BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I didnt say it wasnt a nerf, just pointing out that caps can still be somewhat spread prior to deployment, as long as you give a couple hours warning for deployment.
Also, I think the cure is to kill.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
yeah but that "couple of hours" is pretty important. It means that you can actually use tactics. You can decoy your opponents to the wrong place and kill stuff while they're far away. You can reinforce POS before they can get to you.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
This is something a lot of people have wanted for a long time. It'll be interesting to see it pan out for better or for worse. I really do hope it stops the "drop caps on everything" though.
Heh it's pretty illuminating to see all the worms coming out of the woodwork
ima have to turn down the gain on my bullshit-o-meter because the number of "this will WRECK EVERYTHING AND ALSO WONT CHANGE ANYTHING" posts is quite overwheleming
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
I imagine them as very angry fish, no-where near water, just flapping about.
So after thinking about this a bunch more, I still mostly like it. The obvious dumb stuff (no deathclone for new players, no cap on fatigue) is most likely going to get fixed. Most people are also terrible at math and don't realize you can make one jump every hour without ever building up fatigue, so you can still deploy carriers anywhere within a week at the most. Sucks for people using jump bridges, of course; I'll just train interceptors on every character and won't ever use a jump bridge again.
My only real complaint is that there are still no benefits for holding less space, so at this point these changes are entirely punitive. It's still unquestionably better to have a large empire, it is just more painful to have it. We still have to travel just as far to fight people, only now it's going to be way more painful to do so. The idea of increasing gate use is great, but only if there are other people you're likely to come across, which still won't be true for the vast majority of nullsec. And EVE players are pretty good at risk aversion, and nullsec is still pretty worthless, so I don't imagine many actual invasions / awesome fights taking place directly as a result of this. Lots of smaller stuff, though, which will be ok (unless it is all interceptors all the time, which is a bit more likely).
I think lowsec / fw is going to be awesome, with tons more caps thrown around, and these changes are a complete win for that part of the game.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Well, they also pointed out a change coming to interdiction mechanics, I think? So maybe interceptors will be easier to kill soon(tm).
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Interceptor dps has already been nerfed, and we'll all be ratting in carriers now, so they won't be a problem. My point was more that the enemy probably won't even bring stuff worth trying to kill. They'll just fly around in interceptors and generally be both useless and unkillable (they'll still be travel fit). However, getting rid of the last remaining fast travel option - instawarping interceptors - is probably the point where I'd unsubscribe and wait for some massive quality of life improvements for nullsec.
I'm pretty sure that no radical nerf to Interceptors is being planned, btw. The next round of ship balancing has already been declared; HICs, Dictors & Bombers. I'm expecting bombing to get a significant nerf of some kind.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Hp reduction on the bombs themselves?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
What I want:
-Nerf to bombing that in some way allows for more varied fleet compositions and less ISBombing (and I say that as a person that loves ISBoxer).
-Interdictor bubbles doing crazier shit, like web bubbles instead of point bubbles or bubbles that stop you from jumping through a gate or bubbles that apply heat to everything in them (idea courtesy of Effin). I kinda doubt this will happen, but maybe something neat will!
-Hictor points that let you more easily tackle enemy fleets without being suicide bait. Ideal scenario would be a 100km point that's also 5-10km AoE on the target but I know that I'm dreaming here. Edit: Also awesome, a hictor point that applies a huge-ass bump to the target.
Ellthiteren on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
The problem with this, and a lot of other changes to EVE, and why people rage, boil down to two things: One, CCP half the time doesn't seem to have a clue what they want or what they are doing. They vacillate between these various positions on how the game should play until they release this giant change that ends up being total bullshit. Two, tangentially related to the first, CCP has probably the worst track record of any MMO developer for being able to implement what they say they re going to, and actually having that change have the effect they want it to.
In short, I have zero confidence CCP has any clue what they are doing, and isn't just throwing monkey shit at the wall to see what sticks. The fact that we are even having to see these kind of changes is because of massive failings of vision within CCP that ever allowed super caps to exist, or allowed caps to become a force projection mechanism. Anyone who understands basic cause and effect could have seen years ago that super caps being made as strong as they were, and caps in general being given a drive that can jump through entire regions of space with near impunity, was going to cause issues in the future. Now we get to watch CCP try and fix those failings of vision with ham fisted approaches to problems that really shouldn't exist if they had been doing their job three years ago.
