that he did not approve or consent to myrcella being killed.
It was murder. It's really not debateable, it's not a cloudy determination. Myrcella was 0% owned by the martells nor was her life and death under their legal purview at any point in time.
Tyrion didn't give a damn about cersei or joffrey, but he loved myrcella and tommen with all his heart. He would never have sent either of them to a potentially hostile house if that house could even be assumed to have the slightest control over their lives.
In the book its a bit more involved than what went down in the show.
And it was always implied/known as ward status with the chance of the resulting issues if they wronged Dorne (or they found out about the Clegane).
Because they then join the new family, or at least, Myrcella would take the Martell name. She wouldn't be a hostage she'd be Trystan's wife. Not the same. You don't murder your wife in response to dodgy play from her old family because, like, she's your wife and Westeros has massive taboos on kinslaying and such.
Book v show
- He gave two copies of a sealed letter to pycelle to send to dorne, never telling him what was in them. These letters said that he was offering myrcella to trystane.
- He told littlefinger that he was going to wed myrcella to robert arryn
- Varys' little birds heard the conversation with littlefinger, but varys gave no indication he knew exactly what was in the letters tyrion gave to pycelle.
In the tv show, he tells pycelle that he intends to marry myrcella to trystane, he tells littlefinger he intends to marry myrcella to robyn arryn, and he tells varys he intends to marry myrcella to theon.
There was no true, original, or desired plan there. He would go with whichever became public first.
BUT while there's no definite intended plan, there was only one of them which tyrion stuck around long enough to ensure it had been sent out. - that's myrcella being sent to wed trystane.
And all of that is still entirely inconsequential.
Myrcella was sent to be wed to trystane, not as a hostage-ward.
Myrcella was under Doran's protection.
Doran did not consent to Myrcella's death.
Myrcella was murdered. Still, there is no debate to it.
The primay reason was peace.
The *public* reason was marriage.
Public reason is what matters when the legality of her status with the martells is concerned.
It's not a spoiler, so I won't spoil it
Ned and Robert were wards of Jon Arryn at the Erie. Hence, why they were so upset when he was killed, starting the whole story. Also, likely the namesake of Jon Snow (though I don't know that for sure).
Littlefinger was the one who was a ward of Hoster Tully, thus his childhood with Cat and her sister.
NSF56K
This is goddamn amazing.
e: Huh. Didn't realize these embedded, too.
Stating that the Sands got exactly what was coming to them, and that there was no need for them to be on screen again, was me being goosey?
Nevermind. No good will come from continuing this.
I'm pretty sure GoT even directly explains this, at least w/r/t theon
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The latest Mutant Football League build is looking amazing!
Gendry immediately gives up the ghost, because, fuck it why not? He's waited for something more in his life for years and decided to roll the dice.
It had a 'Robert and Ned: Electric Boogaloo' feel to it.
Anyway, I hope Gendry takes Storm's End as Warden of the ....East? West? When this is all done.
The last Lord Paramount of the Stormlands jumped to his death, so that title is up for grabs, but the Warden of the East is young Robert Arryn. I don't know if Gendry has what it takes* to wrest that title from him.
*(Candy, probably.)
Could do with a few episodes of Jon and Gendry rolling around murdering zombies.
I also took exception with the fact that Gendry was the 'fastest', except, yeah when you look at alll the other old fuckers he was with.
What's that? *quick google search* Huh.
I would have went with Blood Bowl, especially for that career ending injury :P
That was a pretty big motivation for why Theon betrayed the Starks.
Everyone was telling him how great the Starks were treating him and how lucky he was that he was a ward in Winterfell. But he was still a prisoner. He was taken from his real family against his will. He was being used to pay for the crimes of his father. He was there to serve as insurance in case his father betrayed the peace treaty. They'll cut his head off if his father went to war. And he was hated by his own family even though none of it was his fault. That's where so much of his resentment came from.