HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
edited May 2013
No one ever said that the Xbone's ideal user doesn't exist.
The crazy thing is that, based on the sales projections that were circulating earlier today, Microsoft seems to think that hundreds of millions of households meet that profile. And they're absolutely mistaken about that.
Over the past few days, we have been reading comments and message boards following the Xbox One announcement. There are a few questions regarding used games. I wanted to clarify and provide this official statement:
The ability to trade in and resell games is important to gamers and to Xbox. Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games. Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete. We will disclose more information in the near future.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
Certainly doesn't mean less graphical horsepower.
But there's Cloud computing! So maybe the Xbone will come out on top!
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
Also not really relevant since it's all gonna look basically the same just like this gen. It's all cross-platform equality.
Thank you very much Ceno for that perfect immortal classic, System Shock 2!
Digital games aren't the end of the world. Steam has made things a lot more fun instead of less fun.
I mean, yeah, the Xbone misses the point on a lot of this. But it's not conceptually the end, it just might be a bit of a speedbump.
It's also simply the nature of software these days. The console market is already making steps away from being a physical-based medium. MS is just jumping ahead a big step more.
It's not like anything else in the industry has changed here.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
Certainly doesn't mean less graphical horsepower.
But there's Cloud computing! So maybe the Xbone will come out on top!
Even if the PS4 is marginally more powerful, it doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme since almost every game that matters will be on both platforms and probably look essentially the same on both.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
Certainly doesn't mean less graphical horsepower.
Sure, but you can buy a video card today with a similar profile for $300US. "Horsepower" may sell cars - but it's torque that wins races, and the same concept applies to PCs/consoles. It's only going to be as fast as its weakest part.
I mean, yeah, the PS4's stats look all-around better. Which makes it sound like a weak argument. I'm mainly objecting to the quantification.
I'm not sure how many folks use Games on Demand, but if the Xbox One works the same way it probably won't be too big a hassle.
Right now, I own 3 360s. We can talk about me being a consumer whore later. I buy the occasional GoDemand title.
On the console I buy them on, I can log in with my (silver, because gold isn't worth it to me) Xbox live account, or my wife's account, or no account at all, and launch the downloaded games without issue.
On either of the two other xboxes, I can download and play the GoD titles if I log in as me. My wife can't.
Every 90 days, I can sign in with my account, go to account management, and do a license transfer on any of the 360s. This ties all of the games to that 360 and now I can play them there.
And no, it's not as friendly as having a physical disc that I can move from machine to machine, but it works out well enough.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
Certainly doesn't mean less graphical horsepower.
But there's Cloud computing! So maybe the Xbone will come out on top!
Even if the PS4 is marginally more powerful, it doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme since almost every game that matters will be on both platforms and probably look essentially the same on both.
Maybe, but it's the exclusive games that will make it shine.
Well that is marginally less dumb, although it would still indicate that the second console needs
1) an internet connection so I can log in (which can be problematic if it's a group getting together in a public place, like my gamers club often does)
2) enough free space to install the thing
Mostly the first one, though.
I bought the disc -- new, even! -- and I bought your fucking heavy black box, I should be able to play the damn thing without asking your permission.
You're not buying the disc. You're buying a license to use the product with a single account.
Is this really how it works? Is it illegal to snap a disc in twain? It should be, if it still belongs to the seller.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
I'm not even able to discern "+50% prettyness", anyway.
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HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
Over the past few days, we have been reading comments and message boards following the Xbox One announcement. There are a few questions regarding used games. I wanted to clarify and provide this official statement:
The ability to trade in and resell games is important to gamers and to Xbox. Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games. Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete. We will disclose more information in the near future.
Clear as mud.
It's at least confirmation of this: used games will behave very differently on the Xbox One. There would be no need to "disclose information about their policies" unless trade-in and resale were going to change.
Well that is marginally less dumb, although it would still indicate that the second console needs
1) an internet connection so I can log in (which can be problematic if it's a group getting together in a public place, like my gamers club often does)
2) enough free space to install the thing
Mostly the first one, though.
I bought the disc -- new, even! -- and I bought your fucking heavy black box, I should be able to play the damn thing without asking your permission.
You're not buying the disc. You're buying a license to use the product with a single account.
Is this really how it works? Is it illegal to snap a disc in twain? It should be, if it still belongs to the seller.
