i would just burn the united states to the ground and laugh
Without Capitalism, there would be no video games.
Tetris.
The only reason the game ever left Russia and became known by anyone at all is due to capitalism. Russia saw an opportunity to make some money so several different companies ended up squabbling over the rights and publishing it elsewhere.
The lack of capitalism is the reason Alexey Pajitnov saw absolutely no personal gain from his incredible creation. It belonged to the state and they gave him nothing.
For one, the rule that Blitzchung broke is the "don't do anything we don't approve of" rule. That's a normal catchall clause to include in the rules because it lets the company enforce stuff at their discretion but it also means Blizz has full control over whether or not they wanted to punish this and to what degree.
Yeah, They put in there letter that he 'broke rules that he knew and accepted'. but how exactly can you break a rule that is retroactively decided to be broken after you have said what you have said, based on what you said?
Ergo video games will continue to exist outside of one method of structuring the transactions of goods and services
Thank-you for coming to my ted talk
The games that predate capitalism are not ones that required enough dedicated/joint effort that the people making them needed a living wage for months or years. No individual spent months working on animated artwork for chess like they do creating Hearthstone cards.
If people have more fun playing a game with more interesting graphics and visual effects and are willing to pay more to the people willing to work to give that to them...congratulations, you've invented capitalism.
Blizzchung signed a contract and he knew himself he broke the rules.
He just happens to think it was worth it.
Edit: to make it clear, so do I, but I can also understand Blizzard not wanting politics in their streams.
The following are the terms of a binding contract between the dominant and the submissive.
The submissive shall always conduct themself in a respectful manner to the dominant and they’ll only address him as sir.
The dominant may discipline the submissive as necessary to ensure the submissive appreciates their role of subservience to the dominant and to discourage discussion of Hong Kong.
So, first we have people giving Blizzard slack for going in the weekend with no statement, but when they actually do it's done to bury the statement in the weekend.
It can easily be both. Not putting out a statement at all during the week seemed like an intentional attempt to ignore the issue to death. Putting out a shitty statement just before the weekend looks like an attempt at the tried-and-true method of putting out bad news at the point in the week that's most likely to be forgotten, which is just step two of "ignore it to death".
My options were either no statement for the weekend, or do put out a statement for the weekend. So, it cannot be both. Either way, no way in hell would the internet ignore this, and here in the Netherlands it at least made the NOS website.
They had to react in three days, al the while the situation changed and streamers made their opinions on the matter known. It feels to me they had to rewrite a statement that had to be approved and looked at by multiple people, probably also some in China to see if the revoke would not offend them as well, which all takes time.
I would at least like other possible options are considered as long as we are all spitballing here. Not saying Blizzard is doing well here, but let's not jump to conclusions and dismiss the suggestion "they had to think and consider all options before putting out a message".
Immediately going for the worst possible explanation each time is not helping the cause as we need to look at the facts.
I've already seen people cling on to 'the casters did not know what he was going to do', 'they turned off the unsubcribe button on purpose' and 'all streamers must renounce Blizzard' becoming 'China wrote this statement' and I feel this is a slippery slope if the cause is to be taken seriously for new eyes.
That being said. I'm curious what Kibler thinks of this new statement. Has he said anything yet?
Errr no, they could've put out their statement in the morning or early afternoon. Not at the stroke of midnight Friday night, which is well known as where you drop news you don't want people actually seeing.
It's like sitcoms. When you see a sitcom being moved to Friday night at 9, you know it's being cancelled in a few weeks.
This is implying they had a statement ready to go but waited, which we don't know for sure. I happen to give it the benefit of the doubt, you do not. Let's just agree to disagree. Either way, the statement was not ignored and at least they did make a statement instead of keeping radio silence.
From what I learned from Blizzchung statement he knew he would his actions would get him a penalty, and most importantly why he would get a penalty. Kibler states the same thing, as does Blizzard. Now Kibler thought the penalty was to steep and, no doubtlessly also thx to the uproar, Blizzard has reduced it.
And at least for me, that should be it regarding the controversy for Hearthstone. As in, I believe the game wants to be neutral when doing streams internationally.
Hong Kong is still in a very troubling state, and China is still as closed minded as before, dead set on gaining more and more power there.
For what it's worth, I am at least great full this situation got (even) more attention around the world, and it had me talking with various people about it today and yesterday, to spread awareness and ask for opinions. I hope the situation gets a happy end, but I doubt it seeing the bind HK is in.
