Honest question. If push came to shove, is there any reason why we should respect their "sovereignty"?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited February 2013
Probably - breaking international law to storm the Vatican (which, even if convicted, a big chunk of the world still would respect in some form) and capture a crusty old white man who didn't pose an imminent threat to anyone would be pretty tough to justify.
edit: plus, more practically speaking, I don't know if we have any sort of diplomatic presence in the Vatican (seems like they don't have enough space to be giving everybody embassies), but one of the few things enforcing state sovereignty is the ambassador system; if we roll in with some black helicopter-enforced extraordinary rendition, the Vatican could theoretically take our diplomats hostage and and a lot of other countries could follow suit.
Bah just send in a couple thousand CS gas grenades. The former pope will come out eventually, or we get a nice shiny Temple of Doom style statue to put someplace nice.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Probably - breaking international law to storm the Vatican (which, even if convicted, a big chunk of the world still would respect in some form) and capture a crusty old white man who didn't pose an imminent threat to anyone would be pretty tough to justify.
edit: plus, more practically speaking, I don't know if we have any sort of diplomatic presence in the Vatican (seems like they don't have enough space to be giving everybody embassies), but one of the few things enforcing state sovereignty is the ambassador system; if we roll in with some black helicopter-enforced extraordinary rendition, the Vatican could theoretically take our diplomats hostage and and a lot of other countries could follow suit.
Many of the embedded clergy in Vatican City are American citizens.
It's not like it's a bunch of born-and-bred Vaticanians living there. No one that lives there is actually from there.
Send a letter demanding the suspects to be sent to the US to stand trial or the Catholic church gets labeled as an criminal organization and loses its tax free exemptions.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Send a letter demanding the suspects to be sent to the US to stand trial or the Catholic church gets labeled as an criminal organization and loses its tax free exemptions.
The tax exemption thing should have happened ages ago when the first reports of conspiracy and child abuse proved to be true.
The Vatican is ridiculously well-connected. The odds of the brunt of any sort of international law enforcement mechanism being brought against them are incredibly low.
Basically, they'll just get to keep on keepin' on until first-world Catholics finally fucking stop supporting their bigoted, child-raping asses.
The Vatican is ridiculously well-connected. The odds of the brunt of any sort of international law enforcement mechanism being brought against them are incredibly low.
Basically, they'll just get to keep on keepin' on until first-world Catholics finally fucking stop supporting their bigoted, child-raping asses.
This.
The appeals to international law & sovereignty are always a laugh, though. Apparently the Vatican's claim must be upheld at all costs, no matter what, or the world would descend into anarchy!, nevermind that it was established by a military dictatorship during a time when all of Europe was being carved-up for the nice white Christian folk (especially if they spoke German!)
Of course, the sovereignty of, say, Pakistan, or Canada, or Palestine... well that shit's just up in the fuckin' air, man!
The Vatican is ridiculously well-connected. The odds of the brunt of any sort of international law enforcement mechanism being brought against them are incredibly low.
Basically, they'll just get to keep on keepin' on until first-world Catholics finally fucking stop supporting their bigoted, child-raping asses.
This.
The appeals to international law & sovereignty are always a laugh, though. Apparently the Vatican's claim must be upheld at all costs, no matter what, or the world would descend into anarchy!, nevermind that it was established by a military dictatorship during a time when all of Europe was being carved-up for the nice white Christian folk (especially if they spoke German!)
Of course, the sovereignty of, say, Pakistan, or Canada, or Palestine... well that shit's just up in the fuckin' air, man!
Well I mean. Maybe some of us have actually thought about the potential fallout of literally assaulting the physical headquarters of a major world religion. That could also be a thing, you know.
Bah just send in a couple thousand CS gas grenades. The former pope will come out eventually, or we get a nice shiny Temple of Doom style statue to put someplace nice.
Send a letter demanding the suspects to be sent to the US to stand trial or the Catholic church gets labeled as an criminal organization and loses its tax free exemptions.
The tax exemption thing should have happened ages ago just because
The Vatican is ridiculously well-connected. The odds of the brunt of any sort of international law enforcement mechanism being brought against them are incredibly low.
Basically, they'll just get to keep on keepin' on until first-world Catholics finally fucking stop supporting their bigoted, child-raping asses.
