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[WoW] [Raiding] is way too easy

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Posts

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    And yet at the same time, even if it uses the same ilevel for the gear, having another avenue to improve the raid group (even if it's one or two kills per week for a dozen items or less) is a faster manner of gearing up for that content than is currently available, which leads to a gradual 'nerfing' through gear improvement (some might call it "mudflation" but I'm not a silly goose like that) along with things like the growing buff.

    You know, I really wouldn't mind if, by the last week or two before Cataclysm were released, these changes had essentially nerfed ICC into the ground and made it something more akin to Karazhan/Naxx; Something tuned down to the point that just about anybody who wanted to see the whole thing could do so in a reasonably short period of time with a group of reasonable quality and some meagre level of gear.

    Yes, in part because I want to kill Arthas at least once, and I'm not entirely sure it'll happen pre 4.0, but I also argued for the same thing back pre 3.0 when I was a progression Sunwell raider who was busy knocking off Mu'ru and KJ as the timer to the End of [strike]Days[/strike] Raiding loomed over our heads.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Well there's at least 6 months or so to gear up.

    Bikkstah on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Bikkstah wrote: »
    Well there's at least 6 months or so to gear up.

    And to be clear, I do hope I get into the new guild I've app'd to, and prove myself a valuable enough member of one of their more casual 10 man crews to earn my kill(s) without too much coddling.

    I'm just thinking how popular the "easy" instances were, and the absolutely crazy achievement runs that started up around 3.0, and figure 4.0 will be more of the same.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    End wrote: »
    Well, yeah, I did say healers have to worry about immediate failure, didn't I?
    You hand-waved over it with "immediate failure" vs. "delayed failure." Ignoring the ease of failure or the sheer frequency of potential points of failure between the two roles just sort of gives off an "oh, everybody's got it tough; suck it up" vibe.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    forty wrote: »
    End wrote: »
    Well, yeah, I did say healers have to worry about immediate failure, didn't I?
    You hand-waved over it with "immediate failure" vs. "delayed failure." Ignoring the ease of failure or the sheer frequency of potential points of failure between the two roles just sort of gives off an "oh, everybody's got it tough; suck it up" vibe.

    I don't care what vibe you get. Healers fuck up badly enough and the raid wipes immediately. DPSers fuck up badly enough and the raid wipes minutes later when the boss goes big and angry.

    If you want to argue the stress is what makes it harder to heal, sure, okay, I guess can see that. But beyond that, I think when the raid falls to the effects is the prime distinction.

    (And keep in mind, healers failing will mask the evidence of dps failing.)

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    End wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    End wrote: »
    Well, yeah, I did say healers have to worry about immediate failure, didn't I?
    You hand-waved over it with "immediate failure" vs. "delayed failure." Ignoring the ease of failure or the sheer frequency of potential points of failure between the two roles just sort of gives off an "oh, everybody's got it tough; suck it up" vibe.

    I don't care what vibe you get. Healers fuck up badly enough and the raid wipes immediately. DPSers fuck up badly enough and the raid wipes minutes when the boss goes big and angry.

    If you want to argue the stress is what makes it harder to heal, sure, okay, I guess can see that. But beyond that, I think when the raid falls to the effects is the prime distinction.

    (And keep in mind, healers failing will mask the evidence of dps failing.)
    There's more than just a "time buffer to raid wipe" distinguishing the difficulty of the roles. There's both "the ease of failure or the sheer frequency of potential points of failure between the two roles." And then there's the fact that DPS can commonly fuck up in a way that just makes the healers' jobs harder without the DPS improving their game instead.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    forty wrote: »
    There's more than just a "time buffer to raid wipe" distinguishing the difficulty of the roles. There's both "the ease of failure or the sheer frequency of potential points of failure between the two roles."

    How so?
    And then there's the fact that DPS can commonly fuck up in a way that just makes the healers' jobs harder without the DPS improving their game instead.

    I suppose there's some truth to this (although, there's a few places where it's been applicable to healers, and healers fucked up in the same way, so meh).

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Like I've explained before, I can lapse in my DPS rotation for a second and it's not going to wipe the raid (not even minutes later, unless we wipe with the boss at 5,000 health, which happens essentially never). A healer can lapse for one second or make a one-second mistake and that's the ballgame.

