I would love, love, love competitions with final smashes and items on to see how competitors are able to deal with chaos and the unexpected. Matches would have to be (at least) two out of three of course, but it would totally be workable. Poker tournaments are a thing.
I am totally on-board with the arguments against items
If both players agree not to use them there's no real difference between ignoring/wasting the final smashes and turning them off via toggle. If they go in both prepared to fight over the ball, it changes what kind of match they are playing (into a worse one from the typical competitive viewpoint). If you agree to not use it, and then do use it because having that element of surprise and one-sided advantage was the Non-Scrub Sirlin Says Play to Win option, then you played the worst match of all and "won" a match that no one would think counted for anything.
If competitive players are traveling and waiting like three hours to play for 4 minutes probably they are aiming to get a preview as to the game they're actually going to be playing.
I would love, love, love competitions with final smashes and items on to see how competitors are able to deal with chaos and the unexpected. Matches would have to be (at least) two out of three of course, but it would totally be workable. Poker tournaments are a thing.
Items in tournaments have been tried. And not just "oh turn them on" but really deep dives that ban specific items to keep things fair. It still didn't work. EVO 2008 had items on for Brawl, and people hated it.
I will never understand why people think that, because some competitive games have random elements, we need to shove them into other games. Nothing will kill interest in competitive faster than a player winning because a killer item spawned next to them right after they knocked their opponent off the stage.
I would love, love, love competitions with final smashes and items on to see how competitors are able to deal with chaos and the unexpected. Matches would have to be (at least) two out of three of course, but it would totally be workable. Poker tournaments are a thing.
Items in tournaments have been tried. And not just "oh turn them on" but really deep dives that ban specific items to keep things fair. It still didn't work. EVO 2008 had items on for Brawl, and people hated it.
I will never understand why people think that, because some competitive games have random elements, we need to shove them into other games. Nothing will kill interest in competitive faster than a player winning because a killer item spawned next to them right after they knocked their opponent off the stage.
I don't know, I find that kind of stuff exciting and really adds to the game. And I don't think it's "shoving" when it's already built into the game. But maybe I'm weird.
cloudeagle on
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
items can be fun when you're a spectator, and are nearly always terrible when you're playing*
as usual the competitive community will figure out what rules they want to use and I'm 100% certain it will include no items, no smash balls, and probably no rage if able
and we're gonna see some experimentation with metered final smashes, I bet; I suspect it will be decided they don't really add anything worthwhile
*provided you're trying to take the game seriously as a skill-based competition, obviously there is a spectrum of play here in parts of which items are very welcome
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
You don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger and you don't turn items on in competitive Smash.
Aside from randomness, I think the best argument against items it that it "normalizes" all the characters. The gameplay of running after an item and then throwing it is not very interesting. What makes competitive Smash interesting is the interaction of different characters' unique fighting styles. Items only obscure that rather than improving it.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
edited October 2018
I think it's a really neat idea that probably should have been introduced in Brawl and I'm definitely excited to try it but depending on how meter builds I think it might just be a snowballing mechanic
but then, lots of other games have super meters and are better for it, so who knows
What about how everyone can shield and grab and roll and dodge and ledge grab and walk around and jump and have air control, why don't those count as normalizing the characters too much? It's just the randomness.
I'm going to push very hard for meter final smashes if we get some tourneys going on this board I tell you what.
It would be down right irresponsible of the community to not try out some various modes this time around. I do some TOing in my area, and im certainly following a lot of rules stuff right now. I'm super worried people are going to try and cut stages for no real reason.
What about how everyone can shield and grab and roll and dodge and ledge grab and walk around and jump and have air control, why don't those count as normalizing the characters too much? It's just the randomness.
grabs jumps and dodges all work differently depending on the character~
but the real reason is that items are good options, eclipsing the rest of the character's moves
as a toy example, imagine pokeballs on high - the game is now almost entirely get and throw pokeball, which all characters do the same
trust competitive smash players to be big babies every time I guess
Like, I am super into the competitive Smash scene. I am totally on-board with the arguments against items (though I do think that more stages need to be legal and the damage ratio setting ought to be used to speed the game up). But you play the game by the rules you're given. If Smash Balls are on, throwing away your Final Smashes because they're "anti-competitive" is fucking scrubby.