Or a big increase in their explosion radius and/or add an explosion velocity stat (currently bombs ignore target speed). Or whtaever, really, anything that means you don't need 200k+ EHP and/or bubble immunity to have a hope of staying on the battlefield if your ship is bigger than a frigate.
The problem with this, and a lot of other changes to EVE, and why people rage, boil down to two things: One, CCP half the time doesn't seem to have a clue what they want or what they are doing. They vacillate between these various positions on how the game should play until they release this giant change that ends up being total bullshit. Two, tangentially related to the first, CCP has probably the worst track record of any MMO developer for being able to implement what they say they re going to, and actually having that change have the effect they want it to.
In short, I have zero confidence CCP has any clue what they are doing, and isn't just throwing monkey shit at the wall to see what sticks. The fact that we are even having to see these kind of changes is because of massive failings of vision within CCP that ever allowed super caps to exist, or allowed caps to become a force projection mechanism. Anyone who understands basic cause and effect could have seen years ago that super caps being made as strong as they were, and caps in general being given a drive that can jump through entire regions of space with near impunity, was going to cause issues in the future. Now we get to watch CCP try and fix those failings of vision with ham fisted approaches to problems that really shouldn't exist if they had been doing their job three years ago.
Did CCP kill your dog or something? because it seems to me like they have a very clear vision of what they want to accomplish with these changes and Greyscale has been very open about those goals and has explained why they think these changes will promote or at least enable them.
There has in reply been a gigantic amount of mad because many people have - correctly - deduced that these changes will make it extremely difficult to do what they've been doing for the last 5 years. But changing what they've been doing is precisely the point. Every idiot crying about what a giant cockpunch it's going to be to fight someone 25 jumps away should instead be looking at the people 10 jumps away and thoughtfully fingering the trigger on his 425mm Railguns.
And as for what CCP want to change it to, blame me for that vision if you like, and I do mean me personally. because Greyscale is practically fucking quoting the things I said about how nullsec should be to Fozzie & him last January. That vision is strongly corrosive towards the current bloc meta.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
My point is that CCP's bumbling, stumbling, way to develop a game is why we even have the current bloc meta. Not a single thing they've done to date gives me a shred of confidence they can fix it especially when the real fix is one they are afraid to implement (remove super caps from the game, whole cloth).
You've met these people personally, so I get it, you think their super cool dudes with mad rude skills, and I respect that. I'm sure as people they are great, I'd love to have a beer with Grayscale. As a neutral observer who plays their game, they project an air of having absolutely no clue what they are doing as a company. Even if individual guys like Greyscale mostly know what's going on, their past release history gives absolutely no assurances that they won't fuck all this up to and we won't have Dooms Days Through Cyno's or Dominion 2.0 on our hands.
DuriniaEvolved from Space PotatoesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2014
What's killing me right now is that, for the period of time between these changes and the changes to sov (and potentially after, depending on the changes), POS and production logistics is going to fucking brutal, even with 90% fatigue role bonus. (It doesn't help that Greyscale openly states that he wants us to go back to forming fleets for freighter convoys, which shows very little understanding of how much "work" is done solo in nullsec. Fueling/emptying a tower should not take 12 people.)
I can understand encouraging people to have a smaller footprint (and support it!), but the "fuedal lords that only interact with their neighbors" model is going to end up making the world feel awfully empty if the range and fatigue values are left as they currently stand. One of EVE's selling points is that you're on a single-shard world - but it won't really feel like it if travel is made too painful.
It has to happen, but they have a very tricky balance line to walk on the actual values.
(4:52:36 PM) naja_bo: "an unused wasteland that is too much effort to live in, that's my dream Greyscale"
Durinia on
For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
--Mark Twain
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
CCP is infamous for having a vision of the way the game should be played that doesn't line up with the way people actually play. The brutal track record of fucking things up that i mentioned before tends to come from times when CCP attempts to force their vision of the way the game should be played on the player base. See: Fueling towers should require a support fleet. This is not at all what will happen. Instead what will happen is that the dedicated few who do tower logistics will just burn out even faster as they start making fuel runs form stations in blockade runners instead of jump freighters.
