The PT describes the rise of the evil wizard. The OT describes the fall of the evil wizard. It's not that I think the PT are better made movies, it's that the ST describes the fall of the same goddamn evil wizard. As part of a whole, the PT is bad and the ST is superfluous. I guess as a companion set to the 3 actually good movies, I prefer the bad, different movies to the competently made, unnecessary do overs.
The ST isn't about Palpatine until TROS and it's one of the dumbest things that movie does.
Hell, the OT isn't really about Palpatine at all. He doesn't even really show up till the end of the last movie and he's there mostly as a supporting character in the Luke vs Vader confrontation that ROTJ was actually about (for the Luke portion anyway).
The only parts of the main 9 Star Wars movies that are all about Palpatine's stuff are the PT and TROS and those are not coincidentally the parts that suck.
The ST is a bad, incoherent, self-contradictory story that shits on the previous, better story and told in a horrible way.
There's no question that the PT is better than the ST. Much like there is no question that a swift kick in the balls is better than the ST. That's not praise for the PT or for kicks in the balls, but an observation of the very, very long list of things that are better than the ST.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
The weird thing is that Ian McDiarmid is a fucking treasure as a total over the top Saturday morning cartoon villain but all the shit his dumb character does is also the worst, except in RotJ where it's perfect.
The weird thing is that Ian McDiarmid is a fucking treasure as a total over the top Saturday morning cartoon villain but all the shit his dumb character does is also the worst, except in RotJ where it's perfect.
He's fine as Senator/Chancellor Palpatine. I'd say the opera scene is the best low key scene in the entire saga, and McDiarmid carries the entire thing.
Ian McDiarmid is still enjoyable as hell in the prequels so his scenery chewing can go distances, but even he couldn't sell me on his scenes in TRoS.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
TRoS has some of the worst cinematography in the entire saga. It’s a bad movie with a bad story told poorly.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The weird thing is that Ian McDiarmid is a fucking treasure as a total over the top Saturday morning cartoon villain but all the shit his dumb character does is also the worst, except in RotJ where it's perfect.
That's because he has a purpose in ROTJ within a good story and he doesn't anywhere else.
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
I could literally write you an essay on all the ways TROS beautifully connected to the rest of the franchise and ended the saga.
You could actually do that, instead of hinting that you possibly, maybe could every couple pages.
Cept I already did, and I'm just tired of writing it out over and over again, the search bar is your friend.
Also I havent posted in this thread in months... for the very reasons I'm talking about here... so citation needed.
This kind of passive aggressive response is exactly what I'm talking about and why I DONT want to keep repeating myself and why I dont think a good-faith convo is possible. I wish the people with so much bile for the stuff would just realize that this is what it is now and to go find something else to their tastes rather than yell about it every 10 seconds online as if that will change anything (or speak on it as if it's an objectively bad thing and as if everyone's already in agreement with them on it). The bubbles and echo chambers in the SW community are getting ridiculous... to the point where I have to make it a special rule in my community that you can't gang up and bully people or personally attack them for their opinion. In person this is never an issue, especially at large conventions, but online it's getting insane. The fanbase (at least online) is fracturing into tribes that war with each other constantly (over and over again... over the same exact thing that's a subjective opinion anyways) and conduct purity tests (on BOTH sides of the argument), and its just sad to see. Its the exact opposite message from what SW tries to teach.
It's also off-putting to people who might have interesting things to contribute otherwise.
I could literally write you an essay on all the ways TROS beautifully connected to the rest of the franchise and ended the saga.
You could actually do that, instead of hinting that you possibly, maybe could every couple pages.
Cept I already did, and I'm just tired of writing it out over and over again, the search bar is your friend.
Seems like a lot of people missed it, then, counting the agrees. I'll see if I can find it, then.
Also this kind of passive aggressive anger is exactly what I'm talking about and why I DONT want to keep repeating myself and why I dont think a good-faith convo is possible.
