Still just a kid though. He could have been seriously injured, even killed. Even though everyone was definitely trying to be non-lethal except T'Challa vs. Bucky, Rhodey still managed to get paralyzed.
So? Thor is technically younger, comparatively to lifespan. Would you object to his presence? Vision is absolutely younger and even more naive.
I don't think his age is really relevant, he is old enough to understand the risks, and powerful enough to protect himself. He wants to help out because he is a hero, and Steve is breaking the law and endangering innocent lives. It is 100% in character for spider-man to go along.
Everything still falls to Steve, he is the one forcing this issue.
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Tony "created" Ultron because Wanda screwed with his head. Ultron was going to come out regardless, be it in Hydra's hands, Tony's or the Asgardians.
Tony doing it is actually the best case scenario, because they immediately knew about it and went after him. Imagine if Ultron had gotten into the destroyer armor instead?
Steve didn't force the issue, he was trying to get away without violence. Tony started it. Also, Parker is fifteen. He's a wide-eyed kid who gets drawn into the conflict basically because of how much faith he puts in Stark. He might have understood the danger, but he clearly didn't have any concept of the greater ramifications of his actions.
Steve's side started with the violence, it was Tony who tried to talk them down from getting into a brawl. Which Steve kept ignoring. Pete isn't an ordinary kid, he's been a super-hero for six months and he was fighting guys like Winter Soldier, Cap himself, Falcon and Ant-man, like a veteran - and winning.
It's not like Steve held back, and he's smart enough to realize he wasn't fighting an adult. Then he stopped Spider-man by dropping a large object on him (forgot what it was), that might have killed him if he didn't act quickly.
Steve held back, as did everyone else. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he wasn't. You just seem biased with that.
Tony also categorically ignored Cap when he tried to explain what was going on with Zemo because of course he did, it's Tony. The man who cannot be told anything, ever.
Like... Tony's my brah, but he's also an arrogant, selfish, spoiled manchild. He is literally privilege en carnate, becoming a hero because he can, because he chose to, and because his super-power is money. He built the MKII and MKIII in his mega-shop using super-money, because he felt like it. His shop under his hot-ass Malibu bro-mansion that notably didn't get bombed to hell until after he literally invited somebody to do it
True.
Wanda's family was murdered using Stark weapons, I would assume when she was fairly young(as Tony got out of the [consumer] weapons biz in 2008). She and her brother experienced the loss of their family and then, what, two days of waiting to die? All the while staring at a bomb with Tony Stark's name on it? And then Wanda and her brother spent the next however long living as street kids thanks to being orphaned (not in an awesome mansion while in mega-college, but while already living in a maybe-second-world country with a house that no longer exists). So, she and Pietro had a pretty damned good reason to be looking to start some beef with Stark specifically.
Sure she had good reasons for her decisions making, so did Whiplash. They were still super-villains. Tony's had lots of bad things happening to him too, beyond Afghanistan. No one's suggesting his troubles are an excuse for his mistakes.
Wanda has literally no reason to think that Stark is going to create an AI bent on the destruction of the human race- only that he would overreact to his vision and screw up, because that's mainly what Tony does. And, looky, Tony built a world-ending robot and literally no one holds him accountable for it aside from Thor, for a second, and some kid's mom.
Wanda knew what she did would make Stark do something terrible to tear the Avengers apart, that's what she counted on when they first met. At the time she was very loyal to HYDRA, and wanted to kill the Avengers - not just Stark. Stark was fundamental in creating Ultron, no arguing there. But he never willingly worked for it, she and her brother did. The only reason she switched at the last minute was that she learnt Ultron planned on destroying humanity, not stopping at the Avengers. Had Ultron done what she wanted, she wouldn't be an Avenger right now.
Wanda then accidentally scoots an explosion next to some people, in the process of moving it away from a couple hundred other bystanders, as well as a man who has saved the world twice.
Which is a serious error in super-heroing. Made worse with her past as a genuine super-villain and HYDRA Enhanced. She wasn't brain washed into complying with HYDRA like Bucky either.
Oh, let's step back a tick
And Tony's little science project managed to murder Wanda's sole remaining family member
Tony and Wanda's experiment, you mean. Like Tony she wasn't ashamed of the Murderbot.
Wanda could crush Tony's skull with her creepy mind powers and be fairly well justified.
I disagree.
That goes, like... triple if you think Tony was justified in wanting to ice the Manchurian Candidate. Among all the Avengers, Wanda has the least reason to try to do good in the name of others, and she immediately understands the consequences of her actions, while Tony has to be slapped in the chest with them.
