it's like rollover minutes. it sounds like it should matter, but when you actually think about it, it is completely pointless (in the case of roll over minutes, people tend to use about the same number of minutes per month, meaning that if you are accruing a larger amount of rollover minutes, all it really means is that you are paying for too many minutes.)
Although that bars thing is really annoying. If 3 bars means "actually really weak signal" then it changes how I would use the phone - for example I'd stay still when trying to make a call, since coverage is spotty and I don't know what will cut it off.
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
i do not know anyone that doesn't think one bar is significantly worse than five
it's also not a false issue: the misrepresentation of the bars made people think they were losing much more signal through attenuation than was actually occurring, as the dB range of the fifth bar was much bigger than the other four bars. not only this, but the bottom has increased by 8 dB, 1/3 of the maximum attenuation one gets on the iphone 4.
that all leads not only to less hysteria, but actively helps fix the issue of losing reception. not sure how it's a distraction if it helps fix the problem.
edit: the iphone 4 also gets significantly better data rates etc. with lower bars. people that don't worry about having max bars will be just fine with the iphone 4.
No that doesn't really excuse the fact that it should not be possible to short the antenna by holding the phone a particular way.
This is a thing which should not be possible by design. It is still a major flaw if I go from weak to none because of a defect in the product, rather then an adverse operating environment.
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
it is a thing possible by the industry standard design of the phone. one found on many other phones.
where the iphone 4 might lose connection if you have 1 bar, it is only if you hold that spot. if you don't, it will get better reception in more places than any other phone. whereas other phones are still affected by this but have weaker reception overall.
it is a thing possible by the industry standard design of the phone. one found on many other phones.
where the iphone 4 might lose connection if you have 1 bar, it is only if you hold that spot. if you don't, it will get better reception in more places than any other phone. whereas other phones are still affected by this but have weaker reception overall.
Wait...other smartphones have external antennas that can be shorted by touching them?
I'm just curious, my experience with smartphones is pretty limited.
it's like rollover minutes. it sounds like it should matter, but when you actually think about it, it is completely pointless (in the case of roll over minutes, people tend to use about the same number of minutes per month, meaning that if you are accruing a larger amount of rollover minutes, all it really means is that you are paying for too many minutes.)
Actually they're great if your usage fluctuates. Which ours does. Sure, maybe most people tend to use the same number of minutes, but we often have months where we'll go like 200+ minutes over. But then many other months where we're 100+ under.
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
other smartphones experience similar levels of attenuation by holding that same part of the phone. when you say short, what do you mean specifically. 'cause it's not instant.
other smartphones experience similar levels of attenuation by holding that same part of the phone. when you say short, what do you mean specifically. 'cause it's not instant.
I mean do they experience attenuation because of the unavoidable path loss involved when held by a hand (or otherwise enveloped near the source), or do they lose signal because they have an exposed-antenna design and the antenna is shorted when held?
EDIT: What I'm getting at, in case you aren't seeing it, is that as an engineer I can tell you that this exposed-antenna design, where it's easily coupled when held (or touched) like that, is a terrible design choice. I'd like to think that an "engineering driven company" would realize this. Like, I have only a basic education in radio/wireless theory, but I could pretty much instantly spot this as a potential problem. And defending it by "olol all phones have attenuation" is a load of shit.
Also, the difference between "olol normal attenuation" and this antenna bridging problem is that the former is, as you point out, expected. And, more or less, uniform. I can expect similar attenuation when I grasp any phone the same way and hold it to my ear, because it's all about the path loss. But with this design flaw, somebody who holds their phone slightly different than the next person can see a dramatic difference in performance...and not realize why.
Now, obviously that's been largely addressed now, since everybody and their baby cousin knows why. But if the media hadn't jumped on it, it would have remained a mystery to many, many users. And rather than identify and fix the flaw (possible, with a little more engineering...you know, "engineering driven company" and all) or at least address it in the manual ("touching in this spot while operational may degrade performance"), they just...sent it out.
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
you still didn't say what you meant by shorted. bridging the gap does not immediately kill your signal, and it won't if you are above a certain dB amount
you say that bridging the gap shorts the antenna out, which, to me, sounds like an immediate, complete loss of signal. it's also not dramatic unless you had really bad reception before anyway, and is actually rather uniform when compared to other phones.
If you are in an area with an iffy signal, merely touching that spot with one finger is enough to kill your reception because you are shorting out the antenna with the conductivity of your skin.