    It's also much easier to pay attention to encounter mechanics as a DPS (even as a feral or shadow priest) than as a raid-focused healer.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    There's a few pretty big places where dps lapsing will wipe the raid quickly, although druids don't get involved in that.

    Speaking of which: WTB rogues who don't fail at interrupting.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Err, is that sarcasm? Or are you talking about effects that interrupt healing? Including having to move out of void zones and such. And yeah, those are a bitch. Knock x3 was so awful for healing. You've got everyone taking a bunch of damage, then the ground tremor starts. You need to heal people because they're about to die, but at the same time, you really can't. There are tons more fights that shit on the healers than those that shit on the DPS.

    If you're referring to needing to interrupt targets, I'd say that critical interrupts fights are very rare. There's Vezax, Jaraxxus, and ummm, that's about it? I mean it's certainly important to interrupt Deathwhisper, but it's not like it's a raid wipe if a Frostbolt or two get through. It's also pretty easy to interrupt if you're smart and use Quartz or something to put your target's cast bar right in the middle of your screen. Hell, only about half of the DPS specs even have the responsibility of interrupting since the other half have either no interrupts or just terrible/unreliable ones. Beyond that, interrupting is otherwise just another thing that's helpful but not mandatory (Deathwhisper adds) that just makes the healers' jobs harder when people don't do it.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    No, I'm talking about interrupts.

    Granted, it's not actually part of "doing damage", and it's not in every fight (closer to 10% of fights), and not every class is affected.

    (Really, it's the only obvious instance I could thnk of off the top of my head.)

    Edit: There's the spider adds on Anub'Arak too. Prot warriors are good for that, but I ended up doing interrupts on those for a long time.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    10% might even be generous. It's a minor blip in the healing challenge vs. DPS challenge factors. Hell, I've ended up in 10-man comps before where a shaman healer was being asked to help with interrupts because the raid was like half paladins and druids.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Incidentally:

    I did play a healer a long time ago, but all I remember was that it was really boring after the first kill. That probably colors my perceptions quite a bit.

    Just from from watching our healers, their reactions make it seem like fights are really hard to heal, or really boring.

    When our dps fails, it doesn't look like it's hard (and doesn't feel hard), but we'd continually see failure when enrages kick in.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    End wrote: »
    Incidentally:

    I did play a healer a long time ago, but all I remember was that it was really boring after the first kill. That probably colors my perceptions quite a bit.

    Just from from watching our healers, it seems like fights are really hard to heal, or really boring.

    When our dps fails, it doesn't look like it's hard (and doesn't feel hard), but we'd continually see failure when enrages kick in.
    I don't know which a long time ago you're referring to, but healing is far more white-knuckle now than it was in vanilla. I think it might even be worse than it was in TBC, too, but I never healed anything beyond the early shit like Kara and SSC.

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, it was Vanilla, mostly.

    I healed in TBC early on a bit, too, and I still found it boring.

    Edit: And now I play a character who can't possibly heal a group. COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • Lilac CitizenLilac Citizen Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The simple fact of the matter is that there is literally no comparison between the difficulty of ranged DPS and the difficulty of raid healing

    Ranged DPS=Make sure you aren't standing there doing nothing, make sure you're hitting the correct one of your two to six buttons
    Healing=Manage the health of twenty five idiots, each stupider than the last

    If you think that doing amazing ranged DPS is even half as challenging as healing, you are a silly

    goose

    Lilac Citizen on
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Naphtali wrote: »
    Tuesday night is MC, Wednesday night is Vael attempts- I mean, dick around and do nothing with 28 people because people aren't showing up to do Vael.

    Haha, dude, at invite time on Tuesdays, we to this day have people going "MC or BWL?" Because we used to mix it up when possible so people wouldn't be able to just show up for Loot Tuesday guaranteed. I can't believe it's still being said after years.

    riz on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Healing=Manage the health of twenty five idiots, each stupider than the last

    Hah, you just called yourself an idiot!

    ;-)

    And that's why you MT heal. Which was what I usually did.

    Edit: Although, I did raid heal sometimes, and I don't remember that being hard either, but I don't really remember having to worry about 40 people when I did raid heal either. Usually we subdivided it, maybe? Is that something that doesn't happen anymore?