Yeah, I mean people are entitled to their religious beliefs but we're at a point where I can't see any reason to continue giving tax exempt status to an organized child rape ring.
Key word being organized. Like, they're good at it, and they go to great lengths to make sure those kids keep getting raped. Like there's a special teacher's edition of the Catholic Bible that says it's the church's duty to violate children. They keep that on the low, though.
The Catholic Church has way too much influence in the U.S. for that to happen.
Honestly, we can fantasize about them getting the punishment they so richly deserve, but the worst-case scenario for them is a little bit of bad PR. They won't even get a slap on the wrist.
Discussing storming the Vatican isn't really productive. I suspect they will lose their legal protections at some point, regardless, but it won't be for another generation or two, once their influence is played out. In Western countries, their power comes largely from their influence over the laity, which is dwindling away in many areas. The other big issue facing them is their requirement to bring in priests from abroad (usually meaning a Third World country), as traditionally Catholic countries don't produce anywhere near enough. I suspect that once they start having child molestation scandals involving these priests, we'll start seeing an even larger backlash. As much as conservative Catholics like to fantasize that they're going to be martyred for speaking out against homosexuality or abortion, the reality is that the Church is pretty much at the point now where they cannot maintain a sufficient level of interest to maintain their infrastructure in many places.
I think the catholic church will limp on for quite a while, but the straw that will break the camel's back will be when white first world kids are getting raped by the imported third world priests.
I think that outcome is inevitable, and all the people who overlook the white priests being protected will have their racism kick in when it's black or Brown priests.
Vatican is the last vestige of upheld fascist decisions in Europe. The Lateran Treaty is really something that should've been annulled with the fall of Mussolini, but Vatican managed to somehow convince everyone that they weren't totally in cahoots with the fascists, and they should be allowed to remain independent despite all other fascist policies being revoked.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Judging from the cardinal’s personal blog, if he travels to Rome he will arrive prayerfully accepting his role in the scandal — the role of “scapegoat.” He said on Wednesday that he is sustained lately by spiritual writings that focus on “the acceptance of being scapegoated, pointing out the necessary connection between humiliation and redemption.” It seems possible, however, that he prefers the role of martyr: “This scandal is putting us, the clergy and the church, where we belong — with the excluded ones; Jesus was painted with the same brush as the two thieves crucified with him.”
You'd think there'd be something in the Bible about comparing yourself to Jesus
Well the goal is (ostensibly) to become more like Jesus, so there's nothing inherently wrong about feeling a connection of the sort Mahoney is describing.
It's just that Mahoney has no right to make that comparison because he actually is a pile of shit, and guilty of everything he's accused of.
So am I not alone in thinking a secret network of gay Vatican officials is the least surprising rumor/leak that could possibly have come out? No pun intended on that one, but I'm sure there will be plenty more.
Not that I really want the church to survive, but this could be the best thing to happen to them/preserve their longevity if it's true and they're forced to accept these officials. If they continue their current stance, they're doomed.
The problem is that the language used within the Vatican is so distorted; 'gay' tends to mean 'accused of raping someone male'. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if that leak is really about Vatican officials being blackmailed over rape.
I hope against hope that there is some disastrous unraveling as a result of this mounting bullshit, and for whatever reason the Conclave falls apart and a new Pope is never chosen. That wouldn't solve the problems of the RCC, but it would sure be a start.
It would be kind of fucked up if the Pope was resigning because a couple mucky mucks of the Vatican were getting black mailed after someone caught them at one of their parties with consensual gay sex and zero rape. Particularly when you consider that the child rape cover up thing didn't seem to phase him and that he was involved in the cover up.
I got the impression that there might be more here than a couple mucky mucks of the Vatican getting on at gay orgies. There seems to be an indication of possible financial corruption and I would not at all be surprised if some of this turned up more child rape covers on the part of the Catholic Church.
I have an idea. Send feminine clothing to insult their commander's masculinity and enrage him so that their forces will abandon fortifications to attack.
I also think it would be nice for the Vatican to post a truthful statement of net worth before they ever take another goddamned cent from tithes.
YOU LIVE IN A CITY MADE OF SOLID GOLD
crammed full of priceless works of art
Maybe they think "priceless" means "not worth anything," like I did when I was 5.
Apparently there is no difference between the two in Russian, which is why it's hard to argue for the preservation of historically or scientifically important locations when a corporation wants to bulldoze it.