I didn't say Tony was justified in trying to murder Bucky, he was very wrong to do so. I said it was understandable, exactly what you're doing with Wanda. And why is it ok for Wanda to murder Iron man for getting her brother killed, yet it's wrong for Tony to murder Bucky for killing his parents? (I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm following your thought process on this with a comparison.)
Steve held back, as did everyone else. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he wasn't. You just seem biased with that.
I disagree, he counted on Spidey being quick enough to catch it - if he was wrong he'd have killed a fifteen your old kid...
Tony also categorically ignored Cap when he tried to explain what was going on with Zemo because of course he did, it's Tony. The man who cannot be told anything, ever.
Cap didn't really push it that far, and he had no evidence to back up his actions. It wasn't until Zemo revealed himself that Tony knew he was wrong. Every attempt Tony tried failed at reigning in Cap, neither were getting through to each other. They were both bad at it. Even Widow and Rhodey couldn't get through to Cap, so Tony wasn't alone trying to convince him.
That's irrelevant because it is a superhero movie. Tossing people into walls doesn't kill them, and everyone knows it.
If we apply your logic to other characters beside Wanda, then what exactly was that when Falcon tried to apologize to Tony and he blasted him point blank in the chest with his repulsor after the fight was over? If this weren't a superhero movie that's one more to add to his very high bodycount, and pretty cold-blooded at that.
Tony's blasts vary in power, he can stun with it. Falcon didn't survive by accident. It wasn't point blank, there was a large gap between them. Wanda didn't know she'd survive, and Widow didn't have armor and wasn't Enhanced.
That's irrelevant because it is a superhero movie. Tossing people into walls doesn't kill them, and everyone knows it.
If we apply your logic to other characters beside Wanda, then what exactly was that when Falcon tried to apologize to Tony and he blasted him point blank in the chest with his repulsor after the fight was over? If this weren't a superhero movie that's one more to add to his very high bodycount, and pretty cold-blooded at that.
Tony's blasts vary in power, he can stun with it. Falcon didn't survive by accident. It wasn't point blank, there was a large gap between them. Wanda didn't know she'd survive, and Widow didn't have armor and wasn't Enhanced.
Throwing someone varies in power the same way repulsor blasts do. It's a pretty simple velocity equation. You're arguing that Wanda intentionally threw Widow hard enough to kill her and only movie logic saved her. I don't buy that, it's just special pleading.
That's irrelevant because it is a superhero movie. Tossing people into walls doesn't kill them, and everyone knows it.
If we apply your logic to other characters beside Wanda, then what exactly was that when Falcon tried to apologize to Tony and he blasted him point blank in the chest with his repulsor after the fight was over? If this weren't a superhero movie that's one more to add to his very high bodycount, and pretty cold-blooded at that.
Tony's blasts vary in power, he can stun with it. Falcon didn't survive by accident. It wasn't point blank, there was a large gap between them. Wanda didn't know she'd survive, and Widow didn't have armor and wasn't Enhanced.
Throwing someone varies in power the same way repulsor blasts do. It's a pretty simple velocity equation. You're arguing that Wanda intentionally threw Widow hard enough to kill her and only movie logic saved her. I don't buy that, it's just special pleading.
I don't find someone being thrown with force onto a hard object on their back a difficult issue to look sideways at. It takes very little force to severely screw up a person's back, and it's not like Wanda was that worried about how her hard threw her. She may not have died, but nearly crippling someone who was one of Cap's closest friends seems like a dick move at the least.
To be crystal clear, because I know you're going to come back at this with more special pleading:
Using your own idea of trying to apply real world logic to argue that Widow being chucked at a wall is lethal (which is true, in real life that could easily be fatal but in comic books it simply isn't) there is no such thing as a "safe" punch to the chest which knocks someone out. Repulsors aren't phasers, they are a force effect (necessary for flight: he isn't shooting electrical stuns or magic knock-out beams, he shoots concussive energy and we know this) he blasts Falcon right in the chest knocking him out. That's every bit as fatal as being thrown at a wall. I don't want to have another dumb PA forum argument about how people die from getting punched a single time and blah blah blah. We all already know this.
Applying real world logic to comic book injuries is dumb, but applying it selectively to "prove" that team Cap is the bad guys is extra dumb and you should stop.
Still just a kid though. He could have been seriously injured, even killed. Even though everyone was definitely trying to be non-lethal except T'Challa vs. Bucky, Rhodey still managed to get paralyzed.
So? Thor is technically younger, comparatively to lifespan. Would you object to his presence? Vision is absolutely younger and even more naive.
I don't think his age is really relevant, he is old enough to understand the risks, and powerful enough to protect himself. He wants to help out because he is a hero, and Steve is breaking the law and endangering innocent lives. It is 100% in character for spider-man to go along.
Everything still falls to Steve, he is the one forcing this issue.
