I was referring to Wanda, who was illegally jailed well after the accords were signed and none of the people involved said anything about her human rights.
Mmm......I think "jailed" is a bit of a strong term there. It's how Steve interpreted it but mostly I recall Vision just strongly encouraging her to stay there. Now neither of them really pushed the issue but that's not quite jailed.
I also think it's interesting that it only escalated to violence when Clint showed up and he absolutely "threw the first punch" as it were.
We don't really have an answer as to how far the unstoppable space robot with Ultron's other brain would have gone to keep Wanda in the compound. Other than that he was willing to power up and fight Hawkeye for coming and getting her rather than standing down and letting her make her own call.
Vision knew that Clint was no threat to anyone there, even with the break in.
Well unstoppable unless you're the "prisoner" in question who just decided to throw him deep into the ground. That sorta underscores the point she was a "prisoner" only because she chose to be which rather strains the meaning of "prisoner".
It's now been two weeks since I saw it but I seem to recall Vision coming back in, starting to say something scolding Clint and then ELECTROTRAP. At which point Vision responded to Clint.
Clint was clearly treating it like a prison break while Vision really didn't.
Though on the unrelated note, the thing was pretty icky combined with where they're obviously taking Wanda/Vision. I think this and the room thing were meant to be Vision being like a year old rather than creepiness but I can certainly see how you could read it as creepy instead.
Could she have left without violence? Because even though she was capable of dropping Vision and walking out, the fact that that is what would have been required means she's a prisoner, just an ineffectual secured one.
Well that question cuts to the heart of it. I think it was intentionally ambiguous. My read of Vision is that he isn't going to resort to violence to stop Wanda but that is just a gut feeling on my part based on how he's acted towards here elsewhere in the movie.
And I got more of a HAL 9000 "I'm sorry Wanda, I can't let you do that." vibe. It's open to interpretation. Though I think that's why they had Clint instigate the violence, because otherwise Vision would become a straight killbot to the audience.
I thought Cap was kind of a douche in the movie. Tony just seemed like the team was all he had left, and he was doing everything in his power to keep the group together. He even told Cap that he could just sign the accords, let the public fear and distrust die down, and then they could hash out a better compromise with amendments. I think the best case would be to get Ross out of the picture, and have Tony be the appointed liaison between The Avengers and The UN. When the team feels like they need to take care of something, Tony could bring in Cap to make a case to The UN.
Except now Cap has fucked everything up.
Problem is if you're genre savvy, the whole 'sign now, make changes later when people chill' is an obvious trap, and if you're not genre savvy and have just paid attention to how the UN lumbers along, then you know any amendments will take years to be implemented, at best.
Best case would have been to bring in the Avengers when they were drafting the accords, but everyone acting 100% rationally isn't the best way to get drama going sometimes.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
Oh, you mean preventing the illegal extra-judicial assassination of a criminal suspect who hasn't been proven guilty yet? And after doing that, getting told that you can no longer take actions to save the world. That, to abide by the rules, means watching a madman activate and command four of the most dangerous and super-human individuals in the world?
Except it wasn't in any way, shape, or form illegal because Bucky was a foreign terrorist in a country who had declared him an active threat and ordered him taken out? If Osama Bin Laden was found armed in Chicago in the hours after 9/11, do you really think George W Bush wouldn't have ordered a Special Forces team to take him out? And do you really think anyone would have gone on about how it was illegal?
Because in the movie, that's the situation that the German government is dealing with.
EDIT: I'd also like to say its kind of funny, because that's the one thing that would have completely destroyed Zemo's attempt to destroy the Avengers. If the authorities had actually killed Bucky, Cap would have been upset, but he would have been angry at Germany, not at Tony. Tony would have probably been understanding, and have tried to make even greater amends than he did when Cap came in. And if evidence came out that Bucky was innocent, Tony totally would have jumped ship to Cap's side.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
Pretty sure if Bucky was killed under the authority of the accords, than Cap would not have just like shrugged it off. Especially since Tony was involved with that operation.
Also I'd trust Commander China if he already selflessly saved the world thrice over. Well that and if he looked like Captain america. I mean come on I'm only human.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
So I really liked what they did with Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers. After the last Cap movie, there was that lil' trend in the MCU that a villain more often than not would be associated with Hydra. It is just expected that Cap will be fighting a surprise Hydra agent at this point. So putting in one of the last big heads of Hydra but having him just be a regular dude was a nice twist.
Similarly, I was so ready for the end of the movie to be Cap and Iron Man putting aside their argument to fight a greater threat. So when the other Winter Soldiers show up, it's like oh well, here's the rest of the movie. Then they're despatched off screen. Nope. Cap vs Iron Man is indeed the whole story, no easy ending duck tape fix for it.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
Pretty sure if Bucky was killed under the authority of the accords, than Cap would not have just like shrugged it off. Especially since Tony was involved with that operation.