That ... what?
You can snap your disk all you want. You own a license to the software on the disk. They don't care what you do with the disk.
It's that you own the physical fact of the disc itself, but not the data on the disc.
It's like with a book. You can own the physical object - the binding, the pages, the ink - but you do not actually own the words, for purposes of copyright. The book is yours to do with as you please, so long as you do not try to profit from reproducing it.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
I'm not even able to discern "+50% prettyness", anyway.
Well, in theory, it would allow the PS4 to run games at a better framerate or higher resolution. This gen, you might have seen something similar with 720p games vs. 1080p games.
Of course, with the next gen, we're talking 1080p vs. 4k. Which is roughly 4x the resolution, vs. 2.25x the difference between 720p and 1080p.
We've looked at the specifications between the next-gen consoles, the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, but it looks like the PS4 might come out as the graphical champion. The PS4 features 50% more graphical horsepower than Microsoft's Xbox One, which is a huge advantage for Sony.
50% more ALUs != 50% more graphical horsepower.
I'm not even able to discern "+50% prettyness", anyway.
Well, in theory, it would allow the PS4 to run games at a better framerate or higher resolution. This gen, you might have seen something similar with 720p games vs. 1080p games.
Of course, with the next gen, we're talking 1080p vs. 4k. Which is roughly 4x the resolution, vs. 2.25x the difference between 720p and 1080p.
Nothing is going to run at 4K next gen. These systems aren't even close to being able to drive that resolution. 2x GTX 680 4GB would choke on that, more or less these little APUs in the current consoles. The difference between the PS4 and Xbox One is going to be nicer shadows and maybe some better anti-aliasing and such small things like that. Not running at discernibly higher framerates or resolutions.
Well that is marginally less dumb, although it would still indicate that the second console needs
1) an internet connection so I can log in (which can be problematic if it's a group getting together in a public place, like my gamers club often does)
2) enough free space to install the thing
Mostly the first one, though.
I bought the disc -- new, even! -- and I bought your fucking heavy black box, I should be able to play the damn thing without asking your permission.
You're not buying the disc. You're buying a license to use the product with a single account.
...which is utter bullshit they can go fuck themselves sideways with.
It's the same way, and has been the same way, with every console since the ps1.
Also the same with all software and movies and anything else that is on a digital medium.
Right, so if I've bought an album on cassette tape or a movie on VHS I get the CD or Blu-Ray for free because after all I've already bought the license for the content, right? Oh wait, no.
hey guys, I'm not entirely sure if this has already been posted in this thread (let me know if it has and I'll delete this post), but I was trying to find some info about X1 after the reveal and I found these 2 articles ... I think this guy seriously makes some good points there. I have to agree with him about just calming down and waiting those 16 days to see what they'll show at E3. Either way - good read.
Well that is marginally less dumb, although it would still indicate that the second console needs
1) an internet connection so I can log in (which can be problematic if it's a group getting together in a public place, like my gamers club often does)
2) enough free space to install the thing
Mostly the first one, though.
I bought the disc -- new, even! -- and I bought your fucking heavy black box, I should be able to play the damn thing without asking your permission.
You're not buying the disc. You're buying a license to use the product with a single account.
...which is utter bullshit they can go fuck themselves sideways with.
It's the same way, and has been the same way, with every console since the ps1.
Also the same with all software and movies and anything else that is on a digital medium.
Right, so if I've bought an album on cassette tape or a movie on VHS I get the CD or Blu-Ray for free because after all I've already bought the license for the content, right? Oh wait, no.
No, you don't get another piece of physical media for free.
How you can backup your media actually depends on the specific types since the law is a bit of a cobbled-together mess here.
However for software, you do have a right to backup:
Can I backup my computer software?
Yes, under certain conditions as provided by section 117 of the Copyright Act. Although the precise term used under section 117 is “archival” copy, not “backup” copy, these terms today are used interchangeably. This privilege extends only to computer programs and not to other types of works.
Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:
the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
you are the legal owner of the copy; and
any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.
You are not permitted under section 117 to make a backup copy of other material on a computer's hard drive, such as other copyrighted works that have been downloaded (e.g., music, films).