This controversy raises a really good question though. Should international companies do business with countries that have proven to deny basic human rights? Business are funding those countries, which means they keep their iron grip. Is it even possible to not do business with such big players as you create a bigger divide and an us versus them mentality?
Businesses do this all the time and the developed world has mostly benefited from it, just look at the tech used for, well, tech. This question seems to miss the larger issue, China manipulates their currency, government, and people in ways that can shape the world's economy if we just allow businesses to cater to their demands. This has been what America has done for the last half century, btw, but China is way more openly big brother about everything.
Thx for adding on to this. For lack on not having the time to type something myself: what would be a better question?
Well, the original question I don't think we can say "no" to because that would destroy the "developed" world's lifestyle, which is dependent on governments that are terrible to their citizens (and thus exploit labor, resources, developed nations reaps reward).
So I would assume we live in the "yes" reality, so if that's so, maybe we can ask, how do we continue to promote America's ideology through international business practices? Or, how do we undermine China's (insert country's ideology we don't want) purchasing power to be subservient to America's? Or maybe, how can we incentive international companies to prefer to do business with countries that also promote America's ideology? The flip side of these questions probably work too, like how do we de-incentive or punish companies who practice anti-American ideologies in their business?
Like, I don't think "people" are mad at Blizzard because they punished a player who broke his contract, but they did it to placate to a country who is seen as having anti-American values (and the punishment also fit China's MO too, unfair, unjust, unreasonable punishment). I think people are scared of what this means now and going forward, imagine working for a company that controls your speech and does so to the extent that they can just remove your salary, not just fire or suspend you but totally take the money you earned, if you say something wrong, that's the path that I think many see we are heading down by placating China's demands. Because that's a reality in China.
If you could press a button right now and put Activision-Blizzard out of business entirely, would you do it?
No, because that is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction and you seem to be performing mental gymnastics to justify buying the next Blizzard product.
All Blizzard had to do here was...."nothing".
If they didn't make the decision to placate China, then BlitzChung didn't break any rules.
If boycotting Blizzard indefinitely is the ethical course of action, then that seems to imply that this company should go bankrupt if everyone does the ethical thing. I don't agree with what they did this time, but I still don't want them to fail, therefore I'm comfortable continuing to do business with them. If your position is that you don't want to support them but you do want them to keep making games, then it's a good thing other people are still supporting them.
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
An adhesion contract is essentially one where one of the parties have all the power. If Blitzchung didn’t sign the agreement, he doesn’t get to play. He (presumably) has no negotiating. For him it’s a binary result. If he’s a pro and wants to make a living playing hearthstone, he has no choice.
Did he violate the terms of the agreement? Yes. Are those terms fair? Not really, no. As others have pointed out, it’s a catch-all clause for conduct others not covered explicitly in the agreement. Blizzard is well within its rights to rescind the agreement for any reason, likely with zero repercussions. Legality =/= morality, and these days I’m not sure it’s ethical anymore either.
If you could press a button right now and put Activision-Blizzard out of business entirely, would you do it?
No, because that is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction and you seem to be performing mental gymnastics to justify buying the next Blizzard product.
All Blizzard had to do here was...."nothing".
If they didn't make the decision to placate China, then BlitzChung didn't break any rules.
If boycotting Blizzard indefinitely is the ethical course of action, then that seems to imply that this company should go bankrupt if everyone does the ethical thing. I don't agree with what they did this time, but I still don't want them to fail, therefore I'm comfortable continuing to do business with them. If your position is that you don't want to support them but you do want them to keep making games, then it's a good thing other people are still supporting them.
Bankruptcy is not the only option. If they notice their income slipping to that extent then the choice is on them to make some changes or go bankrupt. I don't know if exiting China altogether is on the table at all or feasible due to contracts etc. but it's theoretically something they could consider, and they wouldn't go bankrupt for doing so...they'd just make 10-20% less money.
I don't know why the assumption is that any boycott means the consumer wants the offending company bankrupt and gone. All they're doing is sending a message that change is needed before their money comes back.
If you could press a button right now and put Activision-Blizzard out of business entirely, would you do it?
No, because that is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction and you seem to be performing mental gymnastics to justify buying the next Blizzard product.
All Blizzard had to do here was...."nothing".
If they didn't make the decision to placate China, then BlitzChung didn't break any rules.
If boycotting Blizzard indefinitely is the ethical course of action, then that seems to imply that this company should go bankrupt if everyone does the ethical thing. I don't agree with what they did this time, but I still don't want them to fail, therefore I'm comfortable continuing to do business with them. If your position is that you don't want to support them but you do want them to keep making games, then it's a good thing other people are still supporting them.