Also I'd trust Commander China if he already selflessly saved the world thrice over. Well that and if he looked like Captain america. I mean come on I'm only human.
Oh he totally did there's news reports and everything.
What I'm saying is it's very easy from the point of view of the audience to think that obviously Captain America should be able to do whatever he wants. We know him on a level pretty much no one in the fictional universe does. But that's not an especially reasonable way to expect the rest of the fictional world to react.
Not only did they lock her up, but they wrapped her in a straight jacket and had a collar on her neck, that was either an electroshock collar or a device used to blow a hole in her neck.
By that point she had just helped destroy an airport. And her track record previously did not make her seem trustworthy.
Team Tony was an equal participant in the destruction of that airport, and yet they weren't also locked-up.
They were trying to help a guy that was a known assassin and also suspected of bombing the UN and assassinating a head of state escape. Cap was the instigator of the conflict in every way.
Oh, you mean preventing the illegal extra-judicial assassination of a criminal suspect who hasn't been proven guilty yet? And after doing that, getting told that you can no longer take actions to save the world. That, to abide by the rules, means watching a madman activate and command four of the most dangerous and super-human individuals in the world?
Except it wasn't in any way, shape, or form illegal because Bucky was a foreign terrorist in a country who had declared him an active threat and ordered him taken out? If Osama Bin Laden was found armed in Chicago in the hours after 9/11, do you really think George W Bush wouldn't have ordered a Special Forces team to take him out? And do you really think anyone would have gone on about how it was illegal?
Because in the movie, that's the situation that the German government is dealing with.
The extra-judicial killing of suspected terrorists is widely controversial, and is of highly questionable legality (which doesn't actually stop the administration from doing it though).
The killing of Osama Bin Laden is even in a gray area legally. The administration argued that as head of an organization in an ongoing "war" against the US, that he was considered an enemy field commander. Many legal experts disagreed with that analysis by Holder. In the end it mostly came down to the fact that Bin Laden was reaching for a weapon or had one in his hands, leading more to a self-defense argument. If he had had his hands up and had attempted to surrender, killing him would have been highly illegal. Either way, Pakistan, and the international backed down, despite the legality of what happened on their soil. Now I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, just that the action was and is legally questionable. Again, most arguments come down to this being a "war" setting of two forces clashing.
The Winter Soldier is not, and cannot be considered an enemy as part of an ongoing "war".
Hell, it's five years later, and the US Government is still in litigation over the legality of killing a US Citizen Anwar al-Awlaki.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
Which, clearly, the Avengers haven't been paying attention to. Captain America and the Mighty Avengers is no different than Commander China and the Radical Revolutionaries.
So I really liked what they did with Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers. After the last Cap movie, there was that lil' trend in the MCU that a villain more often than not would be associated with Hydra. It is just expected that Cap will be fighting a surprise Hydra agent at this point. So putting in one of the last big heads of Hydra but having him just be a regular dude was a nice twist.
Similarly, I was so ready for the end of the movie to be Cap and Iron Man putting aside their argument to fight a greater threat. So when the other Winter Soldiers show up, it's like oh well, here's the rest of the movie. Then they're despatched off screen. Nope. Cap vs Iron Man is indeed the whole story, no easy ending duck tape fix for it.
Some real nice subversion of expectations
Yea i loved that Zemo said he absolutely didnt want more Winter Soldiers running around so he took them out. Brilliant, and i didnt see it coming.
Pretty sure if Bucky was killed under the authority of the accords, than Cap would not have just like shrugged it off. Especially since Tony was involved with that operation.
Also I'd trust Commander China if he already selflessly saved the world thrice over. Well that and if he looked like Captain america. I mean come on I'm only human.
Oh he totally did there's news reports and everything.
What I'm saying is it's very easy from the point of view of the audience to think that obviously Captain America should be able to do whatever he wants. We know him on a level pretty much no one in the fictional universe does. But that's not an especially reasonable way to expect the rest of the fictional world to react.
Bullshit quid he's CAPTAIN America. People don't just get made to be a captain! He's also a captain of America, a country known for its calm judgement and sure handed guidance in troubled times.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
And those courts weren't getting anything done. Not surprisingly, countries that weren't America weren't thrilled with American super soldiers operating as they liked. Those countries proposed an international agreement that strengthened restrictions that existed. And then they signed them. Which is p reasonable.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
Which, clearly, the Avengers haven't been paying attention to. Captain America and the Mighty Avengers is no different than Commander China and the Radical Revolutionaries.
Its all perspective.
Or that no one has brought charges, for reasons up to and including the fact that having the Avengers on scene was far better than not.
