Amusingly, what Ward did to Andrew was exactly an attempted fridging - specifically trying to kill a character for no other reason than to motivate another character.
I think it's just the MO for Ward. Piss him off, and he will go after your loved ones, because he is just that fucked up.
to me the difference is given that Andrew predates the current storyline, it doesn't feel like the only reason he was created was to die on May's conscience
it's not super egregious but I think it's fairly clear that Ros was created to be a love interest for Coulson who gets killed off. That was her narrative role in the only arc she was given. The same isn't really true for Andrew
Andrew has been around longer, but Ros served a lot more purpose than just a romantic interest to be offed. She introduced a new rival agency to the show, was an integral part of the ongoing storyline about how to deal with inhumans, ably provided a sympathetic voice to the other side. All this while serving as a foil for Coulson in ways that had nothing to do with romance.
It's entirely possible that she only came into existence because someone said "let's kill a chick so Coulson gets a sad," but if so, they his it really well.
I think a lot of the grievance around her death is specifically because she was a really interesting and well fleshed out character, which itself is inconsistent with the whole fridge thing.
Man I guess I just do not think she was the well-fleshed out or well used in the story.
Like I can't think of anything she really *did* in the story other than: spar with Coulson, flirt with Coulson, fuck Coulson, and die in Coulson's arms. She was seriously the least interesting part of the season to me because other than that, she wasn't really given anything to do in and of herself. I had really high hopes for her getting out from being defined in terms of her relation to Coulson and becoming the MCU's Abigail Brand.
So just my opinion but to me she feels pretty close to the classic female accessory created to be killed off to further a male's story trope.
This is pretty strongly contrastable with Jenny Calendar, who has a presence in Buffy plots that stands full independent of Giles.
I'm loathe to even ask the question, but I really don't know that the discussion can continue in any meaningful fashion without doing so:
People have defined their interpretation of what makes a death a fridge-death fairly well (given some room for personal interpretation, as these things tend not to be that clear cut.) Would a few people please describe to me the qualifications for a non-fridge female death? What steps must be taken by the writers to avoid it being classified as such?
For me, it's pretty simple.
"Fridging" is a common name for a possible symptom of a more core problem, the core problem being that female characters are more likely to be stripped of agency than male characters.
What needs to be done is fairly simple: give female characters agency when you kill them.
Picture Ros' death this way:
She goes into work as planned. She speaks to Powers Boothe. They have a tense scene. SHIELD has her bugged (with her knowledge), so Coulson is listening to everything. She realizes that Powers Boothe probably knows that she knows. The meeting ends abruptly, and Coulson urges her to get out. She's in agreement. She has a few tense moments passing people, and then she definitely has someone coming after her. She pulls a gun. The telekinetic guy rips it from her hands and points it at her. But she notes that they're still in her facility, and she yells out a lockdown code. A steel shutter comes down between them, which we immediately see start to deform (from bullets, metalbending powers, getting hit, whatever). Coulson urges her to get to the roof, that they'll have a jet for extraction. She heads into a stairwell and starts climbing. She gets to the top of the stairs and there's Ward. He tells her to tell Coulson that his extraction plans are way too predictable. She grimaces, and she and Ward talk. Ward makes it clear that Hydra considers her very useful, and soon she'll be happy to comply. Ros tells Ward that Coulson warned her about that particular piece of Hydra tech, and that she came prepared with old fashioned spy tech. Coulson insists that he's going to get her out of there. She basically says nope, not going to take that chance. She collapses, dead from biting down on a poison capsule once she'd realized that there was no way out.
Coulson and Ward have a conversation and you end up in about the same place. Except then you don't have Ward inexplicably not killing Couslon, you have a demonstration of Ward's competence, you have a S2 reference, you put the metalbender guy to use some more, and most importantly you show her showing agency before she dies.
I'm being a bit reductionist here, but since the goal is to define the line where it becomes problematic:
You're saying that it's ok for writers to kill female characters if they commit suicide, it can never be by someone else's hand. That's the line you're drawing.
For me, the line is about agency. Was it there or not?
A person can commit suicide with agency. And don't get hung up on the suicide part - if Ward had shot her trying to escape in my scenario, she would have died with agency there too because she was actively trying to do something about her fate when she died.
So then:
No female can be killed without knowing it's coming first. It can't be a surprise.
It would have been OK if Ward had called Ros first and said "I have you in my crosshairs. Say goodbye to Phil," then she shoots her when she tries to dive behind cover.
That's not at all what I'm saying.