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The simple fact of the matter is that there is literally no comparison between the difficulty of ranged DPS and the difficulty of raid healing

    Ranged DPS=Make sure you aren't standing there doing nothing, make sure you're hitting the correct one of your two to six buttons
    Healing=Manage the health of twenty five idiots, each stupider than the last

    If you think that doing amazing ranged DPS is even half as challenging as healing, you are a silly

    goose
    And everyone's heard of "healer burnout" or "tank burnout." But no one's every crying "DPS burnout."

    forty on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    If it's as different as it sounds like, the reasons for burning out are completely different now.

    (Edit: Although, I don't recall seeing as much healer burnout in WotLK.)

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • TheCrumblyCrackerTheCrumblyCracker Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Where is my god damn troll instance?

    TheCrumblyCracker on
  • SerpicoSerpico Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nambkab wrote: »
    riz wrote: »
    The fight is lots easier if you have someone awesome in the abom.

    Is anyone else working on Lich King right now? It's starting to remind me of the old days. We've put in several whole nights on him now (three? four maybe?) and we have finally seen the second Remorseless Winter. People whining when we don't kill a boss in an hour or two irritate me. CLEARLY YOU WEREN'T THERE FOR ARCHIMONDE. Or Kael'thas. Or Illidan. Like, fuck. This is the last boss of the expansion. Yeah it sucks that people fail at Defile but ... there's a lot of mechanics to learn, many phases, it's not supposed to be a one-shot.

    Abom pilot being awesome drastically makes putricide easier. Our abom pilot is usually doing ridiculous dps in P1-P2.

    People failing at defile is literally the fastest way to wipe on Arthas. We had a couple early attempts where the people failing at it got dropped by valks (at the time we had valk issues) and they got to listen as we actually lived deep into valk phase simply due to no bad defiles. When we killed him I was amused at how many people said, "Oh wow that wasn't nearly as bad as we made it out to be!"


    To Serpico: How did fester go last night?

    We're in europe so I was posting at 1 AM, we've not raided again since. Next time on sunday, we're probably gonna go to Rotface first then spend the rest of the night on other hardmodes (presumably wiping to Festergut for hours again) then clear the rest on tuesday before the reset.

    Serpico on
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    riz wrote: »
    Naphtali wrote: »
    Tuesday night is MC, Wednesday night is Vael attempts- I mean, dick around and do nothing with 28 people because people aren't showing up to do Vael.

    Haha, dude, at invite time on Tuesdays, we to this day have people going "MC or BWL?" Because we used to mix it up when possible so people wouldn't be able to just show up for Loot Tuesday guaranteed. I can't believe it's still being said after years.

    We are having to implement this now as we did back in Naxx/OS where we stopped doing Naxx on Weds and did Sarth + 3 instead to trick loot whores into raiding. People show up on Weds night to clear up to Arthas then don't show up Sun/Mon.

    Bikkstah on
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    riz wrote: »
    Naphtali wrote: »
    Tuesday night is MC, Wednesday night is Vael attempts- I mean, dick around and do nothing with 28 people because people aren't showing up to do Vael.

    Haha, dude, at invite time on Tuesdays, we to this day have people going "MC or BWL?" Because we used to mix it up when possible so people wouldn't be able to just show up for Loot Tuesday guaranteed. I can't believe it's still being said after years.

    :^:

    Naphtali on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Bikkstah wrote: »
    riz wrote: »
    Naphtali wrote: »
    Tuesday night is MC, Wednesday night is Vael attempts- I mean, dick around and do nothing with 28 people because people aren't showing up to do Vael.

    Haha, dude, at invite time on Tuesdays, we to this day have people going "MC or BWL?" Because we used to mix it up when possible so people wouldn't be able to just show up for Loot Tuesday guaranteed. I can't believe it's still being said after years.

    We are having to implement this now as we did back in Naxx/OS where we stopped doing Naxx on Weds and did Sarth + 3 instead to trick loot whores into raiding. People show up on Weds night to clear up to Arthas then don't show up Sun/Mon.

    I don't even understand this mind set. What the fuck are these idiots using their gear for if not to try to get the last boss down? Why even bother to do farm content when there isn't a point? It's always baffled me.

    shadowane on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I've never got the people who see gear as an accomplishment rather than a tool to help you accomplish things.

