alright i wanted to put some thoughts together about the late game design.
first, and this is only somewhat related, but i think it's very clever how the black holes are used to pretty much make you feel bad. when you warp to a black hole system you're unvaryingly spawned facing into it, close enough to make that massive leap to the center with no further practical expense or delay... but more often than not with a big, beautiful planet hovering behind it peripherally. 'progress,' for whatever reason, feels bad. we talk about games that give you a chance to make meaningful decisions. these moments - do i stay? if i do, i'll never get to the bloody center, but... what if that planet's as beautiful as it looks? what if this is somehow the coolest system in the galaxy that i'm skipping past, without even alighting? is it possible? sure. it's not likely, and of course the planets landscapes themselves have a diminishing return as you play more, but i also believe that most people who are still playing in the late game are those who do believe there's still something to discover on any given planet.
on a similar note, i've noticed that black holes are never in star systems of different colours, and never spit you out in blue, red or green systems either. it's all default yellow. if you keep yourself on the most efficient route to the center, the game both makes you feel bad and denies you access to diverse experiences, quite deliberately. i'm no expert on the practical differences between these systems as i'm currently railroaded away from them (as described) and i'd like to work out their qualities myself eventually. but assuming there's a difference of some kind, you're not going to see it if you're just trying to "get to the end"
now, there are three plus one things that lead me to believe the "center of the galaxy" isn't the end of the game. i'll put them in spoilers because they contain some assumed knowledge about what happens and some stuff relating to the atlas path and nada's dialogue as you progress further:
nada's dialogue is the primary one. he talks about things like "breaking a loop" and to report back with "data," but also about "joy being the only meaningful data." i've only been invested in the idea that he's giving clues for the last couple of anomaly visits but i do get the feeling of pieces of a puzzle being slowly revealed. there are also two doorways in the anomaly that afaik nobody has figured out how to open yet.
the portals. nobody has any fucking idea of what they're for or how to deal with them. all the speculation has been fruitless, even detrimental, thus far, but i don't believe that means much at all because it's also been pretty dumb. this game is smart. at the very least they suggest something more that's as yet unseen.
the center of the galaxy's apparently recursive nature, and how the game makes you feel implicitly like the action is really happening planet-side, with the red herring of big distances traveled. i think it makes for a highly rewarding pay-off if ultimately there's something to be found in the detail of certain planets, which leads me to...
the atlas pass "system map" rooms. this is my plus-one because i haven't seen it directly myself; i haven't got the higher atlas passes yet. this is interesting because it's another important element, like portals, undeniably coded into the game. it's a substantial effort to get the high level passes, and i think what you see behind the higher level doors is a key. i liken it maybe to the end of the atlas path revealing black holes for you: it doesn't even tell you you have that ability yet. it just gives it to you and makes you figure it out for yourself. allegedly if you find a system matching the one in the map room the galaxy map makes a distinct sound.
i'm fairly convinced there's a puzzle here. i have more ideas that necessitate me getting a bit further with nada and polo to find out. stay tuned.
this is the only part for me where the 'unfinished' feel of some elements in the game stings. if i could be sure that hello games had time to execute all of their dreams, i would have no doubts whatsoever that there was a big discovery on the horizon. we know that's not exactly the case. at the very least, i'm sure they'll implement it eventually... and for now, the writing leads that way, the gameplay's leading that way, so i'm going to keep following the trail.
Yeah, I finished the Atlas Path, but still haven't got the v3 Pass...
After being disappointed what the v2 Pass gave me, the only thing that can make me happy behind a v3 door is a bunch of warp cells I guess...
I am now continuing my journey to the centre (which will still be quite far and quite a few hours/days)...
PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
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kaceypwe stayed bright as lightningwe sang loud as thunderRegistered Userregular
I haven't played a ton in the last few days, but I did finally ditch my starter ship for a newer one. And I'd be lying if I said my decision wasn't significantly influenced by the fact that this ship looks like a dragon.
Good news everyone!
All of the MBINS have been decrypted. Modders have full access to the data files, and there is a Blender plugin forthcoming for editing 3D assets.
this game is a photographer's dream. i've decided to collate my shots of the hilbert galaxy: one photo per planet, with an aim to capturing what it is that makes that planet unique.
initially it was a way to make sure i got a break between systems: collate the shots, upload them, post it, go to a new system tomorrow. i need to slow down. i've been off work (injured) and i just can't draw myself away. but... the lure is so strong...