Dude, if you could actually explain why TROS is awesome, I'd be impressed. I'm glad that you liked it! I liked it just fine as an "in the moment" movie; I don't like it as the capstone to 8 other movies and especially as a follow-up to TLJ.
They may have been the worst movies, but then the ST came along and lowered the bar. (ROS, in particular, sunk it into an ocean trench.)
This is just crazy talk. I’m not a huge fan of how the ST played out, but they’re empirically better films. This whole thread has me gobsmacked.
ROS gave me PT feelings, actually some of it is dumber the PT stuff, especially when it went full anime with "I am all the sith! and I am all the jedi"
*slow wank motion*
I think I've tried pretty hard to have good-faith discussions here (including for example how I both have stated that I find parts of TROS good and interesting, and that taken as a whole didn't find it to be the final chapter of the trilogy-of-trilogies I personally was looking for) and I would like to suggest that we could, by all of us working at it and trying to be the people who can do it, make this thread one place in the accursed hellscape of the Internets where such discussions are welcome, and productive.
One thing I will say - unlike the post-RotJ years, I fear we're not going to get to see much more of the apparently-really-cool new ship designs (updated Y-Wing and B-Wing, that new interceptor-ish TIE) from TROS now that The Franchise is casting its eyes 200 years before the PT for new material, and that makes my inner notebook-doodling, d6-system-RPG-playing, teenage nerd unhappy.
Honestly comments about "The ST" are generally just not gonna be useful most of the time because of the huge clash JJ and/or Disney created between TROS and TLJ and just the general fact that the whole trilogy is a bit all over the place because of no background creative vision and no desire by TROS to tie everything together in any coherent way.
The OT itself is easier to judge as a trilogy but still a bit seat-of-the-pants in many ways. The PT is probably really the only work that's a full 3 movie creative vision and can most easily be judged that way. (unfortunately it sucks)
I'm not sure "The ST does this" or "The ST is X, Y and Z" are really meaningful statements a lot of the time because frequently it's like "Well, which movie? Cause this one was X and this one wasn't."
Star Wars is the non-video game equivalent to Final Fantasy for me. Both were franchises that I not only loved as a kid, but were a foundational part of my upbringing. I mean, what else is a kid in a wheelchair living in rural NH going to do during summer when both parents are working?
And both have, IMO, almost completely come off the rails. That doesn't mean that everything is 100% bad. Star Wars TV, with the exception of Resistance, has been good to excellent. And I've played Final Fantasy XIV for 5-6 years with no intention of stopping. But the 'mainline' experience, to me, hasn't been good in decades. For me, Final Fantasy completely shit the bed with XV, to the point that I have my doubts that I'll like anything not related to XIV going forward (I really disliked the VII Remake demo as well). I havn't seen RoS yet, and I'm not sure I want to. Between the spoilers, which read terribly, and the "They can fly now?" sneak peek, which for me was pure cringe, I'm getting FFXV terribleness vibes from it. And I'm not sure I want to force myself to sit through 2-2.5 hours of something I likely will find horrible.
They may have been the worst movies, but then the ST came along and lowered the bar. (ROS, in particular, sunk it into an ocean trench.)
This is just crazy talk. I’m not a huge fan of how the ST played out, but they’re empirically better films. This whole thread has me gobsmacked.
ROS gave me PT feelings, actually some of it is dumber the PT stuff, especially when it went full anime with "I am all the sith! and I am all the jedi"
*slow wank motion*
Here's my literally-30s-of-thought idea on how that scene could work better (while changing a minimum amount of *vague wave* everything else):
Palpatine goes through his spiel where he realizes Kylo and Rey are a Force Dyad, and how that could potentially bring him all the way back to life instead of Sith spirit reincarnation.
The Sith spirits in the room key in on this, and as he's draining / shooting Kylo / Rey, they start moving in towards Palpatine. Rey starts hearing the Jedi tell her to stand up, Palpatine says his thing about "I am ALL THE SITH!"
