Guys, this may have been touched on, but I just realized something. Changes really does change so much.
Even the title of the book.
Every other book title has had perfect symmetry:
Small Favor
Dead Beat
Turn Coat
Fool Moon
Changes doesn't. I noticed this when I putting all my books on the shelf. Well, actually, I guess I'm wrong. White Knight and Summer Knight obviously don't but the others do.
You just blew my mind. I had to check my collection too. Do we know what the next book is going to be called? I know there is a short story collection coming out, but that is not the next book book right?
Also I'm beginning to find Marcone less and less believable as time goes by.
Do 'splain.
I see Marcone as much like an Ancient King. They might have been mortal, but were still forces to contend with the magical realms.
The thing that bugs me about Marcone is (spoilers up to the last book I guess)
we're constantly told how he's such a ruthless scumbag, and the only reason Dresden hasn't gotten rid of him is because Harry's got bigger fish to fry, but aside from the first couple books we never really see him live up to his reputation. If anything, he becomes nicer in later books as we learn about stuff like the girl in the hospital. At this point, the only reason he's a villain is because Dresden tells us he is every time he shows up.
I really want to see him move forward, either by starting to become an actual good guy, or doing something to firmly establish that, yes, he's one of the bad guys. I was hoping it would happen in Small Favor when it looked like he was going to be an important part of that book, but he ended up being nothing more than a MacGuffin with barely any dialogue.
Also I'm beginning to find Marcone less and less believable as time goes by.
Do 'splain.
I see Marcone as much like an Ancient King. They might have been mortal, but were still forces to contend with the magical realms.
The thing that bugs me about Marcone is (spoilers up to the last book I guess)
we're constantly told how he's such a ruthless scumbag, and the only reason Dresden hasn't gotten rid of him is because Harry's got bigger fish to fry, but aside from the first couple books we never really see him live up to his reputation. If anything, he becomes nicer in later books as we learn about stuff like the girl in the hospital. At this point, the only reason he's a villain is because Dresden tells us he is every time he shows up.
I really want to see him move forward, either by starting to become an actual good guy, or doing something to firmly establish that, yes, he's one of the bad guys. I was hoping it would happen in Small Favor when it looked like he was going to be an important part of that book, but he ended up being nothing more than a MacGuffin with barely any dialogue.
Sometimes I feel like the entire point of Marcone's existence and Harry's reaction to him is for Marcone to eventually be skeeved out by something Harry does or plans to do.
I think Butcher likes Marcone as a totally normal human guy who can still be a bad-ass in a world of gods and wizards. I also think that he's having trouble figuring out what to do with him, now that the super-powered stakes have gotten so high and I think that's why he's had him do some silly things.
I wonder sometimes too if he was trying to play off of the "whelp it's Chicago, better have a gangster" thing too but then I want to give him more credit than that.
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
Guys, this may have been touched on, but I just realized something. Changes really does change so much.
Even the title of the book.
Every other book title has had perfect symmetry:
Small Favor
Dead Beat
Turn Coat
Fool Moon
Changes doesn't. I noticed this when I putting all my books on the shelf. Well, actually, I guess I'm wrong. White Knight and Summer Knight obviously don't but the others do.
You just blew my mind. I had to check my collection too. Do we know what the next book is going to be called? I know there is a short story collection coming out, but that is not the next book book right?
This is how conspiracy theories start. Someone notices a pattern that isn't there, and shares it with others, who themselves cannot unsee it.
I think Butcher likes Marcone as a totally normal human guy who can still be a bad-ass in a world of gods and wizards. I also think that he's having trouble figuring out what to do with him, now that the super-powered stakes have gotten so high and I think that's why he's had him do some silly things.
I wonder sometimes too if he was trying to play off of the "whelp it's Chicago, better have a gangster" thing too but then I want to give him more credit than that.
As I was listening to Small Favor, drifting off to sleep, I thought
"Man, what if Marcone became the next Knight of the Cross?"
Guys, this may have been touched on, but I just realized something. Changes really does change so much.
Even the title of the book.
Every other book title has had perfect symmetry:
Small Favor
Dead Beat
Turn Coat
Fool Moon
Changes doesn't. I noticed this when I putting all my books on the shelf. Well, actually, I guess I'm wrong. White Knight and Summer Knight obviously don't but the others do.
You just blew my mind. I had to check my collection too. Do we know what the next book is going to be called? I know there is a short story collection coming out, but that is not the next book book right?
This is how conspiracy theories start. Someone notices a pattern that isn't there, and shares it with others, who themselves cannot unsee it.