Hah, goddamnit, so having read about what happens, it not only sounds as if the center is disappointing, but it sounds to me like it should be actively avoided. You go to a different galaxy, starting ~175,000 light years from its center? Meaning you will now never come across anyone's discoveries in the Euclid galaxy? Half the reason I had wanted to get to the center was to arrive at a dense area of discoveries of other players, which I perceived as a key selling point of the game.
Hah, goddamnit, so having read about what happens, it not only sounds as if the center is disappointing, but it sounds to me like it should be actively avoided. You go to a different galaxy, starting ~175,000 light years from its center? Meaning you will now never come across anyone's discoveries in the Euclid galaxy? Half the reason I had wanted to get to the center was to arrive at a dense area of discoveries of other players, which I perceived as a key selling point of the game.
eh. i actually really like the feeling of having my own, very big, undiscovered chunk of the universe to explore. maybe this was underlined when i literally couldn't find a new system at the centre's edge to depart from: i had to go via someone else's discovery. so sure, if you like hopping around other people's systems, the area near the centre is cool. but for me it's just taking away the chance to stamp my mark
hilbert is also... harder. the pirates are mean, the weather is often extreme, and the terrain seems more diverse when compared to the outer rim of euclid. i just want to faff about taking photos but sometimes it's not so easy.
has anyone made it to the "true" end of the universe then? Or have folks just reached the center of Euclid, said "this sucks" and called it quits?
i dunno if it was via hax or what, but someone posted some evidence that the 256th and "last" galaxy is a straight duplicate of the 255th. weird, considering only one isn't procedural and it's the last one.
there's more to the story that nobody's shared yet, of that i am certain. whether it's a little or a lot is hard to say, especially in this early incarnation
The names of the different dimensions are fixed until the 5th galaxy, at which point it will just start auto-generating names. There's no true ending, you just keep getting dropped into new galaxies
The names of the different dimensions are fixed until the 5th galaxy, at which point it will just start auto-generating names. There's no true ending, you just keep getting dropped into new galaxies
The trick to finding the actual end is you have to remember to get the Horn of Eld from the Jericho system.
so i am still playing this, though i've slowed down a lot. i made my way to a system identical to one of the ones shown in one of the very rare system map atlas rooms; predictably, nothing happened, but it was a fun one to name, assuming others will be on the hunt for such stars
interesting photos are getting a bit harder to find but it's still usually just about patience and leaving the ship long enough to see the world
finding out what was in the center totally killed my interest in this
i was totally fine with spending a few hours now and then chillin' out and making my way to the galactic core
i knew what was there was apparently disappointing but i figured if i'm just leisurely making my way there i won't have my hopes up too much
the fact that the only thing there is more space travel is about the only possibility that would have gotten me to stop
Right:
I was pretty upset to find it not only not desirable, but worthy of particularly avoiding it entirely.
Also, somehow I feel like I managed to miss all this time what appears to be a total disconnect in the textures of the planets in space, and the general terrain itself. If I see what looks like a rather large mountain from space, I'd like to then find some sort of mountain on the planet itself. But perhaps this would be much more difficult than I would think.
I also swear that I'm getting worse draw distances than at release on PS4.
Also, somehow I feel like I managed to miss all this time what appears to be a total disconnect in the textures of the planets in space, and the general terrain itself. If I see what looks like a rather large mountain from space, I'd like to then find some sort of mountain on the planet itself. But perhaps this would be much more difficult than I would think.
It's something every other game with planetary landings has managed.