Boycotting Blizzard is the only way to actually make them change their current strategy, which is currently "punish players for pissing off growth markets, whilst also lying about it".
I would rather they don't go bankrupt. If that happens, that will be their fault for not getting their shit together.
Bankruptcy is not the only option. If they notice their income slipping to that extent then the choice is on them to make some changes or go bankrupt. I don't know if exiting China altogether is on the table at all or feasible due to contracts etc. but it's theoretically something they could consider, and they wouldn't go bankrupt for doing so...they'd just make 10-20% less money.
I’ve read that Blizzard’s current profit from China is currently closer to 5%. The reason it’s a big deal for them is likely that all of their projected growth for the next several years revolves around capturing the Chinese market. Potentially way more than 10-20% of their current profit is in question. Also, as a publicly traded company, indicating that you no longer have any idea how you’re going to grow is... not great.
They don't have to exit China. All they have to do is not censor for the Chinese market. China may choose to exit them, but if Western companies stop censoring for China, it puts the onus on China to continue it's authoritarian, unethical practices and have limited media to consume (which will make the citizens unhappy and push back on their government) or for China to stop expecting total submission from Western companies.
Blizz could have just done nothing and left it to China to be evil or not. Instead Blizz chose to be evil on behalf of China. And if Blizz is going to consistently make the choice to be evil on behalf of China, then I WOULD see it go out of business. I'd prefer instead that they feel the sting from this and revise their behavior, at which point it would stop being unethical to use their products.
I pretty much agree with his take, this was clearly a calculated corporate response to a major international incident, designed to minimize damage to the business. Nobody should be under the illusion that this is a friendly heart-to-heart chat with their community.
I do wish that American businesses would stop operating in China, because this is what it means to operate in China. However, I don't expect it. I don't think any amount of western boycotting will realistically accomplish that, the opportunity cost is too huge. Even if Blizzard cut off China completely, I expect it would have zero impact on reform in their government. I do think that the huge outcry and controversy from this incident has already been really impactful, and I expect Blizzard will reconsider the severity of their response if this happens again (which it will of course).
So yeah, call me cynical or unethical or whatever, but I'm not boycotting them over this. I don't particularly support J Allen Brack personally, but I like the teams that make these games and want to support them. If my money is going 99% to the creation of great games and 1% to the furtherance of Brack's form of political apathy, I can live with that.
Mark Kern is a fuckhead and we shouldn't be giving him any attention
The first tweet linked gives his credentials and the standpoint he comes from. I'm not sure if there is anyone else in an equivalent position to offer the same kind of commentary. And primarily, is he wrong?
I gather Mark Kern has a rather stories history as alt-right and a Gamblesgoober. He's not, broadly, a reliable narrator. There's lots of other hot takes than his, so I think we could just safely skip him.
Edit: specifically, as a particularly egregious example, he has called SJW's a movement to eliminate straight white males by "denying them their right to have sex."
There's plenty of other informed voices on the subject without including him.
I gather Mark Kern has a rather stories history as alt-right and a Gamblesgoober. He's not, broadly, a reliable narrator. There's lots of other hot takes than his, so I think we could just safely skip him.
Edit: specifically, as a particularly egregious example, he has called SJW's a movement to eliminate straight white males by "denying them their right to have sex."
There's plenty of other informed voices on the subject without including him.
I didn't even know this and thought the narrative he was spinning was assuming and abiding to popular tripe.
Wanna try my Mario Maker levels?
Shoot m to BITS (hold Y) [hard] C109-0000-014D-4E09 P-POWER Switch Palace 3838-0000-0122-9359 Raiding the Serpents Tomb 1A04-0000-0098-C11E I like to move it, move it FCE2-0000-00D7-9048
mark kern basically makes his name attaching himself to gamer outrage events, making well-spoken statements that sound accurate even if they aren't, using his credentials from his time at blizzard, which reinforce the viewpoints of the gamer mass. he gains a shit ton of followers doing this.
he doesn't mash the button of alt-right talking points so it's hard to notice when he does it casually now and then. it's often a lot of the "free speech!" style talking points - he's on record as saying he voted Trump because liberals embraced SJW Censorship. the stereotype of the alt-right is of this screaming racist gamer but mark kern is a demonstration of the more sinister kind of way it builds itself. that's not to say i think he's like, intentionally luring gamers in, but rather that that's just sort of how the alt-right memetically reproduces itself. it gives a target to blame for any imagined feelings of oppression and powerlessness.
also he crippled Firefall because he blew ten quadrillion dollars on a shitty bus
I'm guessing Priests are everywhere because they can silence/destroy most of the wild cards that empower the new meta?