This is simply not a problem on any other modern smartphone, because no one puts the antenna out in the open where you can physically contact it with your skin. It is kind of silly for Apple to parade out a list of competing phones and point out that it's possible to attenuate their signals by trying to cover as much of each phone as possible with your hand, because that's not the real problem. The real problem is that the iPhone 4 antenna can be shorted out with a single finger because it is completely exposed.
Just to illustrate what I mean with my own example, I'm on Sprint and I live in an area where I get an iffy signal (2, maybe 3 bars). I've got one of these:
If I clutch it real tight towards the top and try to cover as much of the phone as possible, I can attenuate the signal like Apple did with the Blackberry, Droid Eris, etc. Not enough to lose service completely, but I can see the bars drop and the dB loss in the phone's settings menu. However, there is no single spot anywhere on the phone that I can touch with just one finger to cause signal loss (nor does holding the phone like normal cause any signal loss), because the antenna is covered by the phone's casing so I can't short it with my skin.
So that is what mcdermott means when he says this problem is different from regular-old attenuation, which is what Apple tried to portray it as.
you still didn't say what you meant by shorted. bridging the gap does not immediately kill your signal, and it won't if you are above a certain dB amount
you say that bridging the gap shorts the antenna out, which, to me, sounds like an immediate, complete loss of signal. it's also not dramatic unless you had really bad reception before anyway, and is actually rather uniform when compared to other phones.
I may have misused "short" there, because it's not a "true" short circuit, it's just a drastic change in impedance. But functionally, it's a short. And no, it doesn't cause a complete loss of signal. And when I talk about "dramatic" I'm not talking about the effect on the phone (which will vary based on the initial signal level), I'm talking about the actual signal drop (in dB).
And you talk about "uniform" when compared to other phones, which shows that you have no fucking idea what I'm talking about. I'm saying that if Joe holds his iPhone one way, he'll never have an issue...but if Jay holds it another way, suddenly he will have issues. And when Jay asks Joe if he's having issues, Joe will say no...so Jay has no fucking idea that he's touching the Magic Death Button(TM) that kills his signal. Different users wind up with wildly varying results even in the same coverage area based on incredibly slight variations in use...that's...well...that's bad. EDIT: The awesome part is that even if Joe hands Jay his phone, it'll work just fine for Jay...awesome!
It's just another pisspoor engineering choice by Apple, and something that any third-year electrical engineering student could have predicted. Honestly, I'm generally impressed by Apple's engineering, but when they fuck up they often manage to fuck up hard. And they will pretty much never admit to having fucked up.
But don't worry, man. Steve says it's fine, and that it's normal, so it's fine and normal.
you still didn't say what you meant by shorted. bridging the gap does not immediately kill your signal, and it won't if you are above a certain dB amount
you say that bridging the gap shorts the antenna out, which, to me, sounds like an immediate, complete loss of signal. it's also not dramatic unless you had really bad reception before anyway, and is actually rather uniform when compared to other phones.
If you are in an area with an iffy signal, merely touching that spot with one finger is enough to kill your reception because you are shorting out the antenna with the conductivity of your skin.
This is simply not a problem on any other modern smartphone, because no one puts the antenna out in the open where you can physically contact it with your skin. It is kind of silly for Apple to parade out a list of competing phones and point out that it's possible to attenuate their signals by trying to cover as much of each phone as possible with your hand, because that's not the real problem. The real problem is that the iPhone 4 antenna can be shorted out with a single finger because it is completely exposed.
Just to illustrate what I mean with my own example, I'm on Sprint and I live in an area where I get an iffy signal (2, maybe 3 bars). I've got one of these:
If I clutch it real tight towards the top and try to cover as much of the phone as possible, I can attenuate the signal like Apple did with the Blackberry, Droid Eris, etc. Not enough to lose service completely, but I can see the bars drop and the dB loss in the phone's settings menu. However, there is no single spot anywhere on the phone that I can touch with just one finger to cause signal loss (nor does holding the phone like normal cause any signal loss), because the antenna is covered by the phone's casing so I can't short it with my skin.
So that is what mcdermott means when he says this problem is different from regular-old attenuation, which is what Apple tried to portray it as.
Except that you wont lose your signal entirely with even 2 bars on the iphone4. And causing loss in db just by touching a spot on the phone doesn't matter when it still gets a better signal than the previous version
t mcdermott: i know exactly what you're talking about. The italicized use of uniform was supposed to jokingly refer to your usage of it. Notice i also italicized dramatic. I guess dnd has trouble with this kind of stuff? Obviously other phones don't attenuate as much or as easily, but you still seem to think that just touching this spot immediately assassinates your signal. This is just not true unless you are receiving very poor reception (1 bar)
It's just another pisspoor engineering choice by Apple, and something that any third-year electrical engineering student could have predicted. Honestly, I'm generally impressed by Apple's engineering, but when they fuck up they often manage to fuck up hard. And they will pretty much never admit to having fucked up.