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Tony "created" Ultron because Wanda screwed with his head. Ultron was going to come out regardless, be it in Hydra's hands, Tony's or the Asgardians.
Tony doing it is actually the best case scenario, because they immediately knew about it and went after him. Imagine if Ultron had gotten into the destroyer armor instead?
Steve didn't force the issue, he was trying to get away without violence. Tony started it. Also, Parker is fifteen. He's a wide-eyed kid who gets drawn into the conflict basically because of how much faith he puts in Stark. He might have understood the danger, but he clearly didn't have any concept of the greater ramifications of his actions.
Steve's side started with the violence, it was Tony who tried to talk them down from getting into a brawl. Which Steve kept ignoring. Pete isn't an ordinary kid, he's been a super-hero for six months and he was fighting guys like Winter Soldier, Cap himself, Falcon and Ant-man, like a veteran - and winning.
It's not like Steve held back, and he's smart enough to realize he wasn't fighting an adult. Then he stopped Spider-man by dropping a large object on him (forgot what it was), that might have killed him if he didn't act quickly.
Steve's side threw the first punch specifically because Tony wasn't going to let them escape to deal with the bad guy. Are you saying Peter has the emotional maturity and ability to judge the long-term consequences of his actions that everyone else has? No 15 year old does. Nobody in that fight was really expecting anyone to get hurt, hence the reaction to Rhodey's injury. Even if Parker knew the risks, that's not my point. My point was that he doesn't even know what he's fighting over. Tony showed up, convinced him to be a big damn hero without a deep explanation of the situation, and threw in a wad of cash to sweeten the pot. At 15 years old, Peter didn't have the necessary skepticism to consider whether Tony might not be telling him everything, might not know everything, might be lying about his motives, or might just plain be wrong.
To be crystal clear, because I know you're going to come back at this with more special pleading:
Using your own idea of trying to apply real world logic to argue that Widow being chucked at a wall is lethal (which is true, in real life that could easily be fatal but in comic books it simply isn't) there is no such thing as a "safe" punch to the chest which knocks someone out. Repulsors aren't phasers, they are a force effect (necessary for flight: he isn't shooting electrical stuns or magic knock-out beams, he shoots concussive energy and we know this) he blasts Falcon right in the chest knocking him out. That's every bit as fatal as being thrown at a wall. I don't want to have another dumb PA forum argument about how people die from getting punched a single time and blah blah blah. We all already know this.
Applying real world logic to comic book injuries is dumb, but applying it selectively to "prove" that team Cap is the bad guys is extra dumb and you should stop.
Thanks to comic book science they work like that, anyway.
I wasn't going to bring up how movie logic with fights aren't realistic, it was imply something I noticed. Nor is this the only evidence for Cap's team not being perfect angels, as I've discussed upthread.
While the movies aren't completely realistic, they're super-hero films, they do take pains to establish some characters are tougher than others. This is why Cap is such a beast who keeps getting stronger in every appearance. But if you're going to bring up Tony shooting Falcon there's no reason I can't bring up Wanda throwing Widow.
We weren't shown if he has spider sense or not and were shown evidence to suggest he didn't. But that's also kind of par for the course, since he'd never get hit then. So it's TBD.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
To be crystal clear, because I know you're going to come back at this with more special pleading:
Using your own idea of trying to apply real world logic to argue that Widow being chucked at a wall is lethal (which is true, in real life that could easily be fatal but in comic books it simply isn't) there is no such thing as a "safe" punch to the chest which knocks someone out. Repulsors aren't phasers, they are a force effect (necessary for flight: he isn't shooting electrical stuns or magic knock-out beams, he shoots concussive energy and we know this) he blasts Falcon right in the chest knocking him out. That's every bit as fatal as being thrown at a wall. I don't want to have another dumb PA forum argument about how people die from getting punched a single time and blah blah blah. We all already know this.
Applying real world logic to comic book injuries is dumb, but applying it selectively to "prove" that team Cap is the bad guys is extra dumb and you should stop.
Thanks to comic book science they work like that, anyway.
I wasn't going to bring up how movie logic with fights aren't realistic, it was imply something I noticed. Nor is this the only evidence for Cap's team not being perfect angels, as I've discussed upthread.
While the movies aren't completely realistic, they're super-hero films, they do take pains to establish some characters are tougher than others. This is why Cap is such a beast who keeps getting stronger in every appearance. But if you're going to bring up Tony shooting Falcon there's no reason I can't bring up Wanda throwing Widow.
Really? He brought that up specifically because you brought it up in order to refute what you were saying. Check your causality.
Well, Cap drops a walkway on his head and he catches it, so... Maybe?
He also gets surprised by redwing.
