The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
[Agents of SHIELD] S4E16 - What if... this thread reached 100 pages?
jdarksun
StrugglerCORegistered User regular
StrugglerCORegistered User regular
Marvel's Agents of SHIELD began as a paint-by-numbers NCIS-style show with a focus on the covert agency's attempt at keeping the world safe. Things went sideways when Hydra was revealed in Winter Soldier. Nothing's been the same since. SHIELD has been dismantled by the government and labeled a terrorist organization. Fury has tasked Coulson with reforming SHIELD from the ground up. Oh yeah, he was resurrected and might be going crazy.
Phil Coulson (Clark Gregg): Murdered by Loki and resurrected by the THAITI project (Aliens Guy: "Aliens"). He's the new director, appointed by Nick Fury himself. Don't fuck with his team or he will end you, politely. Now with cyborg hand!
Melinda May (Ming-Na Wen): SHIELD elite veteran who says little and packs a big punch. Nicknamed The Cavalry when she rescued an entire SHIELD team from a powered individual. Took a vacation after the nastiness at Afterlife. Currently on vacation, it is unknown if she will return.
Daisy Johnson (aka Skye) (Chloe Bennet): She's grown up from season 1, no longer the naive hacker living in a van but a competent SHIELD agent... and Inhuman. Evolved into a living weapon after exposure to Terrigen Mist, Daisy has the ability to project vibrations powerful enough to stop bullets - and level mountains. Probably the most badass person in the room. Bears the name and powers of Quake from the comics.
Fitz (Iain De Caestecker): Technological genius who suffered brain damage when Ward attempted to kill him and Simmons by dropping them in a sealed crate into the middle of the ocean. Mostly recovered with the help of Mack and a shitload of therapy. Loves prosciutto and mozzarella sandwiches with pesto aioli. Also Jemma Simmons.
Simmons (Elizabeth Henstridge): Genius biologist who originally wasn't very good at lying, but got a lot better at it after she infiltrated both Hydra and "Real"SHIELD. Swallowed by the obelisk; whereabouts unknown.
Grant Ward (Brett Dalton): A spy sent by Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD. Captured, escaped, captured again, escaped again. Kidnapped Bobbi and tortured her at length in order to rehabilitate the damaged Agent 33. Left to rebuild Hydra after Hunter tricked him into killing her.
Bobbi Morse (Adrianne Palicki): An elite SHIELD operative skilled in deception and combat. Worked undercover at Hydra. Abducted and tortured by Ward; currently in recovery. Bears the name, physical similarity, and fighting style of Mockingbird from the comics.
Al "Mac" MacKenzie (Henry Simmons): Big, burly, stern-faced... and as smart with technology as he is emotionally intelligent. Enjoys lightly taunting Hunter about his ex and helping to rehabilitate everyone who needs it. Which is everyone. Fond of axes.
Billy Koenig, Level 6 S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and one of the few men trusted by Nick Fury to guard secret SHIELD bases. Billy was stationed at The Playground, an old SSR base presumably in Europe. Billy likes to play Call of Duty during down time.
Sam Koenig, Level 6 S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and one of the few men trusted by Nick Fury to guard secret SHIELD bases. Sam was a bit more of a field agent than his other brothers, helping Coulson to rescue Raina from Hydra operatives. When Coulson took the team into the Kree city beneath San Juan, Puerto Rico, Coulson told Sam to head to The Playground and active Theta Protocol if things went poorly.
SHIELD Memorial Wall
Eric Koenig, Level 6 S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and one of the few men trusted by Nick Fury to guard secret SHIELD bases. Eric was stationed at Providence, a facility hidden in Canada. Fond of lanyards. Murdered by Ward during Ward's attempt to kidnap Skye for Hydra.
Antoine Triplett (BJ Britt): SHIELD agent and grandson of a Howling Commando. Killed trying to save Daisy during her exposure to Terrigen Mist.
