I kind of want to get a 12900K. Not because I need one, or it's a huge upgrade. I just want to play with undervolting it to see if I could get the temps and power draw under control while maintaining a high all-core frequency.
Someone did this and honestly, undervolting may be the way to go.
It really does seem that the new "overclocking" is really about finding your GPU/CPU efficiency point. Like when I undervolted my 3090. It runs as well as it did when it came out of the box but using much less power, with much less heat, and no spikes to crazy power draw. Seems Intel's new CPU's are in a pretty similar position. Enthusiasts who plan to daily drive them should probably spend their time figuring out how to make them run more cool and efficient, not how to squeeze performance out of them.
That’s the vid I used to figure out how to undervolt my 3080. Actually setting it takes seconds, it’s just testing to figure out how far you can push the card that can take some time. But you don’t have to push it too hard to see a difference from what I tried. That vid has some examples for 3080 & 3090 that should should give a ballpark for a 3080ti.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited November 2021
Yep, that's the video I watched as well. I also read a guide about how to specifically do some interesting things with MSI Afterburner, but I can't find it now to link it. But basically I do this:
Pull your power and temp sliders all the way up, give the card room to breath
Decide on a voltage you want to be at (for me it was 0.825Mv)
Use the MSI Afterburner Curve Editor to find the match point between that voltage and your target core speed (for my 3090 I started at 1875mhz, for a 3080 it will likely be higher)
Drag the target Mv point up to that target core speed, press L for lock in the editor, then the Apply check in MSI Afterburner
Run a bunch of stability tests, including some longer running burn in tests
Once you've decided you like the stability, reset everything in Afterburner back to the default card settings (no curve, default power, default temp)
Re-max the power/temp sliders
Set your target Core Clock on the main MSI Afterburner view to -200mhz (I'll explain this part later)
Go in to the Curved Editor and find your stable Mv/Mhz point again. DO NOT PRESS L, just press the Apply check in Afterburner
You should now have a nice gradual ramp up curve which ends at your target Mv/Mhz point
Once you're happy save everything to a profile
The reason you do the -200mhz offset thing is so that when you Apply the curve, MSI Afterburner gives you a nice clean ramp up curve. You can use RivaTuner overlay while running some games to see that your GPU will now never go above your target Mv, though the core clock may bounce around your chosen value a little. You will probably find that your first attempt is not actually perfectly stable in real game play. I originally had 1875@0.825Mv stable in synthetic benchmarks and stress tests but in real game play I was getting instability. After a bit of tweaking I've settled at 1860@0.831Mv and it's been 100% stable for me since I found that point.
Keep in mind that point of stability is going to be different from card to card and GPU to GPU. Certainly a 3080 will have different values from a 3090, but even among 3080's you're going to have silicon variance that effects it.
The thing to keep in mind with any kind of clock/voltage tweaking is that you unfortunately (unless you find it fascinating/fun) have to fully understand the process of dialing things in, since things are built with tolerances and your hardware is not identical to any other on the planet. It is a bit of work but can be well worth it.
As mentioned, you can't just slap some known numbers in, not unless you're being ultra conservative and staying close to standard spec still. However, knowing the numbers from people with similar hardware (exact combo of cards and SKUs ideally) gives you some expectations on range and how far you can push the values, and give you some idea for starting points. Don't be surprised or upset if you don't reach the same numbers as everyone else, but you should be close enough. If you're way out, you gotta check that you don't have something wrong, or just accept that you lost the silicon lottery pretty bad on occasion.
Thanks for the advice, i figured it's different between even units but yeah just never was sure how to get into it.
I'll check out the vid after work and try it out. I'll report back on whether I've set everything on fire.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I edited my post to break that sentence out and bold it. Looking at the stability point other people with your GPU have gotten is a nice starting point, but rarely can you just plug those numbers in and go. You need to be comfortable tweaking, testing, tweaking some more, and accepting that it's a long term process. Even once the synthetics tell you it's stable you'll probably still have some instability to tune out in daily gaming.