There's a couple possible answers here, all comic book. His spidery sensibilities could have seen Redwing, but not predicted it would intercept his web shot. He could have been fatigued from the fight and not been showing it, in the comics his arachnid attention can be diminished when tired. Or, because he only recently gained his powers, he might not know how to use it yet. His sense could be reacting to every threat in that airport, of which there are several.
For all the leadup to Cap being the unreasonable one dealing with personal issues in this film, Tony is the one from start to finish is the one that fits that bill
And nobody acts like Cap has earned even a little leeway to be heard out
He personally saved the world from the US government in cap 2 and then released all the secret spy documents. He's a greater hero than any of them as far as the world's concerned, and nobody will so much as listen to him, hell he could get on twitter and have demonstrations on his behalf all over the world if he knew how to use the internet
Then there's Vision, who is a creepy as fuck stalker/jailer keeping Wanda prisoner for no reason (oh no she might... uh... fail to entirely prevent a terrorist attack from claiming lives?)
I don't think I liked Civil War as much as everyone else
it mostly just made me upset
Some people are allergic to good things. I'm sorry you have to watch exclusively DC movies.
The DC movies are fucking awful, what's with this crazy marvel fan bullshit where if you dislike anything about any Marvel movie you have to suck DC movie dick
The more I sit on Civil War the more I like it, but it just wasn't pleasant, the plot didn't sit right with me because it turned so many of the good guys into bad guys
Before I watched it I liked Iron man and War Machine (or is he Iron Patriot?) and Vision and now I dislike all 3 of them and have little interest in future movies featuring them
Not to mention Tony is trying to hold everyone accountable for Sokovia, which is basically entirely his fault (with a bit of Banner too, but he's guilty of a lot of other stuff already). If Tony was really so broken up over Sokovia, he would turn himself in first.
For all the leadup to Cap being the unreasonable one dealing with personal issues in this film, Tony is the one from start to finish is the one that fits that bill
And nobody acts like Cap has earned even a little leeway to be heard out
He personally saved the world from the US government in cap 2 and then released all the secret spy documents. He's a greater hero than any of them as far as the world's concerned, and nobody will so much as listen to him, hell he could get on twitter and have demonstrations on his behalf all over the world if he knew how to use the internet
Then there's Vision, who is a creepy as fuck stalker/jailer keeping Wanda prisoner for no reason (oh no she might... uh... fail to entirely prevent a terrorist attack from claiming lives?)
Why does having previously saved the world allow him to flaunt laws that have been successfully passed? Does he get free reign to walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head?
Vision was keeping Wanda under house arrest, in a mansion. Given she had months before been a terrorist, been killing people, and helping a robot attempt genocide. Then she is involved in an incident where she kills several people. Not to mention she is at best, under a work visa to the country.
This is the exact same treatment anyone else in a peace keeping force would have happen to them when they kill someone during their job. They are removed from active duty while the situation was investigated to make sure it is all on the up and up.
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Hell, Tony personally kept Manhatten from being blown up, so shouldn't we listen to him? Steve didn't think so in AoU, so why should we listen to Cap now?
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Also you should stop trying to pin the accords on Tony, they were happening regardless. This isn't Tony Stark Presents: The Accords. It's the UN Presents: The Accords, starring Tony Stark.
11 people died, hundreds would have died if she did nothing
She wasn't removed from active duty, she was imprisoned by a creepy killbot from space that the world is inexplicably not terrified of
I don't recall any part of the accords giving Vision the authority to keep prisoners, nor any formal charges being leveled at her, Tony ordered Vision to keep her there just like Tony recruited a kid to be his muscle because it's all about Tony
11 people died, hundreds would have died if she did nothing
She wasn't removed from active duty, she was imprisoned by a creepy killbot from space that the world is inexplicably not terrified of
What do you think happens when a police officer shoots and kills a person in the line of duty, even to save someones life?
They are put on leave while the shooting is investigated.
She was put under house arrest because, SHE WAS JUST OUT PURPOSEFULLY MURDERING PEOPLE A FEW MONTHS AGO.
Not putting her under house arrest/watch would have been incredibly shortsighted in case she was doing it purposefully.
Who was she out purposefully murdering?
My memory is a little fuzzy
I know she's responsible for the Hulk's rampage that caused an indeterminate amount of damage, but as I recall nobody knows about that and everyone blamed hulk for it
11 people died, hundreds would have died if she did nothing
She wasn't removed from active duty, she was imprisoned by a creepy killbot from space that the world is inexplicably not terrified of
What do you think happens when a police officer shoots and kills a person in the line of duty, even to save someones life?
They are put on leave while the shooting is investigated.
She was put under house arrest because, SHE WAS JUST OUT PURPOSEFULLY MURDERING PEOPLE A FEW MONTHS AGO.