Popular fiction has a tendency to reduce women to objects, and to strip them of their agency. The problem isn't that it happens. The problem is that it happens frequently, and that it has an overwhelming tendency to happen to women rather than men. Women die so that men have a reason to do things, but men die heroically. Fridging is that tendency at its most obvious and extreme - a helpless woman is killed in a domestic (re: "safe") space in order to provide a man with motivation to take a given action.
I'm not saying that it should never happen. But it's something that content creators need to be aware of.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Amusingly, what Ward did to Andrew was exactly an attempted fridging - specifically trying to kill a character for no other reason than to motivate another character.
I think it's just the MO for Ward. Piss him off, and he will go after your loved ones, because he is just that fucked up.
to me the difference is given that Andrew predates the current storyline, it doesn't feel like the only reason he was created was to die on May's conscience
it's not super egregious but I think it's fairly clear that Ros was created to be a love interest for Coulson who gets killed off. That was her narrative role in the only arc she was given. The same isn't really true for Andrew
Andrew has been around longer, but Ros served a lot more purpose than just a romantic interest to be offed. She introduced a new rival agency to the show, was an integral part of the ongoing storyline about how to deal with inhumans, ably provided a sympathetic voice to the other side. All this while serving as a foil for Coulson in ways that had nothing to do with romance.
It's entirely possible that she only came into existence because someone said "let's kill a chick so Coulson gets a sad," but if so, they his it really well.
I think a lot of the grievance around her death is specifically because she was a really interesting and well fleshed out character, which itself is inconsistent with the whole fridge thing.
Man I guess I just do not think she was the well-fleshed out or well used in the story.
Like I can't think of anything she really *did* in the story other than: spar with Coulson, flirt with Coulson, fuck Coulson, and die in Coulson's arms. She was seriously the least interesting part of the season to me because other than that, she wasn't really given anything to do in and of herself. I had really high hopes for her getting out from being defined in terms of her relation to Coulson and becoming the MCU's Abigail Brand.
So just my opinion but to me she feels pretty close to the classic female accessory created to be killed off to further a male's story trope.
This is pretty strongly contrastable with Jenny Calendar, who has a presence in Buffy plots that stands full independent of Giles.
I'm loathe to even ask the question, but I really don't know that the discussion can continue in any meaningful fashion without doing so:
People have defined their interpretation of what makes a death a fridge-death fairly well (given some room for personal interpretation, as these things tend not to be that clear cut.) Would a few people please describe to me the qualifications for a non-fridge female death? What steps must be taken by the writers to avoid it being classified as such?
For me, it's pretty simple.
"Fridging" is a common name for a possible symptom of a more core problem, the core problem being that female characters are more likely to be stripped of agency than male characters.
What needs to be done is fairly simple: give female characters agency when you kill them.
Picture Ros' death this way:
She goes into work as planned. She speaks to Powers Boothe. They have a tense scene. SHIELD has her bugged (with her knowledge), so Coulson is listening to everything. She realizes that Powers Boothe probably knows that she knows. The meeting ends abruptly, and Coulson urges her to get out. She's in agreement. She has a few tense moments passing people, and then she definitely has someone coming after her. She pulls a gun. The telekinetic guy rips it from her hands and points it at her. But she notes that they're still in her facility, and she yells out a lockdown code. A steel shutter comes down between them, which we immediately see start to deform (from bullets, metalbending powers, getting hit, whatever). Coulson urges her to get to the roof, that they'll have a jet for extraction. She heads into a stairwell and starts climbing. She gets to the top of the stairs and there's Ward. He tells her to tell Coulson that his extraction plans are way too predictable. She grimaces, and she and Ward talk. Ward makes it clear that Hydra considers her very useful, and soon she'll be happy to comply. Ros tells Ward that Coulson warned her about that particular piece of Hydra tech, and that she came prepared with old fashioned spy tech. Coulson insists that he's going to get her out of there. She basically says nope, not going to take that chance. She collapses, dead from biting down on a poison capsule once she'd realized that there was no way out.
Coulson and Ward have a conversation and you end up in about the same place. Except then you don't have Ward inexplicably not killing Couslon, you have a demonstration of Ward's competence, you have a S2 reference, you put the metalbender guy to use some more, and most importantly you show her showing agency before she dies.
I'm being a bit reductionist here, but since the goal is to define the line where it becomes problematic:
You're saying that it's ok for writers to kill female characters if they commit suicide, it can never be by someone else's hand. That's the line you're drawing.