I understand this isn't really the place for this but I'm super frustrated and vaguely venting, but, after sitting at home all day waiting for my new case and graphics card from Newegg to be delivered and to sign for it, watching the street with a lot of excitement for the ontrac truck it looks as if ostracized just decided to either steal or lose it as now the darn thing says "delivered" but it certainly wasn't delivered here.
Now Newegg says 7-10 business days to investigate the claim, so no new computer build for me over Thanksgiving. Despite my hard work saving up. OnTrac hasn't replied at all. So, be careful with Newegg I guess since they ship with ontrac. Though, I've never had issues before. Who knows if I will ever get my money back.
I understand this isn't really the place for this but I'm super frustrated and vaguely venting, but, after sitting at home all day waiting for my new case and graphics card from Newegg to be delivered and to sign for it, watching the street with a lot of excitement for the ontrac truck it looks as if ostracized just decided to either steal or lose it as now the darn thing says "delivered" but it certainly wasn't delivered here.
Now Newegg says 7-10 business days to investigate the claim, so no new computer build for me over Thanksgiving. Despite my hard work saving up. OnTrac hasn't replied at all. So, be careful with Newegg I guess since they ship with ontrac. Though, I've never had issues before. Who knows if I will ever get my money back.
I've read probably a dozen stories exactly like this, it's why I don't even check the price on Newegg anymore.
What the heck is OnTrac? I don't think I've ever heard of them and I'd like to avoid them based on that experience! My last couple of things shipped were UPS/FedEx.
What the heck is OnTrac? I don't think I've ever heard of them and I'd like to avoid them based on that experience! My last couple of things shipped were UPS/FedEx.
They’ve been around for awhile. They’re a smaller shipper.
Haven’t had problems in the past, but have heard of problems.
What the heck is OnTrac? I don't think I've ever heard of them and I'd like to avoid them based on that experience! My last couple of things shipped were UPS/FedEx.
Ontrac is a west coast only delivery company, though I think they will ship anywhere from the west coast. So you'll rarely see them if you don't live here. They are a small slice of the delivery market even here.
What the heck is OnTrac? I don't think I've ever heard of them and I'd like to avoid them based on that experience! My last couple of things shipped were UPS/FedEx.
Ontrac is a west coast only delivery company, though I think they will ship anywhere from the west coast. So you'll rarely see them if you don't live here. They are a small slice of the delivery market even here.
Clearly ontrac doesn't steal or lose every package, and fedex/ups don't get everything to your door perfectly, but OnTrac seems to be like 95% success vs FedEx 99%, and (working with both them and Newegg now to try and resolve this) Ontrac customer service and response is utter garbage.
I was expecting delays, since I paid for signature delivery (stuff was expensive, don't want it left in the street) but, that's the usual drive to FedEx center annoyance sort of thing. Not this fake delivery rubbish.
So, watch out for Newegg for expensive stuff these days. You might get your stuff shipped with ontrac, and then you'll be stuck waiting weeks for resolution. Out of pocket, and no pc.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
edited November 2021
I've had nothing but good experiences with B&H, and at this point I've given them way too much money.
They sell computer goods too. Just as a recommendation. Don't have the rebates Newegg does, but after being burned for a couple hundred dollars there I no longer factor that price in.
Is there a reliable source that points out if and which SSDs that had TLC before now have QLC? There are some good deals on Sandisk Ultra 3D SSDs, but...you know
relatedly: how much does that actually matter in terms of OS and/or game performance?
I've had nothing but good experiences with B&H, and at this point I've given them way too much money.
They sell computer goods too. Just as a recommendation. Don't have the rebates Newegg does, but after being burned for a couple hundred dollars there I no longer factor that price in.
The photography store?
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
I've had nothing but good experiences with B&H, and at this point I've given them way too much money.
