Hmmm...is it me or is Torna really short? I just checked a FAQ and I'm apparently at Chapter 4 of 7? Well...I guess it feels a bit shorter than Future Connected but then again I did kinda 100% that game (missing just a few SQs).
One thing to note - there's missing context with Fiora's situation there.
Linalla (the Machina doctor) has worked out how to heal her before that, but Fiora put it off because it would have meant she couldn't fight. Basically that process gets done in the time gap before the epilogue scene. The game itself doesn't deliver that context and stops at her having a solution mostly worked out... its apparently only in the JP artbook of the original release or something. Very poorly delivered, there.
I did have the same thoughts with that situation. I still kind of think that the ending sould have worked better if Fiora had ended up with some mechanical bits remaining.
With regards to Shulk giving up the Monado... There's a running line in the tail end of the game about the uncertainty of the future being a good thing, and Shulk giving up the Monado means he doesn't end up with ever stronger prescience. And he's definitely not going to go off doing mass changes to the world that nobody asked for. The limit of it I think would have been Fiora, and that was already resolved so...
But really I think its more the burden of prescience and power there. And Shulk just got done rejecting Zanza trying to be the sole arbiter of everyone's fate, he's not going to take that position himself. If he knows everything thats going to happen he bears responsibility for all the outcomes.
re: the Fiora situation, I would say that's a retcon that makes other scenes make less sense. Because if Fiora knew she'd be fine, then when Dickson revealed it to everyone including Shulk, she would've said "don't worry, I'm going to be fine, we've already got a solution in place and he's just being an asshole."
As delivered in the game, it's intended to make everyone worried that she doesn't have much time left, and wonder whether or not she'll die in the end. If people didn't have to worry, Fiora would've let them know not to worry, because that's part of her personality.
As far as Shulk having prescience and therefore responsibility? We don't have all the details of what gods can do, but there's a good chance he'd be able to turn it off or suppress it. And/or lock the Monado away in his own crystal tower somewhere where he doesn't have to think about it most of the time.
Your argument seems to be, Shulk should be god because unlike Zanza, Shulk's a good person. I'm going to reject that one because as we learned, Zanza used to be a much better person.
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I don't agree with the assumptions that making all of the races immortal is a....good thing? That's a philosophical question and not something that you can say is an obvious thing someone should have been wanting or asked for -- there's nothing in the game that ever suggests Shulk, or any other "good" character in the game, thinks that immortality is some end goal. People being born forever and never ever dying could lead to some fairly obvious problems, and that desire is never reflected in any of the party members, ever. I'm not even sure why it's being brought up in the context of Xenoblade, because it's not a thing that's brought up by the "good guys" at all.
And Polaritie addressed your concerns about Fiora. There was already a plan in place to make Fiora human again, and presumably he was fine with that. There's nothing jarring about him not asking Alvis for that -- he was fine with the plan that was in place.
The reason that anyone has to die is in order to feed the Bionis, as stated by Zanza. It's why they have short lives. They're his food.
Now there's no god anymore so nothing needs to be fed and...Shulk just leaves everything the way it is? So now rather than giving life back to the Bionis people are dying for no purpose at all?
I should note that I am not arguing in favor of immortality for everyone. Ideally, it should be more along the lines of equality for everyone, because long-lived High Entia and millenia-lived Machina is just going to sow dissent among the races as well as stunt development of the arts and sciences. But that's more meta and beyond the scope of the game. Primarily I'm concerned with the fact that death is established as something Zanza needs, and not a biological inevitability. Notably, Meyneth shrugged and gave her own people enormous lifespans. I guess she didn't need to eat?
One thing to note - there's missing context with Fiora's situation there.
Linalla (the Machina doctor) has worked out how to heal her before that, but Fiora put it off because it would have meant she couldn't fight. Basically that process gets done in the time gap before the epilogue scene. The game itself doesn't deliver that context and stops at her having a solution mostly worked out... its apparently only in the JP artbook of the original release or something. Very poorly delivered, there.