As he keeps pulling in more and more power to fight her, the Sith spirits start grabbing at him trying to grab some for themselves, because they're Sith. So he has to spend a small amount of his power and attention keeping them at bay. That allows Rey to stand up with all the Jedi supporting her, and then - hey, actual Force Ghosts! They're all standing behind Rey, with Luke and Leia having a hand on each of her shoulders, Anakin and Obi-Wan and Kanan and Yoda and Qui-gon on theirs, etc., etc., etc., the "And I am all the Jedi" line as the Light Side supports and defends. Maybe instead of just telling her to get up, they bring back the Jedi Code from KOTOR if you want to reintroduce that.
Then Rey drops her lightsaber and does a bigger version of the "Yoda reflects Sidious's lightning" from RotS, leading to disintegration effects everywhere as the Sith are eradicated.
I will say that one thing the ST gets extremely right is casting. Rey, Finn, and Poe were all great and played off each other very well. If they had written a new trilogy 100 years after the OT where Luke and Han and Leia are just myths/legends and we introduce those 3 characters, I think you could tell a great story.
The fact that TROS shit all over the excellent "goodbye" we got for Carrie Fisher in TLJ and then tried to ghoulish and ham-handedly do it's own this is why it's unforgivable.
The fact that TROS shit all over the excellent "goodbye" we got for Carrie Fisher in TLJ and then tried to ghoulish and ham-handedly do it's own this is why it's unforgivable.
Reusing the hug between Leia and Rey, but with Leia as a Force ghost?
I will say that one thing the ST gets extremely right is casting. Rey, Finn, and Poe were all great and played off each other very well. If they had written a new trilogy 100 years after the OT where Luke and Han and Leia are just myths/legends and we introduce those 3 characters, I think you could tell a great story.
Sadly that's not what we got.
I agree except that I think it works even with the old trio still there. A handoff is not exactly what I would have done, but I can understand why they felt it had to be done and it's not a bad idea in and of itself.
Probably the biggest thing it made me want, honestly, was a 4th trilogy with just the ST trio in it so they could stand on their own a bit more and also cause I like them all.
The fact that TROS shit all over the excellent "goodbye" we got for Carrie Fisher in TLJ and then tried to ghoulish and ham-handedly do it's own this is why it's unforgivable.
TBH for me, TLJ shat all over the goodbye when she turned into Leia Poppins. On reflection I'm glad they kept the rest of her work in the film, but that's one of the reasons I haven't been able to complete a second viewing of TLJ.
I might try again now that I've seen RotS, because while I had fun watching RotS, at least TLJ wasn't a mess.
The fact that TROS shit all over the excellent "goodbye" we got for Carrie Fisher in TLJ and then tried to ghoulish and ham-handedly do it's own this is why it's unforgivable.
TBH for me, TLJ shat all over the goodbye when she turned into Leia Poppins. On reflection I'm glad they kept the rest of her work in the film, but that's one of the reasons I haven't been able to complete a second viewing of TLJ.
I might try again now that I've seen RotS, because while I had fun watching RotS, at least TLJ wasn't a mess.
Would having known that Leia trained in the ways of the Force with Luke before her Leia Poppins moment have changed your opinion of it?
In the scenes leading upto it I was convinced that Kylo was gonna off both his parents. But her surivial, while being cheezy for sure, was not a surprise to me because, as an EU reader, Leia having had not insignificant amounts of training was kinda of a no-brainer.
I was a big EU reader too, but that scene was probably the hardest one to swallow in the whole movie. Maybe it would be one thing if she used the force to hold onto something before she got blown out of the bridge, but some combination of the camera work and how long she was out in space made me roll my eyes.
Should have killed off her character right there. Kylo dealing with responsibility for killing his dad and his mom, despite not technically pulling the trigger in the latter, would have been better.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I could handwave that Leia had some Jedi training in the last couple decades but yeah, her suddenly whipping out the Force for anything is pretty much the perfect example of how the entire ST fails to give a half a crap about setting up or explaining anything at all.