They sell computer goods too. Just as a recommendation. Don't have the rebates Newegg does, but after being burned for a couple hundred dollars there I no longer factor that price in.
The photography store?
Yep! They also sell computer gear.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
It's where I got my Synology 1621+. The HDDs I got from Best Buy.
I basically don't buy from electronics from Newegg or Amazon anymore.
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
B&H is a huge electronics store, and definitely not just photography stuff anymore. They have fantastic pricing as a rule (and a good used gear section).
They’re kind of colossal assholes, but at the end of the day, they’re no worse than Amazon, so I’d still go with them. I tend to prefer Micro Center, Newegg, and Adorama (in that order) for electronics/computer hardware purchases.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
If I had a Microcenter near me I'd never go anywhere else for computer goods TBH.
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minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
edited November 2021
Let me tell you, having one not only nearby, but in an Economic Development Zone (translation: sales tax is halved) is a dangerous thing.
minor incident on
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
B&H is a huge electronics store, and definitely not just photography stuff anymore. They have fantastic pricing as a rule (and a good used gear section).
They’re kind of colossal assholes, but at the end of the day, they’re no worse than Amazon, so I’d still go with them. I tend to prefer Micro Center, Newegg, and Adorama (in that order) for electronics/computer hardware purchases.
Their retail location is absolutely crazy; its a willy wonka-esque everything store, with gaming rigs, pro photography stuff, drones, audio gear, components, tools, phones, tablets, mac stuff... and in the ceiling there are these conveyors snaked around everywhere that moves the stuff you order to the front where it is bagged and waiting for you to check out.
I cannot imagine this is more efficient than just pulling parts but that's what they do here.
It is also a Jewish-run business and they close midday friday and don't reopen until sunday, which is super annoying when you get paid on friday and want to buy a new toy after work.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
I do not understand how those two options are even remotely weighing on the same scales.
Like "instead of buying this expensive block of cheese, I've decided to go with a used car."
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
I do not understand how those two options are even remotely weighing on the same scales.
Like "instead of buying this expensive block of cheese, I've decided to go with a used car."
From the perspective of "I can afford an expensive hobby, or I can put that money into the mortgage", well, maybe?
Especially if you're trying to stay at the peak of performance (whether or not that's justified).
Thanks to my wife's help (and enabling) I now have a fancy LED computer and first windowed case. Decided to go with a Sith theme for the coloring and put in Dark Rey and Darth Vader. My wife said I need to put a Kylo Ren in there as well.
The fan lights are Pong up and down the sides with a white "clash" effect at the end. I also had to toss in my FRR (Battletech) and Oosiks patch. Sadly I need to put them on risers as well as the credit chip.
The GPU is an ASUS ROG Strix GeForce RTX 3080 V2 OC Edition that I won in a Newegg Shuffle. The only reason I have this huge case since my existing case could not fit it, so my wife said "Go big or go home". Found the Corsair 5000D on discount from Woot and the rest was history (aka, buying lighting fans, 850W Corsair PSU, and finally upgraded to 32GB of RAM). Still using my old cheap cooler I bought at Fry's eons ago since I was lazy and didn't want to put in the Noctua cooler.
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
I do not understand how those two options are even remotely weighing on the same scales.
Like "instead of buying this expensive block of cheese, I've decided to go with a used car."
From the perspective of "I can afford an expensive hobby, or I can put that money into the mortgage", well, maybe?
Especially if you're trying to stay at the peak of performance (whether or not that's justified).
PC hardware depreciates, and property generally appreciates. If I was in the situation where I could either buy a new GPU or put a downpayment on an apartment I would put the downpayment on the apartment and play retrogames for a couple years until either the GPU market stabilizes or society collapses (at which point GPUs are useless anyway).
After discussions with my dad and brother I have decided to just not buy a video card and instead I'm gonna look at taking my landlady's offer and buy this apartment instead.
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
I do not understand how those two options are even remotely weighing on the same scales.