Raina (aka Quillsandra), previously known as the Girl in the Flower Dress. An Inhuman like DaisySkye, Raina's powers include moving really fast and collecting rings. Killed by Jiaying (Daisy's mother) while attempting to warn the Inhumans of Afterlife of Jiaying's intended betrayal.
Robert Gonzales (Edward James Olmos), the face of "Real SHIELD", an unauthorized SHIELD offshoot operating without Nick Fury's knowledge or blessing. Opposed Coulson's SHIELD for a brief time. Killed by Jiaying to incite conflict between SHIELD and the Inhumans of Afterlife.
Marvel's Agents of SHIELD has been picked up for Season 4!
PLEASE NOTE, REGARDING SPOILERS - Tag anything that applies to episodes less than a week old, and obviously tag anything from upcoming episodes.
jdarksun on
+7
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Spoilers for 3.09
The original fridging was, of course, when a male hero's girlfriend of little characterization got brutally murdered and stuffed into a fridge, solely as motivation/character development for said male hero. However, the term has evolved from that to a general description for any female character, no matter how developed, being sacrificed for a male character's development/motivation. Now, that isn't inherently a bad thing. Secondary characters exist to facilitate primary characters' story. The issue really stems from the fact that media has long been focused on male characters, so when this shit happens, it happened to female characters almost exclusively. As such, it became important for people to bring up this issue, because it WAS ridiculously common. And we're not out of the woods yet on it either.
So, why isn't this exactly a fridging? Ros had reasons for people to want to kill her beyond being Phil's love interest. HOWEVER, they make it abundantly clear she was absolutely targeted to piss Phil off too, and really we need to dig into Story versus Writing. Storywise, yes it makes sense for Malick to want to take out Ros. Absolutely. Writing-wise, however, there's nothing written in stone that she had to die because of it. They could have written it that Malick tries to have her killed and she survives; or she saw it coming and was one step ahead, or Malick could have not have found out yet. Do not confuse "it made sense she died" with "she had to die." Additionally, she could have been killed in a number of ways, but both Ward and the writing make sure it's RIGHT in front of Phil's face. (Remember, she was planning on going into work the next day; they could have quickly and quietly killed her there.)
The story and writing really demonstrate that the primary reason Ros died was to motivate Coulson, with a little covering of the ass by bringing up that she could work against Malick's operation. So like I said, it wasn't a fridging, but just barely.
The real question is, is this particular event a problem? Does Agents have a habit of doing this? People bring up Banks, but Banks wasn't killed to motivate anyone. He died as an obstacle; a foe. Ward went after Andrew to piss off May, but Andrew lived, still lives, and will continue to live as a villain it looks like. His story will continue. Agent 33 died... to basically make Ward want to build a new Hydra so he'd have something to do in Season 3. Hunter would have gotten killed to piss off Bobbi, but Bobbi took the bullet for him instead and they both survived.
I'm actually having trouble thinking of any male character who was killed off to motivate a female one, now that I actually type all this out. Not what I expected going into it.
Donnie Gill in S2.
They brought him back solely for Simmons and for Skye, for Simmons to show she could lie to Hydra and for Skye to show she could do the job.
EDIT: So, not exactly the same, but his character was a plot device for two female main characters.
It might, after about 45 minutes. Or more. :P
I mean, so did
If this were a movie though, I'd be expecting everyone at the end
More Appliance Repair (Latest ep, 3.09):
This was not "writers need to motivate the hero to action". This was "villain needs to motivate the hero to make a mistake".
It doesn't excuse the fact that the trope exists, and we should always turn a critical eye toward our media and the landscape in general. This one? I think it's perfectly fine as is, and rather clever to boot.
This is ignoring external factors, too, like "actress might have other work and didn't want to stay on" or "wasn't budget to add another permanent cast member", but that's all speculation and shouldn't actually be applied to any critical review of the writing. It's just worth noting that sometimes, creative decisions are molded by production necessities.