Not putting her under house arrest/watch would have been incredibly shortsighted in case she was doing it purposefully.
Who was she out purposefully murdering?
My memory is a little fuzzy
During AoU, when she was helping Ultron go around stealing things from bases to make his world destroying engine/bomb thing, and killing anyone who tried to stop them.
I'll have to watch it again because I don't remember her actually killing anybody
but that's a moot point, that has nothing to do with why she was on house arrest, she was on house arrest because Tony ordered it for political convenience, and he did so without bothering to get anyone else's opinion
I'll have to watch it again because I don't remember her actually killing anybody
but that's a moot point, that has nothing to do with why she was on house arrest, she was on house arrest because Tony ordered it for political convenience, and he did so without bothering to get anyone else's opinion
How is it a moot point? A literal terrorist just killed 11 people. Why the fuck would they let her walk around free? You know what happens if you were to go out and kill 11 people, even if it was to save 20? They would throw your ass in jail.
She was put under house arrest instead, because she was their friend. They were literally giving her the benefit of the doubt.
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Jay, because Tony hadn't just walked out and killed 11 more people after the Ultron incident. Wanda and Tony were given the same pass for stopping Ultron, then she killed 11 more people. So they put her under house arrest while they investigated.
Wait so, Tony gets a pass for nearly killing everyone on earth but Wanda is the worse one because she killed 11 people?
You mean how Wanda started the whole thing to begin with?
Yes, they both get a free pass for all of their involvement in Ultron.
No one is applying a judgement on Wanda.
She was a terrorist. She killed people. She was helping a robot attempt genocide. She had a hand in the creation of said robot.
She claimed to have gone straight.
She then kills 11 people.
You really don't see a cause for alarm there? Really?
Your plan is, "Welp, let her just walk around, she claims it was an accident."
I think what Tony did is several orders of magnitude worse, and if he can be forgiven for nearly removing life from the earth, Wanda can be forgiven too. Tony specifically created the scenario in which Wanda, Pietro and all Sokovians came to hate him. Ultron gave them an opportunity to pay him back, they were not thinking rationally. Once fully aware of his goals, they turned on him. Tony's weapons killed far more people than helped, and his actions have nearly wiped the earth, twice. Tony's position of putting them in check means nothing when he himself is not put in check by any means.
By your logic, Black Widow should be put away too. Cap as well, for disobeying orders many times and kicking dudes into the stratosphere while doing so. Almost every hero has done things that could land them under "house arrest".
I think what Tony did is several orders of magnitude worse, and if he can be forgiven for nearly removing life from the earth, Wanda can be forgiven too. Tony specifically created the scenario in which Wanda, Pietro and all Sokovians came to hate him. Ultron gave them an opportunity to pay him back, they were not thinking rationally. Once fully aware of his goals, they turned on him. Tony's weapons killed far more people than helped, and his actions have nearly wiped the earth, twice. Tony's position of putting them in check means nothing when he himself is not put in check by any means.
By your logic, Black Widow should be put away too. Cap as well, for disobeying orders many times and kicking dudes into the stratosphere while doing so. Almost every hero has done things that could land them under "house arrest".
You are woefully missing the point. Let my try to cut this down into simpler terms for you.
Tony created Ultron. Tony stopped Ultron. Tony was forgiven.
Wanda created Ultron. Wanda stopped Ultron. Wanda was forgiven. Wanda then went and killed 11 innocent people.
And more people who lived would have died if not for her actions as well? In a warzone, casulaties happen. Do you blame everything that happens in each of the tragedies solely on the heroes involved?
People have died as a direct result of these conflicts multiple times. It seems to me the forgiveness being doled out is pretty selective.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
"Wanda killed 11 people" isn't really an accurate description of the situation. "Wanda saved n people instead of n+11" makes more sense to me.
Yeah, holding Wanda or anyone but Crossbones accountable for those 11 people is pants on head stupid and piss off if I was her.
Holding her accountable for Ultron, on the other hand, she's guilty. We never heard of anything about that, though. But she's still guilty so on that basis I don't have a lot of sympathy for her.
The movie in a void she was in the right. But taken as a whole, probably not, but that's people.
I think what Tony did is several orders of magnitude worse, and if he can be forgiven for nearly removing life from the earth, Wanda can be forgiven too. Tony specifically created the scenario in which Wanda, Pietro and all Sokovians came to hate him. Ultron gave them an opportunity to pay him back, they were not thinking rationally. Once fully aware of his goals, they turned on him. Tony's weapons killed far more people than helped, and his actions have nearly wiped the earth, twice. Tony's position of putting them in check means nothing when he himself is not put in check by any means.