For me, the line is about agency. Was it there or not?
A person can commit suicide with agency. And don't get hung up on the suicide part - if Ward had shot her trying to escape in my scenario, she would have died with agency there too because she was actively trying to do something about her fate when she died.
So then:
No female can be killed without knowing it's coming first. It can't be a surprise.
It would have been OK if Ward had called Ros first and said "I have you in my crosshairs. Say goodbye to Phil," then she shoots her when she tries to dive behind cover.
That's not at all what I'm saying.
Popular fiction has a tendency to reduce women to objects, and to strip them of their agency. The problem isn't that it happens. The problem is that it happens frequently, and that it has an overwhelming tendency to happen to women rather than men. Women die so that men have a reason to do things, but men die heroically. Fridging is that tendency at its most obvious and extreme - a helpless woman is killed in a domestic (re: "safe") space in order to provide a man with motivation to take a given action.
I'm not saying that it should never happen. But it's something that content creators need to be aware of.
I agree 100%, but that's why I'm asking for the "rules". If we're going to limit what artists are allowed to make, we should stop being ambiguous about it and just state clearly what they are and are not allowed to do with their creations.
And that's the rub, isn't it? It seems impossible to get individuals to state what their own personal "rules" are, and it is definitely impossible to ever get broad agreement. Which is what these discussions always turn into: a collection of individuals with various interpretations arguing with or against the rest of the group with no real understanding of their own criteria, let alone the criteria of others.
I acknowledge the societal problem of it happening more frequently to women than men, but I also don't believe that any artist should let that prevent them from killing off a character if they feel it is the best thing for their story. If it's a compelling and well written story, the audience will be able to tell. I don't find this particular death problematic, and none of the arguments I've seen is really shifting my opinion in this case. I'm glad we've discussed it, I have learned some new things and been shown some new viewpoints, and that'll factor in next time it comes up in another story.
I also want to make a note that I disagree with your point about agency. One of the most oft-repeated things you hear in real life after the loss of a loved one are phrases like "taken too soon" or "died too young". We all like to believe that we have complete agency in our own lives, but death is one of those aspects in which we almost never do. If we accept that the reason we tell stories, even fantastical ones, is to examine ourselves and our role in the greater scheme of things, then we can't ignore that sometimes, good people (characters) will die with no agency at all, and it's unfair and it's shitty but allows us as artists and consumers to explore stories about those close to the deceased and how they choose to handle those feelings of grief and helplessness.
Watching someone you care about die, with them having no agency to prevent it is, unfortunately, very very human, indeed.
i don't think shadowhope is saying there needs to be rules or anything. i think he's just saying it's trope-y and low quality and he likes it less for so and so reasons. if it were more well thought out and less fridge-y, he'd like it more.
personally, i liked
roz's death
more the way he wrote it than the way it actually happened in the show.
Oooooookay, I think the fridge discussion has generated about all the useful discussion it's going to get, so let's return to talking about other parts of the show.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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Toxic ToysAre you really taking my advice?Really?Registered Userregular
Dammit, I can't stop reading those goddamn imgur caption things.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Dammit, I can't stop reading those goddamn imgur caption things.
I went through the first ten last night, which was nine more than I'd intended to read before bed.
I'm realising that Elizabeth Henstridge a) is the only person on the show who smiles regularly, and b) emotes so hard with her face (at least in season 1). Just going through the stills, pretty much every shot of her has her expressing some REALLY HARD-FELT emotion on her face, when most of the other actors are kinda numb-faced in at least half the shots.
Oooooookay, I think the fridge discussion has generated about all the useful discussion it's going to get, so let's return to talking about other parts of the show.
*hugs*
So, as i asked earlier, what happens next?? Can the new Bus get there in time? Do you think the Inhuman Assault team will be effective?
Well, Fitz was probably forcing the curse to mostly focus on him, thereby leaving Simmons able to smile. Also: I never considered THIS possibility. I like it!
Well, Fitz was probably forcing the curse to mostly focus on him, thereby leaving Simmon able to smile. Also: I never considered THIS possibility. I like it!
I love the imgur thing's "Simmons is randomly a serial killer" meme. I want a spinoff series where all the characters have their imgur personalities. It'd be like an MCU Archer.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
I love the imgur thing's "Simmons is randomly a serial killer" meme. I want a spinoff series where all the characters have their imgur personalities. It'd be like an MCU Archer.
Agents of SHIELD has done really well in building half-season long arcs, where everything ends up connecting and stuff happens.