Like whether or not the action the male character takes is good or is playing into the hands of the also-male villain, it doesn't negate the fact that a female character was put on the pyre to facilitate that development. That's what gets people riled up. Ironically, you're putting the importance here on what the male character does rather than the what happened to the woman.
This differs from e.g.) Jenny Calendar in that the character wasn't (at least, not obviously) created specifically to be killed to weigh on Giles. That was something that happened in a more organic-feeling way over a longer period of time.
I don't buy the idea that this is just "you can't kill a woman or it gets accused of fridging". Lets say it was Jemma, instead. She's had multiple seasons and character arcs to grow in. She wasn't written specifically as tragedy bait from the get-go. That feels qualitatively different, to me.
I think it's just the MO for Ward. Piss him off, and he will go after your loved ones, because he is just that fucked up.
Second, Undead Scotsman makes a good point about story vs writing upthread. I would add that there is also a difference between incidental story and thematic story, or that which is in the story and that what the story is about. That Malick had a reason to get rid of Rosalind is true, but it is incidental because it is not he who does the actual killing or he who faces the wrath of Coulson. The conflict between Malick and Rosalind is side-story, it is not what it is about.
Much like the character development, the reason for the murder is thematically irrelevant. You can have a whole book of back story and elaborate reasons for a death, but if the show treats it as mostly a reason for character A to get mad at character B then it doesn't matter. With the death of Banks(?) and Coulson diving straight past Powers Boothe, the show seems uninterested in having the point of this death be anything other than "You killed my girlfriend!" character development.
(Another associated issue is the casual nature of the death, vs a more heroic or at least tragic or highlighted death. Rosalind is just shot out of the blue, and then the episode moves on. Just leave her body and skip the grieving or effect a death has, let's get to the revenging part.)
It could be worse, and I don't think this instance is that bad or anything, but it seems kind of a waste to ignore the potential development of Coulson as a person, an older female character, and how she and her subordinate deal with realizing their operation has been high-jacked. Especially considering that Coulson and co. had the same thing happen. But no, let's go with another good reason to kill Ward.
it's not super egregious but I think it's fairly clear that Ros was created to be a love interest for Coulson who gets killed off. That was her narrative role in the only arc she was given. The same isn't really true for Andrew
I love that they hinted Ward may have also hit May's dad, but didn't explicitly say yes or no. Hell, it probably wasn't him... but maybe it was?
Second you're confusing two levels. The writers and the universe. The writers still need to motivate the hero to action, they just motivate him to take a wrong action. The issue of treating the death of a (female) character as mere means to an end still remains. To get from point A (hero relaxing, enjoying life) to point B (hero hastily attacks villain) they kill her.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
Hasn't that been talked to death?
I'm pretty sure he shot it while it was on the candles.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
It's entirely possible that she only came into existence because someone said "let's kill a chick so Coulson gets a sad," but if so, they his it really well.
I think a lot of the grievance around her death is specifically because she was a really interesting and well fleshed out character, which itself is inconsistent with the whole fridge thing.
I mean, you're free to talk about whatever you want. I think this is an interesting topic, personally, but don't feel obligated to engage if you don't
It was in keeping with the dude who stuffed Kyle's girlfriend into a fridge's character to do that. That wasn't the problem with the storyline
Certainly it's even more galling when the female character has no character beyond dying and motivation the male character; but you can still have a well developed female character and have her get put into a fridge.
Like I can't think of anything she really *did* in the story other than: spar with Coulson, flirt with Coulson, fuck Coulson, and die in Coulson's arms. She was seriously the least interesting part of the season to me because other than that, she wasn't really given anything to do in and of herself. I had really high hopes for her getting out from being defined in terms of her relation to Coulson and becoming the MCU's Abigail Brand.
So just my opinion but to me she feels pretty close to the classic female accessory created to be killed off to further a male's story trope.
This is pretty strongly contrastable with Jenny Calendar, who has a presence in Buffy plots that stands full independent of Giles.
