Doctor DetroitNot a doctorTree townRegistered Userregular
TROS is the Into Darkness of Star Wars movies.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
In other news, the new season of Clone Wars is shaping up to be pretty good. I'm only a few episodes in but does anyone know the timing of the
"Those things can fly!" line? Was it before or after TROS? If it's after, then we're approaching DC-levels of animation-trolling-their-live-counterparts.
AOTC had a story. The plot made sense, even if it was told horrendously.
ROS had cowardly, nonsensical storytelling wrapped in a glossy package. Worst.
AOTC has the most inane plot in the whole saga, plus the absolute worst acting.
ROS isn’t “nonsensical,” it’s just rushed and fanservice-y and lazy. It’s got serviceable acting and looks like a million bucks.
What is even going on in this thread
I think AOTC is probably worse on the individual merits but ROS is clearly the most disappointing of the bunch because it's actually got all the elements necessary to be good but it's just terribly made. AOTC I expected nothing from after TPM and it basically delivered on that.
Although I'm torn on whether TPM is worse then AOTC for being literally entirely pointless.
Rise of Skywalker had exactly one good scene in the whole movie. And that scene was the Rey training course in the jungle. And that's it.
Attack of the Clones has the fun Geonosis arena event. AotC has a pretty epic land battle of Clones vs Droids. AotC has the Dooku v Anakin and Obi Wan duel, and also the Dooku v Yoda duel. I would also say that even though it's a highly contrived setpiece, the part where Anakin, Padme, and the droids are going through the manufacturing plant and are almost crush, burned, beheaded, and so forth was a pretty fun scene to watch.
A lot of those scenes are p bad, and I say that as someone who actually prefers AotC to TPM. It's kind of like comparing two different flavors of cough medicine, admittedly.
I'm increasingly glad I decided to wait on Rise of Skywalker until it hits Disney+ and just immunize myself through controlled contact with plot spoilers.
I like that you've decided you hate the movie without having seen it.
Rise of Skywalker had exactly one good scene in the whole movie. And that scene was the Rey training course in the jungle. And that's it.
Attack of the Clones has the fun Geonosis arena event. AotC has a pretty epic land battle of Clones vs Droids. AotC has the Dooku v Anakin and Obi Wan duel, and also the Dooku v Yoda duel. I would also say that even though it's a highly contrived setpiece, the part where Anakin, Padme, and the droids are going through the manufacturing plant and are almost crush, burned, beheaded, and so forth was a pretty fun scene to watch.
A lot of those scenes are p bad, and I say that as someone who actually prefers AotC to TPM. It's kind of like comparing two different flavors of cough medicine, admittedly.
I'm increasingly glad I decided to wait on Rise of Skywalker until it hits Disney+ and just immunize myself through controlled contact with plot spoilers.
I like that you've decided you hate the movie without having seen it.
I didn't read that as "I have decided to hate it", more "I feel that watching it at home on a service I already pay for is an investment commensurate with my expectations, and I probably would have felt bad about spending $30 to see it in the theater" (which, for what it's worth, is precisely how I feel about having spent $30 to see it in the theater - not hate, just ...I coulda had a fifth of something nice and watched it on the teevee later instead and that would've been better use of resources).
That brings me to a good question. I have all of the other releases on DvD or bluray.
Am I not going to get a 4k copy when it is released because I was so disappointed by it?? I don't know if I'd be satisfied if it was just on D+, even though I'd be loathe to watch it. I mean, I'm the guy who waited an extra year or so to read the new GoT or Expanse books until they were out in paperback, so they'd match the other books on the shelf. Am I really going to leave a hole on my movie shelf?
*sigh* Probably not. Fuck you, Star Wars. Fuck you.
(I am NOT paying day one price for it though. I'll wait until it drops significantly)
Rise of Skywalker had exactly one good scene in the whole movie. And that scene was the Rey training course in the jungle. And that's it.
Attack of the Clones has the fun Geonosis arena event. AotC has a pretty epic land battle of Clones vs Droids. AotC has the Dooku v Anakin and Obi Wan duel, and also the Dooku v Yoda duel. I would also say that even though it's a highly contrived setpiece, the part where Anakin, Padme, and the droids are going through the manufacturing plant and are almost crush, burned, beheaded, and so forth was a pretty fun scene to watch.
A lot of those scenes are p bad, and I say that as someone who actually prefers AotC to TPM. It's kind of like comparing two different flavors of cough medicine, admittedly.
I'm increasingly glad I decided to wait on Rise of Skywalker until it hits Disney+ and just immunize myself through controlled contact with plot spoilers.