By your logic, Black Widow should be put away too. Cap as well, for disobeying orders many times and kicking dudes into the stratosphere while doing so. Almost every hero has done things that could land them under "house arrest".
You are woefully missing the point. Let my try to cut this down into simpler terms for you.
Tony created Ultron. Tony stopped Ultron. Tony was forgiven.
Wanda created Ultron. Wanda stopped Ultron. Wanda was forgiven. Wanda then went and killed 11 innocent people.
Do you see the difference?
She didn't kill 11 people. Crossbones killed 11 people and Wanda wasn't able to stop it(either because her concentration slipped or because her power could not contain the blast anymore).
And more people who lived would have died if not for her actions as well? In a warzone, casulaties happen. Do you blame everything that happens in each of the tragedies solely on the heroes involved?
People have died as a direct result of these conflicts multiple times. It seems to me the forgiveness being doled out is pretty selective.
Yes, when someone is killed during a police action, the people involved are held responsible. They are removed from duty until it has been investigated. Thus the house arrest.
If a cop is shooting a criminal, and ends up shooting a civilian by mistake, they are still held responsible for that civilians death.
The forgiveness was exactly the same.
Tony was forgiven.
Wanda was forgiven.
See how both where given the exact same forgiveness?
Wanda then killed 11 people. She didn't fail to save them. She directly killed them due to her actions.
Tony did not then kill 11 people. There is nothing new to forgive.
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If a cop takes a bomb off of a criminal, and throws it over a fence to save 20 people, but kills 11 more. He is still responsible for killing those 11 people.
You're really bending over backwards to blame her for this, it wasn't her actions that killed anyone. She was there to help not harm. She reacted to Crossbones, and did the best she could have. More people would have died had she not intervened. Your point of 'it's her fault' is totally off base. It's as if saying a hijacked plane being taken control of the passengers to not hit a building makes the passengers responsible for their own deaths because they couldn't land it.
You're really bending over backwards to blame her for this, it wasn't her actions that killed anyone. She was there to help not harm. She reacted to Crossbones, and did the best she could have. More people would have died had she not intervened. Your point of 'it's her fault' is totally off base. It's as if saying a hijacked plane being taken control of the passengers to not hit a building makes the passengers responsible for their own deaths because they couldn't land it.
If one of those passengers took control of the plane, but then crashed it into an apartment complex? Yes, that would be his fault for killing those people. He would then be arrested while they investigated the situation.
It doesn't matter whose fault it was. She was involved in the killing of innocent people. That warrants being removed from duty and the incident investigated.
If Tony went out and killed 11 people, he too should be put under house arrest and have the incident investigated. There is no special treatment being applied here.
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I am just going to assume you are willfully trolling at this point, so I am going to bed.
She didn't make the bomb. She didn't set it off in a crowded area. The entire reason it happened was never her fault. He reaction was to help, and she did. By your logic, she should have let him blow up more people and just stand there.
Tony made many weapons who hurt many innocents but somehow he isn't being held responsible for how people used those weapons.
It's straight making stuff up to say she killed them. She was there when they died and tried saving them as has been pointed out many times, those are the facts.
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Steve held back, as did everyone else. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he wasn't. You just seem biased with that.
Tony also categorically ignored Cap when he tried to explain what was going on with Zemo because of course he did, it's Tony. The man who cannot be told anything, ever.
True.
Sure she had good reasons for her decisions making, so did Whiplash. They were still super-villains. Tony's had lots of bad things happening to him too, beyond Afghanistan. No one's suggesting his troubles are an excuse for his mistakes.
Wanda knew what she did would make Stark do something terrible to tear the Avengers apart, that's what she counted on when they first met. At the time she was very loyal to HYDRA, and wanted to kill the Avengers - not just Stark. Stark was fundamental in creating Ultron, no arguing there. But he never willingly worked for it, she and her brother did. The only reason she switched at the last minute was that she learnt Ultron planned on destroying humanity, not stopping at the Avengers. Had Ultron done what she wanted, she wouldn't be an Avenger right now.
Which is a serious error in super-heroing. Made worse with her past as a genuine super-villain and HYDRA Enhanced. She wasn't brain washed into complying with HYDRA like Bucky either.
I disagree.
I didn't say Tony was justified in trying to murder Bucky, he was very wrong to do so. I said it was understandable, exactly what you're doing with Wanda. And why is it ok for Wanda to murder Iron man for getting her brother killed, yet it's wrong for Tony to murder Bucky for killing his parents? (I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm following your thought process on this with a comparison.)
I disagree, he counted on Spidey being quick enough to catch it - if he was wrong he'd have killed a fifteen your old kid...