Like "instead of buying this expensive block of cheese, I've decided to go with a used car."
They start weighing on the same scale when you think start fiddling with mortgage calculators and putting the current cost on Amazon of the video card that I wanted into a deposit instead means that mortgage would get paid off almost 5 months sooner. Call me when I can - even second hand - make a worthwhile upgrade to this 1060GTX for £250 or so.
relatedly: how much does that actually matter in terms of OS and/or game performance?
Basically zero. It's more about the life of the drive; which I'd argue is largely non-existent for home users.
Yeah, I ran a drive check recently and saw that my old-ass Samsung SSD is not even at a third of its supposed TBW. Which is not to say that it can't just die, but still
Pulled the trigger on a nice sale on a Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB for the laptop.
Now I'll finally be able to download MS Flight Simulator again without having to delete everything.
( < . . .
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
I am once again looking at upgrading my PC, as I do every year or so before deciding I can't afford it. I have a bunch of components I added to my Amazon wishlist last time I was given advice, to remind myself to buy them, but I added them in 2019 so I'm guessing they're well out of date now. Researching this stuff is giving me a headache. Is a Ryzen 5 5600 better or worse than a Ryzen 7 3700? Which numbers do I want to be bigger? Do I want more, slower cores or fewer, faster cores? Why are there so many different kinds of processor??
This is what I have sitting on my wishlist:
AMD Ryzen 5 3600
ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming 4 ATX motherboard for AMD AM4 (lol what does any of that mean)
16GB of DDR4 3600MHz RAM
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe M.2 2280 Internal SSD
I have a Radeon RX 580 which I'm not planning to replace yet, and a fairly new PSU. Other than that I'll be upgrading from an Intel i5 760 and a dying HDD.
Do any of those recommended components still look okay? If I want to get a better processor what numbers are most important in deciding which is better? - let's assume for simplicity I will be getting a Ryzen of some kind.
I have that exact cpu and mobo combo and they've been working just fine for me.
If you want to improve your cpu it'd be a 3800 or 5800 I think you'd want to aim for for the increased core count. Not sure a 3700 or 5700 would necessarily be worth the bump in price but I could easily be wrong there.
I am once again looking at upgrading my PC, as I do every year or so before deciding I can't afford it. I have a bunch of components I added to my Amazon wishlist last time I was given advice, to remind myself to buy them, but I added them in 2019 so I'm guessing they're well out of date now. Researching this stuff is giving me a headache. Is a Ryzen 5 5600 better or worse than a Ryzen 7 3700? Which numbers do I want to be bigger? Do I want more, slower cores or fewer, faster cores? Why are there so many different kinds of processor??
This is what I have sitting on my wishlist:
AMD Ryzen 5 3600
ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming 4 ATX motherboard for AMD AM4 (lol what does any of that mean)
16GB of DDR4 3600MHz RAM
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe M.2 2280 Internal SSD
I have a Radeon RX 580 which I'm not planning to replace yet, and a fairly new PSU. Other than that I'll be upgrading from an Intel i5 760 and a dying HDD.
Do any of those recommended components still look okay? If I want to get a better processor what numbers are most important in deciding which is better? - let's assume for simplicity I will be getting a Ryzen of some kind.
I would get the newer 5600 over the 3600 at least, since the mobo/ram is geared towards that one. 3600mhz is the target memory speed you want for 5xxx series, it's usually 3200mhz you need for Ryzen 3600 to keep up.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I bought my daughter one of the NZXT BLD Kits for Christmas. It will be a fun way to let her figure out how to build a PC for herself. The manual it comes with is super neat, basically a Lego instruction book for how to build a PC.
the 12900K has me tempted to do a new build and sell off my 9900k parts but in actual gaming benchmarks, not looking like that big of a jump?
the new architecture/DDR5 and an excuse to downsize from full tower to mid since id be ripping all the guts out anyway is tempting but may hold off at least until DDR5 prices normalize.
