In Winter Soldier, Widow is the one who name drops Winter Soldier as a 'ghost' in the intelligence community, retelling an incident where she was shot that she attributes to him. But she's never met him. They tangle a bit during the highway action sequence. At the end of the film she presents Cap with some files she was able to get on Winter Solder from Kiev contacts. There's no suggestion that they trained together or anything
No, I know that. In the comics, they were apparently trained in the same program. They even had a romantic relationship I believe. "Don't you at least recognize me?" is a weird thing to say in the movie though, unless they're alluding to a backstory for them similar to the comics. Or maybe I misheard her and she said something completely different.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
I don't think anyone's going to argue that Wanda should be taken off active duty for a bit. But she's being held against her will. Best intentions or not, that's a human rights violation.
The thing that makes it bad wasn't that Wanda was stuck at the compound it was that she should have been stuck at the compound because the Avengers had a conversation about what happened and how bad it looked and how her situation as a non U.S. citizen was so tenuous and Wanda, we need you to lay low and stay home for the time being.
But of course that's not how it was handled at all. Tony tried to go all Nick Fury and, to the surprise of no one, it blew up in his face because it turns out people feel pretty threatened by "surprise, you're actually not free to leave".
Yep. Wanda might have been more cooperative if Tony had talked to her and simply asked "Hey, things are crazy right now, can you just lay low? I'm worried some idiot's going to come at you if you go out in public and if you defend yourself people will just use it as an excuse to yell about you on TV for another day."
Well, maybe not Tony, I'm not sure how friendly he and Wanda are, but if Tony had sat down with her and Steve to talk about it, that might have been better.
If I blow up a building in Lagos, there are multiple sets of laws that define the response to that. If I am charged with a crime under one or more of them, I can reasonably be held for some period of time pending a trial. This is how due process works, and it already exists.
Wanda was not charged under any of the legal frameworks that already exist, because if she was we can reasonably assume it would have come up in the discussions in the movie. As such, the arbiters of those legal systems had determined that she committed no crime. Unsatisfied with this, Tony created a secret prison and threw the non-citizen that had been declined prosecution by all legal entities involved into it. Then he signed on to the accords out of guilt that he assumed everyone else should be feeling as well.
If the accords were about creating a better framework for international after action judgements on Avengers activities, I'd be in board and so would Cap I think. But they start at secret prisons with no due process and potentially end with the next Hydra calling the shots for the world's only super team. There's no part of that continuum that is acceptable.
I'm a little surprised how many people keep wording it over the last pages as 'Wanda killed people' in the Lagos incident. It strikes me as something much more akin to a Good Samaritan event; a good faith effort was made to save as many as possible. If she hadn't been there, or had acted differently (say just erected the shield and held it until she couldn't anymore), dozens or hundreds more would've been killed/maimed, including friends/team mates.
No, that doesn't bring anyone back from the dead, and not just her actions but the immense guilt/trauma she's expressed because of it are excellent reasons to see to it that she gets help and is taken off active duty.
But just because she has extraordinary abilities, I think it's a bit far to expect her to be infinitely capable. Like, let's step back from comic or real world comparisons; it's a movie. She couldn't save everyone not because she chose poorly or her powers weren't strong enough, it went down that way because the plot demanded it. Debating (as we have in even earlier pages) that Team Cap should've backed down and followed them or whatever falls apart simply because the plot demanded bad shit go down and people die in the first act. It could've been Falcon accidentally clipping a cable leading to a structure collapsing or Tony dropping a pile of ordinance on the wrong target or Cap simply being wrong (tactically) for once and getting a bunch of hostages killed.
They're hyper competent and unstoppable when the action sequence demands it, and they fail or fall short when dramatic tension requires it.
Tony putting her under house arrest, even if for her own good, should've been something they talked out. And yes, I'm sure it would've been potentially a difficult (if not scary) conversation to have with someone who is potentially one of the most powerful people on Earth, but putting another A-Tier force on jailer duty rather than simply having a gentle discussion about wanting to make sure she's okay and establishing a framework for that seems infinitely preferable to making the decision for her.