I don't think any of these games are money matches so it doesn't matter.
I'm going to push very hard for meter final smashes if we get some tourneys going on this board I tell you what.
Absolutely. I don't think we ever replicated the "standard" ruleset because people preferred three stocks over two. We also experimented with custom moves, and we'll do the same for smash meters. If enough people like it, then we'll keep it regardless of what the greater community decides on.
What about how everyone can shield and grab and roll and dodge and ledge grab and walk around and jump and have air control, why don't those count as normalizing the characters too much? It's just the randomness.
The frame data and damage parameters are identical across all characters (though I acknowledge that battering items have different swing animations), and typically better than what they have natively. So if an item is on the stage, you want to be the one who gets it and attacks with it, if only to deny its use to the enemy. That means the significance of your character selection mostly exists in the space between item attacks, because using the item, if available, is the best move. Everyone has the same basic gestures, sure, but when items get involved they don't just have the same basic gestures, they have the same parameters. That's what it means for items to "normalize" the characters.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
I'm going to push very hard for meter final smashes if we get some tourneys going on this board I tell you what.
It would be down right irresponsible of the community to not try out some various modes this time around. I do some TOing in my area, and im certainly following a lot of rules stuff right now. I'm super worried people are going to try and cut stages for no real reason.
IIRC you can turn off stage mechanics now, which should open up a lot of tourney legal options.
What about how everyone can shield and grab and roll and dodge and ledge grab and walk around and jump and have air control, why don't those count as normalizing the characters too much? It's just the randomness.
grabs jumps and dodges all work differently depending on the character~
but the real reason is that items are good options, eclipsing the rest of the character's moves
as a toy example, imagine pokeballs on high - the game is now almost entirely get and throw pokeball, which all characters do the same
I'm imagining an example where any option is better than grabbing the Gust Bellows and I can't do it, it's not happening
I'm going to push very hard for meter final smashes if we get some tourneys going on this board I tell you what.
It would be down right irresponsible of the community to not try out some various modes this time around. I do some TOing in my area, and im certainly following a lot of rules stuff right now. I'm super worried people are going to try and cut stages for no real reason.
IIRC you can turn off stage mechanics now, which should open up a lot of tourney legal options.
that's what i mean though, people are STILL talking about having only 9 legal stages even with the hazard toggle... even though it's looking like there are really more like 30+ viable stages.
An extremely small but razor-honed one, I would assume??? I last played it at the start of the year and could not hang with anyone after a few days of focused practice, it was dispiriting
Like Splatoon on the WiiU, ARMS feels like a game that, if I were at a different point in my life right now, I would be so into. But I'm just not there for it, so I can admire it from afar.
“I went out of my way to play games I didn’t like or find interesting. Those ended up being a lot more informative for me. At home I have literally thousands of games, and I think of them as pearls of wisdom from my predecessors. Game development is very difficult. Nobody sets out to create a game that’s not fun. It’s all of the challenges and difficulties that happen throughout development that determine whether a game is a failure or a success. I think playing those thousands of games is the single best and easiest way to learn from my predecessors.”
Sakurai often watches pro Smash tournaments online. “The one thing I always think is that, if only they used more different stages and items, there’d be a lot more variety in the gameplay,” he says.
“If we were to lean towards one kind of player or the other … game development would be easier, but forgoing the pros, or forgoing the beginners, wouldn’t result in Smash as it is now, and that’s something I hold dear and important,” he says.
Along with the usual waffling on how much he wants to keep working.
“I went out of my way to play games I didn’t like or find interesting. Those ended up being a lot more informative for me. At home I have literally thousands of games, and I think of them as pearls of wisdom from my predecessors. Game development is very difficult. Nobody sets out to create a game that’s not fun. It’s all of the challenges and difficulties that happen throughout development that determine whether a game is a failure or a success. I think playing those thousands of games is the single best and easiest way to learn from my predecessors.”