I like that you've decided you hate the movie without having seen it.
I absolutely haven't, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that I've decided to hate the movie. I expect I won't like the movie, but I'm going to give it as fair a shake as I can, and I would think that my recent posts about my rewatch of the Prequel Trilogy would back me up on that. I love Star Wars, and even more than that I want to fully explore what I think works and doesn't work in each of the films.
Rise of Skywalker had exactly one good scene in the whole movie. And that scene was the Rey training course in the jungle. And that's it.
Attack of the Clones has the fun Geonosis arena event. AotC has a pretty epic land battle of Clones vs Droids. AotC has the Dooku v Anakin and Obi Wan duel, and also the Dooku v Yoda duel. I would also say that even though it's a highly contrived setpiece, the part where Anakin, Padme, and the droids are going through the manufacturing plant and are almost crush, burned, beheaded, and so forth was a pretty fun scene to watch.
A lot of those scenes are p bad, and I say that as someone who actually prefers AotC to TPM. It's kind of like comparing two different flavors of cough medicine, admittedly.
I'm increasingly glad I decided to wait on Rise of Skywalker until it hits Disney+ and just immunize myself through controlled contact with plot spoilers.
I like that you've decided you hate the movie without having seen it.
I absolutely haven't, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that I've decided to hate the movie. I expect I won't like the movie, but I'm going to give it as fair a shake as I can, and I would think that my recent posts about my rewatch of the Prequel Trilogy would back me up on that. I love Star Wars, and even more than that I want to fully explore what I think works and doesn't work in each of the films.
When you talked about "immunizing yourself" (which you typically only do against something that's horrible, like small pox or measles), I read it as you having heard it was bad, spoiling yourself to confirm it was bad, and then waiting to watch it until you could do it for free, since it is bad.
That may have been an uncharitable read.
I apologize.
For what it's worth, I thought it was a great movie. Not flawless (but what is?), and a lot of the critique levelled against it feels like it would equally well apply to the OT and thus (to me) feels a bit disingenous.
I mean, you're not entirely wrong there, to be honest; I wasn't confident that Abrams could tie up the trilogy, so I didn't see it when it was released. Then I heard enough word of mouth that I decided to just look at some spoilers because I thought, hey, maybe if I go in knowing some of what I'm up against, I won't be blindsided, and my low expectations might prove handy when trying to enjoy myself. That's what I mean by "immunize."
I don't want to hate the movie, though, and now that I won't really be paying for it, and now that I don't expect much of it, I'm hoping I'll be able to come away being pleasantly surprised.
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Doctor DetroitNot a doctorTree townRegistered Userregular
I want to say that i don’t hate TROS, I just...feel nothing.
It’s like the movie zigged when it should have zagged every time, and after that first misstep, it could never get back on track.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
AOTC had a story. The plot made sense, even if it was told horrendously.
ROS had cowardly, nonsensical storytelling wrapped in a glossy package. Worst.
AOTC has the most inane plot in the whole saga, plus the absolute worst acting.
ROS isn’t “nonsensical,” it’s just rushed and fanservice-y and lazy. It’s got serviceable acting and looks like a million bucks.
What is even going on in this thread
I think AOTC is probably worse on the individual merits but ROS is clearly the most disappointing of the bunch because it's actually got all the elements necessary to be good but it's just terribly made. AOTC I expected nothing from after TPM and it basically delivered on that.
Although I'm torn on whether TPM is worse then AOTC for being literally entirely pointless.
That depends entirely on whether or not you consider actively going backwards pointless.
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
TPM is just a good, classic space adventure where the crew travels to a lot of places and then come back to the starting location for the final confrontation.
This might get mixed up after I finish this rewatch, since it's been quite a while, but my list for films and TV right now looks something like
8-10s
Rebels - The best moments in Star Wars and serviceable adventure otherwise. Give me a follow up.
Mandalorian - Solid fun with an interesting view of the setting. It's basically a live-action Filoni cartoon in tone, for better or worse.
RotJ - assuming I blank the Special Edition additions from my memory
ESB - It's really good, yes, but I can't imagine watching it by itself so...?