I just looked up the Galactic Center ending, 'cuz I was curious
Wow
That is maybe the single most deflating thing they could have done
Who the hell on the design team thought a glorified screen saver would make people feel good for spending who knows how many hours trying to reach the center?
the 'story' is the atlas path, the center is more or less just
new game plus
i took it that way, anyway
knowing the structure of the game and how limited the narrative assets are (there's nothing to hint that getting to the center is some eureka moment of meaning in a game that otherwise forces players to make their own), i'm just honestly confused about what people expected. it also strikes me as funny that most people complaining about the center of euclid are those who haven't put the effort into getting there. it suggests to me that along with murray himself, it's more just a convenient outlet of frustration for people who thought they'd like the game, but don't
Maybe, or maybe it's a super lame ending and people are annoyed about that. Whether or not you were "able" to make it there (a test of nothing more than disposable time and bloody-mindedness) isn't a factor. The game pushes you to get to the centre of the universe. It was talked about from the very start of the game. There's never any hint of "by the way, this sucks!". Being condescending to people talking about their purchase in a way you don't approve of is kind of a shitty way to behave. What did people expect? They paid seventy dollars. They expected some effort.
No Man's Sky is a game with a very clear and explicit message about the arbitrary nature of goals set for the player vs goals set by the player, and how the former is ultimately meaningless compared to the latter where players discover their own meaning.
I have to question however whether delivering that message by creating a (ultimately, intentionally meaningless) path for the player that they could follow for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours is the best way to go. Whether intentionally or accidentally it ends up feeling almost disdainful towards the player.
the 'story' is the atlas path, the center is more or less just
new game plus
i took it that way, anyway
knowing the structure of the game and how limited the narrative assets are (there's nothing to hint that getting to the center is some eureka moment of meaning in a game that otherwise forces players to make their own), i'm just honestly confused about what people expected. it also strikes me as funny that most people bitching about the center of euclid are those who haven't been able to get there. it suggests to me that along with murray himself, it's more just a convenient outlet of frustration for people who thought they'd like the game, but don't
I didn't make it to the center because the game bored me to tears long before I ever would have made it there.
So I decided to play other games that actually respected the time I put into them.
If you're gonna argue that the ending is fine, actually make an argument about the ending instead of a bunch of ad hominem attacks.
Maybe, or maybe it's a super lame ending and people are annoyed about that. Whether or not you were "able" to make it there (a test of nothing more than disposable time and bloody-mindedness) isn't a factor. The game pushes you to get to the centre of the universe. It was talked about from the very start of the game. There's never any hint of "by the way, this sucks!". Being condescending to people talking about their purchase in a way you don't approve of is kind of a shitty way to behave. What did people expect? They paid seventy dollars. They expected some effort.
look, i'm not saying frustrations overall aren't warranted. the game gave me what i came for but i understand that some people feel ripped off... even though i'm personally not sure how much difference seeing a sand worm one time or bumping into another player's ship would really make. the game is what it is, and none of the otherwise envisioned features would fundamentally change that.
but reaching the center of the game's first galaxy should only feel hollow if you hated the experience of playing and resented the time and effort spent getting to it. if that's the case, surely, you're punishing yourself? if you're doing something boring for an abstract future moment of digital pay-off... why bother? it never really presents itself as an 'ending,' and in the epic road-trip that is actually getting there, it becomes pretty clear that no cut-scene, text-box or gameplay reward could really do the journey justice
i got what i wanted. a subtle feeling of achievement, a couple of very clever reminders of how far i'd come, and a new challenge presented. again, i'm confused about what people wanted.
Maybe, or maybe it's a super lame ending and people are annoyed about that. Whether or not you were "able" to make it there (a test of nothing more than disposable time and bloody-mindedness) isn't a factor. The game pushes you to get to the centre of the universe. It was talked about from the very start of the game. There's never any hint of "by the way, this sucks!". Being condescending to people talking about their purchase in a way you don't approve of is kind of a shitty way to behave. What did people expect? They paid seventy dollars. They expected some effort.
look, i'm not saying frustrations overall aren't warranted. the game gave me what i came for but i understand that some people feel ripped off... even though i'm personally not sure how much difference seeing a sand worm one time or bumping into another player's ship would really make. the game is what it is, and none of the otherwise envisioned features would fundamentally change that.
but reaching the center of the game's first galaxy should only feel hollow if you hated the experience of playing and resented the time and effort spent getting to it. if that's the case, surely, you're punishing yourself? if you're doing something boring for an abstract future moment of digital pay-off... why bother? it never really presents itself as an 'ending,' and in the epic road-trip that is actually getting there, it becomes pretty clear that no cut-scene, text-box or gameplay reward could really do the journey justice
i got what i wanted. a subtle feeling of achievement, a couple of very clever reminders of how far i'd come, and a new challenge presented. again, i'm confused about what people wanted.
