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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Winning The Argument Looks A Lot Like Losing

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    The BBC regret to inform you that, having decided this politics malarkey is just too depressing, Gove is turning to gangsta rap.

    “Ain’t gonna happen” says Michael Gove, “ain’t gonna be no second referendum”

    “It just, won’t happen”

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    On the other hand, the BBC are delighted to inform you that Farage backs remain.

    Nigel Farage backs extension and a general election over PM’s deal

    Nick is the BBC’s political correspondent

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    On the other hand, the BBC are delighted to inform you that Farage backs remain.

    Nigel Farage backs extension and a general election over PM’s deal

    Nick is the BBC’s political correspondent

    Why is Farage against the deal? It's pretty damn hard brexit

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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Farage needs to be against the withdrawal agreement otherwise the whole point of the Brexit party comes into question. We could leave with no deal and he'd somehow frame it as us being controlled by Brussels.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    On the other hand, the BBC are delighted to inform you that Farage backs remain.

    Nigel Farage backs extension and a general election over PM’s deal

    Nick is the BBC’s political correspondent

    Why is Farage against the deal? It's pretty damn hard brexit

    A combination of Northern Ireland following EU regulations so “we’re half in half out” according to him, the reality of this deal falling far short of the glorious claims he made about post Brexit UK so he HAS to say it’s a failed version of something he could do better, his overwhelming hunger for a seat at parliament so slamming Johnson as having failed Brexit sets up his campaign to get into Westminster and handle Brexit “properly” and... probably a sprinkling of the fact that Johnson is an MEP and the longer the UK extend Article 50, the longer he gets paid.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Farage can't ever let the lie he sells be proved a lie, so he'll always claim it was betrayed instead of not true in the first place.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Apparently they're going to take 5 hours of debate time to talk about over 500 pages of documents.
    No one in their right mind is going to vote on something they haven't sodding read.

    Not sure if this was meant sarcastically, but that's totally how I took it.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    The Telegraph are reporting that Barnier is to be rewarded for his hard work, patience, endurance of all manner of insults and perseverance in obtaining a UK withdrawal agreement with...

    ...a role in all future UK / EU trade negotiations.


    Yeah, I don’t know why the EU are punishing the poor bastard like this either.

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Apparently they're going to take 5 hours of debate time to talk about over 500 pages of documents.
    No one in their right mind is going to vote on something they haven't sodding read.

    Not sure if this was meant sarcastically, but that's totally how I took it.

    I read it as entirely sincere, but with the unspoken footnote that a sizeable number of them are not in their right mind. Or what we would define as their right mind...

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I mean they're giving him a shotgun and pointing at a barrel of fish and asking him to bring back dinner so why not?

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    ok yeah so if the eu are happy with this being done by 1 november if parliament votes for it then that is probably why it viewed as a favourable option - committing to this looks like they are meeting the promise to get us out etc etc

    obF2Wuw.png
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Perdurabo wrote: »
    Farage needs to be against the withdrawal agreement otherwise the whole point of the Brexit party comes into question. We could leave with no deal and he'd somehow frame it as us being controlled by Brussels.

    Partly that, and also because we're agreeing to the level playing field rules, that stop us doing the Singapore thing.
    This is not a win for the Free Ports his masters want, but at least a 5 year delay or so.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    An Taoiseach* Leo Varadkar releases a statement. Broadly speaking he’s happy.


    It’s pronounced tea shock.

    The deal can’t be ratified before November 1st as the EU parliament isn’t sitting next week, but it could probably be agreed by the EU27 leaders in principal, with the voting done later.

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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Perdurabo wrote: »
    Farage needs to be against the withdrawal agreement otherwise the whole point of the Brexit party comes into question. We could leave with no deal and he'd somehow frame it as us being controlled by Brussels.

    Partly that, and also because we're agreeing to the level playing field rules, that stop us doing the Singapore thing.
    This is not a win for the Free Ports his masters want, but at least a 5 year delay or so.

    No it doesn't. The non-binding political declaration says that any new trade deal would be underpinned by provision insuring a level playing field. It would only be binding as part of a future trade agreement.

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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Is there really that much of a window to have no trade deal with the EU, even if it's just an interim one?
    I thought even the most ardent No Dealers were assuming we'd be able to fix most of the problems with a trade deal with the EU. I thought this deal still has the same kind of transition period that May's one did.

    Tastyfish on
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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    just wait until they find out what kind of extraterritorial arbitration body will be conjured into existence to determine if the LPF provisions are being followed

    thats gonna be a giggle

    obF2Wuw.png
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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    The Telegraph are reporting that Barnier is to be rewarded for his hard work, patience, endurance of all manner of insults and perseverance in obtaining a UK withdrawal agreement with...

    ...a role in all future UK / EU trade negotiations.


    Yeah, I don’t know why the EU are punishing the poor bastard like this either.
    “The reward for toil is more toil. If you dig the best ditches, they give you a bigger shovel.”

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    No chance of more endless extensions and Brexit just quietly never happening?

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Unfortunately on that front...
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will not grant another Brexit extension.

    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    Liveblog, like always.

    daveNYC on
    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    The Telegraph are reporting that Barnier is to be rewarded for his hard work, patience, endurance of all manner of insults and perseverance in obtaining a UK withdrawal agreement with...

    ...a role in all future UK / EU trade negotiations.


    Yeah, I don’t know why the EU are punishing the poor bastard like this either.
    The Telegraph are reporting that Barnier is to be rewarded for his hard work, patience, endurance of all manner of insults and perseverance in obtaining a UK withdrawal agreement with...