But don't worry, man. Steve says it's fine, and that it's normal, so it's fine and normal.
Not entirely unlike the MacBook Pro's overheating issues. Which Apple still hasn't properly addressed, despite the problem crossing several generations and models now. Unless you count "Hey, you know our laptop that gets really hot? Let's make the whole thing out of metal!" addressing the issue.
I'm eagerly awaiting Jobs' email to customers, "Just don't put it in your lap. Who does that?"
It's just another pisspoor engineering choice by Apple, and something that any third-year electrical engineering student could have predicted. Honestly, I'm generally impressed by Apple's engineering, but when they fuck up they often manage to fuck up hard. And they will pretty much never admit to having fucked up.
But don't worry, man. Steve says it's fine, and that it's normal, so it's fine and normal.
Not entirely unlike the MacBook Pro's overheating issues. Which Apple still hasn't properly addressed, despite the problem crossing several generations and models now. Unless you count "Hey, you know our laptop that gets really hot? Let's make the whole thing out of metal!" addressing the issue.
I'm eagerly awaiting Jobs' email to customers, "Just don't put it in your lap. Who does that?"
Exactly. Or my G4 PowerBook that had heat issues so bad that it warped the case. And I don't mean aesthetically, I mean "the little bit of metal above the DVD slot-loader protrudes, inhibiting normal function" warped. The entire thing rocks like grandma's chair, basically forcing you to shim it if you want to use it on a flat, hard surface.
It's like their engineering team is only capable of either "amazing" or "utter shit," with nothing inbetween.
Except that you wont lose your signal entirely with even 2 bars on the iphone4. And causing loss in db just by touching a spot on the phone doesn't matter when it still gets a better signal than the previous version
It may matter if that power is reflected into the transmitter from the impedance mismatch. Of course, that's the kind of thing that won't show up as a problem for a while, and Apple will never admit to it anyway.
t mcdermott: i know exactly what you're talking about. The italicized use of uniform was supposed to jokingly refer to your usage of it. Notice i also italicized dramatic. I guess dnd has trouble with this kind of stuff? Obviously other phones don't attenuate as much or as easily, but you still seem to think that just touching this spot immediately assassinates your signal. This is just not true unless you are receiving very poor reception (1 bar)
t nathuram: Haters. Gonna. Hate.
So their "revolutionary" antenna basically winds up getting you a marginally better signal than previous models, while possibly causing unknown issues down the road. Whereas simply putting the engineering work into avoiding this problem (for instance, by adding a conformal coating to insulate the gap, though more involved measures could also have been taken) would have avoided it altogether and probably made the iPhone 4 a hands-down improvement in performance over every other phone.
It's...it's...it's almost as if aesthetics took priority over performance. But that never happens at Apple.
"Hey, you know our laptop that gets really hot? Let's make the whole thing out of metal!" addressing the issue.
I'm eagerly awaiting Jobs' email to customers, "Just don't put it in your lap. Who does that?"
If you notice most portable computers including the macbook pros are considered notebooks and not laptops for that exact reason.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited July 2010
Everyone in the thread here bitching about engineering flaws and piss-poor performance... do any of you own the phone? Are any of you actually affected by the issue?
Meanwhile, Myself, a few of my clients, my fiance, and a wealth of other folks I know have their iPhone 4, and have not had any real-world issues with it. Anecdotal LOL, I know... but it's better than just saying it sucks when you don't even have any direct experience with it.
Almost nobody is returning them, next to nobody is trying to get them fixed (why else would you call applecare), and people who own Android devices are shitting on it... funny that.
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Exactly. Or my G4 PowerBook that had heat issues so bad that it warped the case. And I don't mean aesthetically, I mean "the little bit of metal above the DVD slot-loader protrudes, inhibiting normal function" warped. The entire thing rocks like grandma's chair, basically forcing you to shim it if you want to use it on a flat, hard surface.
I have the exact same problem with my G4 PowerBook. It even bent in the same place.
Exactly. Or my G4 PowerBook that had heat issues so bad that it warped the case. And I don't mean aesthetically, I mean "the little bit of metal above the DVD slot-loader protrudes, inhibiting normal function" warped. The entire thing rocks like grandma's chair, basically forcing you to shim it if you want to use it on a flat, hard surface.
I have the exact same problem with my G4 PowerBook. It even bent in the same place.