There has in reply been a gigantic amount of mad because many people have - correctly - deduced that these changes will make it extremely difficult to do what they've been doing for the last 5 years. But changing what they've been doing is precisely the point. Every idiot crying about what a giant cockpunch it's going to be to fight someone 25 jumps away should instead be looking at the people 10 jumps away and thoughtfully fingering the trigger on his 425mm Railguns.
Everyone wants this, but the force projection nerf doesn't do it. The force projection nerf serves to (hopefully) create space for smaller groups to do things. I like it and I agree that it needs to happen. But it doesn't encourage us to reset our allies; we've put up with them for years, and my complaint is exactly that pitting punishing game mechanics against social ties is fucking terrible design. It just pisses people off and isn't likely to work. Instead, give us a good reason to reset our allies, and we will in a heartbeat. The quality of life improvements - occupancy based sov - are what will actually break up the blocs, because we won't need to hold huge swathes of space to make living in nullsec worthwhile (see: top down v. bottom up income); here the capital changes are necessary so small groups have a chance to not instantly get crushed. Unfortunately, putting the changes in this order just makes things wildly more annoying until the later fixes arrive, if they arrive at all (which I think we can safely be nervous about).
What's killing me right now is that, for the period of time between these changes and the changes to sov (and potentially after, depending on the changes), POS and production logistics is going to fucking brutal, even with 90% fatigue role bonus. (It doesn't help that Greyscale openly states that he wants us to go back to forming fleets for freighter convoys, which shows very little understanding of how much "work" is done solo in nullsec. Fueling/emptying a tower should not take 12 people.)
I can understand encouraging people to have a smaller footprint (and support it!), but the "fuedal lords that only interact with their neighbors" model is going to end up making the world feel awfully empty if the range and fatigue values are left as they currently stand. One of EVE's selling points is that you're on a single-shard world - but it won't really feel like it if travel is made too painful.
It has to happen, but they have a very tricky balance line to walk on the actual values.
(4:52:36 PM) naja_bo: "an unused wasteland that is too much effort to live in, that's my dream Greyscale"
You know you can just wait for 6 minutes and then jump again with no fatigue?
I mean I'm sure it'll be annoying for the JF guys that it takes then 45 minutes to get back from Jita with over 200,000m^3 instead of 10 minutes but hey let me tell you about running blockade runners from Jita to Paragon Soul in the days before they had covops cloaks.
Also you're dead wrong about the highlighted. And I speak from personal experience: EVE was way more exciting and fascinating when it wasn't 7 minutes across.
There has in reply been a gigantic amount of mad because many people have - correctly - deduced that these changes will make it extremely difficult to do what they've been doing for the last 5 years. But changing what they've been doing is precisely the point. Every idiot crying about what a giant cockpunch it's going to be to fight someone 25 jumps away should instead be looking at the people 10 jumps away and thoughtfully fingering the trigger on his 425mm Railguns.
Everyone wants this, but the force projection nerf doesn't do it. The force projection nerf serves to (hopefully) create space for smaller groups to do things. I like it and I agree that it needs to happen. But it doesn't encourage us to reset our allies; we've put up with them for years, and my complaint is exactly that pitting punishing game mechanics against social ties is fucking terrible design. It just pisses people off and isn't likely to work. Instead, give us a good reason to reset our allies, and we will in a heartbeat. The quality of life improvements - occupancy based sov - are what will actually break up the blocs, because we won't need to hold huge swathes of space to make living in nullsec worthwhile (see: top down v. bottom up income); here the capital changes are necessary so small groups have a chance to not instantly get crushed. Unfortunately, putting the changes in this order just makes things wildly more annoying until the later fixes arrive, if they arrive at all (which I think we can safely be nervous about).
What makes you think occupancy-based sov of some kind isn't coming. How many times do I have to tell you that this power projection change is not the whole of the changes? This is just happening first because it's quicker to implement. The teams that are working on the new sov system have a much harder development job because the structures codebase is still fucked.