To me, the game was about discovering cool-looking stuff. And that's pretty much what they marketed it as. So I expected that when I reached the center I'd find something unique and cool-looking. Like, I dunno, their interpretation of what a supermassive black hole looks like, just as one example. Or some crazy alien artifact. I wasn't expecting some grand conclusion to an overarching narrative. I just wanted something that made the center seem special.
Instead what you get is pretty much the exact same thing you see at the very start of the game, just with a different galaxy name.
You don't even really go to the center! It just auto-warps you to next galaxy!
No Man's Sky is a game with a very clear and explicit message about the arbitrary nature of goals set for the player vs goals set by the player, and how the former is ultimately meaningless compared to the latter where players discover their own meaning.
I have to question however whether delivering that message by creating a (ultimately, intentionally meaningless) path for the player that they could follow for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours is the best way to go. Whether intentionally or accidentally it ends up feeling almost disdainful towards the player.
this "by the player, not for the player" thing is important. the way i play no man's sky reminds me of this interesting article about why people do things like "soul level one" challenges in dark souls (as well as cooking vegan donuts). there's always the understanding when you set yourself an arbitrary goal that the motivation and the pay-off will be completely intrinsic. i think no man's sky is a bit more forward about asking you to set arbitrary goals for yourself - in the process of getting to the center of the euclid galaxy you kinda have to do it a lot, or yeah, you'd get bored as batshit. but i think all that means is there's not really a problem in hello games designing the center of the galaxy to satisfy the sorts of people who would actually make it there.
Maybe, or maybe it's a super lame ending and people are annoyed about that. Whether or not you were "able" to make it there (a test of nothing more than disposable time and bloody-mindedness) isn't a factor. The game pushes you to get to the centre of the universe. It was talked about from the very start of the game. There's never any hint of "by the way, this sucks!". Being condescending to people talking about their purchase in a way you don't approve of is kind of a shitty way to behave. What did people expect? They paid seventy dollars. They expected some effort.
look, i'm not saying frustrations overall aren't warranted. the game gave me what i came for but i understand that some people feel ripped off... even though i'm personally not sure how much difference seeing a sand worm one time or bumping into another player's ship would really make. the game is what it is, and none of the otherwise envisioned features would fundamentally change that.
but reaching the center of the game's first galaxy should only feel hollow if you hated the experience of playing and resented the time and effort spent getting to it. if that's the case, surely, you're punishing yourself? if you're doing something boring for an abstract future moment of digital pay-off... why bother? it never really presents itself as an 'ending,' and in the epic road-trip that is actually getting there, it becomes pretty clear that no cut-scene, text-box or gameplay reward could really do the journey justice
i got what i wanted. a subtle feeling of achievement, a couple of very clever reminders of how far i'd come, and a new challenge presented. again, i'm confused about what people wanted.
To me, the game was about discovering cool-looking stuff. And that's pretty much what they marketed it as. So I expected that when I reached the center I'd find something unique and cool-looking. Like, I dunno, their interpretation of what a supermassive black hole looks like, just as one example. Or some crazy alien artifact. I wasn't expecting some grand conclusion to an overarching narrative. I just wanted something that made the center seem special.
Instead what you get is pretty much the exact same thing you see at the very start of the game, just with a different galaxy name.
You don't even really go to the center! It just auto-warps you to next galaxy!
yeah that pretty much sums it up for me
i wanted something. literally anything that would have felt distinct from the rest of the game. instead the reward is literally nothing. "congratulations on making it all this way. anyway do it again."
a game that's all about user-defined goals is not new or interesting
minecraft's been doing it for years, and also serves as proof that when it's done right people fuckin love it
on the other hand the prevailing narrative with no man's sky is that it's shallow and disappointing
because the singular sole incentive the game offers you is randomly generated alien landscapes
and for most people all the different landscapes run together at some point, generally sooner rather than later
they pulled off their insane number of unique worlds by having everything exist on an extremely fine gradient. In reality there's only maybe a couple dozen categories of planets that every planet falls into. "Cold world," "paradise world," "hot world," "ocean world," "poison world," etc. In general it's not impressive to see one grassy world with deer monsters and one grassy world with dinosaur monsters, especially when the fauna are subject to the exact same problem. This deer's got white spots but THIS deer has yellow spots!!