The awesome part is that it did it twice. Luckily I got the bottom chassis assembly replaced the first time under Applecare.
Of course, now I'm just hosed. And fixing it would cost the same as a netbook (even the part isn't cheap, assuming I want to do the repair myself), which would probably be the better purchase.
Everyone in the thread here bitching about engineering flaws and piss-poor performance... do any of you own the phone? Are any of you actually affected by the issue?
I don't need to own the phone to comment on its engineering. I didn't own a Pinto, either.
Meanwhile, Myself, a few of my clients, my fiance, and a wealth of other folks I know have their iPhone 4, and have not had any real-world issues with it. Anecdotal LOL, I know... but it's better than just saying it sucks when you don't even have any direct experience with it.
Again, as an engineer I can comment about the design decision (and the impact it has had on many users) without owning one. I'm sure as long as you stay in high-signal regions, grip it differently, or use a bumper it is a great phone. That doesn't mean they didn't make a terrible hardware design decision.
We'll also see what happens in 18 months when they start coming up with transmitter problems due to the impedance mismatch among users that don't opt for bumpers/cases.
Almost nobody is returning them, next to nobody is trying to get them fixed (why else would you call applecare), and people who own Android devices are shitting on it... funny that.
I don't own an Android device. I honestly don't care much one way or the other, and in general I'm a fan of Apple's products (having been accused of being a "fanboy" in other discussions for defending them vigorously).
The G4 PowerBook warping because of heat was pretty common knowledge, I thought. I think Mac's unofficial answer was "Get the more expensive titanium model, it'll bend less."
Not the greatest answer. That was in addition to the usual repairs, etc., of course.
The G4 PowerBook warping because of heat was pretty common knowledge, I thought. I think Mac's unofficial answer was "Get the more expensive titanium model, it'll bend less."
Not the greatest answer. That was in addition to the usual repairs, etc., of course.
This was actually post-titanium...it was one of the last aluminum G4 models before they went Intel.
And while it may have been common knowledge in the Mac community, I had no idea when I bought it...I didn't find out how common it was until after it warped, and I started doing some online searches for the specific issue.
EDIT: Would have been nice if Steve-O had offered me a refund on that, though. Like I said, nowadays I avoid all Apple products at launch, avoid any first-rev products, and spend a lot more time trolling the internet before buying anything from them. I still like the stuff that's good...like I said, when they're "on" their products are fantastic. When they're not...well, yeah.
Everyone in the thread here bitching about engineering flaws and piss-poor performance... do any of you own the phone? Are any of you actually affected by the issue?
Meanwhile, Myself, a few of my clients, my fiance, and a wealth of other folks I know have their iPhone 4, and have not had any real-world issues with it. Anecdotal LOL, I know... but it's better than just saying it sucks when you don't even have any direct experience with it.
Almost nobody is returning them, next to nobody is trying to get them fixed (why else would you call applecare), and people who own Android devices are shitting on it... funny that.
Like I said, the Internet enjoys bitching.
I've had an iPhone 4 since the week after it came out, and I've never had any problems with it.
And yet somehow I still think Android-based phones are nifty. I know, I'm a crazy person for not getting violently partisan about my cell phone choice.
Everyone in the thread here bitching about engineering flaws and piss-poor performance... do any of you own the phone? Are any of you actually affected by the issue?
Meanwhile, Myself, a few of my clients, my fiance, and a wealth of other folks I know have their iPhone 4, and have not had any real-world issues with it. Anecdotal LOL, I know... but it's better than just saying it sucks when you don't even have any direct experience with it.
Almost nobody is returning them, next to nobody is trying to get them fixed (why else would you call applecare), and people who own Android devices are shitting on it... funny that.
There's enough of an issue that Consumer Reports still isn't recommending the device.
There's enough of an issue that Apple is actually responding to it.
So yes, "Anecdotal LOL".
Consumer reports isn't a bunch of anti-Apple fanboys, and Apple wouldn't be responding at all unless there WERE enough of a concern from owners that it would be more expensive for them NOT to act.
As for the people posting in this thread, this is a thread that was made SPECIFICALLY about negative consumer reactions to apple decisions. If YOU have a problem with that, as some one who is perfectly happy with their Apple devices, then actually YOU are the one who probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Coming in here and demanding "folks should stop complaining about Apple in here" is absolutely absurd.
The G4 PowerBook warping because of heat was pretty common knowledge, I thought. I think Mac's unofficial answer was "Get the more expensive titanium model, it'll bend less."
Not the greatest answer. That was in addition to the usual repairs, etc., of course.