Wanna try my Mario Maker levels?
Shoot m to BITS (hold Y) [hard] C109-0000-014D-4E09 P-POWER Switch Palace 3838-0000-0122-9359 Raiding the Serpents Tomb 1A04-0000-0098-C11E I like to move it, move it FCE2-0000-00D7-9048
So between the new Destiny expansion and the whole Blitzchung thing I've had little time or desire to play recently, though I've played here and there.
Turns out for this whole Wild card thing they made "new" cards to represent them so though I was hoping not to have to, I've ended up needing to update the deck image tool which I've now done.
Did have some ideas for expanding the functionality a bit, but we'll see how this whole situation evolves and whether I can find the motivation.
I was already a bit uneasy with playing Hearthstone given the whole job cuts Activision put through even though Kotick that same day announced record revenue. Especially so since I know people that were put through a long period of uncertainty as a result.
Given the amount of money I've put into Hearthstone its hard for me to straight up quit, but I'm not planning on spending any more.
PSN: Holy-Promethium
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I didn't really understand all the howling about the Diablo mobile game last year. Blizzard handled it poorly but a mobile diablo game seemed more like an eventuality than anything else. However, the blitzchung fiasco showed me a much different perspective.
Posts
The only reason the game ever left Russia and became known by anyone at all is due to capitalism. Russia saw an opportunity to make some money so several different companies ended up squabbling over the rights and publishing it elsewhere.
The lack of capitalism is the reason Alexey Pajitnov saw absolutely no personal gain from his incredible creation. It belonged to the state and they gave him nothing.
Computers exist
Ergo video games will continue to exist outside of one method of structuring the transactions of goods and services
Thank-you for coming to my ted talk
Try Path of Exile.
also, dont you have phones?
Yeah, They put in there letter that he 'broke rules that he knew and accepted'. but how exactly can you break a rule that is retroactively decided to be broken after you have said what you have said, based on what you said?
The games that predate capitalism are not ones that required enough dedicated/joint effort that the people making them needed a living wage for months or years. No individual spent months working on animated artwork for chess like they do creating Hearthstone cards.
If people have more fun playing a game with more interesting graphics and visual effects and are willing to pay more to the people willing to work to give that to them...congratulations, you've invented capitalism.
The submissive shall always conduct themself in a respectful manner to the dominant and they’ll only address him as sir.
The dominant may discipline the submissive as necessary to ensure the submissive appreciates their role of subservience to the dominant and to discourage discussion of Hong Kong.
Well, the original question I don't think we can say "no" to because that would destroy the "developed" world's lifestyle, which is dependent on governments that are terrible to their citizens (and thus exploit labor, resources, developed nations reaps reward).
So I would assume we live in the "yes" reality, so if that's so, maybe we can ask, how do we continue to promote America's ideology through international business practices? Or, how do we undermine China's (insert country's ideology we don't want) purchasing power to be subservient to America's? Or maybe, how can we incentive international companies to prefer to do business with countries that also promote America's ideology? The flip side of these questions probably work too, like how do we de-incentive or punish companies who practice anti-American ideologies in their business?
Like, I don't think "people" are mad at Blizzard because they punished a player who broke his contract, but they did it to placate to a country who is seen as having anti-American values (and the punishment also fit China's MO too, unfair, unjust, unreasonable punishment). I think people are scared of what this means now and going forward, imagine working for a company that controls your speech and does so to the extent that they can just remove your salary, not just fire or suspend you but totally take the money you earned, if you say something wrong, that's the path that I think many see we are heading down by placating China's demands. Because that's a reality in China.
If boycotting Blizzard indefinitely is the ethical course of action, then that seems to imply that this company should go bankrupt if everyone does the ethical thing. I don't agree with what they did this time, but I still don't want them to fail, therefore I'm comfortable continuing to do business with them. If your position is that you don't want to support them but you do want them to keep making games, then it's a good thing other people are still supporting them.
Did he violate the terms of the agreement? Yes. Are those terms fair? Not really, no. As others have pointed out, it’s a catch-all clause for conduct others not covered explicitly in the agreement. Blizzard is well within its rights to rescind the agreement for any reason, likely with zero repercussions. Legality =/= morality, and these days I’m not sure it’s ethical anymore either.
Bankruptcy is not the only option. If they notice their income slipping to that extent then the choice is on them to make some changes or go bankrupt. I don't know if exiting China altogether is on the table at all or feasible due to contracts etc. but it's theoretically something they could consider, and they wouldn't go bankrupt for doing so...they'd just make 10-20% less money.