If you're still enjoying seeing differently colored stone pillars against differently colored skies then more power to you, but it's not some failure of initiative or understanding of the game to find it dull and unsatisfying. If I set a goal for myself in Minecraft, I'm rewarded at the end with a thing I made. If I set a goal in NMS, I'm rewarded with... another random planet that's technically different but not meaningfully distinct from the one I started on. There's no reason to go anywhere because the odds of finding something that's honest-to-god new are practically zero.
Posts
first, and this is only somewhat related, but i think it's very clever how the black holes are used to pretty much make you feel bad. when you warp to a black hole system you're unvaryingly spawned facing into it, close enough to make that massive leap to the center with no further practical expense or delay... but more often than not with a big, beautiful planet hovering behind it peripherally. 'progress,' for whatever reason, feels bad. we talk about games that give you a chance to make meaningful decisions. these moments - do i stay? if i do, i'll never get to the bloody center, but... what if that planet's as beautiful as it looks? what if this is somehow the coolest system in the galaxy that i'm skipping past, without even alighting? is it possible? sure. it's not likely, and of course the planets landscapes themselves have a diminishing return as you play more, but i also believe that most people who are still playing in the late game are those who do believe there's still something to discover on any given planet.
on a similar note, i've noticed that black holes are never in star systems of different colours, and never spit you out in blue, red or green systems either. it's all default yellow. if you keep yourself on the most efficient route to the center, the game both makes you feel bad and denies you access to diverse experiences, quite deliberately. i'm no expert on the practical differences between these systems as i'm currently railroaded away from them (as described) and i'd like to work out their qualities myself eventually. but assuming there's a difference of some kind, you're not going to see it if you're just trying to "get to the end"
now, there are three plus one things that lead me to believe the "center of the galaxy" isn't the end of the game. i'll put them in spoilers because they contain some assumed knowledge about what happens and some stuff relating to the atlas path and nada's dialogue as you progress further:
i'm fairly convinced there's a puzzle here. i have more ideas that necessitate me getting a bit further with nada and polo to find out. stay tuned.
this is the only part for me where the 'unfinished' feel of some elements in the game stings. if i could be sure that hello games had time to execute all of their dreams, i would have no doubts whatsoever that there was a big discovery on the horizon. we know that's not exactly the case. at the very least, i'm sure they'll implement it eventually... and for now, the writing leads that way, the gameplay's leading that way, so i'm going to keep following the trail.
After being disappointed what the v2 Pass gave me, the only thing that can make me happy behind a v3 door is a bunch of warp cells I guess...
I am now continuing my journey to the centre (which will still be quite far and quite a few hours/days)...
(actual spoiler:)
All of the MBINS have been decrypted. Modders have full access to the data files, and there is a Blender plugin forthcoming for editing 3D assets.
shooting hilbert: photojournal // no man's sky
initially it was a way to make sure i got a break between systems: collate the shots, upload them, post it, go to a new system tomorrow. i need to slow down. i've been off work (injured) and i just can't draw myself away. but... the lure is so strong...
i traveled here 8-)
i believe everyone starts in euclid
hilbert is also... harder. the pirates are mean, the weather is often extreme, and the terrain seems more diverse when compared to the outer rim of euclid. i just want to faff about taking photos but sometimes it's not so easy.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
there's more to the story that nobody's shared yet, of that i am certain. whether it's a little or a lot is hard to say, especially in this early incarnation
The names of the different dimensions are fixed until the 5th galaxy, at which point it will just start auto-generating names. There's no true ending, you just keep getting dropped into new galaxies
My Steam
I think mods will let you make this a reality.
That is some serious bullshit right there.
also they link to an article summery of another website's interview.
interesting photos are getting a bit harder to find but it's still usually just about patience and leaving the ship long enough to see the world
i knew what was there was apparently disappointing but i figured if i'm just leisurely making my way there i won't have my hopes up too much
the fact that the only thing there is more space travel is about the only possibility that would have gotten me to stop
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Right:
Also, somehow I feel like I managed to miss all this time what appears to be a total disconnect in the textures of the planets in space, and the general terrain itself. If I see what looks like a rather large mountain from space, I'd like to then find some sort of mountain on the planet itself. But perhaps this would be much more difficult than I would think.