I have an idea. Send feminine clothing to insult their commander's masculinity and enrage him so that their forces will abandon fortifications to attack.
I also think it would be nice for the Vatican to post a truthful statement of net worth before they ever take another goddamned cent from tithes.
YOU LIVE IN A CITY MADE OF SOLID GOLD
crammed full of priceless works of art
Maybe they think "priceless" means "not worth anything," like I did when I was 5.
Apparently there is no difference between the two in Russian, which is why it's hard to argue for the preservation of historically or scientifically important locations when a corporation wants to bulldoze it.
"Invaluable" is less ambiguous.
I don't know if that's a word in Russian, either. My previous statement was based off something a native Russian once told me.
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I have a hard time believing that anyone that's attracted to a lifestyle where large groups of men live together and dress themselves in flowing gold dresses and jewelry could be gay.
Good to know that if a priest ever comes forward saying he might have inappropriate feelings and needs medical help the response will now be "lets cut off your head" rather then "Just don't worry about it, we never had this conversation."
I am sure that will get a lot more of this out in the open and solve the problem.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Good to know that if a priest ever comes forward saying he might have inappropriate feelings and needs medical help the response will now be "lets cut off your head" rather then "Just don't worry about it, we never had this conversation."
I am sure that will get a lot more of this out in the open and solve the problem.
"Just don't worry about it, we never had this conversation" is apparently the go-to response to anything the Church would rather not think about.
"Bishop, I've abused children and am worried I might do so again."
"Sir, there's evidence that condoms actually do prevent HIV infection."
"I think a Church official might be making meth and hiring gay prostitutes."
I think what Catholic laypeople don't understand about the church is that, yes, it's political. Extremely political. Who becomes an archbishop or cardinal? Someone who likes power. That is not necessarily a bad thing, a person can like power because it allows them to act for the greater good. But it DOES often lead to trouble since these are unelected positions. I mean, it's no wonder the whole thing turned into a giant buddy-buddy good ol' boys network.
The other thing that I think most people don't get, Catholic or not, is that the religion is not based on the archbishops, cardinals, priests, etc, mindlessly obeying the Pope no matter what. The Vatican promotes this idea of obedience because, duh, the Pope is linked to the Vatican and they want to maintain as much power as possible. But make no mistake, there are other groups in the church that have power of their own (the Congress of American Bishops, for example, and the various orders of nuns) and they can snub the Vatican, in their own ways. "In their own ways" is what makes it hard for us to see. We're used to seeing direct snubs and insults from politicians . . . like Governor Christie blasting his fellow Republicans for not voting on Sandy aid. Or President Obama making his "fewer bayonets" remark to Romney during that one debate. Hard to miss those. Easier to miss things from people who write about gay sex blackmail as "external influence from worldly laymen regarding the nonobservance of the sixth and seventh commandments." (That's the one about coveting your neighbor's ass, right? Ba-dum ching!)
I don't speak VatSpeak myself, but I've read some books talking about past Vatican skirmishes, and it's pretty fascinating.
I have an idea. Send feminine clothing to insult their commander's masculinity and enrage him so that their forces will abandon fortifications to attack.
I also think it would be nice for the Vatican to post a truthful statement of net worth before they ever take another goddamned cent from tithes.
YOU LIVE IN A CITY MADE OF SOLID GOLD
crammed full of priceless works of art
Maybe they think "priceless" means "not worth anything," like I did when I was 5.
Apparently there is no difference between the two in Russian, which is why it's hard to argue for the preservation of historically or scientifically important locations when a corporation wants to bulldoze it.
"Invaluable" is less ambiguous.
I don't know if that's a word in Russian, either. My previous statement was based off something a native Russian once told me.
Good to know that if a priest ever comes forward saying he might have inappropriate feelings and needs medical help the response will now be "lets cut off your head" rather then "Just don't worry about it, we never had this conversation."
I am sure that will get a lot more of this out in the open and solve the problem.
I think it's meant for lesser people. Hard to believe it's a problem when a priest does it. "Dealing with homosexuals? Oh, but he isn't really gay, he's a priest."
Edit: "I'm sure it was actually that witch over there."