It is also important to check the terms of sale or license agreement of the original copy of software in case any special conditions have been put in place by the copyright owner that might affect your ability or right under section 117 to make a backup copy. There is no other provision in the Copyright Act that specifically authorizes the making of backup copies of works other than computer programs even if those works are distributed as digital copies.
Well that is marginally less dumb, although it would still indicate that the second console needs
1) an internet connection so I can log in (which can be problematic if it's a group getting together in a public place, like my gamers club often does)
2) enough free space to install the thing
Mostly the first one, though.
I bought the disc -- new, even! -- and I bought your fucking heavy black box, I should be able to play the damn thing without asking your permission.
You're not buying the disc. You're buying a license to use the product with a single account.
...which is utter bullshit they can go fuck themselves sideways with.
It's the same way, and has been the same way, with every console since the ps1.
Also the same with all software and movies and anything else that is on a digital medium.
Right, so if I've bought an album on cassette tape or a movie on VHS I get the CD or Blu-Ray for free because after all I've already bought the license for the content, right? Oh wait, no.
No, the question would be, if you bought the game, that means you could... I don't know... make a sequel to the game, right?
No?
Oh, that's right... because you didn't buy the game. You bought a licence to that game.
I notice the people trying so hard to defend a product from a company that has shown no respect for its prior customers aren't exactly being respectful themselves. All he did was state that he wasn't a US resident, so I don't see why you have to be so disrespectful by saying you're not his "fucking" lawyers.
Nobody asked you to link the site if it was taking up that much of your time, you could have just politely answered the question he asked.
Shryke, why do you have to stop him from having a good time? All he's doing is posting in an unhostest fashion because he wants to pretend that things don't work the way they work and throw out jokes about that evil Microsoft corperation.
I mean, why do you have to post honestly and without hyperbole and ruin his fun?
I notice the people trying so hard to defend a product from a company that has shown no respect for its prior customers aren't exactly being respectful themselves. All he did was state that he wasn't a US resident, so I don't see why you have to be so disrespectful by saying you're not his "fucking" lawyers.
Nobody asked you to link the site if it was taking up that much of your time, you could have just politely answered the question he asked.
Yeah, because the people trashing this thing since Tuesdaycertainly have been respectful and mature about it.
I notice the people trying so hard to defend a product from a company that has shown no respect for its prior customers aren't exactly being respectful themselves. All he did was state that he wasn't a US resident, so I don't see why you have to be so disrespectful by saying you're not his "fucking" lawyers.
Nobody asked you to link the site if it was taking up that much of your time, you could have just politely answered the question he asked.
Yeah, because the people trashing this thing since Tuesdaycertainly have been respectful and mature about it.
I think there may be a small difference between posters joking about a multinational corporation and its consumer hardware and posters being antagonistic against other posters.
Microsoft definitely doesn't need anybody here to protect its feelings.
Also, I'm not a lawyer but I studied IP for years in law school and this issue is all a bit more complex than anybody here is presenting it. So I say since nobody here is a lawyer we might hold off on pointing out what we always/never were legally, theoretically allowed to do with our games since its less about that and more what people have come to expect to be able to do.
SteamID : same as my PA forum name
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I don't think people are joking, but anyway it's not a matter of protecting a corporation's feelings. It's a matter of pages and pages of negativity, often founded on speculation, being a huge bummer. Not everyone wants their mood to be brought down by a game console.
I personally don't care to much used games, as I never buy them and almost never trade stuff in. I really like the idea of being able to just dl a game on release day and not have to go to a store or wait for UPS. So far the X1 has sounded pretty cool so far, but the real test is gonna be E3. I wanna see some of these 15 games they have for the first year.
I personally don't care to much used games, as I never buy them and almost never trade stuff in. I really like the idea of being able to just dl a game on release day and not have to go to a store or wait for UPS. So far the X1 has sounded pretty cool so far, but the real test is gonna be E3. I wanna see some of these 15 games they have for the first year.
Posts
The crazy thing is that, based on the sales projections that were circulating earlier today, Microsoft seems to think that hundreds of millions of households meet that profile. And they're absolutely mistaken about that.
Digital games aren't the end of the world. Steam has made things a lot more fun instead of less fun.
I mean, yeah, the Xbone misses the point on a lot of this. But it's not conceptually the end, it just might be a bit of a speedbump.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
http://majornelson.com/2013/05/24/xbox-one-and-used-games-2/ Clear as mud.