I did have the same thoughts with that situation. I still kind of think that the ending sould have worked better if Fiora had ended up with some mechanical bits remaining.
With regards to Shulk giving up the Monado... There's a running line in the tail end of the game about the uncertainty of the future being a good thing, and Shulk giving up the Monado means he doesn't end up with ever stronger prescience. And he's definitely not going to go off doing mass changes to the world that nobody asked for. The limit of it I think would have been Fiora, and that was already resolved so...
But really I think its more the burden of prescience and power there. And Shulk just got done rejecting Zanza trying to be the sole arbiter of everyone's fate, he's not going to take that position himself. If he knows everything thats going to happen he bears responsibility for all the outcomes.
re: the Fiora situation, I would say that's a retcon that makes other scenes make less sense. Because if Fiora knew she'd be fine, then when Dickson revealed it to everyone including Shulk, she would've said "don't worry, I'm going to be fine, we've already got a solution in place and he's just being an asshole."
As delivered in the game, it's intended to make everyone worried that she doesn't have much time left, and wonder whether or not she'll die in the end. If people didn't have to worry, Fiora would've let them know not to worry, because that's part of her personality.
As far as Shulk having prescience and therefore responsibility? We don't have all the details of what gods can do, but there's a good chance he'd be able to turn it off or suppress it. And/or lock the Monado away in his own crystal tower somewhere where he doesn't have to think about it most of the time.
Your argument seems to be, Shulk should be god because unlike Zanza, Shulk's a good person. I'm going to reject that one because as we learned, Zanza used to be a much better person.
Crazy high tech experiments tearing holes in time and space caused Zanza's multiple personality issues. Shulk has no such concern here, he's not pulling levers without knowing what will happen next.
And what about Meyneth? To paraphrase Mitch Hedberg, she used to be a good person, and she still is, too. I don't think it's too off-base to attribute that to the fact that she wasn't the one who flipped the switch. She remained the same good person she was before because her entire being wasn't torn asunder like Zanza's was. But of course that's speculation.
One thing to note - there's missing context with Fiora's situation there.
Linalla (the Machina doctor) has worked out how to heal her before that, but Fiora put it off because it would have meant she couldn't fight. Basically that process gets done in the time gap before the epilogue scene. The game itself doesn't deliver that context and stops at her having a solution mostly worked out... its apparently only in the JP artbook of the original release or something. Very poorly delivered, there.
I did have the same thoughts with that situation. I still kind of think that the ending sould have worked better if Fiora had ended up with some mechanical bits remaining.
With regards to Shulk giving up the Monado... There's a running line in the tail end of the game about the uncertainty of the future being a good thing, and Shulk giving up the Monado means he doesn't end up with ever stronger prescience. And he's definitely not going to go off doing mass changes to the world that nobody asked for. The limit of it I think would have been Fiora, and that was already resolved so...
But really I think its more the burden of prescience and power there. And Shulk just got done rejecting Zanza trying to be the sole arbiter of everyone's fate, he's not going to take that position himself. If he knows everything thats going to happen he bears responsibility for all the outcomes.
re: the Fiora situation, I would say that's a retcon that makes other scenes make less sense. Because if Fiora knew she'd be fine, then when Dickson revealed it to everyone including Shulk, she would've said "don't worry, I'm going to be fine, we've already got a solution in place and he's just being an asshole."
As delivered in the game, it's intended to make everyone worried that she doesn't have much time left, and wonder whether or not she'll die in the end. If people didn't have to worry, Fiora would've let them know not to worry, because that's part of her personality.
As far as Shulk having prescience and therefore responsibility? We don't have all the details of what gods can do, but there's a good chance he'd be able to turn it off or suppress it. And/or lock the Monado away in his own crystal tower somewhere where he doesn't have to think about it most of the time.