ANH - It's really good and stands alone I just like the other two better
TCW - 3ish seasons of okay, ~4 more of great, but I still struggle personally to wholeheartedly enjoy a prequel leading to a well-established disaster
6-7s
RO - Doomed prequel problem but it's an interesting story for the setting and it's wellmade
TFA - I liked it in a vacuum but it's the worst ST movie for how it set up the setting
TLJ - it has stupid writing and style-over-substance as bad as TFA, and I dislike parts of it far more than anything specific in TFA, even though it's also got really good and interesting ideas
TRoS - it's sort of fun and while the beginning is dire I don't mind it much after they hit the wreckage scenes, though it still has hiccups after that
3-5s
TPM - dumb bits, admittedly pointless, Anakin and Jar Jar (Anakin is worse), but it's the only PT I'd watch without the driving force of a full rewatch
Resistance - It has a few strong episodes, a few okay episodes, and a ton of absolute trash
RotS - Doomed prequel problem, even if it's arguably the best constructed and written of the PT
AOTC - I remembered it as the sole completely unwatchable Star Wars movie, but time and memes have softened the impact of Anakin's lines and other nonsense so it's at least not that bad now
I still haven't watched Solo somehow, I'll be getting to that soon though since I won't drag my heels nearly as long watching the rest of the movies as I did going from TPM to AoTC. Ah, and I'd toss Jedi: Fallen Order in around TCW as a great canon story--probably above it.
edit: I...may have written out this list before, now that I think about it? Or one similar to it? Oh well.
Kamar on
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
Part of my haul today, a fresh new addition to my vintage Kenner Micro Collection....collection:
I love how the Snowtrooper is supposed to be getting shot but instead looks like they're doing a belly laugh.
Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
edited March 2020
I also got this amazing Shadows of the Empire BTS book on amazon for 3 bucks. Its 300 pages long and is filled with concept art and behind the scenes stuff regarding the entire multimedia event:
i still go back to the phantom menace being a not terrible but not great sci-fi movie. It has parts that are too long and one too many plotlines but it had a good energy and a GREAT cast.
The PT is such a weird trainwreck at the meeting of passion and laziness that I can't help be charmed by it the more time moves on. It wants to do such great things and meets us halfway there a good portion of the time so much so that I'm like, "yeah, good for you! I will gladly do the rest of the mental legwork for you on this. Bless".
RoS is like a spoiler rich kid who was handed greatness and wants praise for nuthin. Show your fuckin work, JJ!
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The PT apologia here is truly baffling
They are uniformly terrible films
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
The PT is such a weird trainwreck at the meeting of passion and laziness that I can't help be charmed by it the more time moves on. It wants to do such great things and meets us halfway there a good portion of the time so much so that I'm like, "yeah, good for you! I will gladly do the rest of the mental legwork for you on this. Bless".
RoS is like a spoiler rich kid who was handed greatness and wants praise for nuthin. Show your fuckin work, JJ!
Not even close.
I could literally write you an essay on all the ways TROS beautifully connected to the rest of the franchise and ended the saga.
These types of conversations are getting tiresome though. It's not the opinion that get's me, some of my good friends can't stand the ST and TROS but we always have good faith discussions and debates on it that expand our understanding of our positions and also teach us to listen to where the other side is coming from and learn from it. It's the sureness and the bile behind the words used in many cases online (hardly ever in person though, funny that) that kills discussion so quickly. When (in my opinion, I fully realize and admit I'm not infallible and could be wrong on things) these things people are saying aren't even accurate, especially a majority of the "plot holes" people come up with, and they are so.... to put it kindly... sure of themselves and....overzealous in trying to get their point across... it can be incredibly incredibly annoying to read and/or listen to, to the point where I'd prefer to just shut down rather than have any type of meaningful discussion. This type of stuff is damaging the community IMO.
Also Shadows of the Empire is an 80's retro-futuristic Sci-Fi movie (only done in the 90's) that comes the closest to fulfilling GL's Flash Gordon fantasy than any other Star Wars property prove me wrong...
I mean have you seen Chewie's buzzcut and eyepatch? Have you seen Dash Rendar's personality and skills? Xizor is practically Ming in green paint... I'm not sure where this came from its just a thought I had while looking at the concept art. Oh and those shoulder pads.
Shoulder pads 4 lyfe top 5 iconic star wars accessories.
They may have been the worst movies, but then the ST came along and lowered the bar. (ROS, in particular, sunk it into an ocean trench.)
This is just crazy talk. I’m not a huge fan of how the ST played out, but they’re empirically better films. This whole thread has me gobsmacked.
The only area where I'd agree the ST uniformly outmatches the PT is in visual effects. The entire PT looked iffy when it was released and looks terribly outdated now, but the ST looks decent enough that at least that part of it will hold up.