Posts
It really does seem that the new "overclocking" is really about finding your GPU/CPU efficiency point. Like when I undervolted my 3090. It runs as well as it did when it came out of the box but using much less power, with much less heat, and no spikes to crazy power draw. Seems Intel's new CPU's are in a pretty similar position. Enthusiasts who plan to daily drive them should probably spend their time figuring out how to make them run more cool and efficient, not how to squeeze performance out of them.
I assume it's specific to the card itself for binning variance. Is there a nice guide I can follow on how to do it?
My 3080ti runs hotter then I'm used to and just wondering if I can makes changes to help with that.
That’s the vid I used to figure out how to undervolt my 3080. Actually setting it takes seconds, it’s just testing to figure out how far you can push the card that can take some time. But you don’t have to push it too hard to see a difference from what I tried. That vid has some examples for 3080 & 3090 that should should give a ballpark for a 3080ti.
The reason you do the -200mhz offset thing is so that when you Apply the curve, MSI Afterburner gives you a nice clean ramp up curve. You can use RivaTuner overlay while running some games to see that your GPU will now never go above your target Mv, though the core clock may bounce around your chosen value a little. You will probably find that your first attempt is not actually perfectly stable in real game play. I originally had 1875@0.825Mv stable in synthetic benchmarks and stress tests but in real game play I was getting instability. After a bit of tweaking I've settled at 1860@0.831Mv and it's been 100% stable for me since I found that point.
Keep in mind that point of stability is going to be different from card to card and GPU to GPU. Certainly a 3080 will have different values from a 3090, but even among 3080's you're going to have silicon variance that effects it.
As mentioned, you can't just slap some known numbers in, not unless you're being ultra conservative and staying close to standard spec still. However, knowing the numbers from people with similar hardware (exact combo of cards and SKUs ideally) gives you some expectations on range and how far you can push the values, and give you some idea for starting points. Don't be surprised or upset if you don't reach the same numbers as everyone else, but you should be close enough. If you're way out, you gotta check that you don't have something wrong, or just accept that you lost the silicon lottery pretty bad on occasion.
Have fun!
I'll check out the vid after work and try it out. I'll report back on whether I've set everything on fire.
Now Newegg says 7-10 business days to investigate the claim, so no new computer build for me over Thanksgiving. Despite my hard work saving up. OnTrac hasn't replied at all. So, be careful with Newegg I guess since they ship with ontrac. Though, I've never had issues before. Who knows if I will ever get my money back.
I've read probably a dozen stories exactly like this, it's why I don't even check the price on Newegg anymore.
They’ve been around for awhile. They’re a smaller shipper.
Haven’t had problems in the past, but have heard of problems.
Ontrac is a west coast only delivery company, though I think they will ship anywhere from the west coast. So you'll rarely see them if you don't live here. They are a small slice of the delivery market even here.
Clearly ontrac doesn't steal or lose every package, and fedex/ups don't get everything to your door perfectly, but OnTrac seems to be like 95% success vs FedEx 99%, and (working with both them and Newegg now to try and resolve this) Ontrac customer service and response is utter garbage.
I was expecting delays, since I paid for signature delivery (stuff was expensive, don't want it left in the street) but, that's the usual drive to FedEx center annoyance sort of thing. Not this fake delivery rubbish.
So, watch out for Newegg for expensive stuff these days. You might get your stuff shipped with ontrac, and then you'll be stuck waiting weeks for resolution. Out of pocket, and no pc.
They sell computer goods too. Just as a recommendation. Don't have the rebates Newegg does, but after being burned for a couple hundred dollars there I no longer factor that price in.
relatedly: how much does that actually matter in terms of OS and/or game performance?
The photography store?
Yep! They also sell computer gear.
I basically don't buy from electronics from Newegg or Amazon anymore.
They’re kind of colossal assholes, but at the end of the day, they’re no worse than Amazon, so I’d still go with them. I tend to prefer Micro Center, Newegg, and Adorama (in that order) for electronics/computer hardware purchases.
Their retail location is absolutely crazy; its a willy wonka-esque everything store, with gaming rigs, pro photography stuff, drones, audio gear, components, tools, phones, tablets, mac stuff... and in the ceiling there are these conveyors snaked around everywhere that moves the stuff you order to the front where it is bagged and waiting for you to check out.
I cannot imagine this is more efficient than just pulling parts but that's what they do here.
It is also a Jewish-run business and they close midday friday and don't reopen until sunday, which is super annoying when you get paid on friday and want to buy a new toy after work.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
You may think I'm joking but I'm not. PC gaming has priced me out.
That's where we are.
Back to the bad old days pre-2000s.
I do not understand how those two options are even remotely weighing on the same scales.
Like "instead of buying this expensive block of cheese, I've decided to go with a used car."
From the perspective of "I can afford an expensive hobby, or I can put that money into the mortgage", well, maybe?
Especially if you're trying to stay at the peak of performance (whether or not that's justified).
Basically zero. It's more about the life of the drive; which I'd argue is largely non-existent for home users.
The fan lights are Pong up and down the sides with a white "clash" effect at the end. I also had to toss in my FRR (Battletech) and Oosiks patch. Sadly I need to put them on risers as well as the credit chip.
The GPU is an ASUS ROG Strix GeForce RTX 3080 V2 OC Edition that I won in a Newegg Shuffle. The only reason I have this huge case since my existing case could not fit it, so my wife said "Go big or go home". Found the Corsair 5000D on discount from Woot and the rest was history (aka, buying lighting fans, 850W Corsair PSU, and finally upgraded to 32GB of RAM). Still using my old cheap cooler I bought at Fry's eons ago since I was lazy and didn't want to put in the Noctua cooler.
Steam: betsuni7
PC hardware depreciates, and property generally appreciates. If I was in the situation where I could either buy a new GPU or put a downpayment on an apartment I would put the downpayment on the apartment and play retrogames for a couple years until either the GPU market stabilizes or society collapses (at which point GPUs are useless anyway).
They start weighing on the same scale when you think start fiddling with mortgage calculators and putting the current cost on Amazon of the video card that I wanted into a deposit instead means that mortgage would get paid off almost 5 months sooner. Call me when I can - even second hand - make a worthwhile upgrade to this 1060GTX for £250 or so.
Yeah, I ran a drive check recently and saw that my old-ass Samsung SSD is not even at a third of its supposed TBW. Which is not to say that it can't just die, but still
Man, that takes me back.
Now I'll finally be able to download MS Flight Simulator again without having to delete everything.
This is what I have sitting on my wishlist:
AMD Ryzen 5 3600
ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming 4 ATX motherboard for AMD AM4 (lol what does any of that mean)
16GB of DDR4 3600MHz RAM
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe M.2 2280 Internal SSD
I have a Radeon RX 580 which I'm not planning to replace yet, and a fairly new PSU. Other than that I'll be upgrading from an Intel i5 760 and a dying HDD.
Do any of those recommended components still look okay? If I want to get a better processor what numbers are most important in deciding which is better? - let's assume for simplicity I will be getting a Ryzen of some kind.
If you want to improve your cpu it'd be a 3800 or 5800 I think you'd want to aim for for the increased core count. Not sure a 3700 or 5700 would necessarily be worth the bump in price but I could easily be wrong there.
I would get the newer 5600 over the 3600 at least, since the mobo/ram is geared towards that one. 3600mhz is the target memory speed you want for 5xxx series, it's usually 3200mhz you need for Ryzen 3600 to keep up.
Back when you could actually buy a video card on sale or MSRP at worst. Oh you mean the fun days of the Oosiks. Yeah, those were the glory days.
Steam: betsuni7
the new architecture/DDR5 and an excuse to downsize from full tower to mid since id be ripping all the guts out anyway is tempting but may hold off at least until DDR5 prices normalize.