In the OT, we get at least a couple lines explaining why Luke can pilot a fighter before he pilots a fighter. Rey, being totally isolated on a desert planet, can just randomly fly a starship with no explanation. Why does Han end up as decoration for Jabba's lair? Oh, he owes Jabba a bunch of cash (ANH) and there are a bunch of bounty hunters after him (ESB). Why the fuck is Ben off looking for Sith shit? Well, the last movie had him kill Snoke, which apparently links to, um, nothing that has anything to do with his current quest. Why is Palpatine in charge of the Empire? Oh, he finally dissolved the Senate and has put the military in charge. Why is Snoke in charge of the First Order? Just is, until the trilogy basically retcons itself.
Seriously, all we needed was like one freaking scene where Leia blows some minds with some Force use in a casual way (or even better, a tactically useful way). Instead, she just rolls out the Force use the one time and never again, on top of the scene being shot in a terrible, goofy way. At least have her talk about training with Luke years ago or something; would've taken all of five seconds for her to confide something like that in Rey.
What could Leia have done that would have been "blow(ing) some minds with some Force use in a casual way" that would have felt more earned than pulling herself back to the Raddus? I'm struggling to imagine what else could have been in TFA or TLJ that wouldn't come in for exactly this criticism that it's a cheap reveal of abilities that should have been demonstrated or grounded in the setting by some yet other, yet earlier thing.
Shit, right before the bridge gets blown up, she connects with Kylo and braces herself for the impact.
I’d say that’s using the Force.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The stuff about "feeling" anybody doesn't suggest any kind of training. Luke was able to "call" to Leia for help despite her having no training, so anything like that is more callback than background. Up until she pulls herself into the ship, we only know from the OT that she has Force potential, not that she's ever done anything with it.
As far as having her do something Force-related, it would have been as easy as her disrupting the starfighter attack on her ship and then following it up with a line about it being something she learned with Luke. Simple, significant, and easily lays the groundwork for why she displays some trained ability later on. Or even just something as minor as pulling over a chair to sit down, then explaining she tries not to do it much in public because it can make people nervous. This is dead easy stuff to set up.
Like I said, I personally don't have beef with that scene other than it being shot badly, but it's one of the staggering pile of cases in the ST where something just happens in the ST and there's no setup for it. My rule of thumb is that if *I* am having to come up with an explanation for a plot point because the writing didn't cover it, then it either isn't a naturally progressing story and/or it's a failure in the writing. And the ST is just packed with failed writing.
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The ST isn't about Palpatine until TROS and it's one of the dumbest things that movie does.
Hell, the OT isn't really about Palpatine at all. He doesn't even really show up till the end of the last movie and he's there mostly as a supporting character in the Luke vs Vader confrontation that ROTJ was actually about (for the Luke portion anyway).
The only parts of the main 9 Star Wars movies that are all about Palpatine's stuff are the PT and TROS and those are not coincidentally the parts that suck.
The PT is a good story told very badly.
The ST is a bad, incoherent, self-contradictory story that shits on the previous, better story and told in a horrible way.
There's no question that the PT is better than the ST. Much like there is no question that a swift kick in the balls is better than the ST. That's not praise for the PT or for kicks in the balls, but an observation of the very, very long list of things that are better than the ST.
He's fine as Senator/Chancellor Palpatine. I'd say the opera scene is the best low key scene in the entire saga, and McDiarmid carries the entire thing.
That's because he has a purpose in ROTJ within a good story and he doesn't anywhere else.
Cept I already did, and I'm just tired of writing it out over and over again, the search bar is your friend.
Also I havent posted in this thread in months... for the very reasons I'm talking about here... so citation needed.
This kind of passive aggressive response is exactly what I'm talking about and why I DONT want to keep repeating myself and why I dont think a good-faith convo is possible. I wish the people with so much bile for the stuff would just realize that this is what it is now and to go find something else to their tastes rather than yell about it every 10 seconds online as if that will change anything (or speak on it as if it's an objectively bad thing and as if everyone's already in agreement with them on it). The bubbles and echo chambers in the SW community are getting ridiculous... to the point where I have to make it a special rule in my community that you can't gang up and bully people or personally attack them for their opinion. In person this is never an issue, especially at large conventions, but online it's getting insane. The fanbase (at least online) is fracturing into tribes that war with each other constantly (over and over again... over the same exact thing that's a subjective opinion anyways) and conduct purity tests (on BOTH sides of the argument), and its just sad to see. Its the exact opposite message from what SW tries to teach.