In terms of quality of everything else, I think the most I could agree with is that there are parts of the ST that are better than the PT. If you strip away everything in the ST that is just a straight ripoff of the OT (and there's a fuckload of it), you're looking at a pretty slim selection of anything to even compare. Even TLJ, the best of the lot, is hugely problematic in dumping on franchise favorites while expending zero effort to justify or earn that crap; on top of that, it's a lurching mess of a film that can't make up it's mind to hurry up or slow down, with plotholes that can stop an AT-AT. And that's the best film of the ST, by far.
I wouldn't put the PT or ST down as quality filmwork, but the ST's ridiculous and crippling addiction to callbacks and rehashing over anything resembling a coherent story puts it on about the same level for me as the PT's potentially interesting, but very poorly executed, story. A competent filmmaker could remake the PT into something awesome and keep much of the same story, but a competent filmmaker would take the ST and dump the whole thing in the trash for being disconnected fanservicey crap. The ST highs are mostly callbacks or ripoffs of the original series, and the lows are reeeeeaaaallly low and plentiful.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
They may have been the worst movies, but then the ST came along and lowered the bar. (ROS, in particular, sunk it into an ocean trench.)
This is just crazy talk. I’m not a huge fan of how the ST played out, but they’re empirically better films. This whole thread has me gobsmacked.
The only area where I'd agree the ST uniformly outmatches the PT is in visual effects. The entire PT looked iffy when it was released and looks terribly outdated now, but the ST looks decent enough that at least that part of it will hold up.
In terms of quality of everything else, I think the most I could agree with is that there are parts of the ST that are better than the PT. If you strip away everything in the ST that is just a straight ripoff of the OT (and there's a fuckload of it), you're looking at a pretty slim selection of anything to even compare. Even TLJ, the best of the lot, is hugely problematic in dumping on franchise favorites while expending zero effort to justify or earn that crap; on top of that, it's a lurching mess of a film that can't make up it's mind to hurry up or slow down, with plotholes that can stop an AT-AT. And that's the best film of the ST, by far.
I wouldn't put the PT or ST down as quality filmwork, but the ST's ridiculous and crippling addiction to callbacks and rehashing over anything resembling a coherent story puts it on about the same level for me as the PT's potentially interesting, but very poorly executed, story. A competent filmmaker could remake the PT into something awesome and keep much of the same story, but a competent filmmaker would take the ST and dump the whole thing in the trash for being disconnected fanservicey crap. The ST highs are mostly callbacks or ripoffs of the original series, and the lows are reeeeeaaaallly low and plentiful.
I can get on board with this. But also the acting across the ST is far beyond the PT.
It’s really a shame someone more talented didn’t write and direct the PT. It’s a more cohesive story, for sure.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
They're both bad in different ways. Whether one is objectively worse than the other is not really something you can argue given their differences are qualitative, and therefore subjective.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I'd attach the better acting to the better visuals as the actors in the ST were, as a rule, addressing other characters that are actually there on sets that somebody at least partially built.
The PT, however, used a pile of established, respected actors but also stuck them in big blue rooms with a handful of props. Shit, a lot of the time the "sets" were literally nothing but blue boxes and blue walls. Then they made a bunch of the characters in conversations CG as well, so you had real people walking through blue rooms conversing with other real humans while trying to also converse with characters that aren't there. Even legendary actors struggle with that level of disconnect, even with competent writing and directing instead of some of the clunkiest, most wooden dialogue imaginable.
Which is not to downplay the efforts of the ST actors, just to say that ST's effects were done in a vastly superior fashion to the point the it also had a positive effect on the actors being able to engage with the scenes instead of having no fucking clue as to what is going on around them in the added effects. Those actors were definitely into what they were doing, whereas hardly anybody in the PT seems to want to be there.
I'd attach the better acting to the better visuals as the actors in the ST were, as a rule, addressing other characters that are actually there on sets that somebody at least partially built.
The PT, however, used a pile of established, respected actors but also stuck them in big blue rooms with a handful of props. Shit, a lot of the time the "sets" were literally nothing but blue boxes and blue walls. Then they made a bunch of the characters in conversations CG as well, so you had real people walking through blue rooms conversing with other real humans while trying to also converse with characters that aren't there. Even legendary actors struggle with that level of disconnect, even with competent writing and directing instead of some of the clunkiest, most wooden dialogue imaginable.
Thats definitely something that I don't like about the second and third movie; everything looks like a slightly more expensive version of those 90's pc games where they film someone walking around on a green screen and stick them over a completely incongruous cg background. I can't get past the scenes of people doing bad acting while floating in the middle of a jpeg of Palpatines perfectly symmetrical and bland office.