Hell, Wakanda is totally within their rights as a sovereign nation to sue Cap & Co in international court over the deaths of their missionaries. They choose not to for some reason, but it's not entirely clear why. Especially since the individual that is generally pointed to as potentially being culpable, Wanda, doesn't really have any expectation of protection from a government strong enough to avoid extradition.
Countries solve disputes over border crossings and military actions every day, and often do so with non-governmental actors as well. There's absolutely no indication in this movie that such methods were even attempted, which would cause me to question the legitimacy of the concerns being voiced. If I push for legislation based on the idea that someone keeps breaking into my house, but I've never reported it to the police, that would make my motives and actions look very suspicious. Wakanda in particular looks pretty shady in how this goes down.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
And those courts weren't getting anything done. Not surprisingly, countries that weren't America weren't thrilled with American super soldiers operating as they liked. Those countries proposed an international agreement that strengthened restrictions that existed. And then they signed them. Which is p reasonable.
Wanda's not an American. It's not entirely clear that Natasha is either.
In Wanda's case, there's absolutely no reason to expect the US to step up and protect her legally, and Tony alludes to such in the conversation with Cap.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
And those courts weren't getting anything done. Not surprisingly, countries that weren't America weren't thrilled with American super soldiers operating as they liked. Those countries proposed an international agreement that strengthened restrictions that existed. And then they signed them. Which is p reasonable.
Wanda's not an American. It's not entirely clear that Natasha is either.
In Wanda's case, there's absolutely no reason to expect the US to step up and protect her legally, and Tony alludes to such in the conversation with Cap.
She's not an American citizen, just someone working for an American's private military organization with zero accountability and no way to be reached to be held accountable.
I love Captain America. He's a great guy and the Avengers do great things. What the world doesn't need is more privatized militaries doing what they please so long as it's "right." Him being a super nice guy doesn't make it so.
30 pages of back and forth. Damn they really knocked it out of the park with this one didn't they?
Quick thoughts:
Tony's hubris: he cannot not act. He said it himself, "I don't want to quit." Steve's hubris: he cannot not act. Interestingly, it was Tony who called him on this. To paraphrase, Steve said "I can't walk away when I see a situation going south, even if I want to", and Tony said "But you don't want to."
I was trying to figure out why Clint would jump into this shit storm (I know the real reason is because Movie). After Sokovia and watching Pietro get killed, he decided to call it quits. He was getting to indulge himself and his family. Sure, he may have been getting bored, but there's lots of ways to get that adrenaline fix without resorting to becoming an internationally wanted criminal. Even if he is devoted to Cap, he could have said "I support your decision, but I can't get involved". The reason Clint jumped in is the same reason Cap did all of this: Bucky. Specifically, Bucky had nearly every government in the world after his head for things he did while mind controlled. That's the hook that Cap used to get Barton in on this, and now Clint can possibly never see his family again. Fuck you Steve for dragging in the guy who did what you could not, here's your asshole badge.
Poor, starstruck Scott Lang. He had his daughter back at the end of his movie, and it's all fucked again. He got sent back to prison, the very reason his wife cut contact between him and his daughter. Another man lost his family, and another child lost their dad, thanks to Cap. Here's another asshole badge, Steve! The one silver lining is it's doubtful Pym is going come down on Scott much for this. Pym might even pat him on the back for sticking it to a Stark!
Everyone who signed on with Cap did so because it was right. They're adults, they get to make their own decisions. You don't get to blame Cap for that.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Its just a bunch of posters throwing out ridiculous bullshit now that the reign of Spoilers is over, hoping for only Satans bunghole could guess what.
A pat on the back for a well played game of one-upmanship?
Spoiler: Snyder to direct Infinity War 1 and 2. Now just retitled "Death War Gun Zone: The Broodening".
I heard Bay and Abrams were going to co-direct, in order to make sure the movies met their quota of explosions and lens flares.
Abrams is unfairly maligned for lens flare. The Star Trek flare was a legit choice which resonated with the themes adressed in the source material. Wars is the perfect example in proving it right
Not really?
Unless that legit choice is, keep the viewer from being able to see what is going on. Then sure?
@Morkath yes actually. The Star Trek future is so bright and shiny it's hard to look at. Abrahms never had an "issue" in any other movie.
Like, Commander China and the People's Revolutionaries roll in, blow up a chunk of Seattle, and take off with a U.S. citizen to interrogate for the safety of the world probably wouldn't go over as well. But by insisting the Avengers have free reign to do what Cap thinks is right opens up the U.S. to stuff like that.
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
And those courts weren't getting anything done. Not surprisingly, countries that weren't America weren't thrilled with American super soldiers operating as they liked. Those countries proposed an international agreement that strengthened restrictions that existed. And then they signed them. Which is p reasonable.