Sakurai often watches pro Smash tournaments online. “The one thing I always think is that, if only they used more different stages and items, there’d be a lot more variety in the gameplay,” he says.
“If we were to lean towards one kind of player or the other … game development would be easier, but forgoing the pros, or forgoing the beginners, wouldn’t result in Smash as it is now, and that’s something I hold dear and important,” he says.
Along with the usual waffling on how much he wants to keep working.
Regarding the last bit, I completely agree that trying to cater to everyone makes smash a better game, because everything is toggleable or customizable. And that's rarely true of games, especially competitive ones. You can really use the settings to hone the type of experience that you want, and I think that leads to a better game for everyone.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
Evidentially this song ends Music Theory, which I did not follow and don’t know the specifics of, I think it was something like one song per series, one song per week, means this many serieses
1) That the music posts would never double up by series, and
2) That any series with a newcomer introduced by CG trailer would have its music track posted only after that character's announcement.
The second point was supported by the delay in the Direct where they announced Isabelle; the site's back-end files have a visible numeric ordering that suddenly went out of order when the Direct was delayed, which meant they were saving the Animal Crossing track for after Isabelle's announcement.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Music theory was basically: where is the xenoblade stuff? There is no xenoblade stuff covered in the blog yet. Could they be holding it for an Elma reveal?
And then those other rules were added to give it more weight and include other series.
But really where is the xenoblade stuff? I refuse to believe that there's not going to be at least a new assist trophy or remix.
Music theory was basically: where is the xenoblade stuff? There is no xenoblade stuff covered in the blog yet. Could they be holding it for an Elma reveal?
And then those other rules were added to give it more weight and include other series.
But really where is the xenoblade stuff? I refuse to believe that there's not going to be at least a new assist trophy or remix.
Well we could be getting the battle music from X. Maybe they want to hold that reveal for when we think maybe there's one last character left and really crush our hopes
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Music theory was basically: where is the xenoblade stuff? There is no xenoblade stuff covered in the blog yet. Could they be holding it for an Elma reveal?
And then those other rules were added to give it more weight and include other series.
But really where is the xenoblade stuff? I refuse to believe that there's not going to be at least a new assist trophy or remix.
Even with the new game I wouldn't hold your breath for a new character -- with only two games in the series that doesn't make a big case for more representation (Mother/Earthbound stuff aside). But as always, Sakurai be Sakurai.
Though I'd be shocked if we didn't get at least a little more Xenoblade music. I wouldn't worry yet -- there's a lot of series skipped over in the music samples so far.
Even with the new game I wouldn't hold your breath for a new character -- with only two games in the series that doesn't make a big case for more representation (Mother/Earthbound stuff aside). But as always, Sakurai be Sakurai.
Though I'd be shocked if we didn't get at least a little more Xenoblade music. I wouldn't worry yet -- there's a lot of series skipped over in the music samples so far.
I expected Elma as an assist trophy, seems like a perfect candidate for one, but she hasn't been shown yet. And so I cant help think ...maybe.
Also the series has four games now. Five if we count the new3DS port. Not that that means anything to the whims of Sakurai.
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If both players agree not to use them there's no real difference between ignoring/wasting the final smashes and turning them off via toggle. If they go in both prepared to fight over the ball, it changes what kind of match they are playing (into a worse one from the typical competitive viewpoint). If you agree to not use it, and then do use it because having that element of surprise and one-sided advantage was the Non-Scrub Sirlin Says Play to Win option, then you played the worst match of all and "won" a match that no one would think counted for anything.
If competitive players are traveling and waiting like three hours to play for 4 minutes probably they are aiming to get a preview as to the game they're actually going to be playing.
I will never understand why people think that, because some competitive games have random elements, we need to shove them into other games. Nothing will kill interest in competitive faster than a player winning because a killer item spawned next to them right after they knocked their opponent off the stage.