It's also off-putting to people who might have interesting things to contribute otherwise.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
Seems like a lot of people missed it, then, counting the agrees. I'll see if I can find it, then.
Dude, if you could actually explain why TROS is awesome, I'd be impressed. I'm glad that you liked it! I liked it just fine as an "in the moment" movie; I don't like it as the capstone to 8 other movies and especially as a follow-up to TLJ.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
"Well this is good on paper because of x, y, and z" is irrelevant. Execution is a lot of the grade.
ROS gave me PT feelings, actually some of it is dumber the PT stuff, especially when it went full anime with "I am all the sith! and I am all the jedi"
*slow wank motion*
One thing I will say - unlike the post-RotJ years, I fear we're not going to get to see much more of the apparently-really-cool new ship designs (updated Y-Wing and B-Wing, that new interceptor-ish TIE) from TROS now that The Franchise is casting its eyes 200 years before the PT for new material, and that makes my inner notebook-doodling, d6-system-RPG-playing, teenage nerd unhappy.
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The OT itself is easier to judge as a trilogy but still a bit seat-of-the-pants in many ways. The PT is probably really the only work that's a full 3 movie creative vision and can most easily be judged that way. (unfortunately it sucks)
I'm not sure "The ST does this" or "The ST is X, Y and Z" are really meaningful statements a lot of the time because frequently it's like "Well, which movie? Cause this one was X and this one wasn't."
I dunno. Zombie Sheev was pretty baller.
I mean, I don't appreciate why he was there, plot wise . But I did appreciate that Ian showed up, ya know?
And both have, IMO, almost completely come off the rails. That doesn't mean that everything is 100% bad. Star Wars TV, with the exception of Resistance, has been good to excellent. And I've played Final Fantasy XIV for 5-6 years with no intention of stopping. But the 'mainline' experience, to me, hasn't been good in decades. For me, Final Fantasy completely shit the bed with XV, to the point that I have my doubts that I'll like anything not related to XIV going forward (I really disliked the VII Remake demo as well). I havn't seen RoS yet, and I'm not sure I want to. Between the spoilers, which read terribly, and the "They can fly now?" sneak peek, which for me was pure cringe, I'm getting FFXV terribleness vibes from it. And I'm not sure I want to force myself to sit through 2-2.5 hours of something I likely will find horrible.
Expanding Rey's backstory? Neat!
Making her Sheev’s grandaughter? Ugh.
Giant Rebel fleet? Excellent!
It does nothing.
The Knights of Ren? Cool!
They’re such chumps it’s like Boba Fett and Phasma had kids.
Actual stakes with characters dying? Awesome!
Psych! Everyone lives! Except Snap, but who cares about Snap?
The slightly chubby X-Wing pilot with the beard? He had a beard, yes?
Wait, he died? I thought it was Lando's co-pilot from Jedi. Or was that one of those "#StarWars confirms" deaths?
Here's my literally-30s-of-thought idea on how that scene could work better (while changing a minimum amount of *vague wave* everything else):
Palpatine goes through his spiel where he realizes Kylo and Rey are a Force Dyad, and how that could potentially bring him all the way back to life instead of Sith spirit reincarnation.
The Sith spirits in the room key in on this, and as he's draining / shooting Kylo / Rey, they start moving in towards Palpatine. Rey starts hearing the Jedi tell her to stand up, Palpatine says his thing about "I am ALL THE SITH!"