But: I think that I'm getting to a point where I'd like a few one or two episode arcs between the big arcs. Just one or two at a time. Show ten episodes, then do two stand-alone episodes and then ten episodes. I'm don't want to remove the long arcs. Just add the occaisional episode between arcs.
Shadowhope on
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
One of its main powers is body-jumping. That's why Hydra keeps sending it sacrifices. The people Hydra sends as blood sacrifices are sent to be new hosts for it. That's part of why "Will" kept Simmons alive - the current host was still doing OK, it didn't need a new host yet. "Will" is going to die soon, but the Inhuman is going to jump to someone new. The main candidates for the new host are obvious: Coulson, Ward, Fitz, and Simmons herself. If Ward, we get a super-powered Ward in play. If Coulson, we have an evil director in play. If Fitz or Simmons, we have a huge amount of angst in play, and the joy of watching one of them go evil, while the other works frantically for a way to save the afflicted person, and maybe a few "I'd never give up on you" lines.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
One of its main powers is body-jumping. That's why Hydra keeps sending it sacrifices. The people Hydra sends as blood sacrifices are sent to be new hosts for it. That's part of why "Will" kept Simmons alive - the current host was still doing OK, it didn't need a new host yet. "Will" is going to die soon, but the Inhuman is going to jump to someone new. The main candidates for the new host are obvious: Coulson, Ward, Fitz, and Simmons herself. If Ward, we get a super-powered Ward in play. If Coulson, we have an evil director in play. If Fitz or Simmons, we have a huge amount of angst in play, and the joy of watching one of them go evil, while the other works frantically for a way to save the afflicted person, and maybe a few "I'd never give up on you" lines.
What's the deal with the Astronaut body and the one gunshot?
Well, Simmons seems unlikely. Fitz is protected by the curse (only room enough for 1 Fuck My Life status effect). Coulson's hand probably protects him. So this is how Fitz kills Ward. It then backfires when his corpse is reused.
Ward would be a cool way to get the catharsis of someone killing his ass while keeping the actor and some semblance of Wardiness on the show.
But I am anti anything that makes Ward go away for good.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
The Hebrew word מות doesn't just mean death. It can also mean the personification of death. And isn't just "Maweth," it can also be "Mavet" or "Mot," the name of an ancient Middle Eastern god of death. Mot ruled over Sheol, the underworld, a decayed dry desert. He infected people with disease and devoured them, but he could never be satiated.
+5
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Agents of SHIELD has done really well in building half-season long arcs, where everything ends up connecting and stuff happens.
But: I think that I'm getting to a point where I'd like a few one or two episode arcs between the big arcs. Just one or two at a time. Show ten episodes, then do two stand-alone episodes and then ten episodes. I'm don't want to remove the long arcs. Just add the occaisional episode between arcs.
Make them more like Bzzt and less like every other episode.
Its funny. Its generally said that the show got better once it ditched the monster-of-the-week format... and now we'd like to see it come back. I agree with ya.
One of its main powers is body-jumping. That's why Hydra keeps sending it sacrifices. The people Hydra sends as blood sacrifices are sent to be new hosts for it. That's part of why "Will" kept Simmons alive - the current host was still doing OK, it didn't need a new host yet. "Will" is going to die soon, but the Inhuman is going to jump to someone new. The main candidates for the new host are obvious: Coulson, Ward, Fitz, and Simmons herself. If Ward, we get a super-powered Ward in play. If Coulson, we have an evil director in play. If Fitz or Simmons, we have a huge amount of angst in play, and the joy of watching one of them go evil, while the other works frantically for a way to save the afflicted person, and maybe a few "I'd never give up on you" lines.
Good thing the show just showed a way to put someone in suspended animation.
I'm not so sure Hydra was sending sacrifices to the creature, as much as it kept sending sacrifices to science figuring eventually someone would figure out a way back if their life depended on it.
MWO: Adamski
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
I'm not so sure Hydra was sending sacrifices to the creature, as much as it kept sending sacrifices to science figuring eventually someone would figure out a way back if their life depended on it.
And eventually, that plan worked. It's just that it wasn't a Hydra agent that figured it out.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
My general hope is that the Inhuman does not do any possession, and certainly does not possess Ward.
Ward's a good character as he is. He doesn't need a significant personality shift, he already owns most if not all of the scenes he's in. Having an arc where he's possessed, and then having another arc about the damage to his psyche of being possessed would probably just diminish him.
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
edited December 2015
I am also hoping there isn't any possession of our main characters, but I can definitely see it happening. I've already been turned around to the idea that Will is actually the imprisoned inhuman.