    ...a role in all future UK / EU trade negotiations.


    Yeah, I don’t know why the EU are punishing the poor bastard like this either.

    Probably they figure he has proven to have the stomach to deal with the tories and nobody else wanted to?

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Unfortunately on that front...
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will grant another Brexit extension.

    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    Liveblog, like always.

    Well, that's a huge fuck-you to the Remainers.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I am assuming the absence of a 'not' in the second sentence is an error.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Unfortunately on that front...
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will grant another Brexit extension.

    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    Liveblog, like always.

    Well, that's a huge fuck-you to the Remainers.

    Realistically remain never had much of a chance anyways since Corbyn is not-so-secretly on the brexit side.

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I am assuming the absence of a 'not' in the second sentence is an error.

    Yeah, the Liveblog now has been corrected to be fully depressing. I'll update the quote.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    There isn't really a path to remain without a government that wants it, or at least holds out an opportunity to vote for it. Corbyn is very unlikely to get in so there's effectively no way Remain was going to happen.

    Juncker is likely just wanting to get the damn thing done. Remain is off the table, so he'll get a deal.

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Unfortunately on that front...
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will not grant another Brexit extension.

    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    Liveblog, like always.

    he said no prolongation but "he is not in control of uk parliamentary affairs" - this is simply saying that we have a deal so there is no need for further negotiation, but there is an obvious assumption that parliament passes it...

    i would note that this deal is a short term fix that is going to cost cons in the long run. outcomes ranked:

    1) this passes saturday we leave early november, immediate general election, easy win
    2) this is voted down but no fucking around with second refs etc, there is a general election during an extension and cons run on "we tried to do the Good Brexit but Remainer Elite Sabotaged" -> reasonably good outcome
    3) voted through subject to second referendum and extension -> terrible outcome
    4) any other cause of random extension nonsense or generic chaos?

    what this has done is damage labour in the short run, produce a high value short term payoff, but the longer this is subject to scrutiny the more bizarre the ni provisions are going to seem.

    key (non-discussed) point is that as the uk diverges from eu regs the level of border checking required between the uk and NORTHERN IRELAND (??¬!?!) will only increase over time. this is literalyl a commitment to an ever-growing distance....

    obF2Wuw.png
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    shryke wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Unfortunately on that front...
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will grant another Brexit extension.

    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    Liveblog, like always.

    Well, that's a huge fuck-you to the Remainers.

    There's alway revoke, and then just invoke article 50 once we've sorted our shit out. Like the plan should have been from the start.
    I'd be suprised not to see a revoke/referendum/election/invoke article 50 amendment on Saturday.

    I'd even more suprised if it passes though.

    Tastyfish on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    So at this point it looks like y'all are getting:
    - deal passes parliament
    - Johnson calls election and wins majority

    Like shooting yourself in the face with two guns, just to be sure.

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited October 2019
    barnier has not and cannot rule out an extension - it is not in his gift and it is not the implication of what he has said

    woops juncker such is lyfe

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    barnier has not and cannot rule out an extension - it is not in his gift and it is not the implication of what he has said

    You mean Juncker?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    barnier has not and cannot rule out an extension - it is not in his gift and it is not the implication of what he has said

    You mean Juncker?

    Equally valid for both, I think.

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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    Side note: Corbyn must have sat on his glasses a couple of weeks back. They've been bent badly out of a shape for a while now.

    It took me a while to realise this wasn’t an oddly phrased metaphor and that Jezza actually had sat on his glasses

    fuck gendered marketing
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    FryFry Registered User regular
    I was listening to Newshour on my way in to work just now. Con MP was on, saying how Northern Ireland actually does well with this deal, because it'll get "the best of both worlds." Labour MP spoke next, saying how Labour was going to whip for this deal provided there was an amendment for a 2nd ref, during which Labour would campaign for Remain, and how Labour had always been both for leaving and for a 2nd ref.

    I am so, so sorry this is the shit you good folks have to deal with. :(

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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    I was listening to Newshour on my way in to work just now. Con MP was on, saying how Northern Ireland actually does well with this deal, because it'll get "the best of both worlds." Labour MP spoke next, saying how Labour was going to whip for this deal provided there was an amendment for a 2nd ref, during which Labour would campaign for Remain, and how Labour had always been both for leaving and for a 2nd ref.

    I am so, so sorry this is the shit you good folks have to deal with. :(

    It's our own fucking fault, you've nothing to be sorry about :/

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Farage demanded a delay rather than Brexit sure is a thing I didn't expect to read today. And citing the Benn bill!

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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I like how UK law is now somehow supposed to bind the EU.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I am confident his followers are so pigshit thick they'll nod along to everything he says.

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    themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    It might be worth listening to a bit of Farage's call in show. Should be hilarious.

    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

    Path of Exile: themightypuck
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    So is the play that Boris has convinced the EU that Parliament will cave and accept this deal if they refuse an extension and make it this deal or no deal?

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Perdurabo wrote: »
    Farage demanded a delay rather than Brexit sure is a thing I didn't expect to read today. And citing the Benn bill!

    I wonder if there's the slightest chance he's been meeting with financial advisors who have told him that as an english speaking dickhead, he needs at least one english speaking capitalist democracy to be functional so he can continue his dickheadery and wealth without being hung as a foreign agitator.

    Best choice is, as people have mentioned, vote down the deal and immediately revoke article 50. Then have a vote between this deal and remain.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
This discussion has been closed.