Wanda's not an American. It's not entirely clear that Natasha is either.
In Wanda's case, there's absolutely no reason to expect the US to step up and protect her legally, and Tony alludes to such in the conversation with Cap.
She's not an American citizen, just someone working for an American's private military organization with zero accountability and no way to be reached to be held accountable.
I love Captain America. He's a great guy and the Avengers do great things. What the world doesn't need is more privatized militaries doing what they please so long as it's "right." Him being a super nice guy doesn't make it so.
I'm predicating precisely 0% of my argument on Cap being a cool dude.
There's no mention of any sort of legal action having been taken by any country before the Accords hit the desk at the Avengers staff meeting. None whatsoever. Wall to wall media coverage is shown, but it's all about the events themselves. They don't even mention any sort of attempt by the countries that have seen this sort of action to hold the Avengers accountable legally when they're outlining the necessity of the Accords, which seems completely crazy if they're pointing to how such a system is inadequate.
And I can see how it might be, sure. But the jump from total legal apathy to secret prisons without process absolutely destroys any sense of legitimacy for this thing. As I've said before, instituting a system where there's an after action hearing for the incidents and protocols for censuring team members is totally reasonable. We don't get any of that in the film. The first act of the accords is a shoot on sight order for Bucky and a shrug at Wanda being held without process. It's pretty clear from the get-go that this whole thing is rigged beyond usefulness.
Everyone who signed on with Cap did so because it was right. They're adults, they get to make their own decisions. You don't get to blame Cap for that.
Lang and Parker were both pretty star-struck. They're relative nobodies and Captain America (or Tony Stark) said that they needed their help. Unless step two involved being given a can of gas, matches, and a map to the local orphanage, they weren't likely to exercise a whole lot of critical thinking about the situation.
This doesn't absolve them of responsibility, but you can't quite blow everything off by saying they're adults and made their own decisions.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Parker I can buy, especially considering his situation and I alluded to him being child soldiered above. Scott Lang is not a child, and it was Barton who picked him up, so if anything he was on board with helping Cap because he's Cap! Hell with the way Scott seemed asleep/knocked out Clint might not have used the most honest methods in getting him on board. But that's not on Cap! That's on Clint for being Clint.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Clint and Scott were definitely the two who had me cringing inwardly over their involvement. Scott just got his daughter back and now he's breaking international law with a pre-existing record. Clint has a family and his wife doesn't seem to work, so they're financially supported by either some sort of government pension or the standard Stark Living Wage like the comics, either of which is likely gone now.
I don't think anyone else on the team has family, at least close family.
I get that they wanted to make a principled stand, and I can appreciate that. But they've got responsibilities beyond the life, and they should have taken that into account.
Parker I can buy, especially considering his situation and I alluded to him being child soldiered above. Scott Lang is not a child, and it was Barton who picked him up, so if anything he was on board with helping Cap because he's Cap! Hell with the way Scott seemed asleep/knocked out Clint might not have used the most honest methods in getting him on board. But that's not on Cap! That's on Clint for being Clint.
If you hand a recovering alcoholic a beer and ask him to drink with you, do you not have some culpability?
Clint said he's getting bored. He's been in the life so long for so hard he's having trouble adjusting. He's probably a legitimate adrenaline junky. Given that, yea I place some blame on Cap. Cap definitely earns his asshole badge for asking the retiree in the first place. If Tony can be given crap for bringing in Parker, Steve can be given crap for bringing in Clint.
Scott's situation I honestly can't blame on Cap. We don't know exactly what Scott was told to get him out there, so it may be entirely the case that it's just Scott being drunk on hero worship, which is a flimsy excuse at best. It just tears me up that Cassie lost her daddy again.
You are taking major agency away from Clint. He's an adult who made an adult decision to help his friend. You don't know the conversation he had with his family, or why he decided to do what he wants. It's not at all compareable to what Tony did with Peter.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You are taking major agency away from Clint. He's an adult who made an adult decision to help his friend. You don't know the conversation he had with his family, or why he decided to do what he wants. It's not at all compareable to what Tony did with Peter.
That's true. Laura Barton seems like she is supportive of Clint's job, so he may have had her blessing. I still think Cap is a jerk for asking him in the first place.
I'm sure it was nice to be thought of as someone Cap could call on. You have to remember in the Marvel Universe prior to him reemerging Captain America was a legend who fought Nazis. I'm sure for Clint having a living Legend like him rely on Clint to rescue scarlet witch and get scott lang was pretty awesome. And a far sight better than anything Tony or Not Shield was offering.