I think what Catholic laypeople don't understand about the church is that, yes, it's political. Extremely political. Who becomes an archbishop or cardinal? Someone who likes power. That is not necessarily a bad thing, a person can like power because it allows them to act for the greater good. But it DOES often lead to trouble since these are unelected positions. I mean, it's no wonder the whole thing turned into a giant buddy-buddy good ol' boys network.
The other thing that I think most people don't get, Catholic or not, is that the religion is not based on the archbishops, cardinals, priests, etc, mindlessly obeying the Pope no matter what. The Vatican promotes this idea of obedience because, duh, the Pope is linked to the Vatican and they want to maintain as much power as possible. But make no mistake, there are other groups in the church that have power of their own (the Congress of American Bishops, for example, and the various orders of nuns) and they can snub the Vatican, in their own ways. "In their own ways" is what makes it hard for us to see. We're used to seeing direct snubs and insults from politicians . . . like Governor Christie blasting his fellow Republicans for not voting on Sandy aid. Or President Obama making his "fewer bayonets" remark to Romney during that one debate. Hard to miss those. Easier to miss things from people who write about gay sex blackmail as "external influence from worldly laymen regarding the nonobservance of the sixth and seventh commandments." (That's the one about coveting your neighbor's ass, right? Ba-dum ching!)
I don't speak VatSpeak myself, but I've read some books talking about past Vatican skirmishes, and it's pretty fascinating.
I don't see how you can know the first thing about the history of the Catholic church and not think that the papacy is completely political.
I mean, Benedict IX was a twelve-year-old boy, who proceeded to sell the papacy, and then renege on the deal. Though, I suppose that did start up the Doctrine of Infallibility, a.k.a. "unless I call no backsies, I don't really mean it."
Vatican is the last vestige of upheld fascist decisions in Europe. The Lateran Treaty is really something that should've been annulled with the fall of Mussolini, but Vatican managed to somehow convince everyone that they weren't totally in cahoots with the fascists, and they should be allowed to remain independent despite all other fascist policies being revoked.
These are the people who persuaded Mussolini to believe that modern art was immoral.
Vatican is the last vestige of upheld fascist decisions in Europe. The Lateran Treaty is really something that should've been annulled with the fall of Mussolini, but Vatican managed to somehow convince everyone that they weren't totally in cahoots with the fascists, and they should be allowed to remain independent despite all other fascist policies being revoked.
These are the people who persuaded Mussolini to believe that modern art was immoral.
They're as stupid as they are evil.
The Catholic Church was behind Franco's fascist dictatorship and has directly supported right wing dictatorships in South America. Their record in Asia and Africa on this is also bleak.
It is also worth noting that the only major left-leaning doctrine to have developed in the church in the last century - liberation theology - was suppressed by hard liners in the Vatican. The man responsible for leading that purge was rewarding by being named Pope.
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Dude, I'm already hitting up BackPage listings. It's like I can't help myself.
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...hhnnnnnghhh...
I have Alvy Singer Syndrome. I can't stand anyone that would want to be with me.
edit: plus, more practically speaking, I don't know if we have any sort of diplomatic presence in the Vatican (seems like they don't have enough space to be giving everybody embassies), but one of the few things enforcing state sovereignty is the ambassador system; if we roll in with some black helicopter-enforced extraordinary rendition, the Vatican could theoretically take our diplomats hostage and and a lot of other countries could follow suit.
Many of the embedded clergy in Vatican City are American citizens.
It's not like it's a bunch of born-and-bred Vaticanians living there. No one that lives there is actually from there.
Send a letter demanding the suspects to be sent to the US to stand trial or the Catholic church gets labeled as an criminal organization and loses its tax free exemptions.
The tax exemption thing should have happened ages ago when the first reports of conspiracy and child abuse proved to be true.
Basically, they'll just get to keep on keepin' on until first-world Catholics finally fucking stop supporting their bigoted, child-raping asses.
This.
The appeals to international law & sovereignty are always a laugh, though. Apparently the Vatican's claim must be upheld at all costs, no matter what, or the world would descend into anarchy!, nevermind that it was established by a military dictatorship during a time when all of Europe was being carved-up for the nice white Christian folk (especially if they spoke German!)
Of course, the sovereignty of, say, Pakistan, or Canada, or Palestine... well that shit's just up in the fuckin' air, man!
Well I mean. Maybe some of us have actually thought about the potential fallout of literally assaulting the physical headquarters of a major world religion. That could also be a thing, you know.