I mean if you want to insist on feeling miserable, I'm not going to try and stop you, but if you actually don't have any hope of positive change then why are you even posting here, let alone playing the game?
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited October 2014
V1m, I think you're missing our points. We all play EVE too, and we've all put up with CCP for years. Yes, I know what they told you. I know you were part of the CSM, I know you know Super Secret Squirrel things you can't tell us. Equally, those of us who have played EVE since 2007 (me, that's me) or even before are rightly wary of CCP when they try and make game feel changes, because they fuck them up more than they succeed, and they leave things half implemented all the time.
If our eternal cynicism annoys you, imagine how much your eternal optimism in the face of a CCP history pock marked with the asteroid strikes of their failure, annoys us.
What makes you think occupancy-based sov of some kind isn't coming. How many times do I have to tell you that this power projection change is not the whole of the changes? This is just happening first because it's quicker to implement. The teams that are working on the new sov system have a much harder development job because the structures codebase is still fucked.
I mean if you want to insist on feeling miserable, I'm not going to try and stop you, but if you actually don't have any hope of positive change then why are you even posting here, let alone playing the game?
I'm agreeing with the changes while pointing out some problems with them. For example, I brought up the issue that force projection nerfs without quality of life improvements mean that we still have to travel really far to actually attack anyone, and now it's going to suck. Your response is that I'm an idiot and that I should shoot my allies. I respond that I will happily shoot my allies once the thing designed to make me shoot my allies - quality of life improvements - is implemented. I think that's a fairly reasonable exchange on my part. I continue to disagree strongly that players should be beaten into breaking apart their blocs, rather than encouraged to do so. I'm actually really surprised that you seem to feel differently, but I might be misreading that as well.
Regarding optimism, being nervous is different than being hopeless. I mean, I absolutely believe that CCP will massively screw up one or more things along the way, but I do think they'll get there eventually.
There are plenty of idiots complaining about this, and if you want to flame them, go to the EVEO forums and go nuts. Reasonable complaints about these changes center around their impact on aspects of force projection that have not yet seen their corresponding changes - industry is a particularly egregious case, issues with player density / finding fights is another.
To be fair I do feel kind of odd being on the same side as Gnometank in this conversation.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
I think half the point being made here is that just because something is quicker to implement doesn't mean it is the change that should come first. Setting aside development times entirely, what specific order is ideal for the changes you know are coming (you can answer this in your head if the changes include items you know are not yet public.) IF any other change would be more beneficial to the game to implement first, then that change should come first, development time be damned. Everything else can wait.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
No one has ever accused me of "eternal optimism" before
I don't really know what to feel now?
Yeah, it's hard to have faith in other posters when you have to deal with the Internet Venereal Disease that is the EVE-O forums. :biggrin:
I think most of us are in agreement with what they're doing. They do really seem to have listened to the CSM (and others) on this one. I think my point was that they have a tricky balance beam to walk in making Eve "bigger" (in terms of travel) but also not making it so taxing that everyone just stays home and gets bored. I also realize that there's going to be more changes later that make "living/buying local" better and I'm totally looking forward to that!
(but the time between this nerf bat and that carrot is going to be pretty rough, I think)
For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
--Mark Twain
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
What if changing clone stations remotely had a timer that goes up as skill points go up? Sure the GSF could then swarm 1000 rifters, but I don't know that that could be called a draw back.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
They fixed the medclone thing. During your first 30 days, you can do it once every time you join a new corporation. After your first 30 days, you can do it once per year.
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DuriniaEvolved from Space PotatoesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2014
As always, some respond to change with humor:
TBD: 1 hour layover at each hop? Or you can make the first two flights in succession, then layover for 4 hours, then make the next two jumps and be stuck there for at least a day.
Durinia on
For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
--Mark Twain
They fixed the medclone thing. During your first 30 days, you can do it once every time you join a new corporation. After your first 30 days, you can do it once per year.
A bit clunky, but good enough
One by one all these concern-trolls about "OMG wat about the new playersssss!!!" will be addressed without backtracking on the core of this change.