I'm sure we'll have a shocking mid-season cliffhanger too. It'll be the first time during this series I get to experience it; I watched S2 on Netflix, so I got to see what happened after Tripp got petrified and Daisy got inhuman'd almost immediately.
Posts
That's not at all what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that it should never happen. But it's something that content creators need to be aware of.
I agree 100%, but that's why I'm asking for the "rules". If we're going to limit what artists are allowed to make, we should stop being ambiguous about it and just state clearly what they are and are not allowed to do with their creations.
I acknowledge the societal problem of it happening more frequently to women than men, but I also don't believe that any artist should let that prevent them from killing off a character if they feel it is the best thing for their story. If it's a compelling and well written story, the audience will be able to tell. I don't find this particular death problematic, and none of the arguments I've seen is really shifting my opinion in this case. I'm glad we've discussed it, I have learned some new things and been shown some new viewpoints, and that'll factor in next time it comes up in another story.
I also want to make a note that I disagree with your point about agency. One of the most oft-repeated things you hear in real life after the loss of a loved one are phrases like "taken too soon" or "died too young". We all like to believe that we have complete agency in our own lives, but death is one of those aspects in which we almost never do. If we accept that the reason we tell stories, even fantastical ones, is to examine ourselves and our role in the greater scheme of things, then we can't ignore that sometimes, good people (characters) will die with no agency at all, and it's unfair and it's shitty but allows us as artists and consumers to explore stories about those close to the deceased and how they choose to handle those feelings of grief and helplessness.
Watching someone you care about die, with them having no agency to prevent it is, unfortunately, very very human, indeed.
personally, i liked
No. Next week is the Winter Finale. You get one more still!
I like Hunter's explanation about how SHIELD works.
My Backloggery
I went through the first ten last night, which was nine more than I'd intended to read before bed.
I'm realising that Elizabeth Henstridge a) is the only person on the show who smiles regularly, and b) emotes so hard with her face (at least in season 1). Just going through the stills, pretty much every shot of her has her expressing some REALLY HARD-FELT emotion on her face, when most of the other actors are kinda numb-faced in at least half the shots.
Edit: obligatory
http://i.imgur.com/WrpRn1u.jpg
*hugs*
http://i.imgur.com/YKN9lpK.jpg
Man thats cold! Poor guy went 15 years....
E09 chatterL
Wow.
Rude.
Why I fear the ocean.
But: I think that I'm getting to a point where I'd like a few one or two episode arcs between the big arcs. Just one or two at a time. Show ten episodes, then do two stand-alone episodes and then ten episodes. I'm don't want to remove the long arcs. Just add the occaisional episode between arcs.
What is the secret ingredient in the mid-season finale?
The secret ingredient is...
:hydra:!
Theory about the banished inhuman:
One of its main powers is body-jumping. That's why Hydra keeps sending it sacrifices. The people Hydra sends as blood sacrifices are sent to be new hosts for it. That's part of why "Will" kept Simmons alive - the current host was still doing OK, it didn't need a new host yet. "Will" is going to die soon, but the Inhuman is going to jump to someone new. The main candidates for the new host are obvious: Coulson, Ward, Fitz, and Simmons herself. If Ward, we get a super-powered Ward in play. If Coulson, we have an evil director in play. If Fitz or Simmons, we have a huge amount of angst in play, and the joy of watching one of them go evil, while the other works frantically for a way to save the afflicted person, and maybe a few "I'd never give up on you" lines.
What's the deal with the Astronaut body and the one gunshot?
Taking over Coulson just seems boring.
I think Fitz would be most interesting though.
But I am anti anything that makes Ward go away for good.
Make them more like Bzzt and less like every other episode.
Its funny. Its generally said that the show got better once it ditched the monster-of-the-week format... and now we'd like to see it come back. I agree with ya.
Good thing the show just showed a way to put someone in suspended animation.
MWO: Adamski
And eventually, that plan worked. It's just that it wasn't a Hydra agent that figured it out.
Ward's a good character as he is. He doesn't need a significant personality shift, he already owns most if not all of the scenes he's in. Having an arc where he's possessed, and then having another arc about the damage to his psyche of being possessed would probably just diminish him.
I'm sure we'll have a shocking mid-season cliffhanger too. It'll be the first time during this series I get to experience it; I watched S2 on Netflix, so I got to see what happened after Tripp got petrified and Daisy got inhuman'd almost immediately.
My Backloggery