Your argument seems to be, Shulk should be god because unlike Zanza, Shulk's a good person. I'm going to reject that one because as we learned, Zanza used to be a much better person.
Crazy high tech experiments tearing holes in time and space caused Zanza's multiple personality issues. Shulk has no such concern here, he's not pulling levers without knowing what will happen next.
(XC1 and XC2)
OK, see, that's a retcon. That wasn't known to be the case at all until Xenoblade 2 happened years later
One thing to note - there's missing context with Fiora's situation there.
Linalla (the Machina doctor) has worked out how to heal her before that, but Fiora put it off because it would have meant she couldn't fight. Basically that process gets done in the time gap before the epilogue scene. The game itself doesn't deliver that context and stops at her having a solution mostly worked out... its apparently only in the JP artbook of the original release or something. Very poorly delivered, there.
I did have the same thoughts with that situation. I still kind of think that the ending sould have worked better if Fiora had ended up with some mechanical bits remaining.
With regards to Shulk giving up the Monado... There's a running line in the tail end of the game about the uncertainty of the future being a good thing, and Shulk giving up the Monado means he doesn't end up with ever stronger prescience. And he's definitely not going to go off doing mass changes to the world that nobody asked for. The limit of it I think would have been Fiora, and that was already resolved so...
But really I think its more the burden of prescience and power there. And Shulk just got done rejecting Zanza trying to be the sole arbiter of everyone's fate, he's not going to take that position himself. If he knows everything thats going to happen he bears responsibility for all the outcomes.
re: the Fiora situation, I would say that's a retcon that makes other scenes make less sense. Because if Fiora knew she'd be fine, then when Dickson revealed it to everyone including Shulk, she would've said "don't worry, I'm going to be fine, we've already got a solution in place and he's just being an asshole."
As delivered in the game, it's intended to make everyone worried that she doesn't have much time left, and wonder whether or not she'll die in the end. If people didn't have to worry, Fiora would've let them know not to worry, because that's part of her personality.
As far as Shulk having prescience and therefore responsibility? We don't have all the details of what gods can do, but there's a good chance he'd be able to turn it off or suppress it. And/or lock the Monado away in his own crystal tower somewhere where he doesn't have to think about it most of the time.
Wouldn't he also feel irresponsible turning off his foresight? Because that's basically him going "yeah, I don't want to know what happens/prevent it", as much as refusing godhood was. You either reject that power, or you spend all your life (eternity?) using it to shape the future as much as you feel you must.
I think the latter option was the way that the comic Irredeemable was set up. Not so much with future sight, but with a Superman-style hero who was able to perceive literally everything happening on Earth with his super senses.
One thing to note - there's missing context with Fiora's situation there.
Linalla (the Machina doctor) has worked out how to heal her before that, but Fiora put it off because it would have meant she couldn't fight. Basically that process gets done in the time gap before the epilogue scene. The game itself doesn't deliver that context and stops at her having a solution mostly worked out... its apparently only in the JP artbook of the original release or something. Very poorly delivered, there.
I did have the same thoughts with that situation. I still kind of think that the ending sould have worked better if Fiora had ended up with some mechanical bits remaining.
With regards to Shulk giving up the Monado... There's a running line in the tail end of the game about the uncertainty of the future being a good thing, and Shulk giving up the Monado means he doesn't end up with ever stronger prescience. And he's definitely not going to go off doing mass changes to the world that nobody asked for. The limit of it I think would have been Fiora, and that was already resolved so...
But really I think its more the burden of prescience and power there. And Shulk just got done rejecting Zanza trying to be the sole arbiter of everyone's fate, he's not going to take that position himself. If he knows everything thats going to happen he bears responsibility for all the outcomes.
re: the Fiora situation, I would say that's a retcon that makes other scenes make less sense. Because if Fiora knew she'd be fine, then when Dickson revealed it to everyone including Shulk, she would've said "don't worry, I'm going to be fine, we've already got a solution in place and he's just being an asshole."