I don't know why the assumption is that any boycott means the consumer wants the offending company bankrupt and gone. All they're doing is sending a message that change is needed before their money comes back.
Boycotting Blizzard is the only way to actually make them change their current strategy, which is currently "punish players for pissing off growth markets, whilst also lying about it".
I would rather they don't go bankrupt. If that happens, that will be their fault for not getting their shit together.
I’ve read that Blizzard’s current profit from China is currently closer to 5%. The reason it’s a big deal for them is likely that all of their projected growth for the next several years revolves around capturing the Chinese market. Potentially way more than 10-20% of their current profit is in question. Also, as a publicly traded company, indicating that you no longer have any idea how you’re going to grow is... not great.
Blizz could have just done nothing and left it to China to be evil or not. Instead Blizz chose to be evil on behalf of China. And if Blizz is going to consistently make the choice to be evil on behalf of China, then I WOULD see it go out of business. I'd prefer instead that they feel the sting from this and revise their behavior, at which point it would stop being unethical to use their products.
https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1183215204525412352
Snipped it away.
I do wish that American businesses would stop operating in China, because this is what it means to operate in China. However, I don't expect it. I don't think any amount of western boycotting will realistically accomplish that, the opportunity cost is too huge. Even if Blizzard cut off China completely, I expect it would have zero impact on reform in their government. I do think that the huge outcry and controversy from this incident has already been really impactful, and I expect Blizzard will reconsider the severity of their response if this happens again (which it will of course).
So yeah, call me cynical or unethical or whatever, but I'm not boycotting them over this. I don't particularly support J Allen Brack personally, but I like the teams that make these games and want to support them. If my money is going 99% to the creation of great games and 1% to the furtherance of Brack's form of political apathy, I can live with that.
The first tweet linked gives his credentials and the standpoint he comes from. I'm not sure if there is anyone else in an equivalent position to offer the same kind of commentary. And primarily, is he wrong?
Ad hominem Attacks for $400, Alex.
Also, you could explain why we shouldn't be giving him any attention.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Edit: specifically, as a particularly egregious example, he has called SJW's a movement to eliminate straight white males by "denying them their right to have sex."
There's plenty of other informed voices on the subject without including him.
I didn't even know this and thought the narrative he was spinning was assuming and abiding to popular tripe.
Shoot m to BITS (hold Y) [hard] C109-0000-014D-4E09
P-POWER Switch Palace 3838-0000-0122-9359
Raiding the Serpents Tomb 1A04-0000-0098-C11E
I like to move it, move it FCE2-0000-00D7-9048
See my profile here!
This is not a useful style of post.
he doesn't mash the button of alt-right talking points so it's hard to notice when he does it casually now and then. it's often a lot of the "free speech!" style talking points - he's on record as saying he voted Trump because liberals embraced SJW Censorship. the stereotype of the alt-right is of this screaming racist gamer but mark kern is a demonstration of the more sinister kind of way it builds itself. that's not to say i think he's like, intentionally luring gamers in, but rather that that's just sort of how the alt-right memetically reproduces itself. it gives a target to blame for any imagined feelings of oppression and powerlessness.
also he crippled Firefall because he blew ten quadrillion dollars on a shitty bus
this was a pretty solid turn 3 i think hmmmm
(also holy moly so many fucking priests today!! wowza)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Shoot m to BITS (hold Y) [hard] C109-0000-014D-4E09
P-POWER Switch Palace 3838-0000-0122-9359
Raiding the Serpents Tomb 1A04-0000-0098-C11E
I like to move it, move it FCE2-0000-00D7-9048
See my profile here!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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The bus was probably a better investment than Firefall.
You are wrong and you burn in hell. Firefall was a great idea.
Twitch: akThera
Steam: Thera
Oh, and I think today (Tuesday) is a day to make sure you have an extra quest slot open by like 10AM Pacific or so.
Gonna be an interesting Blizzcon.
Turns out for this whole Wild card thing they made "new" cards to represent them so though I was hoping not to have to, I've ended up needing to update the deck image tool which I've now done.
Did have some ideas for expanding the functionality a bit, but we'll see how this whole situation evolves and whether I can find the motivation.
I was already a bit uneasy with playing Hearthstone given the whole job cuts Activision put through even though Kotick that same day announced record revenue. Especially so since I know people that were put through a long period of uncertainty as a result.
Given the amount of money I've put into Hearthstone its hard for me to straight up quit, but I'm not planning on spending any more.
Blizzcon is going to be strange.