This was actually post-titanium...it was one of the last aluminum G4 models before they went Intel.
And while it may have been common knowledge in the Mac community, I had no idea when I bought it...I didn't find out how common it was until after it warped, and I started doing some online searches for the specific issue.
EDIT: Would have been nice if Steve-O had offered me a refund on that, though. Like I said, nowadays I avoid all Apple products at launch, avoid any first-rev products, and spend a lot more time trolling the internet before buying anything from them. I still like the stuff that's good...like I said, when they're "on" their products are fantastic. When they're not...well, yeah.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it was still something of a fuck-up. I'm speaking entirely as an observer.
Really, given the sort of wariness people express about adopting launch products from phones to consoles, I don't see why that cautious cynicism shouldn't extend to Apple. The original iPods left something to be desired too (well, when they were first made available to Windows, anyway...I can't say before that), even compared to the other early MP3 players out then. And it's not like Apple is going to be shocked they didn't sell five million ____ until the second quarters after the launch and close up shop, or even the product line.
We'll also see what happens in 18 months when they start coming up with transmitter problems due to the impedance mismatch among users that don't opt for bumpers/cases.
We'll also see what happens in 18 months when they start coming up with transmitter problems due to the impedance mismatch among users that don't opt for bumpers/cases.
the whoziwhatnow in the whabawazzle?
Exactly.
Of course, I'd be surprised if their engineers didn't have some kind of circuitry to protect the transmitter from that and prevent damage. Then again, I'd be surprised if their engineers placed the antenna externally with a gap that's easily bridged when held in a (relatively) common manner, causing the mismatch in the first place.
So...yeah.
But sure, Steve...engineering driven company, or whatever.
We'll also see what happens in 18 months when they start coming up with transmitter problems due to the impedance mismatch among users that don't opt for bumpers/cases.
the whoziwhatnow in the whabawazzle?
Exactly.
Of course, I'd be surprised if their engineers didn't have some kind of circuitry to protect the transmitter from that and prevent damage. Then again, I'd be surprised if their engineers placed the antenna externally with a gap that's easily bridged when held in a (relatively) common manner, causing the mismatch in the first place.
So...yeah.
But sure, Steve...engineering driven company, or whatever.
Which is really the heart of the matter - it wouldn't be nearly as bad if Apple would acknowledge that they make design choices that result in tradeoffs.
Which is really the heart of the matter - it wouldn't be nearly as bad if Apple would acknowledge that they make design choices that result in tradeoffs.
Or acknowledge anything with any degree of humility at all, really.
It's not that Apple wasn't able to actualize the faults in their product at the conference, it was their repeated insistence that everyone who made a fuss about it was an asshole.
It's not too unlike someone pointing out Jobs' shoelaces were untied, and then he goes off on a thirty minute rant about how other people's shoes get untied, too, and how we should all be grateful he's not wearing Velcro shoes like some idiot from Korea.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
The 3 people in my unit who acquired an iPhone 4 have all returned them for Droids.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
The 3 people in my unit who acquired an iPhone 4 have all returned them for Droids.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
If this were a thing, wouldn't it have been affecting car and television antennae for years?
The 3 people in my unit who acquired an iPhone 4 have all returned them for Droids.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
If this were a thing, wouldn't it have been affecting car and television antennae for years?
It has been. That's why they put rubber coatings on them these days.
The 3 people in my unit who acquired an iPhone 4 have all returned them for Droids.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
If this were a thing, wouldn't it have been affecting car and television antennae for years?
It has been. That's why they put rubber coatings on them these days.
Ah, well there you go.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The 3 people in my unit who acquired an iPhone 4 have all returned them for Droids.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
If this were a thing, wouldn't it have been affecting car and television antennae for years?
If you want to categorize the oxidization and wear of conductive materials which reduces their effectiveness to transfer electrons and increase impedance (thereby rendering them useless after a given period of time) a "THING", then, yes.
We'll go with "thing", then.
It's piss poor design, and I haven't seen bare metal antennae on commercial products for decades, though if you want to have fun you can always find one of the old boomboxes with the telescoping metal antennas, find a radio station that comes in crystal clear, then grab the antenna with your bare hand.
The problem that I find myself in is that I really want an iPhone 4, because it is a beautiful piece of equipment, and I am familiar with iOS, but I don't to buy a bumper for it and I don't want to risk the antenna getting more and more lame over time.
So right now I am just kind of waiting and hoping that Apple release an update where they have covered the antenna with some kind of coating.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
The iPhone 4 is an impressive piece of equipment.