I don't see this doing anything useful in the near term. We'll still have our space empire, our opponents will still need capitals to threaten it, and we'll still be obligated to deploy our capitals to counter theirs. It'll be the same thing but in slow motion.
I wish CCP had stuck to the 6-month development cycle a bit longer and saved this change to be delivered simultaneously with some of the other nullsec/sovereignty changes that they (hopefully) have planned.
It's not meant (in and of itself) to be a "near term" change. It's meant to provide the environmental conditions in which medium to long term change can occur.
The upcoming sov changes will most likely have a much more dramatic and immediate effect.
The combination, now - that will IMO be a nitro/glycerin type combo
It's not meant (in and of itself) to be a "near term" change. It's meant to provide the environmental conditions in which medium to long term change can occur.
You see it depends on what the definition of is is.
My main concern is, that (and take this with a grain of salt as I've been winning at EVE for ~3 years now) reading these changes at face value, with no knowledge of what's to come, it looks like CCP still tries to counter unwanted player behavior by making things more complicated and/or more expensive. And that never works, because people will jump through all the expensive, convoluted, un-fun loops if they deem it necessary. Up until they get fed up with it and leave the game, anyway.
Then again, I suppose making all logistics pilots quit is indeed one way to dissolve the big coalitions. But on the other hand, the big coalitions are best equipped to deal with this shit. They have the organizational ability to make even the most tortuous bullshit work to their advantage, and they are able to provide key (e.g. logistics) pilots with good enough rewards to make the work seem worthwhile.
CCP is notorious for implementing things half-way and then forgetting about it. They are a game developer with ADHD. That's where all this cynicism stems from.
I'll just gently remind you that ccp have spent the last 3.5 years doing little else but paying down that development debt
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DuriniaEvolved from Space PotatoesRegistered Userregular
Yes, to be honest, they've done quite well the last couple of years in terms of completion progress and quality of life improvements. They've got some actual processes in place that are returning good results. (Looking at you, ship balance/tiericide)
It's time for them to be a little more bold. Null, in particular has been pretty boring since the Halloween war ended.
For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
--Mark Twain
Oh I agree it's time for boldness. I think the risks they've taken with the Industry rework and now this shows that Seagull is fully prepared to sail through stormy seas.
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
V1m, I like EVE. You tell them CCP folks that.
All this talk about large scale stuff and changes, to me, is interesting to observe and I'm sure it tangentially affects me in some way, but to me EVE has never been about winning or getting things done. I'm too bad at it.
I like ratting. I like sitting in a fleet with two hundred other ships. I like pushing scan bubbles around. I like these things not so much on account of what they accomplish, but the overall... ambiance of the game.
The music is great, the backdrops are great, seeing light bounce off your ship is great, it's all just great. EVE, to me, is less about playing a game like StarCraft or Star Citizen and more about getting a brain massage.
Posts
Also, I think the cure is to kill.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
ima have to turn down the gain on my bullshit-o-meter because the number of "this will WRECK EVERYTHING AND ALSO WONT CHANGE ANYTHING" posts is quite overwheleming
My only real complaint is that there are still no benefits for holding less space, so at this point these changes are entirely punitive. It's still unquestionably better to have a large empire, it is just more painful to have it. We still have to travel just as far to fight people, only now it's going to be way more painful to do so. The idea of increasing gate use is great, but only if there are other people you're likely to come across, which still won't be true for the vast majority of nullsec. And EVE players are pretty good at risk aversion, and nullsec is still pretty worthless, so I don't imagine many actual invasions / awesome fights taking place directly as a result of this. Lots of smaller stuff, though, which will be ok (unless it is all interceptors all the time, which is a bit more likely).
I think lowsec / fw is going to be awesome, with tons more caps thrown around, and these changes are a complete win for that part of the game.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
-Nerf to bombing that in some way allows for more varied fleet compositions and less ISBombing (and I say that as a person that loves ISBoxer).
-Interdictor bubbles doing crazier shit, like web bubbles instead of point bubbles or bubbles that stop you from jumping through a gate or bubbles that apply heat to everything in them (idea courtesy of Effin). I kinda doubt this will happen, but maybe something neat will!