As he keeps pulling in more and more power to fight her, the Sith spirits start grabbing at him trying to grab some for themselves, because they're Sith. So he has to spend a small amount of his power and attention keeping them at bay. That allows Rey to stand up with all the Jedi supporting her, and then - hey, actual Force Ghosts! They're all standing behind Rey, with Luke and Leia having a hand on each of her shoulders, Anakin and Obi-Wan and Kanan and Yoda and Qui-gon on theirs, etc., etc., etc., the "And I am all the Jedi" line as the Light Side supports and defends. Maybe instead of just telling her to get up, they bring back the Jedi Code from KOTOR if you want to reintroduce that.
Then Rey drops her lightsaber and does a bigger version of the "Yoda reflects Sidious's lightning" from RotS, leading to disintegration effects everywhere as the Sith are eradicated.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Oh, sure. But there’s ways to add on to Rey’s background without the half-assed attempt to keep TLJ “technically correct”.
Sadly that's not what we got.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
But it's not technically correct! One of her parents is a runaway clone of Emperor Palpatine. That's like the literal opposite of "nobody".
Reusing the hug between Leia and Rey, but with Leia as a Force ghost?
That might have worked.
What we needed was an expansion of Rey's .... frontstory. TLJ set her up, Ep 9 needed to show where she goes from there.
I agree except that I think it works even with the old trio still there. A handoff is not exactly what I would have done, but I can understand why they felt it had to be done and it's not a bad idea in and of itself.
Probably the biggest thing it made me want, honestly, was a 4th trilogy with just the ST trio in it so they could stand on their own a bit more and also cause I like them all.
TBH for me, TLJ shat all over the goodbye when she turned into Leia Poppins. On reflection I'm glad they kept the rest of her work in the film, but that's one of the reasons I haven't been able to complete a second viewing of TLJ.
I might try again now that I've seen RotS, because while I had fun watching RotS, at least TLJ wasn't a mess.
Would having known that Leia trained in the ways of the Force with Luke before her Leia Poppins moment have changed your opinion of it?
In the scenes leading upto it I was convinced that Kylo was gonna off both his parents. But her surivial, while being cheezy for sure, was not a surprise to me because, as an EU reader, Leia having had not insignificant amounts of training was kinda of a no-brainer.
Should have killed off her character right there. Kylo dealing with responsibility for killing his dad and his mom, despite not technically pulling the trigger in the latter, would have been better.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
In the OT, we get at least a couple lines explaining why Luke can pilot a fighter before he pilots a fighter. Rey, being totally isolated on a desert planet, can just randomly fly a starship with no explanation. Why does Han end up as decoration for Jabba's lair? Oh, he owes Jabba a bunch of cash (ANH) and there are a bunch of bounty hunters after him (ESB). Why the fuck is Ben off looking for Sith shit? Well, the last movie had him kill Snoke, which apparently links to, um, nothing that has anything to do with his current quest. Why is Palpatine in charge of the Empire? Oh, he finally dissolved the Senate and has put the military in charge. Why is Snoke in charge of the First Order? Just is, until the trilogy basically retcons itself.
Seriously, all we needed was like one freaking scene where Leia blows some minds with some Force use in a casual way (or even better, a tactically useful way). Instead, she just rolls out the Force use the one time and never again, on top of the scene being shot in a terrible, goofy way. At least have her talk about training with Luke years ago or something; would've taken all of five seconds for her to confide something like that in Rey.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
And she probably felt it when Starkiller took out not-Coruscant. But the movie was structured so that the audience hadn't met her yet.
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I’d say that’s using the Force.
As far as having her do something Force-related, it would have been as easy as her disrupting the starfighter attack on her ship and then following it up with a line about it being something she learned with Luke. Simple, significant, and easily lays the groundwork for why she displays some trained ability later on. Or even just something as minor as pulling over a chair to sit down, then explaining she tries not to do it much in public because it can make people nervous. This is dead easy stuff to set up.
Like I said, I personally don't have beef with that scene other than it being shot badly, but it's one of the staggering pile of cases in the ST where something just happens in the ST and there's no setup for it. My rule of thumb is that if *I* am having to come up with an explanation for a plot point because the writing didn't cover it, then it either isn't a naturally progressing story and/or it's a failure in the writing. And the ST is just packed with failed writing.