As delivered in the game, it's intended to make everyone worried that she doesn't have much time left, and wonder whether or not she'll die in the end. If people didn't have to worry, Fiora would've let them know not to worry, because that's part of her personality.
As far as Shulk having prescience and therefore responsibility? We don't have all the details of what gods can do, but there's a good chance he'd be able to turn it off or suppress it. And/or lock the Monado away in his own crystal tower somewhere where he doesn't have to think about it most of the time.
Your argument seems to be, Shulk should be god because unlike Zanza, Shulk's a good person. I'm going to reject that one because as we learned, Zanza used to be a much better person.
Crazy high tech experiments tearing holes in time and space caused Zanza's multiple personality issues. Shulk has no such concern here, he's not pulling levers without knowing what will happen next.
OK, see, that's a retcon. That wasn't known to be the case at all until Xenoblade 2 happened years later
I assumed that was what was meant when it was stated that Zanza used to be a much better person (Zanza, meaning Klaus). I don't recall learning that in this game. For example, we don't learn that at one point he didn't have Telethia around as a self-destruct button, or that at one point he wasn't exploiting the lives of the Homs to subsist on. I realize he shook hands with Meyneth at one point, but for all we know he had always planned to stab her in the back.
The people of Bionis and Mechonis attempting to work together in harmony is not the same as Zanza approving of it.
Hey, keep those spoilers better marked @UncleSporky and @Enlong if you're bringing other games into the discussion.
Also (XC1 and XC2 ending spoilers)
XC2 architect is a case of him being humbled when he sees his arrogance blow up the world. XC1 Zanza is when the outcome results in him becoming a god. That XC2 side is aware of XC1 (and not vice versa) isn't really relevant to that - they experienced dramatically different outcomes to the event. (And as noted, is a bit of a retcon anyways - I don't think it was necessary for the story of XC2 at all)
Ok so I said that no "good" characters in XB1 ever wished for immortality, then I remembered (very minor early XB1 spoilers)
Fiora's totally not-at-all ominious line pre Mechon attack where she tells Shulk "I wish everyday could be like this, always". She's clearly a monster hell bent on immortality and godhood.
Ok so I said that no "good" characters in XB1 ever wished for immortality, then I remembered (very minor early XB1 spoilers)
Fiora's totally not-at-all ominious line pre Mechon attack where she tells Shulk "I wish everyday could be like this, always". She's clearly a monster hell bent on immortality and godhood.
Nah, she's just a monster who knows that saying anything like that will immediately set her hometown on the path to getting ruined in a random monster attack that starts the story.
One of the key themes of the entire Xeno series is that people do not need gods. And that, indeed, creatures that are (for all intents and purposes) gods are either tyrants, will become such because power corrupts, or are dangerous simply because their power cannot be controlled entirely.
You might not agree, or like it, but it's been a thing since Xenogears. It's like complaining that Mario really likes mushrooms and jumping into pipes.
This is not analogous to complaining that Mario really likes mushrooms, any more than it is complaining that Riki really likes yum yum fish.
I don't feel like any of my observations are off-base for what I observed in this game, and I also already refuted what you wrote there, which makes me think you didn't really read it. Again, spoilers:
Meyneth isn't a tyrant, corrupt, or dangerous. She is shown as nothing but virtuous. Of the two gods we see, the one that interacts more with their people is shown to be a net positive overall, and there is no evidence that Shulk couldn't have done the same.
Additionally, Shulk never demonstrated any worry that he would become corrupted by being a god. That's not a theme here at all. If these are the themes of the Xeno series, then they sure botched it in this particular game.
And again...you want to explain why he wouldn't have at least asked Alvis to fix Fiora for him? Or had Alvis make all the races long-lived, if not immortal? Or put some land nearby? This is all just in the process of setting up what the new world will look like, not even actively being a god.