11 books is a little much for a lucky coincidence. I am assuming it probably has no basis and is just something Butcher likes to do, but wasn't able to apply to Changes. Especially since next book is Ghost Story.
risumon on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Viscount Islands[INSERT SoKo HERE]...it was the summer of my lifeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
It's not even Marcone being an extreme badass, I don't mind that. It's the whole setting him up to be a really good guy at heart thing that's irritating. Especially considering how Dresden and Murphy react to him all the time like he's the worst person ever, when in the books we aren't ever even really shown anything that he does that bad. And I mean considering Murphy slept with
Kincaid
of all people and doesn't even seem to give his horrible deeds a second though.
The whole thing with
Helen's daughter
was just ugh.
Viscount Islands on
I want to do with you
What spring does with the cherry trees.
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I don't think that he's trying to turn Marcone into a good guy. I think it's more along the lines of showing that just about nothing should be seen in terms of Black and White, that there's will always be shades of grey, if you look hard enough.
Marcone is still a largely evil man, if only evil by necessity of what he does. However, he's still human and has aspects of himself that don't fit the mold, and we slowly come to see these things. That's good characterization, if I might say so
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Viscount Islands[INSERT SoKo HERE]...it was the summer of my lifeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
It was way too heavy handed, particularly in White Night which is the last one I've read so far.
Viscount Islands on
I want to do with you
What spring does with the cherry trees.
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
I think it's more along the lines of showing that just about nothing should be seen in terms of Black and White, that there's will always be shades of grey, if you look hard enough.
on this note, I should mention: even the fey fit in here. none of them are ever expressly good or evil, though it would be easy to project those values onto them. Neither good, nor evil. They just Are.
I'd be happy if he put Marcone away for a while. I mean, I get it, he has connections and knows about magic and He and Harry are too big fit comfortably in the same city together. He just shows up too much for my liking. I like the character, not the overexposure.
However, I think he fit nicely into Changes. Harry went to ALL of his contacts. Spoilering to be safe.
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Dyshow am I even using this gunRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Because of this thread I went out, bought the first book, and read it that afternoon.
I'm gonna be making future trips to the bookstore.
If Marcone became the next knight of the cross, that would be awesome. Especially since Butcher comments frequently on how well Marcone knows how to handle....a blade.
If Marcone became the next knight of the cross, that would be awesome. Especially since Butcher comments frequently on how well Marcone knows how to handle....a blade.
I think Marcone is essentially good, which seems to be the only real requirement outside of that other thing. I mean, yeah, he is a calculating and brutally efficient crime lord, but Sonya(?)
has far more crimes to his name and God still took him. Plus, Marcone seems to be growing a heart. I can't believe someone as smart as him overlooked the Demeter connection. Not to mention his apparent faith.
Of course, it'll never happen, but it would be the coolest thing.
The scene where he beats Sanduriel to a pulp with the bat is so over the top. What bugs me more is Sanya and Michael just laughing about it on the way home, that seemed like a fine line considering just a few pages before Michael is going on and on about how the Knights are there to save the Denarians and the Knights cannot bloody their hands as Sanduriel gave up his coin freely. Just a little hypocritical - which sucks cause I love me some Michael.
Well, Michael is under some heavy restrictions. He is basically a paladin, bound by certain limitations and moral guidelines that require he hold back under certain stipulations, even if a known villain is only following certain stipulations out of technicality.
These restrictions do not require that he stop other people from crossing some of those boundaries, however, which is why I think he didn't stop Harry from being the living shit out of the guy.
Besides, the dude Harry beat down was literally a monster. They all knew that, the first chance he got, he'd more than likely be working at Nicodemus' side again, and would kill any of them without a moment's hesitation. So, even for Michael, there was no genuine sympathy.
I think that was a case where Harry did what a lot of people wish they had the nerve to do, but probably wouldn't ever willingly do if they really had the chance.
Also, this really came back to bite him in the ass. So it's not like there wasn't any consequence. It also could be why Michael never showed up when Harry hoped/"prayed" he would.
EDIT: Whoops.jpg - Goatmon, don't read that spoiler until you've read Dead Beat.
But Harry's prayer was answered, nigh-immediately, by Butters and Mouse.
Just because they aren't who he prayed for doesn't mean it went unanswered.
Broke down and bought Changes. Been reading it on and off today, but now it's really getting interesting and I suspect I'll be up to the wee hours finishing it up. Concerning my suspicions on the ending (huge spoilers here don't read this unless you're well over halfway done with the book)
Starting to wonder if we'll have a new protagonist for the next book. It is called the Dresden files. Not the Harry Dresden files. I'm seeing Harry either dieing off or if, thanks to his now being the Winter Knight, he'll be written to the sidelines thanks to his lack of real freedom.