I mean Clint only really retired in response to the Accords, and it makes total sense that a guy who lost friends with the Hydra thing wouldn't be on board with an outside government agency being in charge as thats specifically what happened to shield.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Well, the actual problem with bringing in Spiderling is that he's a minor, who technically cannot legally make the decision to leave the U.S. and travel to Germany without his legal guardian's express permission.
Tony almost certainly did not say "Hey, super-hot Aunt May, I'm gonna take your nephew(son) to a foreign country to fight and apprehend one or more enhanced super-soldiers. Pete here wouldn't happened to have suffered any tragedy or deep personal trauma in the recent past, would he? Because there may in fact also be a woman with telekinesis and the ability to inspire horrific visions of the past and future. What's that? Oh, no, it's totes safe because young Peter here has a special danger sense, an enhanced healing factor and durability, and the proportionate strength and speed of a spider. It's really quite spectacular!"
So, Tony Stark was engaged in the endangerment of a child at the very least, and kidnapping at worst, in addition to a laundry list of other offenses just in relation to the recruitment of Peter Parker. He also clearly in no way put as much thought into his reasoning as a bunch of nerds on an internet forum, nor did he give the sixteen-year old boychild anything resembling a balanced representation of the conflict at hand.
In fact, the brief speech Peter makes in his room about "letting the bad things happen" is essentially exactly the philosophy that Steve Rogers espouses. The kind of manipulation it would take to make that child think Captain America is "wrong and dangerous" is mind-boggling and creepy as shit. He's the super-hero equivalent of some kid's cool uncle showing up, buying him a car, and then saying "hey, I need you to cart these guns to Mexico. It's cool, I'll be with you. I'll just tell your ma that we're going to Disneyland."
Dirt. Bag.
Roping Spider-Man of all people into fighting on his side is the best argument that Tony needed to slow his roll and maybe think about listening to somebody other than the always-irate goose-stepper who'd spent years chasing and attempting to kill his science-bro, Bruce Banner (which regularly resulted in the meek scientist involuntarily turning into a giant green rage monster, thus putting Ross to blame for unleashing a walking WMD). He should maybe be questioning his own thought process, but instead gets 'tired of' listening to Cap trying to explain the underlying situation and immediately -immediately- sics a dumb teenager on The Guy Who Defeated Super-Hitler.
Most importantly, Clint called Tony The Futurist, which struck my ears as some kind of Easter egg and I thought maybe that was something Stark went by in the comics (apparently it is, recently)
However, to add a layer to the fun, The Futurist is also the name of Robert Downey Jr's jazz/folk album from 2004. I'm sure that coincidence was pointed out in previous Marvel threads, but it just goes to show that Hawkeye can't seem to miss.
In fact, the brief speech Peter makes in his room about "letting the bad things happen" is essentially exactly the philosophy that Steve Rogers espouses.
People keep saying this, and I 100% agree that it was something Steve or his Uncle Ben would say.
It's not exactly a stretch to say that Tony feels that way too, even if his sound bites don't venture into the realm of fortune cookie wisdom. Specifically think about what he imagined Steve saying when they were all dead in Age of Ultron: "Why didn't you do more?"
In fact, the brief speech Peter makes in his room about "letting the bad things happen" is essentially exactly the philosophy that Steve Rogers espouses.
People keep saying this, and I 100% agree that it was something Steve or his Uncle Ben would say.
It's not exactly a stretch to say that Tony feels that way too, even if his sound bites don't venture into the realm of fortune cookie wisdom. Specifically think about what he imagined Steve saying when they were all dead in Age of Ultron: "Why didn't you do more?"
It's also Steve's primary and first objection to the Accords- that he's not ready to sign an agreement that limits his ability to help others. It's also his reasoning to Wanda. They have to help others, even though their actions may come with a cost (like, say, getting shot while saving a team member and a child).
The thing with treating the Avengers like a private military or as though they're acting like a sovereign authority, is that the Avengers have no interests of their own. They don't fight to protect their own authority, they don't fight to hold land; they don't fight over their financial holdings; they don't fight to maintain alliances; they don't fight for their own gain. They don't even fight common criminals, blue-collar or otherwise- the fight enhanced, superhuman, and extra-legal individuals and organizations that present clear threats to the common good of humanity, that no government (save Wakanda) is prepared or willing to fight.
Steve Rogers isn't out there smashing drug dealers or ventilating mobsters. He isn't out there fighting for America. He isn't fighting for a company or a flag, even though he's wearing one. He isn't fighting to get his jollies. The Avengers aren't enforcing anything, they're literally protecting people, sometimes the world, from threats that basically only they are capable of handling.