Sorry, I'm not trying to demand a change to the conversation, but the pages of debate as to the starting point for the film seem rather off base to me; there needed to be a starting point for the film. How we got there was unfortunate, but it was going to happen somehow. How people reacted following that, how they were manipulated into fighting one another, how the world tried to legislate them into line with allegedly (as per Tony) some wiggle room/negotiating space and then went Full Gitmo on them after they ruined an airport in a conflict, sure that seems like there were some poor choices made.
But Wanda was a tipping point because there needed to be a tipping point.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
If I blow up a building in Lagos, there are multiple sets of laws that define the response to that. If I am charged with a crime under one or more of them, I can reasonably be held for some period of time pending a trial. This is how due process works, and it already exists.
Wanda was not charged under any of the legal frameworks that already exist, because if she was we can reasonably assume it would have come up in the discussions in the movie. As such, the arbiters of those legal systems had determined that she committed no crime. Unsatisfied with this, Tony created a secret prison and threw the non-citizen that had been declined prosecution by all legal entities involved into it. Then he signed on to the accords out of guilt that he assumed everyone else should be feeling as well.
If the accords were about creating a better framework for international after action judgements on Avengers activities, I'd be in board and so would Cap I think. But they start at secret prisons with no due process and potentially end with the next Hydra calling the shots for the world's only super team. There's no part of that continuum that is acceptable.
The Accords didn't actually start at the Raft, Cap just escalated things ro the point where that was where they were.
I was under the impression that the Accords were absolutely a legal framework so that people like Tony didn't have to cobble together justifications for why the Avengers should be allowed to operate with impunity.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
And nobody on the Raft mentioned anything about lawyers, trials, or sentences. Everything we see suggests that Ross was planning to keep them there, forever, and only let them out whenever he needed something dead.
Which was probably the point.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
Good thing it wasn't comic book Civil War or the shock collar would have been somewhere other than her neck!
Not to mention she reacted extremely quickly, and had barely a few seconds to even decide what to do with the currently-exploding Crossbones. I mean, if you're holding a suddenly live grenade the first thing you're going to do is chuck it as far away as possible. You don't really stop to think about what's in the general vicinity of where you're sending it, because you do not have time to do so. She absolutely did the best that she could, in those circumstances. Maybe she could have launched him straight up in the air, but once again, who thinks it's a great idea to throw a live grenade vertically?
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that in these circumstances, she did the best she could, and she did save more lives than were lost as a result of her actions.
I think the issue is that there IS an analogy to when a hero's actions in acting heroically result in the death of a civilian: that is, in a police action situation. If a police officer's actions lead to a death (at least a civilian death, so far as I understand), they're benched during the investigation, and sent back to active duty when they're cleared.
Now, I will say the movie did a poor job of showing the cause and effect of Wanda going under house arrest subsequent to the Lagos incident (and it would be reasonable to argue that the cause/effect isn't even really there); but I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that a hero should be benched while an investigation occurs regarding deaths on the scene. I'll grant also that the Accords weren't in place yet, so it wouldn't be the cause of her getting benched, but that is more or less the point--they are a sort-of law enforcement agency, and they had no plan for internal policing that resembles anything any remotely analogous agency has had for years and years.
I would just note that being temporarily put on leave during an investigation is hardly equivalent to being imprisoned against your will (essentially kidnapped) by private parties with no oversight / due process / framework.
'Wanda can't go on mission with the Avengers until we've examined what happened to exonerate her' would be reasonable - keeping her locked-up in Tony's club house & having Friend Computer supervise her is not. It's one of many pieces of evidence that suggests the Accords are already a busted deal fro the get-go.
He tried to make her a nice fresh batch of Hot Fun so she would feel better.
In Winter Soldier, Widow is the one who name drops Winter Soldier as a 'ghost' in the intelligence community, retelling an incident where she was shot that she attributes to him. But she's never met him. They tangle a bit during the highway action sequence. At the end of the film she presents Cap with some files she was able to get on Winter Solder from Kiev contacts. There's no suggestion that they trained together or anything
No, I know that. In the comics, they were apparently trained in the same program. They even had a romantic relationship I believe. "Don't you at least recognize me?" is a weird thing to say in the movie though, unless they're alluding to a backstory for them similar to the comics. Or maybe I misheard her and she said something completely different.
She's asking if he recognized her because they'd had encounters before in TSW (the film).
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The bomb situation in Lagos was a straight up Trolley Problem. There was a bomb that had already exploded and the choice was where the explosive effects would be felt. Somehow blaming the whole thing on Wanda and going so far as to say she was the one who killed people is pretty dubious. Is the argument that she didn't try hard enough to contain the explosion or that she chose to throw it into the building as opposed to some location well away from any buildings?
Things about The Raft:
1) It seems to have been built in about a week, or it had been in the works for a while and the powers that be were just waiting for a chance to spring the Accords on people. And you know the damn thing had to have had some Stark input, lord knows he wasn't at all surprised or uncomfortable when he went there.
2) The only people we saw in there were the good guys. Which might have been a bit of a missed opportunity on Marvel's part. Either that or this place was only built to hold heroes and the baddies I assume get a bullet in the back of the head.
3) So how exactly are they holding Wanda? She's a telekinetic with spooky mind powers, do they electro-zap her if anything fishy happens? And why are Ant-Man and Falcon stuck in such a hole? Their powers come entirely from technology that someone else designed, without that they're a skilled B&E guy and an ex-military PTSD counselor, respectively.
4) Sticking a bunch of heroes in an underwater prison seems like a gilded invitation to Hydra or similar to roll in, open a few valves, and drown everyone.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
In Winter Soldier, Widow is the one who name drops Winter Soldier as a 'ghost' in the intelligence community, retelling an incident where she was shot that she attributes to him. But she's never met him. They tangle a bit during the highway action sequence. At the end of the film she presents Cap with some files she was able to get on Winter Solder from Kiev contacts. There's no suggestion that they trained together or anything
No, I know that. In the comics, they were apparently trained in the same program. They even had a romantic relationship I believe. "Don't you at least recognize me?" is a weird thing to say in the movie though, unless they're alluding to a backstory for them similar to the comics. Or maybe I misheard her and she said something completely different.
She's asking if he recognized her because they'd had encounters before in TSW (the film).
Yeah that's how I took that, also prior to that he was docile and not going all murdery on Cap and friends.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
The bomb situation in Lagos was a straight up Trolley Problem. There was a bomb that had already exploded and the choice was where the explosive effects would be felt. Somehow blaming the whole thing on Wanda and going so far as to say she was the one who killed people is pretty dubious. Is the argument that she didn't try hard enough to contain the explosion or that she chose to throw it into the building as opposed to some location well away from any buildings?
Things about The Raft:
1) It seems to have been built in about a week, or it had been in the works for a while and the powers that be were just waiting for a chance to spring the Accords on people. And you know the damn thing had to have had some Stark input, lord knows he wasn't at all surprised or uncomfortable when he went there.
2) The only people we saw in there were the good guys. Which might have been a bit of a missed opportunity on Marvel's part. Either that or this place was only built to hold heroes and the baddies I assume get a bullet in the back of the head.
3) So how exactly are they holding Wanda? She's a telekinetic with spooky mind powers, do they electro-zap her if anything fishy happens? And why are Ant-Man and Falcon stuck in such a hole? Their powers come entirely from technology that someone else designed, without that they're a skilled B&E guy and an ex-military PTSD counselor, respectively.
4) Sticking a bunch of heroes in an underwater prison seems like a gilded invitation to Hydra or similar to roll in, open a few valves, and drown everyone.
Falcon at least is a pretty badass fighter without his suit. He's just way more badass with it.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The bomb situation in Lagos was a straight up Trolley Problem. There was a bomb that had already exploded and the choice was where the explosive effects would be felt. Somehow blaming the whole thing on Wanda and going so far as to say she was the one who killed people is pretty dubious. Is the argument that she didn't try hard enough to contain the explosion or that she chose to throw it into the building as opposed to some location well away from any buildings?
Things about The Raft:
1) It seems to have been built in about a week, or it had been in the works for a while and the powers that be were just waiting for a chance to spring the Accords on people. And you know the damn thing had to have had some Stark input, lord knows he wasn't at all surprised or uncomfortable when he went there.
2) The only people we saw in there were the good guys. Which might have been a bit of a missed opportunity on Marvel's part. Either that or this place was only built to hold heroes and the baddies I assume get a bullet in the back of the head.
3) So how exactly are they holding Wanda? She's a telekinetic with spooky mind powers, do they electro-zap her if anything fishy happens? And why are Ant-Man and Falcon stuck in such a hole? Their powers come entirely from technology that someone else designed, without that they're a skilled B&E guy and an ex-military PTSD counselor, respectively.
4) Sticking a bunch of heroes in an underwater prison seems like a gilded invitation to Hydra or similar to roll in, open a few valves, and drown everyone.
Falcon at least is a pretty badass fighter without his suit. He's just way more badass with it.
He's badass, but nothing crazy enough that they'd need to lock him up in an underwater supermax designed to hold people with actual superpowers. Hawkeye and Black Widow have crazy super spy levels of training, so I can sort of see them being stuck in there, but Falcon isn't that far off from any other Special Forces type guy.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
Jailed is exactly the right word. Wait, no, because jailed implies some sort of judicial justification and legal process. The only reason it didn't escalate to violence earlier is because Wanda didn't push the issue and try to leave. It was made pretty damn clear that Vision wasn't going to let her leave and when Clint showed up, Vision didn't go and say, "Well, if you really feel that strongly about leaving, I'll let you go; but I'll tag along, OK?" He moved to stop her, and needed to be dropped into the sub^n-basement in order for them to leave the building.
Just because Vision wasn't being played by Kathy Bates doesn't mean that Wanda's situation wasn't seriously messed up.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I don't think I liked Civil War as much as everyone else
it mostly just made me upset
Some people are allergic to good things. I'm sorry you have to watch exclusively DC movies.
The DC movies are fucking awful, what's with this crazy marvel fan bullshit where if you dislike anything about any Marvel movie you have to suck DC movie dick
The more I sit on Civil War the more I like it, but it just wasn't pleasant, the plot didn't sit right with me because it turned so many of the good guys into bad guys
Before I watched it I liked Iron man and War Machine (or is he Iron Patriot?) and Vision and now I dislike all 3 of them and have little interest in future movies featuring them
In a way, this is some of the best, most sincere praise a Civil War film could have.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
I don't think I liked Civil War as much as everyone else
it mostly just made me upset
Some people are allergic to good things. I'm sorry you have to watch exclusively DC movies.
The DC movies are fucking awful, what's with this crazy marvel fan bullshit where if you dislike anything about any Marvel movie you have to suck DC movie dick
The more I sit on Civil War the more I like it, but it just wasn't pleasant, the plot didn't sit right with me because it turned so many of the good guys into bad guys
Before I watched it I liked Iron man and War Machine (or is he Iron Patriot?) and Vision and now I dislike all 3 of them and have little interest in future movies featuring them
In a way, this is some of the best, most sincere praise a Civil War film could have.
I thought that Tony was being Tony. You kinda got to love and hate him.
But Rhodey was a dick in this film. His little line "Congrats Cap now you're a criminal" after he had saved Bucky from being slaughtered by a police hit squad pretty much killed the character for me, and I wasn't exactly a big fan before that. By the time he got nailed by Vision I was like "Congrats Rhodey now you're a gimp".
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
In Winter Soldier, Widow is the one who name drops Winter Soldier as a 'ghost' in the intelligence community, retelling an incident where she was shot that she attributes to him. But she's never met him. They tangle a bit during the highway action sequence. At the end of the film she presents Cap with some files she was able to get on Winter Solder from Kiev contacts. There's no suggestion that they trained together or anything
No, I know that. In the comics, they were apparently trained in the same program. They even had a romantic relationship I believe. "Don't you at least recognize me?" is a weird thing to say in the movie though, unless they're alluding to a backstory for them similar to the comics. Or maybe I misheard her and she said something completely different.
She's asking if he recognized her because they'd had encounters before in TSW (the film).
Yeah that's how I took that, also prior to that he was docile and not going all murdery on Cap and friends.
I think it was partially irritation. She's fought him twice in her life, both times he's shot her and nearly killed her, and here they are fighting once again and there's no recognition in his eyes. There's something insulting about it when the guy trying to kill you doesn't even seem to notice you exist, no matter how many times you've tangled.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
Yeah, Vision probably did the wall thing to everybody until told not to. Kind of line how a cat doesn't realize you don't want to cuddle when you're pooping.
Tofystedeth on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
There are multiple times throughout this movie where Cap could have just tried to talk to Tony, given him something, and just stonewalled.
I mean, it's pretty clear that Tony knows exactly where what is happening is going, and tries to bypass it, and Cap just does not care about the consequences.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don't think I liked Civil War as much as everyone else
it mostly just made me upset
Some people are allergic to good things. I'm sorry you have to watch exclusively DC movies.
The DC movies are fucking awful, what's with this crazy marvel fan bullshit where if you dislike anything about any Marvel movie you have to suck DC movie dick
The more I sit on Civil War the more I like it, but it just wasn't pleasant, the plot didn't sit right with me because it turned so many of the good guys into bad guys
Before I watched it I liked Iron man and War Machine (or is he Iron Patriot?) and Vision and now I dislike all 3 of them and have little interest in future movies featuring them
In a way, this is some of the best, most sincere praise a Civil War film could have.
I thought that Tony was being Tony. You kinda got to love and hate him.
But Rhodey was a dick in this film. His little line "Congrats Cap now you're a criminal" after he had saved Bucky from being slaughtered by a police hit squad pretty much killed the character for me, and I wasn't exactly a big fan before that. By the time he got nailed by Vision I was like "Congrats Rhodey now you're a gimp".
Cap is kinda a big part of the Avengers, and him doing what he did causes a massive hit to credibility.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
Could she have left without violence? Because even though she was capable of dropping Vision and walking out, the fact that that is what would have been required means she's a prisoner, just an ineffectual secured one.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
Could she have left without violence? Because even though she was capable of dropping Vision and walking out, the fact that that is what would have been required means she's a prisoner, just an ineffectual secured one.
Well that question cuts to the heart of it. I think it was intentionally ambiguous. My read of Vision is that he isn't going to resort to violence to stop Wanda but that is just a gut feeling on my part based on how he's acted towards here elsewhere in the movie.
I thought Cap was kind of a douche in the movie. Tony just seemed like the team was all he had left, and he was doing everything in his power to keep the group together. He even told Cap that he could just sign the accords, let the public fear and distrust die down, and then they could hash out a better compromise with amendments. I think the best case would be to get Ross out of the picture, and have Tony be the appointed liaison between The Avengers and The UN. When the team feels like they need to take care of something, Tony could bring in Cap to make a case to The UN.
Except now Cap has fucked everything up.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
Rhodey wasnt being a jerk, he was being "disappointed". Hell, Cap and Bucky just took out an entire German special forces team, and then proceeded to run through part of downtown wrecking stuff. Blowing up cars and tunnels.....
Rhodey's point was that if he would have signed, they'd still have Bucky, and things would proceed as needed, just...he wouldn't have been a criminal.
like "Congrats dude, all this effort to be a hero and all you've done is make yourself a criminal, and do the exact thing the Accords (and by extension those nations) didnt want you to do."
and EVEN THEN all Cap got was a slap on the wrist and his toys taken away.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
Oh, you mean preventing the illegal extra-judicial assassination of a criminal suspect who hasn't been proven guilty yet? And after doing that, getting told that you can no longer take actions to save the world. That, to abide by the rules, means watching a madman activate and command four of the most dangerous and super-human individuals in the world?
I thought Cap was kind of a douche in the movie. Tony just seemed like the team was all he had left, and he was doing everything in his power to keep the group together. He even told Cap that he could just sign the accords, let the public fear and distrust die down, and then they could hash out a better compromise with amendments. I think the best case would be to get Ross out of the picture, and have Tony be the appointed liaison between The Avengers and The UN. When the team feels like they need to take care of something, Tony could bring in Cap to make a case to The UN.
Except now Cap has fucked everything up.
Naw it's okay that this law is bad
We'll totally fix it some day when everything is just right.
Totally
Cap may have been frozen for years but he wasn't born yesterday, that's the kind of shit that gets people to sit down and stop agitating for rights because as long as they can wait it'll happen someday.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't recall anyone saying that the Accords means the Avengers have to stop Avenging.
They just mean that they cant Avenge in whatever country they feel like Avenging without someone (in that country/UN) saying it was ok.
Yes they can only fight the bad guys that they are allowed to fight.
They don't have to stop, but the decision of when and where to go is out of their hands.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
Oh, you mean preventing the illegal extra-judicial assassination of a criminal suspect who hasn't been proven guilty yet? And after doing that, getting told that you can no longer take actions to save the world. That, to abide by the rules, means watching a madman activate and command four of the most dangerous and super-human individuals in the world?
Except it wasn't in any way, shape, or form illegal because Bucky was a foreign terrorist in a country who had declared him an active threat and ordered him taken out? If Osama Bin Laden was found armed in Chicago in the hours after 9/11, do you really think George W Bush wouldn't have ordered a Special Forces team to take him out? And do you really think anyone would have gone on about how it was illegal?
Because in the movie, that's the situation that the German government is dealing with.
I don't recall anyone saying that the Accords means the Avengers have to stop Avenging.
They just mean that they cant Avenge in whatever country they feel like Avenging without someone (in that country/UN) saying it was ok.
Yes they can only fight the bad guys that they are allowed to fight.
They don't have to stop, but the decision of when and where to go is out of their hands.
And into the hands of governments that have already proven to be compromised an outside force at least once, and could actually be already compromised. I'll trust captain america over some politicos at the UN.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I don't recall anyone saying that the Accords means the Avengers have to stop Avenging.
They just mean that they cant Avenge in whatever country they feel like Avenging without someone (in that country/UN) saying it was ok.
Yes they can only fight the bad guys that they are allowed to fight.
They don't have to stop, but the decision of when and where to go is out of their hands.
Which isn't especially bad.
Cap essentially wants free reign to do what he thinks is right. Which everyone can think is all fine and good since it's Cap but that doesn't make for especially great precedent.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
Prisons are only as good as their locks. That doesn't change the fact that they're prisons.
We don't know what Vision's marching orders were, but we definitely know what they weren't. He wasn't supposed to have a reasoned discussion with Wanda about the need for her seclusion for safety reasons, he was supposed to lurk around and distract or dissuade her when she considered leaving. We don't know what he was authorized or willing to do beyond that.
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No, I know that. In the comics, they were apparently trained in the same program. They even had a romantic relationship I believe. "Don't you at least recognize me?" is a weird thing to say in the movie though, unless they're alluding to a backstory for them similar to the comics. Or maybe I misheard her and she said something completely different.
Yep. Wanda might have been more cooperative if Tony had talked to her and simply asked "Hey, things are crazy right now, can you just lay low? I'm worried some idiot's going to come at you if you go out in public and if you defend yourself people will just use it as an excuse to yell about you on TV for another day."
Well, maybe not Tony, I'm not sure how friendly he and Wanda are, but if Tony had sat down with her and Steve to talk about it, that might have been better.
Wanda was not charged under any of the legal frameworks that already exist, because if she was we can reasonably assume it would have come up in the discussions in the movie. As such, the arbiters of those legal systems had determined that she committed no crime. Unsatisfied with this, Tony created a secret prison and threw the non-citizen that had been declined prosecution by all legal entities involved into it. Then he signed on to the accords out of guilt that he assumed everyone else should be feeling as well.
If the accords were about creating a better framework for international after action judgements on Avengers activities, I'd be in board and so would Cap I think. But they start at secret prisons with no due process and potentially end with the next Hydra calling the shots for the world's only super team. There's no part of that continuum that is acceptable.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
No, that doesn't bring anyone back from the dead, and not just her actions but the immense guilt/trauma she's expressed because of it are excellent reasons to see to it that she gets help and is taken off active duty.
But just because she has extraordinary abilities, I think it's a bit far to expect her to be infinitely capable. Like, let's step back from comic or real world comparisons; it's a movie. She couldn't save everyone not because she chose poorly or her powers weren't strong enough, it went down that way because the plot demanded it. Debating (as we have in even earlier pages) that Team Cap should've backed down and followed them or whatever falls apart simply because the plot demanded bad shit go down and people die in the first act. It could've been Falcon accidentally clipping a cable leading to a structure collapsing or Tony dropping a pile of ordinance on the wrong target or Cap simply being wrong (tactically) for once and getting a bunch of hostages killed.
They're hyper competent and unstoppable when the action sequence demands it, and they fail or fall short when dramatic tension requires it.
Tony putting her under house arrest, even if for her own good, should've been something they talked out. And yes, I'm sure it would've been potentially a difficult (if not scary) conversation to have with someone who is potentially one of the most powerful people on Earth, but putting another A-Tier force on jailer duty rather than simply having a gentle discussion about wanting to make sure she's okay and establishing a framework for that seems infinitely preferable to making the decision for her.
Sorry, I'm not trying to demand a change to the conversation, but the pages of debate as to the starting point for the film seem rather off base to me; there needed to be a starting point for the film. How we got there was unfortunate, but it was going to happen somehow. How people reacted following that, how they were manipulated into fighting one another, how the world tried to legislate them into line with allegedly (as per Tony) some wiggle room/negotiating space and then went Full Gitmo on them after they ruined an airport in a conflict, sure that seems like there were some poor choices made.
But Wanda was a tipping point because there needed to be a tipping point.
The Accords didn't actually start at the Raft, Cap just escalated things ro the point where that was where they were.
I was under the impression that the Accords were absolutely a legal framework so that people like Tony didn't have to cobble together justifications for why the Avengers should be allowed to operate with impunity.
I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Which was probably the point.
Good thing it wasn't comic book Civil War or the shock collar would have been somewhere other than her neck!
She's asking if he recognized her because they'd had encounters before in TSW (the film).
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Things about The Raft:
1) It seems to have been built in about a week, or it had been in the works for a while and the powers that be were just waiting for a chance to spring the Accords on people. And you know the damn thing had to have had some Stark input, lord knows he wasn't at all surprised or uncomfortable when he went there.
2) The only people we saw in there were the good guys. Which might have been a bit of a missed opportunity on Marvel's part. Either that or this place was only built to hold heroes and the baddies I assume get a bullet in the back of the head.
3) So how exactly are they holding Wanda? She's a telekinetic with spooky mind powers, do they electro-zap her if anything fishy happens? And why are Ant-Man and Falcon stuck in such a hole? Their powers come entirely from technology that someone else designed, without that they're a skilled B&E guy and an ex-military PTSD counselor, respectively.
4) Sticking a bunch of heroes in an underwater prison seems like a gilded invitation to Hydra or similar to roll in, open a few valves, and drown everyone.
Yeah that's how I took that, also prior to that he was docile and not going all murdery on Cap and friends.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
Falcon at least is a pretty badass fighter without his suit. He's just way more badass with it.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
He's badass, but nothing crazy enough that they'd need to lock him up in an underwater supermax designed to hold people with actual superpowers. Hawkeye and Black Widow have crazy super spy levels of training, so I can sort of see them being stuck in there, but Falcon isn't that far off from any other Special Forces type guy.
Jailed is exactly the right word. Wait, no, because jailed implies some sort of judicial justification and legal process. The only reason it didn't escalate to violence earlier is because Wanda didn't push the issue and try to leave. It was made pretty damn clear that Vision wasn't going to let her leave and when Clint showed up, Vision didn't go and say, "Well, if you really feel that strongly about leaving, I'll let you go; but I'll tag along, OK?" He moved to stop her, and needed to be dropped into the sub^n-basement in order for them to leave the building.
Just because Vision wasn't being played by Kathy Bates doesn't mean that Wanda's situation wasn't seriously messed up.
In a way, this is some of the best, most sincere praise a Civil War film could have.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
I thought that Tony was being Tony. You kinda got to love and hate him.
But Rhodey was a dick in this film. His little line "Congrats Cap now you're a criminal" after he had saved Bucky from being slaughtered by a police hit squad pretty much killed the character for me, and I wasn't exactly a big fan before that. By the time he got nailed by Vision I was like "Congrats Rhodey now you're a gimp".
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
I think it was partially irritation. She's fought him twice in her life, both times he's shot her and nearly killed her, and here they are fighting once again and there's no recognition in his eyes. There's something insulting about it when the guy trying to kill you doesn't even seem to notice you exist, no matter how many times you've tangled.
Yeah, Vision probably did the wall thing to everybody until told not to. Kind of line how a cat doesn't realize you don't want to cuddle when you're pooping.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
There are multiple times throughout this movie where Cap could have just tried to talk to Tony, given him something, and just stonewalled.
I mean, it's pretty clear that Tony knows exactly where what is happening is going, and tries to bypass it, and Cap just does not care about the consequences.
Cap is kinda a big part of the Avengers, and him doing what he did causes a massive hit to credibility.
Could she have left without violence? Because even though she was capable of dropping Vision and walking out, the fact that that is what would have been required means she's a prisoner, just an ineffectual secured one.
Well that question cuts to the heart of it. I think it was intentionally ambiguous. My read of Vision is that he isn't going to resort to violence to stop Wanda but that is just a gut feeling on my part based on how he's acted towards here elsewhere in the movie.
Except now Cap has fucked everything up.
Rhodey's point was that if he would have signed, they'd still have Bucky, and things would proceed as needed, just...he wouldn't have been a criminal.
like "Congrats dude, all this effort to be a hero and all you've done is make yourself a criminal, and do the exact thing the Accords (and by extension those nations) didnt want you to do."
and EVEN THEN all Cap got was a slap on the wrist and his toys taken away.
Oh, you mean preventing the illegal extra-judicial assassination of a criminal suspect who hasn't been proven guilty yet? And after doing that, getting told that you can no longer take actions to save the world. That, to abide by the rules, means watching a madman activate and command four of the most dangerous and super-human individuals in the world?
Naw it's okay that this law is bad
We'll totally fix it some day when everything is just right.
Totally
Cap may have been frozen for years but he wasn't born yesterday, that's the kind of shit that gets people to sit down and stop agitating for rights because as long as they can wait it'll happen someday.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
They just mean that they cant Avenge in whatever country they feel like Avenging without someone (in that country/UN) saying it was ok.
Yes they can only fight the bad guys that they are allowed to fight.
They don't have to stop, but the decision of when and where to go is out of their hands.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Except it wasn't in any way, shape, or form illegal because Bucky was a foreign terrorist in a country who had declared him an active threat and ordered him taken out? If Osama Bin Laden was found armed in Chicago in the hours after 9/11, do you really think George W Bush wouldn't have ordered a Special Forces team to take him out? And do you really think anyone would have gone on about how it was illegal?
Because in the movie, that's the situation that the German government is dealing with.
And into the hands of governments that have already proven to be compromised an outside force at least once, and could actually be already compromised. I'll trust captain america over some politicos at the UN.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Which isn't especially bad.
Cap essentially wants free reign to do what he thinks is right. Which everyone can think is all fine and good since it's Cap but that doesn't make for especially great precedent.
Prisons are only as good as their locks. That doesn't change the fact that they're prisons.
We don't know what Vision's marching orders were, but we definitely know what they weren't. He wasn't supposed to have a reasoned discussion with Wanda about the need for her seclusion for safety reasons, he was supposed to lurk around and distract or dissuade her when she considered leaving. We don't know what he was authorized or willing to do beyond that.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.