Unfortunately, the phone part is potentially jacked up.
I wouldn't buy a TV where the main element (the screen) was prone to fucking up beyond normal during normal usage, i.e., the remote causes the screen to go out.
The problem that I find myself in is that I really want an iPhone 4, because it is a beautiful piece of equipment, and I am familiar with iOS, but I don't to buy a bumper for it and I don't want to risk the antenna getting more and more lame over time.
So right now I am just kind of waiting and hoping that Apple release an update where they have covered the antenna with some kind of coating.
This is like me.
Except the dude in the shop then did a really good job of selling me the HTC Desire instead.
So now I'm like 'if I don't get the iPhone never mind right?'
But I have two months to wait and see what Apple do.
Wouldn't be such a big deal back in the 12 month days, but 24 month contracts mean you have to make these choices carefully!
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it's also not a false issue: the misrepresentation of the bars made people think they were losing much more signal through attenuation than was actually occurring, as the dB range of the fifth bar was much bigger than the other four bars. not only this, but the bottom has increased by 8 dB, 1/3 of the maximum attenuation one gets on the iphone 4.
that all leads not only to less hysteria, but actively helps fix the issue of losing reception. not sure how it's a distraction if it helps fix the problem.
edit: the iphone 4 also gets significantly better data rates etc. with lower bars. people that don't worry about having max bars will be just fine with the iphone 4.
This is a thing which should not be possible by design. It is still a major flaw if I go from weak to none because of a defect in the product, rather then an adverse operating environment.
where the iphone 4 might lose connection if you have 1 bar, it is only if you hold that spot. if you don't, it will get better reception in more places than any other phone. whereas other phones are still affected by this but have weaker reception overall.
Wait...other smartphones have external antennas that can be shorted by touching them?
I'm just curious, my experience with smartphones is pretty limited.
Actually they're great if your usage fluctuates. Which ours does. Sure, maybe most people tend to use the same number of minutes, but we often have months where we'll go like 200+ minutes over. But then many other months where we're 100+ under.
I mean do they experience attenuation because of the unavoidable path loss involved when held by a hand (or otherwise enveloped near the source), or do they lose signal because they have an exposed-antenna design and the antenna is shorted when held?
EDIT: What I'm getting at, in case you aren't seeing it, is that as an engineer I can tell you that this exposed-antenna design, where it's easily coupled when held (or touched) like that, is a terrible design choice. I'd like to think that an "engineering driven company" would realize this. Like, I have only a basic education in radio/wireless theory, but I could pretty much instantly spot this as a potential problem. And defending it by "olol all phones have attenuation" is a load of shit.
Now, obviously that's been largely addressed now, since everybody and their baby cousin knows why. But if the media hadn't jumped on it, it would have remained a mystery to many, many users. And rather than identify and fix the flaw (possible, with a little more engineering...you know, "engineering driven company" and all) or at least address it in the manual ("touching in this spot while operational may degrade performance"), they just...sent it out.
you say that bridging the gap shorts the antenna out, which, to me, sounds like an immediate, complete loss of signal. it's also not dramatic unless you had really bad reception before anyway, and is actually rather uniform when compared to other phones.
http://vimeo.com/12864890
If you are in an area with an iffy signal, merely touching that spot with one finger is enough to kill your reception because you are shorting out the antenna with the conductivity of your skin.
This is simply not a problem on any other modern smartphone, because no one puts the antenna out in the open where you can physically contact it with your skin. It is kind of silly for Apple to parade out a list of competing phones and point out that it's possible to attenuate their signals by trying to cover as much of each phone as possible with your hand, because that's not the real problem. The real problem is that the iPhone 4 antenna can be shorted out with a single finger because it is completely exposed.
Just to illustrate what I mean with my own example, I'm on Sprint and I live in an area where I get an iffy signal (2, maybe 3 bars). I've got one of these:
If I clutch it real tight towards the top and try to cover as much of the phone as possible, I can attenuate the signal like Apple did with the Blackberry, Droid Eris, etc. Not enough to lose service completely, but I can see the bars drop and the dB loss in the phone's settings menu. However, there is no single spot anywhere on the phone that I can touch with just one finger to cause signal loss (nor does holding the phone like normal cause any signal loss), because the antenna is covered by the phone's casing so I can't short it with my skin.
So that is what mcdermott means when he says this problem is different from regular-old attenuation, which is what Apple tried to portray it as.
I may have misused "short" there, because it's not a "true" short circuit, it's just a drastic change in impedance. But functionally, it's a short. And no, it doesn't cause a complete loss of signal. And when I talk about "dramatic" I'm not talking about the effect on the phone (which will vary based on the initial signal level), I'm talking about the actual signal drop (in dB).