The PT describes the rise of the evil wizard. The OT describes the fall of the evil wizard. It's not that I think the PT are better made movies, it's that the ST describes the fall of the same goddamn evil wizard. As part of a whole, the PT is bad and the ST is superfluous. I guess as a companion set to the 3 actually good movies, I prefer the bad, different movies to the competently made, unnecessary do overs.
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Doctor DetroitNot a doctorTree townRegistered Userregular
TROS faceplants so hard that the previous 2 movies get brought down by association.
the open of TPM is really good. Here are a couple of jedi going on a diplomatic mission, just what the jedi say they do! Oh look, they sense something is wrong but are unsure, this is a good low-key force thing. and the beats from the opening up to tatooine are pretty good. Even jar-jar isn't overdone at this point. It's really the tatooine stuff that bogs the movie down, everything else is done well. The jedi aren't invincible murder machines but also don't get taken out like chumps. Darth Maul is menacing in all the right ways and Duel of Fate is <chef's kiss>.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited March 2020
TPM is terrible and it should have been condensed into the first 15-20 minutes of a different movie where a young Obi-Wan finds a kid on a planet that he decides to train, cut to 10 years later the kid is training and the beginning of the clone wars presses him into full time action even though he may not quite have the proper temperament and training to handle war. Like we waste an entire movie of a trilogy that is supposed to detail the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker on a movie he isn't even in for like the first third, and he has no agency, no change, no development over the entire course of the movie.
The movie is also so poorly paced and all of the action makes basically no sense and when you step back from it for two seconds you realize that the plot was sprinkled in between all of these cool set pieces and they needed some twine to connect them.
Like what the fuck is the weird power plant doing under the palace and why is it so big and also under the palace? What are they doing in there? What is the point of the weird shielding that separates Obi-Wan from Qui-Gon during the fight? Why does the Droid army land on the opposite side of the planet from where they want to attack? Why does a spacefighter have a child sized helmet inside of it? Why would a child build a clumsy protocol droid to help his mom around the house? How would a slave even know what the fuck a protocol droid is? How does Anakin even reach what I assume have to be floor pedals to pilot the ship?
The saving grace of the movie is the "God WHY?!" elements of it only happen after you see the movie instead of slapping you in the face the entire time you're watching like TROS.
For me, a coherent story trumps all. My own love for the setting can fill in the blanks left by shitty acting editing. But the ideas of the PT: of a little nothing slave boy, destined for greatness and bring about both ruination and, eventually, salvation to the galaxy is amazing. The decadent and corrupt government, and the complacent and inbred (is that the right metaphor? I'll run with it...) order of space wizards who protect is are at the height of their folly and ripe to be overthrown by the magnificent and conniving evil space wizard. That's a story I can get behind, even though the original storyteller did an absolute shit job of telling it.
The ST started off rehashing the OT with new characters, who are good, but I've heard this exact same story before. The second part of the story drags a bit, but has some interesting things to say about finding a new way forward, and how doing things as they were done in past does not work anymore, etc. And the third part completely invalidates the second part, abandons things brought up in the first part and along the way invalidates the heroic redemption and salvation of the nothing slave boy from previous trilogies while its at it, and is generally a nonsensical jumble of things that were deemed to be cool.
So, yeah. The PT tells a better story than the ST does. But the ST is far and away better presented. A pig in lipstick is still a pig or however that saying goes.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
For me, a coherent story trumps all. My own love for the setting can fill in the blanks left by shitty acting editing. But the ideas of the PT: of a little nothing slave boy, destined for greatness and bring about both ruination and, eventually, salvation to the galaxy is amazing. The decadent and corrupt government, and the complacent and inbred (is that the right metaphor? I'll run with it...) order of space wizards who protect is are at the height of their folly and ripe to be overthrown by the magnificent and conniving evil space wizard. That's a story I can get behind, even though the original storyteller did an absolute shit job of telling it.
The ST started off rehashing the OT with new characters, who are good, but I've heard this exact same story before. The second part of the story drags a bit, but has some interesting things to say about finding a new way forward, and how doing things as they were done in past does not work anymore, etc. And the third part completely invalidates the second part, abandons things brought up in the first part and along the way invalidates the heroic redemption and salvation of the nothing slave boy from previous trilogies while its at it, and is generally a nonsensical jumble of things that were deemed to be cool.
So, yeah. The PT tells a better story than the ST does. But the ST is far and away better presented. A pig in lipstick is still a pig or however that saying goes.