Shulk is not the sort of person who would shrug and say "do whatever." "Keep the world about the same, it's fine." He's more thoughtful than that.
Again, these themes go straight to the heart of the series.
And of course Meyneth is dangerous. She was remote controlled to attack the party by Egil at Galahad Fortress for crying out loud.
The entire point of the game (and Xeno series) can be summarized by these Meyneth quotes: "I finally understand. The futures of our children belong to them alone. Though we are their creators, their lives are theirs to control."
And
"This world belongs to you all. Create a world...with no need for gods."
After seeing what gods and godlike beings have done in the world - even a benevolent one like her - why would Shulk want that kind of power? They're inherently dangerous and it's the mortals who get caught up in their machinations. Even a 'benevolent' one like Meyneth is harmful because the people rely on her completely. She's not an equal to them. She's an ever-living parent who, by her mere presence, impacts the potential of those she created.
People should rise or fall on by their own actions, not because of the whims of a god. Which, again, is Xeno-the-series. Other games had things like the Wave Existence and U-DO which were essentially different kinds of consciousnesses/power that, when interacted with, created a whole shitload of unintended consequences. It wasn't that these entities themselves were bad/evil/whatever, but that humanity made a mistake in looking for external sources to solve their problems, where the real work should be done by us for us.
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority. And I know I'm not alone, given that I used to spend a lot of time on atheist forums. It's also the kind of idea that underpins other game series outside of Xeno, like the early Shin Megami Tensei games. Or, for something more modern, Fire Emblem: Three Houses (Black Eagles and Golden Deer paths).
TLDR; This stuff is there, but it seems that you missed it.
Again, these themes go straight to the heart of the series.
And of course Meyneth is dangerous. She was remote controlled to attack the party by Egil at Galahad Fortress for crying out loud.
The entire point of the game (and Xeno series) can be summarized by these Meyneth quotes: "I finally understand. The futures of our children belong to them alone. Though we are their creators, their lives are theirs to control."
And
"This world belongs to you all. Create a world...with no need for gods."
After seeing what gods and godlike beings have done in the world - even a benevolent one like her - why would Shulk want that kind of power? They're inherently dangerous and it's the mortals who get caught up in their machinations. Even a 'benevolent' one like Meyneth is harmful because the people rely on her completely. She's not an equal to them. She's an ever-living parent who, by her mere presence, impacts the potential of those she created.
People should rise or fall on by their own actions, not because of the whims of a god. Which, again, is Xeno-the-series. Other games had things like the Wave Existence and U-DO which were essentially different kinds of consciousnesses/power that, when interacted with, created a whole shitload of unintended consequences. It wasn't that these entities themselves were bad/evil/whatever, but that humanity made a mistake in looking for external sources to solve their problems, where the real work should be done by us for us.
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority. And I know I'm not alone, given that I used to spend a lot of time on atheist forums. It's also the kind of idea that underpins other game series outside of Xeno, like the early Shin Megami Tensei games. Or, for something more modern, Fire Emblem: Three Houses (Black Eagles and Golden Deer paths).
TLDR; This stuff is there, but it seems that you missed it.
The body of the Mechonis was remote controlled, not Meyneth. At the time, Meyneth was residing inside Fiora. The Mechonis was remote controlled by a regular mortal, as if piloting a giant mech. The evil in that particular case wasn't a god, it was a man. You might as well call any weapon a god; Shulk later uses his replica Monado in Future Connected to save the day, therefore it has great power and is too dangerous and must be sealed away? If our concern is powerful weapons being misused, why the heck didn't Shulk create a world with no need for weapons?
Like I said...the world already didn't need gods. Zanza did nothing for them. So Shulk asking for that, as if it's some sort of significant statement, is entirely wrong. That's likely why the world we see at the end is a cosmic shrug by Alvis with hardly any differences. It's a gigantic waste of a wish.
Regarding this:
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority.