Cap didn't really push it that far, and he had no evidence to back up his actions. It wasn't until Zemo revealed himself that Tony knew he was wrong. Every attempt Tony tried failed at reigning in Cap, neither were getting through to each other. They were both bad at it. Even Widow and Rhodey couldn't get through to Cap, so Tony wasn't alone trying to convince him.
Tony's blasts vary in power, he can stun with it. Falcon didn't survive by accident. It wasn't point blank, there was a large gap between them. Wanda didn't know she'd survive, and Widow didn't have armor and wasn't Enhanced.
Throwing someone varies in power the same way repulsor blasts do. It's a pretty simple velocity equation. You're arguing that Wanda intentionally threw Widow hard enough to kill her and only movie logic saved her. I don't buy that, it's just special pleading.
I don't find someone being thrown with force onto a hard object on their back a difficult issue to look sideways at. It takes very little force to severely screw up a person's back, and it's not like Wanda was that worried about how her hard threw her. She may not have died, but nearly crippling someone who was one of Cap's closest friends seems like a dick move at the least.
Using your own idea of trying to apply real world logic to argue that Widow being chucked at a wall is lethal (which is true, in real life that could easily be fatal but in comic books it simply isn't) there is no such thing as a "safe" punch to the chest which knocks someone out. Repulsors aren't phasers, they are a force effect (necessary for flight: he isn't shooting electrical stuns or magic knock-out beams, he shoots concussive energy and we know this) he blasts Falcon right in the chest knocking him out. That's every bit as fatal as being thrown at a wall. I don't want to have another dumb PA forum argument about how people die from getting punched a single time and blah blah blah. We all already know this.
Applying real world logic to comic book injuries is dumb, but applying it selectively to "prove" that team Cap is the bad guys is extra dumb and you should stop.
Steve's side threw the first punch specifically because Tony wasn't going to let them escape to deal with the bad guy. Are you saying Peter has the emotional maturity and ability to judge the long-term consequences of his actions that everyone else has? No 15 year old does. Nobody in that fight was really expecting anyone to get hurt, hence the reaction to Rhodey's injury. Even if Parker knew the risks, that's not my point. My point was that he doesn't even know what he's fighting over. Tony showed up, convinced him to be a big damn hero without a deep explanation of the situation, and threw in a wad of cash to sweeten the pot. At 15 years old, Peter didn't have the necessary skepticism to consider whether Tony might not be telling him everything, might not know everything, might be lying about his motives, or might just plain be wrong.
Thanks to comic book science they work like that, anyway.
I wasn't going to bring up how movie logic with fights aren't realistic, it was imply something I noticed. Nor is this the only evidence for Cap's team not being perfect angels, as I've discussed upthread.
While the movies aren't completely realistic, they're super-hero films, they do take pains to establish some characters are tougher than others. This is why Cap is such a beast who keeps getting stronger in every appearance. But if you're going to bring up Tony shooting Falcon there's no reason I can't bring up Wanda throwing Widow.
Really? He brought that up specifically because you brought it up in order to refute what you were saying. Check your causality.
He also gets surprised by redwing.
There's a couple possible answers here, all comic book. His spidery sensibilities could have seen Redwing, but not predicted it would intercept his web shot. He could have been fatigued from the fight and not been showing it, in the comics his arachnid attention can be diminished when tired. Or, because he only recently gained his powers, he might not know how to use it yet. His sense could be reacting to every threat in that airport, of which there are several.
Take your pick
And nobody acts like Cap has earned even a little leeway to be heard out
He personally saved the world from the US government in cap 2 and then released all the secret spy documents. He's a greater hero than any of them as far as the world's concerned, and nobody will so much as listen to him, hell he could get on twitter and have demonstrations on his behalf all over the world if he knew how to use the internet
Then there's Vision, who is a creepy as fuck stalker/jailer keeping Wanda prisoner for no reason (oh no she might... uh... fail to entirely prevent a terrorist attack from claiming lives?)
The DC movies are fucking awful, what's with this crazy marvel fan bullshit where if you dislike anything about any Marvel movie you have to suck DC movie dick
The more I sit on Civil War the more I like it, but it just wasn't pleasant, the plot didn't sit right with me because it turned so many of the good guys into bad guys
Before I watched it I liked Iron man and War Machine (or is he Iron Patriot?) and Vision and now I dislike all 3 of them and have little interest in future movies featuring them
Why does having previously saved the world allow him to flaunt laws that have been successfully passed? Does he get free reign to walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head?
Vision was keeping Wanda under house arrest, in a mansion. Given she had months before been a terrorist, been killing people, and helping a robot attempt genocide. Then she is involved in an incident where she kills several people. Not to mention she is at best, under a work visa to the country.
This is the exact same treatment anyone else in a peace keeping force would have happen to them when they kill someone during their job. They are removed from active duty while the situation was investigated to make sure it is all on the up and up.