The ST will always be better for me because even though TFA is a retread it's really well told and acted and gets what Star Wars IS. Now, you can say it's very easy to get that when you're just tracing over the old one, but a lot of movies have tried to follow the model and have failed. Rey, Poe, and Finn will always be great, well acted characters even if they were basically entirely wasted potential. The scene where Poe and Finn are escaping on the TIE and Finn is frantically learning how to use the guns on this thing and they're cheering for each other? That's Star Wars. The scene where an unlikely hero, pressed into action pulls the lightsaber from the snow to accept a challenge from a foe who outmatches her? That's Star Wars. Rey fighting Kylo Ren in the snow is a more substantial, important, and visceral lightsaber fight than anything in the prequel trilogy except for possibly Anakin vs Obi-Wan, and I would still argue TFA is the better one.
TLJ at least tried to do something new and exciting while being handcuffed to the not thought out decisions of JJ Abrams. It was a great movie that offered something new for fans, and the ending of it is a suitable ending for the whole fucking series, you don't need TROS at all. For me, the sequel trilogy will always end with Rey lifting the boulders to save the Resistance as they escape on the Falcon to be the spark of hope that eventually saves the galaxy after the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker.
TROS doesn't ruin the sequel trilogy, it's just superflous. It's the appendix of Star Wars, you can excise it if it's bothering you with no harm done, the story already has a conclusion and it doesn't change anything from the end of TLJ. The Resistance still rebounds to end the First Order.
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I think AOTC is probably worse on the individual merits but ROS is clearly the most disappointing of the bunch because it's actually got all the elements necessary to be good but it's just terribly made. AOTC I expected nothing from after TPM and it basically delivered on that.
Although I'm torn on whether TPM is worse then AOTC for being literally entirely pointless.
Slander. Into Darkness was at least entertaining the first time when I wasn't thinking too hard about it.
Said anyone who ever saw anything with JJ Abrams' name attached to it.
I like that you've decided you hate the movie without having seen it.
I didn't read that as "I have decided to hate it", more "I feel that watching it at home on a service I already pay for is an investment commensurate with my expectations, and I probably would have felt bad about spending $30 to see it in the theater" (which, for what it's worth, is precisely how I feel about having spent $30 to see it in the theater - not hate, just ...I coulda had a fifth of something nice and watched it on the teevee later instead and that would've been better use of resources).
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Am I not going to get a 4k copy when it is released because I was so disappointed by it?? I don't know if I'd be satisfied if it was just on D+, even though I'd be loathe to watch it. I mean, I'm the guy who waited an extra year or so to read the new GoT or Expanse books until they were out in paperback, so they'd match the other books on the shelf. Am I really going to leave a hole on my movie shelf?
*sigh* Probably not. Fuck you, Star Wars. Fuck you.
(I am NOT paying day one price for it though. I'll wait until it drops significantly)
Also it had Robocop
I absolutely haven't, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that I've decided to hate the movie. I expect I won't like the movie, but I'm going to give it as fair a shake as I can, and I would think that my recent posts about my rewatch of the Prequel Trilogy would back me up on that. I love Star Wars, and even more than that I want to fully explore what I think works and doesn't work in each of the films.
When you talked about "immunizing yourself" (which you typically only do against something that's horrible, like small pox or measles), I read it as you having heard it was bad, spoiling yourself to confirm it was bad, and then waiting to watch it until you could do it for free, since it is bad.
That may have been an uncharitable read.
I apologize.
For what it's worth, I thought it was a great movie. Not flawless (but what is?), and a lot of the critique levelled against it feels like it would equally well apply to the OT and thus (to me) feels a bit disingenous.
I don't want to hate the movie, though, and now that I won't really be paying for it, and now that I don't expect much of it, I'm hoping I'll be able to come away being pleasantly surprised.
It’s like the movie zigged when it should have zagged every time, and after that first misstep, it could never get back on track.
That depends entirely on whether or not you consider actively going backwards pointless.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I hated it but appreciated the view into where all these characters came from
I guess I could see it being the opening prologue of a better movie telling the story of our characters’ early days
8-10s- Rebels - The best moments in Star Wars and serviceable adventure otherwise. Give me a follow up.
- Mandalorian - Solid fun with an interesting view of the setting. It's basically a live-action Filoni cartoon in tone, for better or worse.
- RotJ - assuming I blank the Special Edition additions from my memory
- ESB - It's really good, yes, but I can't imagine watching it by itself so...?