I also swear that I'm getting worse draw distances than at release on PS4.
It's something every other game with planetary landings has managed.
Wow
That is maybe the single most deflating thing they could have done
i took it that way, anyway
knowing the structure of the game and how limited the narrative assets are (there's nothing to hint that getting to the center is some eureka moment of meaning in a game that otherwise forces players to make their own), i'm just honestly confused about what people expected. it also strikes me as funny that most people complaining about the center of euclid are those who haven't put the effort into getting there. it suggests to me that along with murray himself, it's more just a convenient outlet of frustration for people who thought they'd like the game, but don't
I have to question however whether delivering that message by creating a (ultimately, intentionally meaningless) path for the player that they could follow for dozens, if not hundreds, of hours is the best way to go. Whether intentionally or accidentally it ends up feeling almost disdainful towards the player.
I didn't make it to the center because the game bored me to tears long before I ever would have made it there.
So I decided to play other games that actually respected the time I put into them.
If you're gonna argue that the ending is fine, actually make an argument about the ending instead of a bunch of ad hominem attacks.
I'm still just waiting it out, though
Haven't played in about a month now and just hoping it's stable when I go back
look, i'm not saying frustrations overall aren't warranted. the game gave me what i came for but i understand that some people feel ripped off... even though i'm personally not sure how much difference seeing a sand worm one time or bumping into another player's ship would really make. the game is what it is, and none of the otherwise envisioned features would fundamentally change that.
but reaching the center of the game's first galaxy should only feel hollow if you hated the experience of playing and resented the time and effort spent getting to it. if that's the case, surely, you're punishing yourself? if you're doing something boring for an abstract future moment of digital pay-off... why bother? it never really presents itself as an 'ending,' and in the epic road-trip that is actually getting there, it becomes pretty clear that no cut-scene, text-box or gameplay reward could really do the journey justice
i got what i wanted. a subtle feeling of achievement, a couple of very clever reminders of how far i'd come, and a new challenge presented. again, i'm confused about what people wanted.
Instead what you get is pretty much the exact same thing you see at the very start of the game, just with a different galaxy name.
You don't even really go to the center! It just auto-warps you to next galaxy!
this "by the player, not for the player" thing is important. the way i play no man's sky reminds me of this interesting article about why people do things like "soul level one" challenges in dark souls (as well as cooking vegan donuts). there's always the understanding when you set yourself an arbitrary goal that the motivation and the pay-off will be completely intrinsic. i think no man's sky is a bit more forward about asking you to set arbitrary goals for yourself - in the process of getting to the center of the euclid galaxy you kinda have to do it a lot, or yeah, you'd get bored as batshit. but i think all that means is there's not really a problem in hello games designing the center of the galaxy to satisfy the sorts of people who would actually make it there.
i wanted something. literally anything that would have felt distinct from the rest of the game. instead the reward is literally nothing. "congratulations on making it all this way. anyway do it again."
http://www.audioentropy.com/
minecraft's been doing it for years, and also serves as proof that when it's done right people fuckin love it
on the other hand the prevailing narrative with no man's sky is that it's shallow and disappointing
because the singular sole incentive the game offers you is randomly generated alien landscapes
and for most people all the different landscapes run together at some point, generally sooner rather than later
they pulled off their insane number of unique worlds by having everything exist on an extremely fine gradient. In reality there's only maybe a couple dozen categories of planets that every planet falls into. "Cold world," "paradise world," "hot world," "ocean world," "poison world," etc. In general it's not impressive to see one grassy world with deer monsters and one grassy world with dinosaur monsters, especially when the fauna are subject to the exact same problem. This deer's got white spots but THIS deer has yellow spots!!
If you're still enjoying seeing differently colored stone pillars against differently colored skies then more power to you, but it's not some failure of initiative or understanding of the game to find it dull and unsatisfying. If I set a goal for myself in Minecraft, I'm rewarded at the end with a thing I made. If I set a goal in NMS, I'm rewarded with... another random planet that's technically different but not meaningfully distinct from the one I started on. There's no reason to go anywhere because the odds of finding something that's honest-to-god new are practically zero.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Just make it the end game bam infinate playabilty
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully