Having problems registering on Coin Return? Please email support@coin-return.org, and include your PA username and PIN.
w̵h̵a̸t̷ ̶i̴s̶ ̵t̶h̴i̵s̵ ̷t̴h̷a̵t̷ ̶t̵w̵i̸t̵c̸h̴e̶s̵ ̶s̵l̵i̸t̸h̶e̵r̷s̵ ̸m̶o̵v̵e̴s̸ ̴s̸o̵ ̶f̷a̸r̴ ̴b̵e̷n̵e̴a̴t̴h̸ ̴u̴s̷ ̶w̸h̴a̴t̴ ̸i̸s̶ ̸t̸h̷i̵s̵ ̵l̷i̷g̵h̴t̷ ̸i̸n̵ ̴t̶h̶e̶ ̵v̸o̴i̵d̶
Posts
A lack of senior leadership, a lack of consistency in approach from the top down, a lack of transparency. I am unhappy with the way the community has been shaped and where it has ended up; it's a big reason I decided to put my money where my mouth is and pitch in to help.
The problem with democracy is it fuckin sucks arse to try and gain consensus. I think that the shape of the place is much better for having sought that collaboration and consultation. My real issue is with most community volunteer setups; it's hard to find the hours in the day to do everything necessary.
I'm largely happy with it. A lot of it was not why I had originally envisioned, but the product is more reflective of the community at large rather than my own personal opinions, and it's all the better for it in its intended use.
on a lighter note, I definitely underestimated how hard it is for me to properly educate people on the STV system to people who have zero familiarity with it!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Oh see here I should say something safe like the UN Peacekeeping Forces but it's the Human Hive because I love industry and not taking inefficiency penalties.
I think most of the SMAX factions dilute the story but of them I think the Nautilus Pirates add the most unique new play style.
The PA forums have some problems. Some folks and some areas have been pretty insulated from it, but overall it's just not as healthy or safe a place as it was 3 years ago, and 3 years ago wasn't as good as 10 years ago, and whatnot.
The decline hasn't exactly been sudden. We've been able to see things getting worse in various ways for a while now. We just.... couldn't do anything about it.
It's tough to say if CoRe will have enough of a sustainable population to live long-term. But at the very least, there is a much better chance now that we will be able to fix and address these issues instead of just.... watching them helplessly for years. Like, we can actually make a healthy community and keep it that way! That's cool!
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
so many times I have heard from users and mods alike that they just felt like things had to be the way they were because that's just how it's always been done. I'm very excited to see this get a shake-up and to create a more virtuous circle where people are clear on how everything works, and they are given a voice in shaping it moving forward. I think when people are really invested into something, their best selves shine through and I am excited to see that
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
@spono
@Tef
@amateurhour
@ElJeffe
@Fishman
@kime
@Kelor
@Solysp
@Disco11
@Inquisitor77
@Moridin889
@Infidel
@ahava
@Fencingsax
@DrZiplock
@Richy
@Raijin Quickfoot
@Initiatefailure
Please remember to strip out batsignals if quoting this post
Here is a list of questions I have, in no specific order. I may have followups based on your answers as I resisted the urge to list all possible followups in here. Trying to make thing a bit easier. I may also have other questions adding to this list later on.
1) What specific concerns do you have (with the KDs, Core Values, transition in general, for non-exclusive example) as we open CoRe up and what specific steps will you be taking to address them?
2) Things are likely to be busy and chaotic for a while, what do you feel like your first 3 months after taking office should entail? Knowing that time is fickle with plans, what would be your outline for the rest of the year after that?
3) How have you contributed to the transition process? Whether this is being on the TT or involved in a committee helping draft or participating in public discussions or any other measure you took to participate. Would you do anything differently if given the chance?
4) How will you square posting as a Board Member versus posting a member just maeking post? Do you have any concerns about potentially being baited into misconduct or something actionable?
5) Do you see CoRe having a route of growth or is it just running out the clock? What does CoRe have working in it's favor for growing and what is working against it and what, if any, actions will you take to address these challenges?
6) There are times I have attempted to raise concerns in PA, even in the last 24 hours and also inside this very thread, and have felt blown off. How do you reach out to members like me to actually make us feel heard and like we matter as members of a community rather than obstacles to be dealt with, and how would you extend that to Members who are far more jaded and feel that loudly public blowups are the only way to get noticed about legitimate concerns?
7) I hate that I have to ask something like this, but should the government of a State pass a law that binds The Coin Return Society in such a way that directly contravenes the core values as adopted what would you do?
Ban embeds.
Twitter embeds don't work sometimes (sometimes frequently!). That means that to actually contribute to the conversation, you should be quoting/screenshotting them anyways. In which case, OK, what does the embed actually get you?
Beyond that, I find that Twitter is more and more likely to be a carrier of viruses. It may never happen, but let's be honest we won't be surprised if it does. So like, why let them run code on our browsers?
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
Your recollection is wrong, or perhaps you missed it. Minor made an announcement in the governance sticky thread, here: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/46976324/#Comment_46976324
I'm not sure if you've ever been a hiring manager, or had to hire people into an organisation in a volunteer capacity, but expecting someone to know that someone is going to have a meltdown at some point, is ridiculous. We didn't believe conducting a psychometric profile on all potential hires would be in scope, and I was not prepared to request the TT spend the thousands of dollars to do so from CoRe funds
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
1) I mentioned before, I'm pretty OK with most of the KDs/Values/etc. I think I spoke to that before already, but if you can't find that just let me know, but it's basically "they're pretty good"
2) The forums will live or die by the moderators, so first priority is getting those settled. Making sure the mods have the support/tools that they need. Helping the mods and the community with any moderation pains with being in this new place with new rules and such. Then just listening to folks to see if there are concerns with how things are going. I think we've got a potentially really good foundation, but "no plan survives contact with the enemy" and whatnot.
3) I've contributed to some of the threads here as a normal poster. Not all that much. I have really felt like the safety of the PA forums isn't great recently, and it discourages me from posting normally, but I'm really hopeful that CoRe will be different. I have chatted more with the TT and folks outside of the forums, just sharing thoughts and concerns and such. I wish I would have been able to contribute more, but the end of the year was tough for me to keep up with everything anyways, so it just was tough, timing-wise.
4) I don't expect board members to need to make Official Board Posts often. I think it will be pretty clear when that happens. Day-to-day stuff and keeping threads/users on track and whatnot are stuff that the mods have to handle, and keeping these concerns separate is definitely a big concern for them. But less for Board Members imo. If that does need to happen outside of announcements or something, then it is just important (just as with mods) that you are clear what you are contributing as a poster, and what you are contributing as part of your leadership role. Maybe the new forums have better features for that. Maybe bold is just the way to do it.
I'm not concerned about being baited into stuff really. I think I'm generally pretty controlled at not rising to bait. I don't think someone is going to "trap" me in something.
5) I sincerely hope CoRe can grow. Once we get comfortably established, I think the main things going for us will be that we are a healthy, safe place on the internet where you can form semi-permanent relationships with folks over time. The transient attention-grabbing 5-second-dopamine Internet is hopefully becoming more and more obviously not healthy, and I hope things start to transition back into folks wanting something more stable. Still fun, but also not addictive and unhealthy! And we'll be here with that
6) I think it's important to give community members a way to reach out directly to us to voice concerns (presumably by PM, but maybe there's a better/fancier way we'll like after trying things out). Then, you just have to make sure to respond. It's really important just to not let things get lost or forgotten or else folks will really feel ignored. Sometimes, like always, the answer may be "we hear you, but we aren't going to make changes at this time, but feel free to reach out in the future". But that still makes people feel more heard than just shouting into the void.
I think giving some time for that may just be enough to help really prevent loud blowups on its own, in addition to better and more consistent moderation. If not, we can circle back around to it, but I think that would help a lot.
7) We'll figure out some way to not lose our core values. Maybe we have to re-incorporate somewhere else, maybe we have to make the forums private for a period of time to comply, etc. It depends on the specifics, and we'd probably want legal help to figure out exactly how not to get in trouble. But we also can't lose who we are, or else why exist?
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
As a member of the board, building the actual working framework the gives CoRe its identity is probably going to be most important. We need to create the practical (and actionable) guidelines for how the actually act of modding works, and we need to make sure the community as a whole survives the transition as intact as possible. Community input is going to be essential moving forward, and one of our most important jobs will be seeing that through .After that, the important things are how to deal with the issues that come up, whether ensuring the admin team has enough resources to keep the actual boards running, or the modding team has enough to deal with what is going on in the forums
Honestly, I don't have any technical or organizational expertise, so I mostly trusted the teams responsible to do what they were doing
I have been on the forums long enough that I have a thick skin about most things being thrown at me. (I believe the last time I was jailed was arguing about ST unpleasantness almost a decade ago). In terms of actually posting on the site, my impression is that the board members are like any other member, and should be treated as such. If and When I am posting in an official capacity, I assume that CoRe has an ability to make that distinction, but I am presuming that would never really happen in threads people are participating in.
To be frank, the biggest thing going against it is that forums are seen as old fashioned (although I have generally heard they are making a comeback, but how large of one is questionable). We are also losing the branding we've had for literal decades, although that value isn't what it was in the heyday. I think CoRe can grow again, but it will take above all a firm and fair hand on moderation. We need the people in charge to actually be involved with being in charge and, while there has been an improvement in the last period, moving to a new platform with new rules and new mods is an opportunity to get that again.
Well first of all, if I were a member of the board I would still be available to PM or discuss things with. We are presumably going to have a subforum to discuss issues on the forums (both technical stuff for admin etc and so on)
We are getting into "I need to talk to a lawyer" territory, but whatever happens, the safety and security of the users of the forum are paramount.
I’ve done a lot of interacting with forumers and money over the years of doing Saints. I’m confident I can remain myself…which is a good or bad thing depending on who you ask.
I'm going to be honest, I don't think people view much of anything at all. I don't tend to stand out, I don't think. As a member of the board, the responsibility of the forum would be one I take very seriously, as this has been my primary social outlet for over 2 decades.
Fun! I'll respond even though ignoring these is probably better for votes
Generative AI is not bad in and of itself. It's not some fundamentally immoral thing. I hate the term "AI" btw but that ship has sailed. But "AI" art is not some soulless abomination. It could be a cool tool for folks to use to express themselves and do interesting things that they couldn't do otherwise.
Pretty much all the current big models are Bad and Unethical. Training on data without getting permission is a Bad Thing. It's really not significantly different in idea to how human artists can train and practice and research. But the scope and scale of it and then how it is then packaged as a corporate bundle for $$$$ is Bad.
What is happening in Palestine is genocide. The Israeli government is Bad for doing this, and not just for what's happened the past half-year or so. Sending weapons to help Israel do this is Bad. My personal belief is that some folks here put the blame too much on the US and the US government and often just Dems, but I think we all agree this is a horrible situation that should not be happening.
Jewish people around the world or such should not take the blame for this, which is not a common thing here but sometimes comments get a little too close to that for my comfort. Or, well, they did, I'll admit I have not kept up with that conversation here, I found it did not help my mental health and didn't seem to be getting anywhere.
I don't believe that the forums have a history of driving minority and LGBT posters away in the way that I think you are insinuating, sorry. Have some left? Yes. Have other people that are not LGBT left? Yes. Have other LGBT folks stayed on the forums? Yes. My guess based on my vague recollection of your previous posts is that we won't really agree on this one, as I suspect you are going to blame like, D&D and Jeffe and such as directly driving away LGBT folks via targeted bigotry? And I also see folks that have left due to feeling pushed away from the opposite side, so I think it's not quite as black-and-white as some folks like to imply. However! Feel free to elaborate if you'd like
But! Protecting the safety of minority posters is very important to me. It's one of the best things about PA, historically, when you compare it to other places on the Internet that are a lot worse. The forums aren't as safe as they have been in the past (I've mentioned that a few times), but they can be and they should be. I've chatted with Minor Incident and others about some of the transition stuff here that I felt wasn't inclusive enough to really help make sure we were going to be welcoming to minorities, to try and get things changed for the better (and for the most part, I think they have!).
re: "politeness" this is another thing that I think we'll disagree on, but maybe not! I prefer a polite conversation. I don't think that you (generic "you") care more about something because you are louder and more visibly angry about it. I don't think that being polite to our fellow forumers is something we should abandon. Being nice helps others feel safe and welcome. Being loud and angry stifles conversation. Just because something Bad is happening does not give you an excuse to be rude to your fellow community members. Just because something Bad is happening and I don't seem angry enough does not mean that I don't care about it just as deeply as you do.
That said. Using politeness as a shield to antagonize others is Not Okay. Moderators shouldn't be like, "well he said please and thank you, so that's not really worth an infraction." If you're breaking the rules, you should expect moderator action. If you're breaking the rules while typing in ALL CAPS you should expect it, if you're breaking the rules while typing "calmly" and academically you should expect it.
Do you have any specific concerns about the new CoRe rules that you think folks will try to get around by being polite?
I am a picky eater. Sorry not sorry. Yes, more picky than you, person who is about to chime in and say "oh I'm also picky!" So for pizza, I just do plain cheese. Also, for those of you organizing parties/get-togethers with pizza, order more cheese. You know what happens? Everyone goes up to get pizza, and they get a slice of pepperoni. Or sausage. Or whatever. And then also a slice of cheese because hey everyone likes cheese pizza. And then you know which pizza disappears first!? Cheese! And then you know how much it sucks to be the kid who only likes cheese pizza!?!?!?!?!?!?
*cough*. Sorry. Childhood trauma coming out a bit there.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I think banning twitter embeds is a good idea, especially as Elon gets more and more desperate (both for money and ideologically), he's going to either deliberately fuck with things, or things are going to be fucked due to institutional incompetence. So it's better to be safe than sorry.
I'm fine with banning them. We shouldn't be throwing that trash-pile views, the way that they work now (if you have to click out) doesn't lend to the conversation, and that's if they work at all. Screenshots or bust on this one.
Here is a list of questions I have, in no specific order. I may have followups based on your answers as I resisted the urge to list all possible followups in here. Trying to make thing a bit easier. I may also have other questions adding to this list later on.
1) What specific concerns do you have (with the KDs, Core Values, transition in general, for non-exclusive example) as we open CoRe up and what specific steps will you be taking to address them?
2) Things are likely to be busy and chaotic for a while, what do you feel like your first 3 months after taking office should entail? Knowing that time is fickle with plans, what would be your outline for the rest of the year after that?
3) How have you contributed to the transition process? Whether this is being on the TT or involved in a committee helping draft or participating in public discussions or any other measure you took to participate. Would you do anything differently if given the chance?
4) How will you square posting as a Board Member versus posting a member just maeking post? Do you have any concerns about potentially being baited into misconduct or something actionable?
5) Do you see CoRe having a route of growth or is it just running out the clock? What does CoRe have working in it's favor for growing and what is working against it and what, if any, actions will you take to address these challenges?
6) There are times I have attempted to raise concerns in PA, even in the last 24 hours and also inside this very thread, and have felt blown off. How do you reach out to members like me to actually make us feel heard and like we matter as members of a community rather than obstacles to be dealt with, and how would you extend that to Members who are far more jaded and feel that loudly public blowups are the only way to get noticed about legitimate concerns?
7) I hate that I have to ask something like this, but should the government of a State pass a law that binds The Coin Return Society in such a way that directly contravenes the core values as adopted what would you do?[/quote]
1. My primary concern is the user base. I’d like to see a smooth transition to the nuforums. I voted positive to everything that’s passed so I feel good about the move and believe we’re on the right track.
2. This is a tough question because I imagine the first three months are going to be dictated by how smooth the transition goes. If all goes well those first few months are going to be posting and enjoying the community while getting to know people from outside of the SE community and keeping an eye on what is/isn’t working
3. I did not involve myself too much in the transition other than some communication with those running it and being sure I voted in each poll as needed
4. Not at all. Having run Saints for the past…8 years? 6 years? If I had wanted to commit any misconduct I have had many opportunities. I think that most people who know me know that I have integrity.
5. I don’t think it’s running out the clock but I’m not sure there will be growth either. If it remains relatively static and we all post on there for 25 more years then I’ll consider that successful. If growth is in the future we won’t ignore an opportunity.
6. All I can say here is that I’m always available and willing to listen to any problems or concerns you may have with me or anyone else in leadership. I can’t guarantee every concern posted on the forum will definitely be responded to but I can tell you if you batsignal me I will be there and do what I can.
7. I’m not backing down from the core values. I don’t really know how this would happen or how it would but I would want to operate until we were forced to shut down and ran out of options.
1) My biggest concern is people won't put enough faith in the guardrails, the checks and balances we have established to prevent people in leadership shooting from the hip and making bad calls. I am worried they will see people they don't like in a leadership position and decide they just won't come over. That is upsetting to me
2) Finalise the remainder of the Key Decisions and make sure all leadership positions are locked in. I would then spend as much time as possible for the 3 months getting to know the leadership team on a deeper, personal level. The remainder of the year I would be looking into collaboratively developing a moderator handbook, formalising onboarding for other leadership positions, and dedicating time specifically to supporting and working in with the mods. I would also be looking to keep some time free deliberately so that we can act and respond to emergent issues as there will surely be some.
3) Would I do anything different if I had the chance? Man big question. If I know then what I know now, I'd have to say having gereg on the team, despite the positive contributions he made to the development of the KDs. If I'm being brutally honest, not supporting giving jeffe the heads up about people being pissed at the revelation that jeffe was still holding forth in the reports forum. For no other reason than it would have avoided this noise about it being a blackmail attempt.
4) Not particularly. I've been disciplined about avoiding commenting in politics threads for months now, and with the planned changes around tagging etc. It will be very easy for me to continue to not be an active participant in the few threads that could be acrimonious.
5) Someone said early on in the transition threads (an apologies for not remembering your name) that they looked forward to posting on CoRe in their nursing home. I absolutely loved that idea and have been running with it ever since. It has been sitting on my mental vision board ever since. I would love to see us expand though if it remained a core group of like, 400 posters I'm fine with that as well. In favour of it growing is there just aren't many message boards like this left. I see our point of difference being an exceptionally well planned out message board; I think we have been able to largely avoid the mental trap of, 'it's just a message board about video games bro, who cares?' and have really leant into doing this well.
6) I am optimistic that the grievance/issue resolution process will help, at least for the big ticket items. On the smaller scale, the selection, training and support of the mod team is the best answer to this question, I feel. The board does exist for escalations and I will be a willing participant in those cases, but I think it is only fair to the mods that we empower them to be an effective resource in this space.
7) I would look to re-incorporate the society and re-host the board in a place more aligned with our values
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
I honestly don't think any voters would see me in such a light. Worst case they probably see me as "generically bad D&D poster" if you have bad opinions of D&D? Turns out I'm more of a CF or G&T poster than D&D, but people don't have generically bad opinions of CF or G&T, so wouldn't get any such a label from there.
I'm probably not planning to change super much based on that. I welcome feedback from folks, privately or otherwise. Whether or not I am in a position of leadership on CoRe, if you've got a problem with me I would love to hear from you and try to do better. But I'm not really gonna change things based on imaged generically vague positions, I guess.
I do try to and self-evaluate and get better over time, as hopefully we all do. It's tough!
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
1) I would bring back the ban on all insults except "silly goose", and the ban on derogatory nicknames for public figures (not out of respect for the public figures but because they do not encourage open and respectful conversations about these figures and/or their policies).
2) My only plan is to participate in the positive management of this community, so that it can flourish.
3) I'm sorry to say I have not. I tried to donate back when we had the fundraiser, but that got blocked by my bank's fraud risk software and I didn't realize it until months later when I went looking for it in my statements.
4) I don't think board members should have any special privileges at all on the boards. We're not moderators or admins. We discuss the policies at board meetings, and we can certainly have a board thread where we explain the non-confidential discussions and decisions we take, but beyond that we should be indistinguishable from regular users.
5) I definitely want CoRe to grow. As the internet gets shittier every year, I want this place to remain an oasis of sanity and respect. The actions I will take are to setup fair rules that encourage respect and inclusivity.
6) A clear and proper way to bring concerns to the board is a must (this may go back to my Board thread from earlier, or maybe a CoRe subforum for management issues). But there will always be cases where the proper channels do not work, because the specific case is too different or the person bringing forward the complaint is facing some specially difficult circumstances. Larger institutions have ombudspersons for that, perhaps we'll need to add such a position in CoRe.
7) Move CoRe to Canada. I'm only half joking here. We can't have a free community in a non-free country, and since I'm not particularly attached to the USA because I'm not american I see moving the community elsewhere as a pretty viable option.
Generative Large Library Machine Learning that has scraped the internet for its library is just a bunch of corporate idiots trying to make a lot of money on money they wasted, and trying to avoid paying people for the work they have done. In a professional or creative setting it is unacceptable. When being used in small scale, for example for RPG tokens or whatever, my ire is somewhat dimmed, but my personal opinion is that stuff is kinda ugly as fuck and just use the actual drawn stuff you GIS.
The Palestinian genocide has been going on for a very long time, Israel is responsible, and Netanyahu is a sociopath who simply wants to keep his power and stay out of prison. The US is responsible for shielding Israel from certain consequences (due to historical trauma and situations here), but at the end of the night, it is Israel responsible for the situation.
I absolutely believe in supporting minority and LGBT posters, but I disagree that PA forums have specifically driven them away systemically. Some have left, but I think as time has gone on, the forum has improved in its dedication to protect minority and vulnerable voices.
It depends on what you mean here. If someone is truly being abusive, polite words do not change that, and it shouldn't change modding decisions. However, having a conversation about sensitive topics can sometimes cross some lines (although there are some lines we should never cross, both as people and according to our Values, such as the validity of identity), and trying to stay levelheaded and respectful of each other usual makes the conversation easier and less volatile, and thus less likely to spill over into something truly unpleasant.
I'll try anything on pizza at least once
(Above spoilered for long.)
For anyone who hasn't been following along, the basic story is this:
Moderators, in the vast majority of cases, were never stripped of their powers if they decided to step down. Moderators who were demodded because they were no longer in good standing were an exception, as were mods who specifically asked to have powers removed, generally for personal reasons. As I was neither in poor standing nor specifically requested to have my powers removed, I retained them.
It was also customary for ex-mods (which, until recently, wasn't much of a concept and definitely not a formally defined thing) to hang around the mod forum, both out of cameraderie with other mods, with whom they'd probably formed friendships, and just to chime in on various issues when a discussion arose. It was generally considered that having more voices present in a conversation was better than fewer, and so this was never an issue. Conversations sometimes took place in the main mod forum, and they sometimes took place in the special reports forum - as with any users, mods are capable of running off-topic, and it wasn't unheard for a report-generated thread to run with 40 replies that had increasingly little to do with the report or the reported user.
I was part of this system, and behaved as "retired" mods historically had since the dawn of the forums, with the complete knowledge and explicit endorsement of the admins at the time. As an ex-mod, I respected that mine was strictly an advisory role, and tried to respect this. I tried not to question any decisions made by existing mods, even if I might disagree with them, and I generally saw my role as to say my piece if I thought I had some historical knowledge or insight that others might now (especially as the crop of active D&D mods, who I very much respected, were all new).
Some people - principally in SE, a place I never really hung out - later complained that my still having a mod badge beneath my name was confusing, and it should be removed. Hahn, then admin, experimented with various things (such as just removing my badge) before ultimately settling on a new "Retired Mod" status. Currently, though I'm a retired mod, with the privileges of such, I don't have the badge, and honestly this thing has been so convoluted that I honestly don't remember the ins and outs of my avatar's whirlwind journey. Some people feel this was a concerted effort at subterfuge, thought I don't think this was Hahn's intention, and it certainly wasn't mine. I have never pretended not to have access to the mod forum, or - until recently - the reports forum. (More on that later.)
Certain mods, who can come forward if they wish, but I'm not going to name names, took issue at what they saw as "misconduct." This included responding to threads in the reports forum that were indirectly about me. This is something I tried to avoid, and when I did participate it was generally because of a larger issue that was being discussed. (Other current mods have since mentioned they have done the same.) The particular example that was circulated in the locked thread was related to a report of someone other than me, during which another mod mentioned me in the context of not understanding my intentions as regards some semi-related post I had made; I posted in there to respond to what I saw as more or less a question directed at me, and tried to tie it into the larger discussion.
Another issue brought up was that sometimes my contributions might rise to a level of "advocacy" for certain rules, positions, or groups. That is a fair complaint. I care about this place, I care about its people, I have opinions, and sometimes I apparently let these opinions move a bit beyond simple historical observation. I take responsibility for this, and I apologize. I do wish someone had brought this to my attention, because I would have been happy to course-correct. What's past is past, though, and here we are.
I feel this whole situation largely arose from a bunch of people largely trying to do their best for the community while part of a cobbled-together, wildly imperfect system. Imperfect people in an imperfect system will make imperfect choices. I like to think that every last person in this election is willing to admit that they will also wind up making imperfect decisions if they're elected. As long as they are receptive to feedback, willing to self-reflect, and pledge to do better, I have no problem with that. It's the best any of us can do. I think that going into CoRe with a very specific set of rules, roles, and expectations will be invaluable, and will prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.
And that's my piece. If you want to read more about it, there are hundreds of pages of what can charitably be called "discussion" in the locked thread, and may God have mercy on your soul. I will not be fielding any additional questions on this issue, as I don't think there's much more for me to say that has not been said a dozen times in a dozen ways. If you find any of this behavior disqualifying, I invite you to vote your conscience. If you find this explanation satisfactory, cool, I think I can help make CoRe a great place for everyone.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
For serious topics, I think a neutral topic-based title is ideal, as titles (much like headlines) often set the tone and have to do the heavy lifting of conveying the thread topic quickly. Someone might misunderstand the topic of the thread if it's too in-jokey or sarcastic. There are also historical examples of thread titles that specifically advocate for a particular perspective. Those aren't inherently wrong per se, but could lead to downstream effects (intentional or not) such as driving users away or fragmenting the discussion even further.
I'm not sure there needs to be a codified rule on this unless people feel like it's a serious problem. I would hope and trust that the mods can handle things on a case-by-case basis where appropriate, and that people are adults enough to know, particularly for very serious topics, that there will be differences of opinion and sometimes it's OK to just agree to disagree, which may include going to your respective corners/threads and leaving well enough alone.
Regarding compromise, my current day job is as a product manager. For those who don't know what that is - a major component of my job is taking input from stakeholders, clients, customers, users, leaders, developers, etc. and not only understanding that feedback, but integrating it into a broader roadmap for feature/product development (for software). I am very well-versed in putting myself in someone else's shoes, elaborating their thoughts back to them for confirmation, and then expressing the challenges and concerns more broadly that may have an input into the decision they are attempting to affect.
Compromise in and of itself is not a goal. It's a tool that can be used to achieve a goal, or a description of a result. What I often find is that good compromise is actually pretty easy to obtain once everyone is aligned on the broader issues at play. Often, if you express the problem clearly and then get everyone to agree on the actual goal, many people who originally had skin in the game decide that they actually don't care that much, or that they would rather expend their energy elsewhere. Compromise typically only happens when you have a difference in how to achieve a particular goal, in which case it's basically a negotiation of resources, timing, etc. rather than an actual desired outcome (e.g., "I want it in 2 months but operations needs budget and time so we'll make it 3 months, but I need it ahead of the sales cycle please"). My big thing is that if everyone has their eyes open and knows what's up (the pros and cons, the risks, etc.) then we have a process in place to come to a decision. At that point, we all have skin in the game and we all own the decision. My opinion, once expressed, is just one amongst a number of other inputs into that process.
-your feelings on generative ai, and protection of artists.
-your feelings on the Palestinian genocide.
-your feelings on support of minority & LGBT posters, given the PA forums history of driving such people away
-your feelings on people playing politeness politics while antagonizing other users
-your feelings on pizza toppings
To be clear, this is explicitly aimed at the Board candidates here. I know these are contentious topics, I'd rather folks who aren't in the running for the board refrain from debating or answering them. (Please, things are on fire enough for the mods already)[/quote]
I despise everything about AI and wish it didn’t existed. I would never want to see AI be used on the forums if possible and the only place I would see it being appropriate is in a thread discussing the ethics of using AI or something to that effect
“From the River to the Sea”
I personally have a zero tolerance on anything that could be construed as an attack on someone’s race, gender, or sexual orientation. There is no place for it here and I won’t abide.
Antagonizing is bullying. I’m not ok with it.
My feelings on pizza toppings are wide and varied. There are few things I won’t eat on a pizza outside of green olives.
@The Zombie Penguin
I'm an AI researcher working on Generative AI, and I am 100% in favour of the protection of artists. I find the work of Meta and OpenAI absolutely unethical, in the way they trampled on and disregarded copyrights and the rights of content creators. For my research I created a data sharing agreement with the help of my university's research office, and I meet with the owners of the content I need for my AI, explain to them what I want and what I plan to do with it, and get their signed consent to use their content.
I am in favour of diversity and inclusion on this board. I firmly believe diversity is a source of strength, and homogeneity and uniformity are weaknesses. I will strive to create a more welcoming, diverse and inclusive community.
Pineapple on pizza is delicious.
Sorry, didn't batsignal the first time. [/quote]
I’m for banning anything that would in any way positively affect Elon Musk.
That being said it’s nothing something I would give heavy opposition too. If I were the deciding vote though I would ban
video game: based on recency bias, it would be Hades
movie: Parasite
Trigger or Cross: I never played Cross, and I never played Trigger until I made a thread about it
Honestly, I think the best thing about this is the ability to select a fresh batch of mods who are excited about this journey and can be hand-selected to represent a good cross-section of our community. For the last decade, selecting a mod has basically been the existing mods being like, "Okay, who would be a good fit?" and then we come up with a list of names, contact them all, and every response is "lol no." Getting new blood excited about the experience will be a welcome change, and the knowledge that each moderator will have the explicit approval of a majority of the community will be invaluable.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
1) I'm pretty good with them at the time being. The TT has done what it can to try and think through any and all future scenarios...and done pretty well by it. That said, you can't account for everything so we have to be ready for these to be living breathing things that shift and change as this place moves to a more community driven ruleset.
2) I'd actually extend out the timeline in your question. Likely to 6-8 months. This is an already established community but there are still going to be growing pains that extend across months. A lot of that will be because change is strange and scary, some will be old grudges being carried over into the new space, some will just be because "self-governance" isn't easy. The majority isn't always right, the minority isn't always wrong. The people on the ground, the mods, are going to be deep into it. The board's first job should be making sure that they have the support that they need.
3) Honestly? Not a lick. Do differently? Probably a bit more engaged with it, but for the same reason I'm not out here trying to be a mod, time is a fickle thing.
4) I've been bumming around here since 2006 and the internet since before then. I've dealt with trolls in professional settings (both at cons and in online communities)...being bait is not something I'm particularly concerned about. We are all people behind the keyboards. Some are angrier and meaner than others. Cross a line and you don't get to play in our sandbox anymore. It's pretty simple. To the first part of the question though - Being a member of the community, at the very least a slightly active one, is critical to the board position. Can't represent the people if you're not one the people.
5) Going to push back on this one here a little. Not growing is not running out the clock. There is something perfectly serviceable in maintaining - contrary to what every public company board cries out for each fiscal year. Honestly? I think that we're going to shrink as a community right out of the gate. It's not going to be a 1:1 between here and CoRe. But will that make us a better community? A healthier one? A stronger one? Likely, yes. Now...how do we grow that? Do we even want to grow that? These are the good questions. The challenges to growth are how we're found. The Forums are attached to a rather popular webcomic so we get a bit of a natural lift from that (honestly, I'd love to a chart on our growth rate over time). We're also a group that is getting older and, in some ways, aging out of this place. That's ok too. But if it's growth that the people want, then there is some thinking to be done.
6) I think I mentioned it in another post - but I have very little time for people who insist at blowing up. The drama llamas of the world are boring and are anchors dragging the rest of people down. Now, want to have a great and constructive conversation? They hell yea, let's get into it. Let's workshop things, blow holes in things, make this place what you want to be together. It's unfortunate that we have, like yourself, folks that aren't feeling heard. An expanded mod team with everyone locked in on all of us pulling in the same direction will ideally begin to make that more of a thing of the past. We're making a bit run of these board positions, but the mods are very much the folks that are going to be dealing with this on the day-to-day so we've all gotta be aligned that even new folks, unknowns, people of different opinions, can be listened to when things are presented properly.
7) Too big of a question with too many unknown variables, sadly. React accordingly is the best I can offer, because this is a beautiful little third space and has the mandate to be a safe space on top of that.
To prove that Lord of the Flies isn't always the predestined outcome.
@Death of Rats
Twitter is a cancer, and I will maintain the ban. You excise cancer, you don't open a pipeline to make it flow into another part of the body.
I feel that retired mods can be an invaluable source of input, and I would be in favor of keeping them around, as long as their roles, permissions, and responsibilities were clearly spelled out and that this idea had the support of the community. Maybe an alternate solution would be a period of overlap, where when a mod steps down, they have the option of sticking around to help on-board their replacement for a period of six months, or something.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
I very specifically recall that, in part because of how suddenly extreme your reaction was to me. It surprised me!
I went back to doublecheck the "conversation" (it was very short). It was pretty easy to find, you used a rather.... unique insult to me.
Here's the entirety of my one post on the subject. There was nothing else before and after that I said about AI art in this conversation, and HJay left right after. If folks do find this to be too flippant and too rude and too condescending, then that's OK. Not everyone will agree with everyone else's posting styles, and maybe that's just a bridge too far and you can't handle voting for me. That's life.
But for the record, I thought I was being pretty neutral...
So, context: you said, rather aggressively, that all AI art should be banned on the server. I responded:
I'm sorry that you took this as me condescending to you, it wasn't intentional. But I do just want to be clear to other posters on what you're referring too, because I hope most won't agree this was way past the line or anything?
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
- a lot of AI is based in theft, and for the vast majority of cases, I'm against it.
- the Palestinian genocide is a genocide and I think it is despicable that so much of the so-called rules based international order is supporting it. Jewish people should also not be the victims of another genocide
- I am bisexual myself, and like to think of myself as a staunch advocate for queer rights
- we have codified rules now about attempting to bait people, and some clear values on what is and is not acceptable discourse. I think most will adapt and the community will be stronger for it, as it's a problem I have seen on both sides of the schism, and those refuse to change will be shown the door
- I will eat any pizza you put in front of me. My local place does a ham, potato, feta, basil pizza that is truly excellent.
I'm not particularly interested in the various rightists are choosing to the use the word as it's all a semantic game to them but suffice it to say, I'm probably dead against however ben Shapiro is using it.
Identity politics can be fraught when it is not intersectional enough. If you take a very superficial view on identity, it is easy to fall into a trap of thinking that say, I speak for all bisexual people but not consider that not all bisexual folks are white, cisgender, able bodied, and so on. Basically considering identity and the impact it has on politics is important, but it requires deep understanding and nuance.
Sorry, didn't batsignal the first time. [/quote]
Make it an opt-out for people that don't like it. It's not something I dwell on much
SE people will think I am slow to act on banning people. DnD people will think being slow to act on banning others is proof of rank favouritism. Other people are going to hate that I'm an unapologetic communist. As for control, board members don't actually ban people so there is little direct control there on a day to day basis, but I intend to participate with energy, focus, and good faith where I am involved around appeals etc. I won't apologise for my political beliefs, but I have taken on feedback from the community already about boorishly trying to shove it down peoples' throats.
I appreciate that I am held to a higher standard as a board member, and take that fiduciary responsibility deathly seriously. Hopefully my hard work and commitment to the transition is seen as evidence of that
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
I, too, am a member of the Heroes of the Storm is the best MOBA and it's not even close fight me you heathens Club.
I think a repeated pattern of poor behavior over a long time is just as bad, if not worse, than having it all show up at once. This is especially true for a mod. People in positions of power have a duty that compels them to act in ways above reproach, particularly when it comes to things that directly impact their responsibilities.
I would bring it up with the Community Manager and my fellow board members, and then expect that the process would play out as it should. Someone reporting to the board is a thing that we should expect to have happen regularly, including issues where moderators may have a conflict of interest.
The community to me is the people who participate in it, whether it be through active posts or, perhaps to a lesser extent, lurkers. If the people in the community are aligned to its values, healthy, and enjoy participating in it, then that's what is important to me. That's what it really boils down to.
I don't know how to answer questions about "problematic" users or things at this kind of tactical level without a concrete example. I find that speaking in generalities for issues like this, particularly at the board or executive level, is rarely useful other than as a shibboleth or way to communicate via buzzword bingo. Similarly, I'm not sure how to answer questions about how humble or introspective I am without coming off as glib. I would hope that I am a humble and introspective purpose with some modicum of self-awareness. Whether that's true is for others to decide based on my behavior. If it helps, I don't particularly care about having the position of board member other than as a means to help the community, and only decided to run when it was expressed that people wanted to run but didn't feel safe doing so. Anyone who knows me personally knows that I eschew authority unless absolutely necessary, and as a matter of personal preference I dislike being in a position to tell other people what to do, particularly through the application of "hard power". To be frank if I wasn't elected then I'd probably be more relieved than anything else - being board member to an internet discussion board is not a particularly taste morsel of power that I'm looking to add to my domain.
- Artists should be protected, AI is a shit-show for the environment, and I have used it, poorly, to get a sketch of a D&D character doing a cool thing. As someone who uses words for a living and as someone who has to protect a company's IP...jesus fuck ChatGPT can fuck all the way off.
- It's exactly that, a genocide that the world is for some reason content on letting take place and it's disgusting.
- All the support and love and I think a lot of the community driven governance of this place is going to help along with active and mindful moderation of those that would see it not be a welcoming place for BIPOC and LGBT posters.
- Nobody is fooled by that bullshit and the mods shouldn't be either.
- I prefer them to be ON the pizza instead of in them. Ban calzones.
I'm sure that if you dig through my post history back in the very beginning you can come up with something. Not sure that my first forum battle against Stale has aged with that much grace.
At the moment, I'm mostly contributing cooking and cocktail advice along with sympathy in the job threads. Later? Sanity checks for the mods (in both directions) and ideally not the need to throw together a crisis plan if something goes pear shaped.
I think I posted my post history in another thread. The how many over what years, etc. It shows a clear fade over time. Doesn't mean I'm not here reading, but I'm just posting less. I think if we're the folks holding the bag, then being aware of what is going on overall is going to be more crucial than ever. If it changes how I interact with this place? Likely not, aside from answer questions if asked and having more behind the scenes on how the mods think things are going, etc.
I'm pretty removed from forum drama at this point - so this thread has been a hell of a rollercoaster.
- AI is a tricky subject. I think that, in the abstract, AI trained on art from willing contributors is a powerful tool that can actually be of great benefit to not just artists, but creatives of all types. ChatGPT can be, if nothing else, a fun tool to play around with. Unfortunately, in the real world, generative AI has been built on theft and shitty AI chatbots have wormed their way into nigh-everything. In terms of forum policy, I strongly support banning AI in the creative forums, but support the discussion of AI - in terms of its surrounding politics, the issues and problems it raises, and the underlying technology - outside those areas. For better or worse (spoiler: it's worse), AI is in the world now, and it's not going away. I think it's important that we be able to acknowledge and discuss it.
- The Palestinian genocide is a tragedy, and I honestly have no idea what there is to be done about. I feel generally helpless, and I hate it. I wish I had something more useful to say on the matter.
- I absolutely support CoRe being a safe space for minority and LGBT posters, and I'm glad that the TT saw fit to create a DEIA role to help us navigate whatever questions and issues might arise. As a cis white dude, I don't pretend to have a perfect handle on how these issues affect said posters, and so I try to defer to people more knowledgeable than me. I also recognize that no minority group is a monolith, so on any given issue it's important to get feedback from multiple people who might have very different opinions.
- It sucks. It's unfortunately a difficult thing to moderate, because there's often a fine line between "politely saying something someone doesn't agree with" and "politely saying something that is shitty," and the people in the midst of these exchanges often aren't the best judges of when this is taking place. One of the mods' perennial favorite reports is "This person is saying something I disagree with, how dare they." It underscores the importance of having multiple mods to bounce things off of, because if two or more people with different sets of opinions can both agree that a post sucks, it probably sucks. There are always going to be people who feel that someone is getting away with murder, but I genuinely believe that if we get a crop of mods of varying backgrounds, and with varying outlooks, the community will accept that those who are being dinged for politeness politics were probably in the wrong, and those who aren't being dinged probably aren't just being protected by mod favoritism and maybe the issue was less cut and dried.
- Pepperoni and pineapple is S-tier, don't @ me.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
No major issues. I think they're fine until proven otherwise. My experience has led me to believe that rules are just words, and while they can help to obtain alignment, build trust, etc. , in many cases (the truly difficult ones) the proof is in the pudding. The application of rules at the ground level is far more important than the rules themselves, because after you get the basic stuff out of the way (e.g., "Don't say racist shit"), it is left to the actual cases where things actually matter and where things impact the real world and real people. I don't care about whether "Compassion" is an S-Rank Value or just a B-Tier Value. I care about whether or not people are actually being compassionate to each other.
We all have very long histories on these boards. I would be surprised if I haven't rubbed someone the wrong way or made a glib retort that scored internet points but was also me being kind of a dick, especially early on. I also wouldn't be surprised if people disagreed with me just out of some disagreement about politics or serious events of the day. I'd like to think I've grown up since then, but I can't guarantee that this hasn't happened recently. I have a very direct style of communication, and people often assume I hold beliefs which I don't or have a "side" that I'm rooting for just because I express thoughts with very little ambiguity. I recognize that this can be a problem, so when it comes to my personal life or social interactions I generally stay away from that kind of approach. But on an internet discussion board which I often contextualize as a place to discuss ideas, I can often slip into that mode without thinking. I'd like to think that we can still separate our everyday forumer life with our board member life, but I can also appreciate that in some cases discretion might be the better course. In general, I don't think my "regular" behavior is such that it would cause me to significantly re-examine my approach to posting and participating in general, but I'd welcome any opinions otherwise, especially if they come with examples I can reflect upon.
Regarding fiscal responsibility I can't prove much other than to say that I am incredibly financially responsible as a person. I don't have any debt. I have money saved up for retirement according to a set plan. I pay off my credit cards in full every month. I don't gamble regularly, and when I do I treat it as "entertainment money" to be spent (e.g., "I have $200 to play poker today. If I get 3 hours of entertainment but lose all my money it's worth it. If I win money by dinner time then more's the better.") I view other people's money as more valuable than my own, and would treat it accordingly. I take that responsibility very seriously.
I would still argue to ban it completely, for two reasons.
1. As you pointed out, it still connects to Twitter and loads the content, so for Twitter it still counts as a daily user, regardless of whether we actually see (or want to see) the content.
2. If some people post Twitter content in a thread and other comment on it, the other uses who have disabled Twitter will be left out of the conversation and will be pressured to enable it again to be included. Of course the intent of the people discussing a tweet isn't to pressure others to use Twitter, but that's what the indirect effect will be. And I for one don't want to encourage more Twitter usage. It also goes against my previously-stated position on inclusion.
3. People who want to post a tweet can take a screenshot and post it, so tweets relevant to an ongoing topic can still be posted and our ability to discuss topics that involve tweets is not limited.
@spono
@Tef
@amateurhour
@ElJeffe
@Fishman
@kime
@Kelor
@Solysp
@Disco11
@Inquisitor77
@Moridin889
@Infidel
@ahava
@Fencingsax
@DrZiplock
@Richy
@Raijin Quickfoot
@initiatefailure
I have one question for all the candidates, and I would appreciate a straightforward answer void of wordplay, jokes, or cutesy answers.
As directly as possible, what is a quality of yours that would make you a poor board member, and how did you reconcile with yourself that it wasn't a disqualification for serving on the Board?