And you talk about "uniform" when compared to other phones, which shows that you have no fucking idea what I'm talking about. I'm saying that if Joe holds his iPhone one way, he'll never have an issue...but if Jay holds it another way, suddenly he will have issues. And when Jay asks Joe if he's having issues, Joe will say no...so Jay has no fucking idea that he's touching the Magic Death Button(TM) that kills his signal. Different users wind up with wildly varying results even in the same coverage area based on incredibly slight variations in use...that's...well...that's bad. EDIT: The awesome part is that even if Joe hands Jay his phone, it'll work just fine for Jay...awesome!
It's just another pisspoor engineering choice by Apple, and something that any third-year electrical engineering student could have predicted. Honestly, I'm generally impressed by Apple's engineering, but when they fuck up they often manage to fuck up hard. And they will pretty much never admit to having fucked up.
But don't worry, man. Steve says it's fine, and that it's normal, so it's fine and normal.
Be honest. You post videos on www.dearstevejobs.com don't you.
Except that you wont lose your signal entirely with even 2 bars on the iphone4. And causing loss in db just by touching a spot on the phone doesn't matter when it still gets a better signal than the previous version
t mcdermott: i know exactly what you're talking about. The italicized use of uniform was supposed to jokingly refer to your usage of it. Notice i also italicized dramatic. I guess dnd has trouble with this kind of stuff? Obviously other phones don't attenuate as much or as easily, but you still seem to think that just touching this spot immediately assassinates your signal. This is just not true unless you are receiving very poor reception (1 bar)
t nathuram: Haters. Gonna. Hate.
Not entirely unlike the MacBook Pro's overheating issues. Which Apple still hasn't properly addressed, despite the problem crossing several generations and models now. Unless you count "Hey, you know our laptop that gets really hot? Let's make the whole thing out of metal!" addressing the issue.
I'm eagerly awaiting Jobs' email to customers, "Just don't put it in your lap. Who does that?"
Exactly. Or my G4 PowerBook that had heat issues so bad that it warped the case. And I don't mean aesthetically, I mean "the little bit of metal above the DVD slot-loader protrudes, inhibiting normal function" warped. The entire thing rocks like grandma's chair, basically forcing you to shim it if you want to use it on a flat, hard surface.
It's like their engineering team is only capable of either "amazing" or "utter shit," with nothing inbetween.
It may matter if that power is reflected into the transmitter from the impedance mismatch. Of course, that's the kind of thing that won't show up as a problem for a while, and Apple will never admit to it anyway.
So their "revolutionary" antenna basically winds up getting you a marginally better signal than previous models, while possibly causing unknown issues down the road. Whereas simply putting the engineering work into avoiding this problem (for instance, by adding a conformal coating to insulate the gap, though more involved measures could also have been taken) would have avoided it altogether and probably made the iPhone 4 a hands-down improvement in performance over every other phone.
It's...it's...it's almost as if aesthetics took priority over performance. But that never happens at Apple.
If you notice most portable computers including the macbook pros are considered notebooks and not laptops for that exact reason.
Meanwhile, Myself, a few of my clients, my fiance, and a wealth of other folks I know have their iPhone 4, and have not had any real-world issues with it. Anecdotal LOL, I know... but it's better than just saying it sucks when you don't even have any direct experience with it.
Almost nobody is returning them, next to nobody is trying to get them fixed (why else would you call applecare), and people who own Android devices are shitting on it... funny that.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I have the exact same problem with my G4 PowerBook. It even bent in the same place.
The awesome part is that it did it twice. Luckily I got the bottom chassis assembly replaced the first time under Applecare.
Of course, now I'm just hosed. And fixing it would cost the same as a netbook (even the part isn't cheap, assuming I want to do the repair myself), which would probably be the better purchase.
I don't need to own the phone to comment on its engineering. I didn't own a Pinto, either.
Again, as an engineer I can comment about the design decision (and the impact it has had on many users) without owning one. I'm sure as long as you stay in high-signal regions, grip it differently, or use a bumper it is a great phone. That doesn't mean they didn't make a terrible hardware design decision.
We'll also see what happens in 18 months when they start coming up with transmitter problems due to the impedance mismatch among users that don't opt for bumpers/cases.
I don't own an Android device. I honestly don't care much one way or the other, and in general I'm a fan of Apple's products (having been accused of being a "fanboy" in other discussions for defending them vigorously).
Not the greatest answer. That was in addition to the usual repairs, etc., of course.