I could see a time skip or something along those lines. It would be a bit awkward though, because if Harry's daughter were to become the protagonist, the books would become both sci-fi and fantasy. Thinking about it that way, it doesn't seem likely. But whatever, I'll find out later tonight.
What the hell Butcher? That's just a mean way to end a book.
"changes" ending spoilers
I know right? I had accidentally read a spoiler saying he dies but I didn't know how. I keep reading through all these climactic battles and Dresden survives. Then BOOM! Dead right before he was about to get his game on. What a way to go.
What the hell Butcher? That's just a mean way to end a book.
"changes" ending spoilers
I know right? I had accidentally read a spoiler saying he dies but I didn't know how. I keep reading through all these climactic battles and Dresden survives. Then BOOM! Dead right before he was about to get his game on. What a way to go.
I'm not sure he's dead in the permanent sense. It's sort of ambiguous. It's a safe bet that he is indeed dead, but the fact that there was issues walking into the light may indicate he's not out for the count.
What the hell Butcher? That's just a mean way to end a book.
"changes" ending spoilers
I know right? I had accidentally read a spoiler saying he dies but I didn't know how. I keep reading through all these climactic battles and Dresden survives. Then BOOM! Dead right before he was about to get his game on. What a way to go.
I'm not sure he's dead in the permanent sense. It's sort of ambiguous. It's a safe bet that he is indeed dead, but the fact that there was issues walking into the light may indicate he's not out for the count.
It's been mentioned already but there's a collection of short stories coming out in October called Side Jobs that's got a novella in it that happens after Changes; stands to reason we'll get some answers in there.
So, I snagged the first 3 books as a boxset last year, but due to a number of things, never got around to reading them until the beginning of June. In the ensuing 4-5 weeks, I've read all 12 books. (what? I had time to kill and they're easy/fun reading material)
Can't wait for Side Jobs and Ghost Story. I think I might snag the two RPG books as well, as they sound like they'd make entertaining reading even if I never set up a game.
Changes fucked me up. The title is just so fitting; everything we knew about the character (and had been hammered into us with nigh-cut and paste action at times) is touched upon.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
My brother started reading Storm Front, got maybe 1/3 of the way through the book and then said "It was boring" and went back to rereading Harry Potter for the 4th time
My brother started reading Storm Front, got maybe 1/3 of the way through the book and then said "It was boring" and went back to rereading Harry Potter for the 4th time
what? I take it your brother is younger? And dislikes noir style or mystery novels? And also is terrible?
He's 19. I don't know what his deal is. He just finished Bram Stoker's Dracula so he should be able to read this. I think the Noir style threw him off but I know there's a lot of things in the series he'd really enjoy if he'd just finish the first book.
Finished 'Changes' after re-reading every other book over the last few months. I'm glad to see that Butcher literally pounded the shit out of the storyline and cleaned up a lot of leftover garbage while making major changes throughout the universe.
He's 19. I don't know what his deal is. He just finished Bram Stoker's Dracula so he should be able to read this. I think the Noir style threw him off but I know there's a lot of things in the series he'd really enjoy if he'd just finish the first book.
I feel your pain, I feel the same way about my wife. She loved the early Anita Blake books, I thought she'd take right to Dresden, but so far no luck. She's read the first and second books and is still ambivalent. I'm starting to suspect that the problem is that Dresden is a man, not a strong empowered woman :x
He's 19. I don't know what his deal is. He just finished Bram Stoker's Dracula so he should be able to read this. I think the Noir style threw him off but I know there's a lot of things in the series he'd really enjoy if he'd just finish the first book.
I feel your pain, I feel the same way about my wife. She loved the early Anita Blake books, I thought she'd take right to Dresden, but so far no luck. She's read the first and second books and is still ambivalent. I'm starting to suspect that the problem is that Dresden is a man, not a strong empowered woman :x
This was my the problem my mom had with it really.
Oh man jim butcher. I have storm front lying around somewhere but I'm still getting through name of the wind right now so that will have to wait. Codex Alera was pretty cool imo though, the little world he made was pretty interesting
He's 19. I don't know what his deal is. He just finished Bram Stoker's Dracula so he should be able to read this. I think the Noir style threw him off but I know there's a lot of things in the series he'd really enjoy if he'd just finish the first book.
I feel your pain, I feel the same way about my wife. She loved the early Anita Blake books, I thought she'd take right to Dresden, but so far no luck. She's read the first and second books and is still ambivalent. I'm starting to suspect that the problem is that Dresden is a man, not a strong empowered woman :x
This was my the problem my mom had with it really.
But you said she likes Twilight.
Viscount Islands on
I want to do with you
What spring does with the cherry trees.