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Hell, Tony personally kept Manhatten from being blown up, so shouldn't we listen to him? Steve didn't think so in AoU, so why should we listen to Cap now?
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Also you should stop trying to pin the accords on Tony, they were happening regardless. This isn't Tony Stark Presents: The Accords. It's the UN Presents: The Accords, starring Tony Stark.
She wasn't removed from active duty, she was imprisoned by a creepy killbot from space that the world is inexplicably not terrified of
I don't recall any part of the accords giving Vision the authority to keep prisoners, nor any formal charges being leveled at her, Tony ordered Vision to keep her there just like Tony recruited a kid to be his muscle because it's all about Tony
What do you think happens when a police officer shoots and kills a person in the line of duty, even to save someones life?
They are put on leave while the shooting is investigated.
She was put under house arrest because, SHE WAS JUST OUT PURPOSEFULLY AND DELIBERATELY MURDERING PEOPLE A FEW MONTHS AGO.
Not putting her under house arrest/watch would have been incredibly shortsighted in case she was doing it purposefully.
Who was she out purposefully murdering?
My memory is a little fuzzy
I know she's responsible for the Hulk's rampage that caused an indeterminate amount of damage, but as I recall nobody knows about that and everyone blamed hulk for it
During AoU, when she was helping Ultron go around stealing things from bases to make his world destroying engine/bomb thing, and killing anyone who tried to stop them.
but that's a moot point, that has nothing to do with why she was on house arrest, she was on house arrest because Tony ordered it for political convenience, and he did so without bothering to get anyone else's opinion
How is it a moot point? A literal terrorist just killed 11 people. Why the fuck would they let her walk around free? You know what happens if you were to go out and kill 11 people, even if it was to save 20? They would throw your ass in jail.
She was put under house arrest instead, because she was their friend. They were literally giving her the benefit of the doubt.
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Jay, because Tony hadn't just walked out and killed 11 more people after the Ultron incident. Wanda and Tony were given the same pass for stopping Ultron, then she killed 11 more people. So they put her under house arrest while they investigated.
His flying death spaceships almost killed everyone too
You mean how Wanda started the whole thing to begin with?
Yes, they both get a free pass for all of their involvement in Ultron.
No one is applying a judgement on Wanda.
She was a terrorist. She killed people. She was helping a robot attempt genocide. She had a hand in the creation of said robot.
She claimed to have gone straight.
She then kills 11 people.
You really don't see a cause for alarm there? Really?
Your plan is, "Welp, let her just walk around, she claims it was an accident."
By your logic, Black Widow should be put away too. Cap as well, for disobeying orders many times and kicking dudes into the stratosphere while doing so. Almost every hero has done things that could land them under "house arrest".
You are woefully missing the point. Let my try to cut this down into simpler terms for you.
Tony created Ultron. Tony stopped Ultron. Tony was forgiven.
Wanda created Ultron. Wanda stopped Ultron. Wanda was forgiven. Wanda then went and killed 11 innocent people.
Do you see the difference?
People have died as a direct result of these conflicts multiple times. It seems to me the forgiveness being doled out is pretty selective.
Holding her accountable for Ultron, on the other hand, she's guilty. We never heard of anything about that, though. But she's still guilty so on that basis I don't have a lot of sympathy for her.
The movie in a void she was in the right. But taken as a whole, probably not, but that's people.
She didn't kill 11 people. Crossbones killed 11 people and Wanda wasn't able to stop it(either because her concentration slipped or because her power could not contain the blast anymore).
Yes, when someone is killed during a police action, the people involved are held responsible. They are removed from duty until it has been investigated. Thus the house arrest.
If a cop is shooting a criminal, and ends up shooting a civilian by mistake, they are still held responsible for that civilians death.
The forgiveness was exactly the same.
Tony was forgiven.
Wanda was forgiven.
See how both where given the exact same forgiveness?
Wanda then killed 11 people. She didn't fail to save them. She directly killed them due to her actions.
Tony did not then kill 11 people. There is nothing new to forgive.
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If a cop takes a bomb off of a criminal, and throws it over a fence to save 20 people, but kills 11 more. He is still responsible for killing those 11 people.
If one of those passengers took control of the plane, but then crashed it into an apartment complex? Yes, that would be his fault for killing those people. He would then be arrested while they investigated the situation.
It doesn't matter whose fault it was. She was involved in the killing of innocent people. That warrants being removed from duty and the incident investigated.
If Tony went out and killed 11 people, he too should be put under house arrest and have the incident investigated. There is no special treatment being applied here.
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I am just going to assume you are willfully trolling at this point, so I am going to bed.
Tony made many weapons who hurt many innocents but somehow he isn't being held responsible for how people used those weapons.