This was actually post-titanium...it was one of the last aluminum G4 models before they went Intel.
And while it may have been common knowledge in the Mac community, I had no idea when I bought it...I didn't find out how common it was until after it warped, and I started doing some online searches for the specific issue.
EDIT: Would have been nice if Steve-O had offered me a refund on that, though. Like I said, nowadays I avoid all Apple products at launch, avoid any first-rev products, and spend a lot more time trolling the internet before buying anything from them. I still like the stuff that's good...like I said, when they're "on" their products are fantastic. When they're not...well, yeah.
Like I said, the Internet enjoys bitching.
I've had an iPhone 4 since the week after it came out, and I've never had any problems with it.
And yet somehow I still think Android-based phones are nifty. I know, I'm a crazy person for not getting violently partisan about my cell phone choice.
It's only really "scalping" in cases where the supply is static.
There's enough of an issue that Consumer Reports still isn't recommending the device.
There's enough of an issue that Apple is actually responding to it.
So yes, "Anecdotal LOL".
Consumer reports isn't a bunch of anti-Apple fanboys, and Apple wouldn't be responding at all unless there WERE enough of a concern from owners that it would be more expensive for them NOT to act.
As for the people posting in this thread, this is a thread that was made SPECIFICALLY about negative consumer reactions to apple decisions. If YOU have a problem with that, as some one who is perfectly happy with their Apple devices, then actually YOU are the one who probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Coming in here and demanding "folks should stop complaining about Apple in here" is absolutely absurd.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it was still something of a fuck-up. I'm speaking entirely as an observer.
Really, given the sort of wariness people express about adopting launch products from phones to consoles, I don't see why that cautious cynicism shouldn't extend to Apple. The original iPods left something to be desired too (well, when they were first made available to Windows, anyway...I can't say before that), even compared to the other early MP3 players out then. And it's not like Apple is going to be shocked they didn't sell five million ____ until the second quarters after the launch and close up shop, or even the product line.
the whoziwhatnow in the whabawazzle?
Exactly.
Of course, I'd be surprised if their engineers didn't have some kind of circuitry to protect the transmitter from that and prevent damage. Then again, I'd be surprised if their engineers placed the antenna externally with a gap that's easily bridged when held in a (relatively) common manner, causing the mismatch in the first place.
So...yeah.
But sure, Steve...engineering driven company, or whatever.
Impedance!
It's a fancy set of equations for measuring the flow of current and its synchronicity with other currents.
Or acknowledge anything with any degree of humility at all, really.
It's not that Apple wasn't able to actualize the faults in their product at the conference, it was their repeated insistence that everyone who made a fuss about it was an asshole.
It's not too unlike someone pointing out Jobs' shoelaces were untied, and then he goes off on a thirty minute rant about how other people's shoes get untied, too, and how we should all be grateful he's not wearing Velcro shoes like some idiot from Korea.
I know, anecdotal. I didn't even bother picking one up. I'm waiting to see what Windows Phone 7 has to offer this holiday season and get my new phone in the spring when tax returns come in.
Needless to say, if Apple doesn't decide to admit they have an unshielded electrical component exposed to the elements, the choice is going to be Droid or WP7. Just having a human finger destroy signal is one thing, but the fact that it's pretty much exposed to the elements says to me that "normal wear and tear" is going to be significantly higher than any other smartphone on the market.
If this were a thing, wouldn't it have been affecting car and television antennae for years?
It has been. That's why they put rubber coatings on them these days.
Ah, well there you go.
If you want to categorize the oxidization and wear of conductive materials which reduces their effectiveness to transfer electrons and increase impedance (thereby rendering them useless after a given period of time) a "THING", then, yes.
We'll go with "thing", then.
It's piss poor design, and I haven't seen bare metal antennae on commercial products for decades, though if you want to have fun you can always find one of the old boomboxes with the telescoping metal antennas, find a radio station that comes in crystal clear, then grab the antenna with your bare hand.
Same thing with the iPhone.
So right now I am just kind of waiting and hoping that Apple release an update where they have covered the antenna with some kind of coating.
Unfortunately, the phone part is potentially jacked up.
I wouldn't buy a TV where the main element (the screen) was prone to fucking up beyond normal during normal usage, i.e., the remote causes the screen to go out.
This is like me.
Except the dude in the shop then did a really good job of selling me the HTC Desire instead.
So now I'm like 'if I don't get the iPhone never mind right?'
But I have two months to wait and see what Apple do.
Wouldn't be such a big deal back in the 12 month days, but 24 month contracts mean you have to make these choices carefully!