He's 19. I don't know what his deal is. He just finished Bram Stoker's Dracula so he should be able to read this. I think the Noir style threw him off but I know there's a lot of things in the series he'd really enjoy if he'd just finish the first book.
Just have him try Fool Moon, it picks up the pace much better.
Also, it helps a lot to understand that the first book starts out really slow, compared to the following novels.
Anyhooo.... I was poking around YouTube for Dresden FIles clips, and I Found this.
I'm kind of surprised they expected a talking skull without any expressiveness (which was all about the eyes), or a sense of humor (Which is prety much what sold Bob as a character to begin with), to work at all.
Posts
You just blew my mind. I had to check my collection too. Do we know what the next book is going to be called? I know there is a short story collection coming out, but that is not the next book book right?
The thing that bugs me about Marcone is (spoilers up to the last book I guess)
I really want to see him move forward, either by starting to become an actual good guy, or doing something to firmly establish that, yes, he's one of the bad guys. I was hoping it would happen in Small Favor when it looked like he was going to be an important part of that book, but he ended up being nothing more than a MacGuffin with barely any dialogue.
Sometimes I feel like the entire point of Marcone's existence and Harry's reaction to him is for Marcone to eventually be skeeved out by something Harry does or plans to do.
I wonder sometimes too if he was trying to play off of the "whelp it's Chicago, better have a gangster" thing too but then I want to give him more credit than that.
This is how conspiracy theories start. Someone notices a pattern that isn't there, and shares it with others, who themselves cannot unsee it.
As I was listening to Small Favor, drifting off to sleep, I thought
Then I thought "That would be ridiculous."
"And so fucking cool."
11 books is a little much for a lucky coincidence. I am assuming it probably has no basis and is just something Butcher likes to do, but wasn't able to apply to Changes. Especially since next book is Ghost Story.
The whole thing with
What spring does with the cherry trees.
Marcone is still a largely evil man, if only evil by necessity of what he does. However, he's still human and has aspects of himself that don't fit the mold, and we slowly come to see these things. That's good characterization, if I might say so
What spring does with the cherry trees.
on this note, I should mention: even the fey fit in here. none of them are ever expressly good or evil, though it would be easy to project those values onto them. Neither good, nor evil. They just Are.
I'm gonna be making future trips to the bookstore.
I think Marcone is essentially good, which seems to be the only real requirement outside of that other thing. I mean, yeah, he is a calculating and brutally efficient crime lord, but Sonya(?)
Of course, it'll never happen, but it would be the coolest thing.
Just because they aren't who he prayed for doesn't mean it went unanswered.
I could see a time skip or something along those lines. It would be a bit awkward though, because if Harry's daughter were to become the protagonist, the books would become both sci-fi and fantasy. Thinking about it that way, it doesn't seem likely. But whatever, I'll find out later tonight.
Holy wow, what an ending.
"changes" ending spoilers
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Turn Coat:
edit: maybe that was premature. I've got my eye on you, Butcher.
Dialogue spoiler:
I
So, I snagged the first 3 books as a boxset last year, but due to a number of things, never got around to reading them until the beginning of June. In the ensuing 4-5 weeks, I've read all 12 books. (what? I had time to kill and they're easy/fun reading material)
Can't wait for Side Jobs and Ghost Story. I think I might snag the two RPG books as well, as they sound like they'd make entertaining reading even if I never set up a game.
Changes fucked me up. The title is just so fitting; everything we knew about the character (and had been hammered into us with nigh-cut and paste action at times) is touched upon.
what? I take it your brother is younger? And dislikes noir style or mystery novels? And also is terrible?
She prefers twilight.
The Agnostic Champion of God.
Read it all on Sunday.
Fuuuuucking hell, did shit ever get real.
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
I feel your pain, I feel the same way about my wife. She loved the early Anita Blake books, I thought she'd take right to Dresden, but so far no luck. She's read the first and second books and is still ambivalent. I'm starting to suspect that the problem is that Dresden is a man, not a strong empowered woman :x
This was my the problem my mom had with it really.
this is a great idea
Hey, I have a blog! (Actually being updated again!)
3DS: 0860-3240-2604
But you said she likes Twilight.
What spring does with the cherry trees.
Just have him try Fool Moon, it picks up the pace much better.
Also, it helps a lot to understand that the first book starts out really slow, compared to the following novels.
Anyhooo.... I was poking around YouTube for Dresden FIles clips, and I Found this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzb4pDCmA28
I'm kind of surprised they expected a talking skull without any expressiveness (which was all about the eyes), or a sense of humor (Which is prety much what sold Bob as a character to begin with), to work at all.
Dammit, Sci-Fi.