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/30574/ps4-lays-the-graphical-smackdown-on-the-xbox-one-has-50-more-gpu-power/index.html/index.html
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
If there is one thing I learned from this whole ordeal, it's that Giant Bomb was right.
Videogames are bullshit.
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Certainly doesn't mean less graphical horsepower.
But there's Cloud computing! So maybe the Xbone will come out on top!
Also not really relevant since it's all gonna look basically the same just like this gen. It's all cross-platform equality.
It's also simply the nature of software these days. The console market is already making steps away from being a physical-based medium. MS is just jumping ahead a big step more.
It's not like anything else in the industry has changed here.
Even if the PS4 is marginally more powerful, it doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme since almost every game that matters will be on both platforms and probably look essentially the same on both.
I mean, yeah, the PS4's stats look all-around better. Which makes it sound like a weak argument. I'm mainly objecting to the quantification.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Right now, I own 3 360s. We can talk about me being a consumer whore later. I buy the occasional GoDemand title.
On the console I buy them on, I can log in with my (silver, because gold isn't worth it to me) Xbox live account, or my wife's account, or no account at all, and launch the downloaded games without issue.
On either of the two other xboxes, I can download and play the GoD titles if I log in as me. My wife can't.
Every 90 days, I can sign in with my account, go to account management, and do a license transfer on any of the 360s. This ties all of the games to that 360 and now I can play them there.
And no, it's not as friendly as having a physical disc that I can move from machine to machine, but it works out well enough.
Maybe, but it's the exclusive games that will make it shine.
Is this really how it works? Is it illegal to snap a disc in twain? It should be, if it still belongs to the seller.
I'm not even able to discern "+50% prettyness", anyway.
It's at least confirmation of this: used games will behave very differently on the Xbox One. There would be no need to "disclose information about their policies" unless trade-in and resale were going to change.
That ... what?
You can snap your disk all you want. You own a license to the software on the disk. They don't care what you do with the disk.
It's like with a book. You can own the physical object - the binding, the pages, the ink - but you do not actually own the words, for purposes of copyright. The book is yours to do with as you please, so long as you do not try to profit from reproducing it.
Of course, with the next gen, we're talking 1080p vs. 4k. Which is roughly 4x the resolution, vs. 2.25x the difference between 720p and 1080p.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Nothing is going to run at 4K next gen. These systems aren't even close to being able to drive that resolution. 2x GTX 680 4GB would choke on that, more or less these little APUs in the current consoles. The difference between the PS4 and Xbox One is going to be nicer shadows and maybe some better anti-aliasing and such small things like that. Not running at discernibly higher framerates or resolutions.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Right, so if I've bought an album on cassette tape or a movie on VHS I get the CD or Blu-Ray for free because after all I've already bought the license for the content, right? Oh wait, no.
[nice try]
No, you don't get another piece of physical media for free.
How you can backup your media actually depends on the specific types since the law is a bit of a cobbled-together mess here.
However for software, you do have a right to backup: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html
No, the question would be, if you bought the game, that means you could... I don't know... make a sequel to the game, right?
No?
Oh, that's right... because you didn't buy the game. You bought a licence to that game.
No, because you didn't licence it for the wii. And you're not this dumb, so knock it off.
No because those aren't the same piece of software.
I linked the law straight from the .gov site above. I'm not sure what's unclear here.
Then find your own applicable law. We ain't your fucking lawyers and we don't know where you live.
Nobody asked you to link the site if it was taking up that much of your time, you could have just politely answered the question he asked.
Steam
I mean, why do you have to post honestly and without hyperbole and ruin his fun?
Yeah, because the people trashing this thing since Tuesdaycertainly have been respectful and mature about it.
Then congrats, your right to make software backups are almost certainly stronger than what I linked above.
I think there may be a small difference between posters joking about a multinational corporation and its consumer hardware and posters being antagonistic against other posters.
Microsoft definitely doesn't need anybody here to protect its feelings.
Also, I'm not a lawyer but I studied IP for years in law school and this issue is all a bit more complex than anybody here is presenting it. So I say since nobody here is a lawyer we might hold off on pointing out what we always/never were legally, theoretically allowed to do with our games since its less about that and more what people have come to expect to be able to do.
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