- ANH - It's really good and stands alone I just like the other two better
- TCW - 3ish seasons of okay, ~4 more of great, but I still struggle personally to wholeheartedly enjoy a prequel leading to a well-established disaster
- RO - Doomed prequel problem but it's an interesting story for the setting and it's wellmade
- TFA - I liked it in a vacuum but it's the worst ST movie for how it set up the setting
- TLJ - it has stupid writing and style-over-substance as bad as TFA, and I dislike parts of it far more than anything specific in TFA, even though it's also got really good and interesting ideas
- TRoS - it's sort of fun and while the beginning is dire I don't mind it much after they hit the wreckage scenes, though it still has hiccups after that
- TPM - dumb bits, admittedly pointless, Anakin and Jar Jar (Anakin is worse), but it's the only PT I'd watch without the driving force of a full rewatch
- Resistance - It has a few strong episodes, a few okay episodes, and a ton of absolute trash
- RotS - Doomed prequel problem, even if it's arguably the best constructed and written of the PT
- AOTC - I remembered it as the sole completely unwatchable Star Wars movie, but time and memes have softened the impact of Anakin's lines and other nonsense so it's at least not that bad now
6-7s
3-5s
I still haven't watched Solo somehow, I'll be getting to that soon though since I won't drag my heels nearly as long watching the rest of the movies as I did going from TPM to AoTC. Ah, and I'd toss Jedi: Fallen Order in around TCW as a great canon story--probably above it.
edit: I...may have written out this list before, now that I think about it? Or one similar to it? Oh well.
I love how the Snowtrooper is supposed to be getting shot but instead looks like they're doing a belly laugh.
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Plenty more great shots here.
For a hardcore shadows fan such as myself this was like finding the Ark of the Covenant.
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RoS is like a spoiler rich kid who was handed greatness and wants praise for nuthin. Show your fuckin work, JJ!
They are uniformly terrible films
K
Not even close.
I could literally write you an essay on all the ways TROS beautifully connected to the rest of the franchise and ended the saga.
These types of conversations are getting tiresome though. It's not the opinion that get's me, some of my good friends can't stand the ST and TROS but we always have good faith discussions and debates on it that expand our understanding of our positions and also teach us to listen to where the other side is coming from and learn from it. It's the sureness and the bile behind the words used in many cases online (hardly ever in person though, funny that) that kills discussion so quickly. When (in my opinion, I fully realize and admit I'm not infallible and could be wrong on things) these things people are saying aren't even accurate, especially a majority of the "plot holes" people come up with, and they are so.... to put it kindly... sure of themselves and....overzealous in trying to get their point across... it can be incredibly incredibly annoying to read and/or listen to, to the point where I'd prefer to just shut down rather than have any type of meaningful discussion. This type of stuff is damaging the community IMO.
Also Shadows of the Empire is an 80's retro-futuristic Sci-Fi movie (only done in the 90's) that comes the closest to fulfilling GL's Flash Gordon fantasy than any other Star Wars property prove me wrong...
I mean have you seen Chewie's buzzcut and eyepatch? Have you seen Dash Rendar's personality and skills? Xizor is practically Ming in green paint... I'm not sure where this came from its just a thought I had while looking at the concept art. Oh and those shoulder pads.
Shoulder pads 4 lyfe top 5 iconic star wars accessories.
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They may have been the worst movies, but then the ST came along and lowered the bar. (ROS, in particular, sunk it into an ocean trench.)
This is just crazy talk. I’m not a huge fan of how the ST played out, but they’re empirically better films. This whole thread has me gobsmacked.
You could actually do that, instead of hinting that you possibly, maybe could every couple pages.
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Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
The only area where I'd agree the ST uniformly outmatches the PT is in visual effects. The entire PT looked iffy when it was released and looks terribly outdated now, but the ST looks decent enough that at least that part of it will hold up.
In terms of quality of everything else, I think the most I could agree with is that there are parts of the ST that are better than the PT. If you strip away everything in the ST that is just a straight ripoff of the OT (and there's a fuckload of it), you're looking at a pretty slim selection of anything to even compare. Even TLJ, the best of the lot, is hugely problematic in dumping on franchise favorites while expending zero effort to justify or earn that crap; on top of that, it's a lurching mess of a film that can't make up it's mind to hurry up or slow down, with plotholes that can stop an AT-AT. And that's the best film of the ST, by far.