    My main guild has had to recruit someone for the first time ever recently, the nine of us all know each other and finding a replacement for our tenth has been ridden with people totally obsessed with loot so far. I've never seen a string of recruits like this who's first question they asked us was about when they would receive a certain bit a loot.

    Or even the one guy who said one of our members was obviously a bad player solely based on their gear, thinking we'd suddenly drop our friend some of us have known (and lived with) for years (and has been on every raid with us because we only had ten members prior to one person quitting) and take on their buddy because he has some ICC HM gear and is therefor obviously a perfect player and human being.

    I can't believe we've had trouble trying to recruit for one guaranteed raid spot.

    815165 on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Gear was a pretty significant accomplishment in of itself.

    My druid was hot shit with his 8piece tier 2! ;-)

    Gear is more of a prerequisite now (and not a terribly hard one), but I'd say legendaries are still as much an accomplishment as they are a tool. :)

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I didn't say it wasn't an accomplishment but what the fuck is the point to getting it then not showing up? How do you not realize you are fucking dbag for doing that?

    shadowane on
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Because you've got all the gear you need, man!

    Bikkstah on
  • BiffoniacusBiffoniacus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Why show up for progression nights when you can let the rest of the guild wipe all night on a boss, then finally get him down, then you show up next week for that boss and get carried! People like that want the guild to progress, but they don't want to help do it. They just want to get carried through everything that's on farm, to be there when the Loot Piñata explodes. That's why people who show up on progression nights get first dibs on farm content night the following week, and if you didn't have a good excuse for why you weren't there for progression, the guild may as well give your spot to a pug on farm night. Plus it helps to give just as much dkp on progression night regardless of what was killed as what's given out on farm night.

    Biffoniacus on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    gear helps me accomplish looking awesome. despite blizzard's best efforts with some of these set/weapon graphics.

    Jars on
  • ArkasArkas Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Meanwhile, my guild suddenly has the mentality of 'We're extending raid lockouts until Arthas dies RAAAUGH.'

    And this makes me a sad loot-whoring panda.

    In my defense, I play 3 specs actively. So 2/3 of the time (Arthas fight included) I'm in pretty much full ToC gear. Upgrades kill bosses easier come oooon.

    Arkas on
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    My guild is trying to extend raiding to 7 days a week to get sindrigosa down in 25, and arthas down in 10. I said no way. There are a couple of other things adding to my frustration level as well.

    Jars on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2010
    I can barely tolerate three days when I was in college with no job.

    When I had a 9-5 job, it was even worse.

    There's no rush to kill this shit. Why spend so much time only to end up beating the place five months before Cataclysm is out? Good work, your reward for being so quick is unsubbing or months of boredom.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Extending with just Arthas up is a terrible idea. More loot = easier/quicker clearing of stuff which = more loot and eventually, an easier time at Arthas.

    Bikkstah on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The only reason I could see anyone extending at this point in time is to get a first kill on their server. If you're not in the running for that, then extending is dumb.

    Opty on
  • BiffoniacusBiffoniacus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Extending means fewer frost badges, fewer set bonuses for t10, etc. Every boss gives 2 badges, plus the new weekly. I can get 50 badges per week between 10m and 25m with what we have on farm. Just doing a heroic every day and the random weekly is another 19 per week. Guilds that had all the bosses down every week until Arthas unlocked, who did their heroic every day and the weekly, will have a full raid in 4/5 t10 and the exalted ring. A guild which didn't have every boss down every week and is now extending their lockouts probably won't have anyone at all in 4/5, they'll be lucky to be in 2/5 and some people will probably have bought a trinket/cloak/belt/saronites/etc. instead of tier pieces. From what I've seen, t10 ROCKS, it's better itemized than any other wrath tier, and the set bonuses for both my characters' sets are just amazing. You can't down the Lich King without people wearing this quality of gear, so extending the raid lockouts is only guaranteeing week after week of failure, whereas farming the bosses you can already kill will be progress toward getting the gear your raid needs to succeed.

    Biffoniacus on
  • MrIamMeMrIamMe Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Unless you are a DK tank.

    Then your T10 sucks compared to the bonus armour kit.

    MrIamMe on
  • BikkstahBikkstah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The bonuses are what counts.

    Bikkstah on
  • aunsophaunsoph Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Bikkstah wrote: »
    The bonuses are what counts.

    Still not worth it.

    aunsoph on
This discussion has been closed.