Any member of the international community could stop bitching and actually put one or more of them on trial, even before the Accords. But they don't, exactly because of what Natasha said at the end of Winter Soldier: the Avengers are fighting on behalf of the people who can't, and they're the only ones who can do it.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
We weren't shown if he has spider sense or not and were shown evidence to suggest he didn't. But that's also kind of par for the course, since he'd never get hit then. So it's TBD.
He's shown having heightened perception twice. He catches the baseball that Tony fastballs at him, and when he's fighting Bucky, Bucky throws a piece of concrete at the back of his head, and he whips around, catches it, says, "I think you dropped this," and tosses it back.
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And I got more of a HAL 9000 "I'm sorry Wanda, I can't let you do that." vibe. It's open to interpretation. Though I think that's why they had Clint instigate the violence, because otherwise Vision would become a straight killbot to the audience.
Problem is if you're genre savvy, the whole 'sign now, make changes later when people chill' is an obvious trap, and if you're not genre savvy and have just paid attention to how the UN lumbers along, then you know any amendments will take years to be implemented, at best.
Best case would have been to bring in the Avengers when they were drafting the accords, but everyone acting 100% rationally isn't the best way to get drama going sometimes.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Shitty organizations are shitty but Cap's not really providing a solution either.
EDIT: I'd also like to say its kind of funny, because that's the one thing that would have completely destroyed Zemo's attempt to destroy the Avengers. If the authorities had actually killed Bucky, Cap would have been upset, but he would have been angry at Germany, not at Tony. Tony would have probably been understanding, and have tried to make even greater amends than he did when Cap came in. And if evidence came out that Bucky was innocent, Tony totally would have jumped ship to Cap's side.
If this happens now, in the real world, we have systems in place to address it.
Unless international law isn't a thing in the MCU, they do, too.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Also I'd trust Commander China if he already selflessly saved the world thrice over. Well that and if he looked like Captain america. I mean come on I'm only human.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The Sokovia Accords specifically deal with super powered individuals and their private paramilitary organizations. It forced any country to reign in those individuals and not let them come and go as they please. Tony tried to privatize world peace, failed, and the Accords were the result.
Similarly, I was so ready for the end of the movie to be Cap and Iron Man putting aside their argument to fight a greater threat. So when the other Winter Soldiers show up, it's like oh well, here's the rest of the movie. Then they're despatched off screen. Nope. Cap vs Iron Man is indeed the whole story, no easy ending duck tape fix for it.
Some real nice subversion of expectations
There's no indication that the Accords are actually intended to be a framework for continuing the work of the Avengers, though. The only effects we see from them are the incarceration of superheroes who don't sign.
Again, international courts exist and countries can bring charges against people who commit crimes within their borders or against their interests. It's not at all clear that the Accords actually address any of the things that have happened beyond being security theater for the world.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Oh he totally did there's news reports and everything.
What I'm saying is it's very easy from the point of view of the audience to think that obviously Captain America should be able to do whatever he wants. We know him on a level pretty much no one in the fictional universe does. But that's not an especially reasonable way to expect the rest of the fictional world to react.
The extra-judicial killing of suspected terrorists is widely controversial, and is of highly questionable legality (which doesn't actually stop the administration from doing it though).
The killing of Osama Bin Laden is even in a gray area legally. The administration argued that as head of an organization in an ongoing "war" against the US, that he was considered an enemy field commander. Many legal experts disagreed with that analysis by Holder. In the end it mostly came down to the fact that Bin Laden was reaching for a weapon or had one in his hands, leading more to a self-defense argument. If he had had his hands up and had attempted to surrender, killing him would have been highly illegal. Either way, Pakistan, and the international backed down, despite the legality of what happened on their soil. Now I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, just that the action was and is legally questionable. Again, most arguments come down to this being a "war" setting of two forces clashing.
The Winter Soldier is not, and cannot be considered an enemy as part of an ongoing "war".
Hell, it's five years later, and the US Government is still in litigation over the legality of killing a US Citizen Anwar al-Awlaki.
Which, clearly, the Avengers haven't been paying attention to. Captain America and the Mighty Avengers is no different than Commander China and the Radical Revolutionaries.
Its all perspective.
Yea i loved that Zemo said he absolutely didnt want more Winter Soldiers running around so he took them out. Brilliant, and i didnt see it coming.
Bullshit quid he's CAPTAIN America. People don't just get made to be a captain! He's also a captain of America, a country known for its calm judgement and sure handed guidance in troubled times.
pleasepaypreacher.net
And those courts weren't getting anything done. Not surprisingly, countries that weren't America weren't thrilled with American super soldiers operating as they liked. Those countries proposed an international agreement that strengthened restrictions that existed. And then they signed them. Which is p reasonable.
Or that no one has brought charges, for reasons up to and including the fact that having the Avengers on scene was far better than not.