I wouldn't put the PT or ST down as quality filmwork, but the ST's ridiculous and crippling addiction to callbacks and rehashing over anything resembling a coherent story puts it on about the same level for me as the PT's potentially interesting, but very poorly executed, story. A competent filmmaker could remake the PT into something awesome and keep much of the same story, but a competent filmmaker would take the ST and dump the whole thing in the trash for being disconnected fanservicey crap. The ST highs are mostly callbacks or ripoffs of the original series, and the lows are reeeeeaaaallly low and plentiful.
I can get on board with this. But also the acting across the ST is far beyond the PT.
It’s really a shame someone more talented didn’t write and direct the PT. It’s a more cohesive story, for sure.
The PT, however, used a pile of established, respected actors but also stuck them in big blue rooms with a handful of props. Shit, a lot of the time the "sets" were literally nothing but blue boxes and blue walls. Then they made a bunch of the characters in conversations CG as well, so you had real people walking through blue rooms conversing with other real humans while trying to also converse with characters that aren't there. Even legendary actors struggle with that level of disconnect, even with competent writing and directing instead of some of the clunkiest, most wooden dialogue imaginable.
Which is not to downplay the efforts of the ST actors, just to say that ST's effects were done in a vastly superior fashion to the point the it also had a positive effect on the actors being able to engage with the scenes instead of having no fucking clue as to what is going on around them in the added effects. Those actors were definitely into what they were doing, whereas hardly anybody in the PT seems to want to be there.
Completely agree. One of the reasons I can’t get into the Clone Wars show is because of how just mind-numbingly stupid the ideas from the PT are.
Thats definitely something that I don't like about the second and third movie; everything looks like a slightly more expensive version of those 90's pc games where they film someone walking around on a green screen and stick them over a completely incongruous cg background. I can't get past the scenes of people doing bad acting while floating in the middle of a jpeg of Palpatines perfectly symmetrical and bland office.
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The movie is also so poorly paced and all of the action makes basically no sense and when you step back from it for two seconds you realize that the plot was sprinkled in between all of these cool set pieces and they needed some twine to connect them.
Like what the fuck is the weird power plant doing under the palace and why is it so big and also under the palace? What are they doing in there? What is the point of the weird shielding that separates Obi-Wan from Qui-Gon during the fight? Why does the Droid army land on the opposite side of the planet from where they want to attack? Why does a spacefighter have a child sized helmet inside of it? Why would a child build a clumsy protocol droid to help his mom around the house? How would a slave even know what the fuck a protocol droid is? How does Anakin even reach what I assume have to be floor pedals to pilot the ship?
The saving grace of the movie is the "God WHY?!" elements of it only happen after you see the movie instead of slapping you in the face the entire time you're watching like TROS.
The ST started off rehashing the OT with new characters, who are good, but I've heard this exact same story before. The second part of the story drags a bit, but has some interesting things to say about finding a new way forward, and how doing things as they were done in past does not work anymore, etc. And the third part completely invalidates the second part, abandons things brought up in the first part and along the way invalidates the heroic redemption and salvation of the nothing slave boy from previous trilogies while its at it, and is generally a nonsensical jumble of things that were deemed to be cool.
So, yeah. The PT tells a better story than the ST does. But the ST is far and away better presented. A pig in lipstick is still a pig or however that saying goes.
The ST will always be better for me because even though TFA is a retread it's really well told and acted and gets what Star Wars IS. Now, you can say it's very easy to get that when you're just tracing over the old one, but a lot of movies have tried to follow the model and have failed. Rey, Poe, and Finn will always be great, well acted characters even if they were basically entirely wasted potential. The scene where Poe and Finn are escaping on the TIE and Finn is frantically learning how to use the guns on this thing and they're cheering for each other? That's Star Wars. The scene where an unlikely hero, pressed into action pulls the lightsaber from the snow to accept a challenge from a foe who outmatches her? That's Star Wars. Rey fighting Kylo Ren in the snow is a more substantial, important, and visceral lightsaber fight than anything in the prequel trilogy except for possibly Anakin vs Obi-Wan, and I would still argue TFA is the better one.
TLJ at least tried to do something new and exciting while being handcuffed to the not thought out decisions of JJ Abrams. It was a great movie that offered something new for fans, and the ending of it is a suitable ending for the whole fucking series, you don't need TROS at all. For me, the sequel trilogy will always end with Rey lifting the boulders to save the Resistance as they escape on the Falcon to be the spark of hope that eventually saves the galaxy after the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker.
TROS doesn't ruin the sequel trilogy, it's just superflous. It's the appendix of Star Wars, you can excise it if it's bothering you with no harm done, the story already has a conclusion and it doesn't change anything from the end of TLJ. The Resistance still rebounds to end the First Order.