He did. It was an improvised flash-bang, essentially.
3DS: 1521-4165-5907
PS3: KayleSolo
Live: Kayle Solo
WiiU: KayleSolo
So like... a startlepop.
The whole thing also works really well as plot point for Coulson.
He is going to have to make a decision if he wants to keep being a spy, or if he wants to have a life.
I think this is also a step towards him removing himself from director permanently.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
Anger, actually.
The people in Bargaining stage are talking about Kree blood and stasis chambers and TAHITI.
No, I'm pretty sure that's the denial stage!
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
Nah, denial is "Well, we aren't 100% sure she's dead" and "where's the body?"
I'm loathe to even ask the question, but I really don't know that the discussion can continue in any meaningful fashion without doing so:
I was more thinking of a meta perspective.
The 5 stages of grief for watchers of Whedon-family shows:
1. Denial: "What?! Oh no they didn't!"
2. Anger: "GOD DAMMIT, WHEDONS!"
3. Bargaining: "This death was totally unjustified! It's just a cheap trick and I'm mad at the writers for not being better than that!"
4. Depression: "What's the point of caring for any character ever again? They'll just kill them off anyway..."
5. Acceptance: "Why the hell did they cancel this show, it was the best thing that ever happened to TV!"
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
Bargaining is about trying to work your way out of it. Being mad at the writers is just anger. Denial is about working out how what we saw was wrong.
The problem identified by fridging is the same problem identified by the Bechdel Test - it denotes cases where the female characters are not allowed to exist as characters in their own right, but only in relation to other (usually male) characters, or worse, as objects entirely. That the woman dies is not the problem. It's that she dies as a non-character, with no personality, motivation, agency, etc. of her own.
The solution to this problem is not to never kill a female character in order to motivate a male character. That's like solving racism by removing everyone's skin color. The solution to this problem is to stop making shallow characters. In particular, it's to stop making shallow female characters who only die to motivate a male protagonist.
Frankly, I think this show has gone out of its way to represent Ros as a fantastic character in her own right, with her own life, her own motivations, her own responsibilities, her own personality, her own relationships, etc. etc. etc. all of which exist outside of Coulson's or even SHIELD's orbits.
Jenny Calendar was dull as dirt, damsel at least once, given an adorable shoehorned side plot, then murdered literally for the sole purpose of motivating/destroying a male hero
But that's ok!
Somehow
I'm fairly sure, at this point, that you'd have to be killing a multi-season veteran of the show to avoid having somebody shake your icebox
Which I don't want?
Oh, and Tripp was killed literally for tragedy points, whether he had the 'agency' of nobly sacrificing himself for the strangely-not-white characters. But not fridging
There's problematic writing, and then there's calling out a trope like you've got a vocal tick
and I'm the asshole who made a joke about it
He left the body the way he did out of pure cruelty, but fucking with Giles was not the point. Ending the threat of the soul-curse was the point.
-edit-
This is an example of why filtering your analyses through tvtropes is not the best idea. You wind up putting the trope you want to bang on in front of the analysis and you get facts wrong.
And I gave literally zero shits at the time
Because you literally cannot kill off a side character without a contingent of fans screaming about a major household appliance
It's deeply, deeply obnoxious, even to somebody who noticed the problem years before we were gifted with a catchphrase to describe it, that people are going to shit down their pantsleg every single time a something like this happens in a story
I've gotten to the point where I can pick out actors and characters who are toast, the moment they walk on screen, across various shows/movies/games
Hero/Heroine's love interest is always going to end up in peril, and often die
Various side characters are doomed, it is known. Like, always. Forever.
And saying that "it might make sense that this character died, on a narrative level, but it's totes not ok because (TROPE)..." is... wow
But again, killing a female character to motivate a male character isn't a bad thing in itself (like I said, supporting characters exist to facilitate primary characters) it's only when taken in context of it being ridiculously common in media, while the opposite isn't, is that it becomes a problem.