-Hictor points that let you more easily tackle enemy fleets without being suicide bait. Ideal scenario would be a 100km point that's also 5-10km AoE on the target but I know that I'm dreaming here. Edit: Also awesome, a hictor point that applies a huge-ass bump to the target.
In short, I have zero confidence CCP has any clue what they are doing, and isn't just throwing monkey shit at the wall to see what sticks. The fact that we are even having to see these kind of changes is because of massive failings of vision within CCP that ever allowed super caps to exist, or allowed caps to become a force projection mechanism. Anyone who understands basic cause and effect could have seen years ago that super caps being made as strong as they were, and caps in general being given a drive that can jump through entire regions of space with near impunity, was going to cause issues in the future. Now we get to watch CCP try and fix those failings of vision with ham fisted approaches to problems that really shouldn't exist if they had been doing their job three years ago.
Or a big increase in their explosion radius and/or add an explosion velocity stat (currently bombs ignore target speed). Or whtaever, really, anything that means you don't need 200k+ EHP and/or bubble immunity to have a hope of staying on the battlefield if your ship is bigger than a frigate.
Did CCP kill your dog or something? because it seems to me like they have a very clear vision of what they want to accomplish with these changes and Greyscale has been very open about those goals and has explained why they think these changes will promote or at least enable them.
There has in reply been a gigantic amount of mad because many people have - correctly - deduced that these changes will make it extremely difficult to do what they've been doing for the last 5 years. But changing what they've been doing is precisely the point. Every idiot crying about what a giant cockpunch it's going to be to fight someone 25 jumps away should instead be looking at the people 10 jumps away and thoughtfully fingering the trigger on his 425mm Railguns.
And as for what CCP want to change it to, blame me for that vision if you like, and I do mean me personally. because Greyscale is practically fucking quoting the things I said about how nullsec should be to Fozzie & him last January. That vision is strongly corrosive towards the current bloc meta.
You've met these people personally, so I get it, you think their super cool dudes with mad rude skills, and I respect that. I'm sure as people they are great, I'd love to have a beer with Grayscale. As a neutral observer who plays their game, they project an air of having absolutely no clue what they are doing as a company. Even if individual guys like Greyscale mostly know what's going on, their past release history gives absolutely no assurances that they won't fuck all this up to and we won't have Dooms Days Through Cyno's or Dominion 2.0 on our hands.
I can understand encouraging people to have a smaller footprint (and support it!), but the "fuedal lords that only interact with their neighbors" model is going to end up making the world feel awfully empty if the range and fatigue values are left as they currently stand. One of EVE's selling points is that you're on a single-shard world - but it won't really feel like it if travel is made too painful.
It has to happen, but they have a very tricky balance line to walk on the actual values.
--Mark Twain
Everyone wants this, but the force projection nerf doesn't do it. The force projection nerf serves to (hopefully) create space for smaller groups to do things. I like it and I agree that it needs to happen. But it doesn't encourage us to reset our allies; we've put up with them for years, and my complaint is exactly that pitting punishing game mechanics against social ties is fucking terrible design. It just pisses people off and isn't likely to work. Instead, give us a good reason to reset our allies, and we will in a heartbeat. The quality of life improvements - occupancy based sov - are what will actually break up the blocs, because we won't need to hold huge swathes of space to make living in nullsec worthwhile (see: top down v. bottom up income); here the capital changes are necessary so small groups have a chance to not instantly get crushed. Unfortunately, putting the changes in this order just makes things wildly more annoying until the later fixes arrive, if they arrive at all (which I think we can safely be nervous about).
You know you can just wait for 6 minutes and then jump again with no fatigue?
I mean I'm sure it'll be annoying for the JF guys that it takes then 45 minutes to get back from Jita with over 200,000m^3 instead of 10 minutes but hey let me tell you about running blockade runners from Jita to Paragon Soul in the days before they had covops cloaks.
Also you're dead wrong about the highlighted. And I speak from personal experience: EVE was way more exciting and fascinating when it wasn't 7 minutes across.
What makes you think occupancy-based sov of some kind isn't coming. How many times do I have to tell you that this power projection change is not the whole of the changes? This is just happening first because it's quicker to implement. The teams that are working on the new sov system have a much harder development job because the structures codebase is still fucked.
I mean if you want to insist on feeling miserable, I'm not going to try and stop you, but if you actually don't have any hope of positive change then why are you even posting here, let alone playing the game?
If our eternal cynicism annoys you, imagine how much your eternal optimism in the face of a CCP history pock marked with the asteroid strikes of their failure, annoys us.
I'm agreeing with the changes while pointing out some problems with them. For example, I brought up the issue that force projection nerfs without quality of life improvements mean that we still have to travel really far to actually attack anyone, and now it's going to suck. Your response is that I'm an idiot and that I should shoot my allies. I respond that I will happily shoot my allies once the thing designed to make me shoot my allies - quality of life improvements - is implemented. I think that's a fairly reasonable exchange on my part. I continue to disagree strongly that players should be beaten into breaking apart their blocs, rather than encouraged to do so. I'm actually really surprised that you seem to feel differently, but I might be misreading that as well.
Regarding optimism, being nervous is different than being hopeless. I mean, I absolutely believe that CCP will massively screw up one or more things along the way, but I do think they'll get there eventually.
There are plenty of idiots complaining about this, and if you want to flame them, go to the EVEO forums and go nuts. Reasonable complaints about these changes center around their impact on aspects of force projection that have not yet seen their corresponding changes - industry is a particularly egregious case, issues with player density / finding fights is another.
I don't really know what to feel now?
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
"I don't know why people ever, ever try to stop nerds from doing things. It's really the most incredible waste of time." - Tycho
Yeah, it's hard to have faith in other posters when you have to deal with the Internet Venereal Disease that is the EVE-O forums. :biggrin:
I think most of us are in agreement with what they're doing. They do really seem to have listened to the CSM (and others) on this one. I think my point was that they have a tricky balance beam to walk in making Eve "bigger" (in terms of travel) but also not making it so taxing that everyone just stays home and gets bored. I also realize that there's going to be more changes later that make "living/buying local" better and I'm totally looking forward to that!
(but the time between this nerf bat and that carrot is going to be pretty rough, I think)
Also, Endie wrote some :words: about deathcloning changes. Agree with him or not, reading Endie posts is always worth it:
http://www.endie.net/wordpress/2014/10/believe-greyscale-really-force-projection/
--Mark Twain
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
TBD: 1 hour layover at each hop? Or you can make the first two flights in succession, then layover for 4 hours, then make the next two jumps and be stuck there for at least a day.
--Mark Twain
A bit clunky, but good enough
One by one all these concern-trolls about "OMG wat about the new playersssss!!!" will be addressed without backtracking on the core of this change.
Let those who will quit over this do so.
I wish CCP had stuck to the 6-month development cycle a bit longer and saved this change to be delivered simultaneously with some of the other nullsec/sovereignty changes that they (hopefully) have planned.
The upcoming sov changes will most likely have a much more dramatic and immediate effect.
The combination, now - that will IMO be a nitro/glycerin type combo
You see it depends on what the definition of is is.
Then again, I suppose making all logistics pilots quit is indeed one way to dissolve the big coalitions. But on the other hand, the big coalitions are best equipped to deal with this shit. They have the organizational ability to make even the most tortuous bullshit work to their advantage, and they are able to provide key (e.g. logistics) pilots with good enough rewards to make the work seem worthwhile.
CCP is notorious for implementing things half-way and then forgetting about it. They are a game developer with ADHD. That's where all this cynicism stems from.
It's time for them to be a little more bold. Null, in particular has been pretty boring since the Halloween war ended.
--Mark Twain
All this talk about large scale stuff and changes, to me, is interesting to observe and I'm sure it tangentially affects me in some way, but to me EVE has never been about winning or getting things done. I'm too bad at it.
I like ratting. I like sitting in a fleet with two hundred other ships. I like pushing scan bubbles around. I like these things not so much on account of what they accomplish, but the overall... ambiance of the game.
The music is great, the backdrops are great, seeing light bounce off your ship is great, it's all just great. EVE, to me, is less about playing a game like StarCraft or Star Citizen and more about getting a brain massage.
With the occasional bit of electrotherapy.