I don't know, I find that kind of stuff exciting and really adds to the game. And I don't think it's "shoving" when it's already built into the game. But maybe I'm weird.
as usual the competitive community will figure out what rules they want to use and I'm 100% certain it will include no items, no smash balls, and probably no rage if able
and we're gonna see some experimentation with metered final smashes, I bet; I suspect it will be decided they don't really add anything worthwhile
*provided you're trying to take the game seriously as a skill-based competition, obviously there is a spectrum of play here in parts of which items are very welcome
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger and you don't turn items on in competitive Smash.
but then, lots of other games have super meters and are better for it, so who knows
It would be down right irresponsible of the community to not try out some various modes this time around. I do some TOing in my area, and im certainly following a lot of rules stuff right now. I'm super worried people are going to try and cut stages for no real reason.
grabs jumps and dodges all work differently depending on the character~
but the real reason is that items are good options, eclipsing the rest of the character's moves
as a toy example, imagine pokeballs on high - the game is now almost entirely get and throw pokeball, which all characters do the same
Absolutely. I don't think we ever replicated the "standard" ruleset because people preferred three stocks over two. We also experimented with custom moves, and we'll do the same for smash meters. If enough people like it, then we'll keep it regardless of what the greater community decides on.
The frame data and damage parameters are identical across all characters (though I acknowledge that battering items have different swing animations), and typically better than what they have natively. So if an item is on the stage, you want to be the one who gets it and attacks with it, if only to deny its use to the enemy. That means the significance of your character selection mostly exists in the space between item attacks, because using the item, if available, is the best move. Everyone has the same basic gestures, sure, but when items get involved they don't just have the same basic gestures, they have the same parameters. That's what it means for items to "normalize" the characters.
IIRC you can turn off stage mechanics now, which should open up a lot of tourney legal options.
I'm imagining an example where any option is better than grabbing the Gust Bellows and I can't do it, it's not happening
that's what i mean though, people are STILL talking about having only 9 legal stages even with the hazard toggle... even though it's looking like there are really more like 30+ viable stages.
bandanas are the prize at this upcoming nintendo tournament
therefore waddle dee confirmed
this does not invalid the almighty box as he will be a palutena clone
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
Along with the usual waffling on how much he wants to keep working.
I in turn will insist all Wiiu stages are banned simply for being bad and boring
Regarding the last bit, I completely agree that trying to cater to everyone makes smash a better game, because everything is toggleable or customizable. And that's rarely true of games, especially competitive ones. You can really use the settings to hone the type of experience that you want, and I think that leads to a better game for everyone.
Toon Link just totally picking Bayonetta apart. That Bayo player is a former Evo champ too.
Evidentially this song ends Music Theory, which I did not follow and don’t know the specifics of, I think it was something like one song per series, one song per week, means this many serieses
1) That the music posts would never double up by series, and
2) That any series with a newcomer introduced by CG trailer would have its music track posted only after that character's announcement.
The second point was supported by the delay in the Direct where they announced Isabelle; the site's back-end files have a visible numeric ordering that suddenly went out of order when the Direct was delayed, which meant they were saving the Animal Crossing track for after Isabelle's announcement.
Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
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I do wonder if Jigglypuff will get a new smash?
And then those other rules were added to give it more weight and include other series.
But really where is the xenoblade stuff? I refuse to believe that there's not going to be at least a new assist trophy or remix.
Well we could be getting the battle music from X. Maybe they want to hold that reveal for when we think maybe there's one last character left and really crush our hopes
Nope. But she does have wonderful new facial expressions during it (especially how relieved she looks when she deflates):
Even with the new game I wouldn't hold your breath for a new character -- with only two games in the series that doesn't make a big case for more representation (Mother/Earthbound stuff aside). But as always, Sakurai be Sakurai.
Though I'd be shocked if we didn't get at least a little more Xenoblade music. I wouldn't worry yet -- there's a lot of series skipped over in the music samples so far.
That annoys me a little. Hyper Voice would be better and could have a similar effect
I expected Elma as an assist trophy, seems like a perfect candidate for one, but she hasn't been shown yet. And so I cant help think ...maybe.
Also the series has four games now. Five if we count the new3DS port. Not that that means anything to the whims of Sakurai.
Torna is sold standalone. It's short but technically complete. Relies on knowing the worldbuilding from 2 though.
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