Hell, Wakanda is totally within their rights as a sovereign nation to sue Cap & Co in international court over the deaths of their missionaries. They choose not to for some reason, but it's not entirely clear why. Especially since the individual that is generally pointed to as potentially being culpable, Wanda, doesn't really have any expectation of protection from a government strong enough to avoid extradition.
Countries solve disputes over border crossings and military actions every day, and often do so with non-governmental actors as well. There's absolutely no indication in this movie that such methods were even attempted, which would cause me to question the legitimacy of the concerns being voiced. If I push for legislation based on the idea that someone keeps breaking into my house, but I've never reported it to the police, that would make my motives and actions look very suspicious. Wakanda in particular looks pretty shady in how this goes down.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Wanda's not an American. It's not entirely clear that Natasha is either.
In Wanda's case, there's absolutely no reason to expect the US to step up and protect her legally, and Tony alludes to such in the conversation with Cap.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
She's not an American citizen, just someone working for an American's private military organization with zero accountability and no way to be reached to be held accountable.
I love Captain America. He's a great guy and the Avengers do great things. What the world doesn't need is more privatized militaries doing what they please so long as it's "right." Him being a super nice guy doesn't make it so.
Quick thoughts:
Tony's hubris: he cannot not act. He said it himself, "I don't want to quit." Steve's hubris: he cannot not act. Interestingly, it was Tony who called him on this. To paraphrase, Steve said "I can't walk away when I see a situation going south, even if I want to", and Tony said "But you don't want to."
I was trying to figure out why Clint would jump into this shit storm (I know the real reason is because Movie). After Sokovia and watching Pietro get killed, he decided to call it quits. He was getting to indulge himself and his family. Sure, he may have been getting bored, but there's lots of ways to get that adrenaline fix without resorting to becoming an internationally wanted criminal. Even if he is devoted to Cap, he could have said "I support your decision, but I can't get involved". The reason Clint jumped in is the same reason Cap did all of this: Bucky. Specifically, Bucky had nearly every government in the world after his head for things he did while mind controlled. That's the hook that Cap used to get Barton in on this, and now Clint can possibly never see his family again. Fuck you Steve for dragging in the guy who did what you could not, here's your asshole badge.
Poor, starstruck Scott Lang. He had his daughter back at the end of his movie, and it's all fucked again. He got sent back to prison, the very reason his wife cut contact between him and his daughter. Another man lost his family, and another child lost their dad, thanks to Cap. Here's another asshole badge, Steve! The one silver lining is it's doubtful Pym is going come down on Scott much for this. Pym might even pat him on the back for sticking it to a Stark!
pleasepaypreacher.net
I'm predicating precisely 0% of my argument on Cap being a cool dude.
There's no mention of any sort of legal action having been taken by any country before the Accords hit the desk at the Avengers staff meeting. None whatsoever. Wall to wall media coverage is shown, but it's all about the events themselves. They don't even mention any sort of attempt by the countries that have seen this sort of action to hold the Avengers accountable legally when they're outlining the necessity of the Accords, which seems completely crazy if they're pointing to how such a system is inadequate.
And I can see how it might be, sure. But the jump from total legal apathy to secret prisons without process absolutely destroys any sense of legitimacy for this thing. As I've said before, instituting a system where there's an after action hearing for the incidents and protocols for censuring team members is totally reasonable. We don't get any of that in the film. The first act of the accords is a shoot on sight order for Bucky and a shrug at Wanda being held without process. It's pretty clear from the get-go that this whole thing is rigged beyond usefulness.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Lang and Parker were both pretty star-struck. They're relative nobodies and Captain America (or Tony Stark) said that they needed their help. Unless step two involved being given a can of gas, matches, and a map to the local orphanage, they weren't likely to exercise a whole lot of critical thinking about the situation.
This doesn't absolve them of responsibility, but you can't quite blow everything off by saying they're adults and made their own decisions.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't think anyone else on the team has family, at least close family.
I get that they wanted to make a principled stand, and I can appreciate that. But they've got responsibilities beyond the life, and they should have taken that into account.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Vision: I am diametrically designed never to miss
Wanda: Yeah well tell that to Rhodey...and the toilet seat
If you hand a recovering alcoholic a beer and ask him to drink with you, do you not have some culpability?
Clint said he's getting bored. He's been in the life so long for so hard he's having trouble adjusting. He's probably a legitimate adrenaline junky. Given that, yea I place some blame on Cap. Cap definitely earns his asshole badge for asking the retiree in the first place. If Tony can be given crap for bringing in Parker, Steve can be given crap for bringing in Clint.