Burners deployed. Fire is doing well.
Yeah, I mean people are entitled to their religious beliefs but we're at a point where I can't see any reason to continue giving tax exempt status to an organized child rape ring.
Key word being organized. Like, they're good at it, and they go to great lengths to make sure those kids keep getting raped. Like there's a special teacher's edition of the Catholic Bible that says it's the church's duty to violate children. They keep that on the low, though.
Honestly, we can fantasize about them getting the punishment they so richly deserve, but the worst-case scenario for them is a little bit of bad PR. They won't even get a slap on the wrist.
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I think that outcome is inevitable, and all the people who overlook the white priests being protected will have their racism kick in when it's black or Brown priests.
Hell is too good for this pile of shit.
Well the goal is (ostensibly) to become more like Jesus, so there's nothing inherently wrong about feeling a connection of the sort Mahoney is describing.
It's just that Mahoney has no right to make that comparison because he actually is a pile of shit, and guilty of everything he's accused of.
Not that I really want the church to survive, but this could be the best thing to happen to them/preserve their longevity if it's true and they're forced to accept these officials. If they continue their current stance, they're doomed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-amid-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry
I hope against hope that there is some disastrous unraveling as a result of this mounting bullshit, and for whatever reason the Conclave falls apart and a new Pope is never chosen. That wouldn't solve the problems of the RCC, but it would sure be a start.
It would be kind of fucked up if the Pope was resigning because a couple mucky mucks of the Vatican were getting black mailed after someone caught them at one of their parties with consensual gay sex and zero rape. Particularly when you consider that the child rape cover up thing didn't seem to phase him and that he was involved in the cover up.
I got the impression that there might be more here than a couple mucky mucks of the Vatican getting on at gay orgies. There seems to be an indication of possible financial corruption and I would not at all be surprised if some of this turned up more child rape covers on the part of the Catholic Church.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
"Invaluable" is less ambiguous.
I don't know if that's a word in Russian, either. My previous statement was based off something a native Russian once told me.
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It just doesn't add up.
I am sure that will get a lot more of this out in the open and solve the problem.
"Just don't worry about it, we never had this conversation" is apparently the go-to response to anything the Church would rather not think about.
"Bishop, I've abused children and am worried I might do so again."
"Sir, there's evidence that condoms actually do prevent HIV infection."
"I think a Church official might be making meth and hiring gay prostitutes."
The other thing that I think most people don't get, Catholic or not, is that the religion is not based on the archbishops, cardinals, priests, etc, mindlessly obeying the Pope no matter what. The Vatican promotes this idea of obedience because, duh, the Pope is linked to the Vatican and they want to maintain as much power as possible. But make no mistake, there are other groups in the church that have power of their own (the Congress of American Bishops, for example, and the various orders of nuns) and they can snub the Vatican, in their own ways. "In their own ways" is what makes it hard for us to see. We're used to seeing direct snubs and insults from politicians . . . like Governor Christie blasting his fellow Republicans for not voting on Sandy aid. Or President Obama making his "fewer bayonets" remark to Romney during that one debate. Hard to miss those. Easier to miss things from people who write about gay sex blackmail as "external influence from worldly laymen regarding the nonobservance of the sixth and seventh commandments." (That's the one about coveting your neighbor's ass, right? Ba-dum ching!)
I don't speak VatSpeak myself, but I've read some books talking about past Vatican skirmishes, and it's pretty fascinating.
"Not determinable" will also get the job done.
I think it's meant for lesser people. Hard to believe it's a problem when a priest does it. "Dealing with homosexuals? Oh, but he isn't really gay, he's a priest."
Edit: "I'm sure it was actually that witch over there."
I mean, Benedict IX was a twelve-year-old boy, who proceeded to sell the papacy, and then renege on the deal. Though, I suppose that did start up the Doctrine of Infallibility, a.k.a. "unless I call no backsies, I don't really mean it."
They're as stupid as they are evil.
The Catholic Church was behind Franco's fascist dictatorship and has directly supported right wing dictatorships in South America. Their record in Asia and Africa on this is also bleak.
It is also worth noting that the only major left-leaning doctrine to have developed in the church in the last century - liberation theology - was suppressed by hard liners in the Vatican. The man responsible for leading that purge was rewarding by being named Pope.
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