Scott's situation I honestly can't blame on Cap. We don't know exactly what Scott was told to get him out there, so it may be entirely the case that it's just Scott being drunk on hero worship, which is a flimsy excuse at best. It just tears me up that Cassie lost her daddy again.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I would be surprised if Clint's family doesn't have a pretty sizeable savings and didn't outright own the land the cabin is on.
#NeverWanda
#TeamWanda
That's true. Laura Barton seems like she is supportive of Clint's job, so he may have had her blessing. I still think Cap is a jerk for asking him in the first place.
Second is not hacking or blowing up the jet at the airport.
Third not telling Cap "hey I'll get them to stand down the shoot on sight thing" and/or getting involved to capture Bucky.
I mean Clint only really retired in response to the Accords, and it makes total sense that a guy who lost friends with the Hydra thing wouldn't be on board with an outside government agency being in charge as thats specifically what happened to shield.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Tony almost certainly did not say "Hey, super-hot Aunt May, I'm gonna take your nephew(son) to a foreign country to fight and apprehend one or more enhanced super-soldiers. Pete here wouldn't happened to have suffered any tragedy or deep personal trauma in the recent past, would he? Because there may in fact also be a woman with telekinesis and the ability to inspire horrific visions of the past and future. What's that? Oh, no, it's totes safe because young Peter here has a special danger sense, an enhanced healing factor and durability, and the proportionate strength and speed of a spider. It's really quite spectacular!"
So, Tony Stark was engaged in the endangerment of a child at the very least, and kidnapping at worst, in addition to a laundry list of other offenses just in relation to the recruitment of Peter Parker. He also clearly in no way put as much thought into his reasoning as a bunch of nerds on an internet forum, nor did he give the sixteen-year old boychild anything resembling a balanced representation of the conflict at hand.
In fact, the brief speech Peter makes in his room about "letting the bad things happen" is essentially exactly the philosophy that Steve Rogers espouses. The kind of manipulation it would take to make that child think Captain America is "wrong and dangerous" is mind-boggling and creepy as shit. He's the super-hero equivalent of some kid's cool uncle showing up, buying him a car, and then saying "hey, I need you to cart these guns to Mexico. It's cool, I'll be with you. I'll just tell your ma that we're going to Disneyland."
Dirt. Bag.
Roping Spider-Man of all people into fighting on his side is the best argument that Tony needed to slow his roll and maybe think about listening to somebody other than the always-irate goose-stepper who'd spent years chasing and attempting to kill his science-bro, Bruce Banner (which regularly resulted in the meek scientist involuntarily turning into a giant green rage monster, thus putting Ross to blame for unleashing a walking WMD). He should maybe be questioning his own thought process, but instead gets 'tired of' listening to Cap trying to explain the underlying situation and immediately -immediately- sics a dumb teenager on The Guy Who Defeated Super-Hitler.
However, to add a layer to the fun, The Futurist is also the name of Robert Downey Jr's jazz/folk album from 2004. I'm sure that coincidence was pointed out in previous Marvel threads, but it just goes to show that Hawkeye can't seem to miss.
People keep saying this, and I 100% agree that it was something Steve or his Uncle Ben would say.
It's not exactly a stretch to say that Tony feels that way too, even if his sound bites don't venture into the realm of fortune cookie wisdom. Specifically think about what he imagined Steve saying when they were all dead in Age of Ultron: "Why didn't you do more?"
It's also Steve's primary and first objection to the Accords- that he's not ready to sign an agreement that limits his ability to help others. It's also his reasoning to Wanda. They have to help others, even though their actions may come with a cost (like, say, getting shot while saving a team member and a child).
The thing with treating the Avengers like a private military or as though they're acting like a sovereign authority, is that the Avengers have no interests of their own. They don't fight to protect their own authority, they don't fight to hold land; they don't fight over their financial holdings; they don't fight to maintain alliances; they don't fight for their own gain. They don't even fight common criminals, blue-collar or otherwise- the fight enhanced, superhuman, and extra-legal individuals and organizations that present clear threats to the common good of humanity, that no government (save Wakanda) is prepared or willing to fight.
Steve Rogers isn't out there smashing drug dealers or ventilating mobsters. He isn't out there fighting for America. He isn't fighting for a company or a flag, even though he's wearing one. He isn't fighting to get his jollies. The Avengers aren't enforcing anything, they're literally protecting people, sometimes the world, from threats that basically only they are capable of handling.
Any member of the international community could stop bitching and actually put one or more of them on trial, even before the Accords. But they don't, exactly because of what Natasha said at the end of Winter Soldier: the Avengers are fighting on behalf of the people who can't, and they're the only ones who can do it.
He's shown having heightened perception twice. He catches the baseball that Tony fastballs at him, and when he's fighting Bucky, Bucky throws a piece of concrete at the back of his head, and he whips around, catches it, says, "I think you dropped this," and tosses it back.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!