If Shulk already had those beliefs that people should be free to chose their own destinies, it seems easy to conclude that had he accepted godhood, he would've been the kind of god that allowed people that space. Sort of like I've been saying all along, someone who takes some steps to establish a better world than the old one, then steps back, seals away his own power if he needs to, and walks hand in hand with Fiora. He doesn't need to be interfering in every single aspect of everyone's lives.
Would you accept godhood, if given the chance? And then try to be the sort of god who lets everyone live their lives as they see fit, not playing favoritism? Or do you think Shulk probably should've taken the job and did a Thanos snap to get rid of all the racists, at least?
Again, these themes go straight to the heart of the series.
And of course Meyneth is dangerous. She was remote controlled to attack the party by Egil at Galahad Fortress for crying out loud.
The entire point of the game (and Xeno series) can be summarized by these Meyneth quotes: "I finally understand. The futures of our children belong to them alone. Though we are their creators, their lives are theirs to control."
And
"This world belongs to you all. Create a world...with no need for gods."
After seeing what gods and godlike beings have done in the world - even a benevolent one like her - why would Shulk want that kind of power? They're inherently dangerous and it's the mortals who get caught up in their machinations. Even a 'benevolent' one like Meyneth is harmful because the people rely on her completely. She's not an equal to them. She's an ever-living parent who, by her mere presence, impacts the potential of those she created.
People should rise or fall on by their own actions, not because of the whims of a god. Which, again, is Xeno-the-series. Other games had things like the Wave Existence and U-DO which were essentially different kinds of consciousnesses/power that, when interacted with, created a whole shitload of unintended consequences. It wasn't that these entities themselves were bad/evil/whatever, but that humanity made a mistake in looking for external sources to solve their problems, where the real work should be done by us for us.
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority. And I know I'm not alone, given that I used to spend a lot of time on atheist forums. It's also the kind of idea that underpins other game series outside of Xeno, like the early Shin Megami Tensei games. Or, for something more modern, Fire Emblem: Three Houses (Black Eagles and Golden Deer paths).
TLDR; This stuff is there, but it seems that you missed it.
The body of the Mechonis was remote controlled, not Meyneth. At the time, Meyneth was residing inside Fiora. The Mechonis was remote controlled by a regular mortal, as if piloting a giant mech. The evil in that particular case wasn't a god, it was a man. You might as well call any weapon a god; Shulk later uses his replica Monado in Future Connected to save the day, therefore it has great power and is too dangerous and must be sealed away? If our concern is powerful weapons being misused, why the heck didn't Shulk create a world with no need for weapons?
Like I said...the world already didn't need gods. Zanza did nothing for them. So Shulk asking for that, as if it's some sort of significant statement, is entirely wrong. That's likely why the world we see at the end is a cosmic shrug by Alvis with hardly any differences. It's a gigantic waste of a wish.
Regarding this:
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority.
If Shulk already had those beliefs that people should be free to chose their own destinies, it seems easy to conclude that had he accepted godhood, he would've been the kind of god that allowed people that space. Sort of like I've been saying all along, someone who takes some steps to establish a better world than the old one, then steps back, seals away his own power if he needs to, and walks hand in hand with Fiora. He doesn't need to be interfering in every single aspect of everyone's lives.
Would you accept godhood, if given the chance? And then try to be the sort of god who lets everyone live their lives as they see fit, not playing favoritism? Or do you think Shulk probably should've taken the job and did a Thanos snap to get rid of all the racists, at least?
I haven't got to that part of the story again yet, but I thought I remembered that Meyneth in the Face Nemesis was also under some measure of control by Egil. It was later on in the story that he realized that what he was using to control Fiora's will was actually the soul of Meyneth.
If Shulk used the power for something, and then sealed it away somehow thereafter, how is that very different from what he already does at the end of the game? He (presumably) repairs a lot of the damage that had been done to the Bionis, and then casts the power away. But let's say he does more, like extend peoples' lifespans, and then casts the power away. If something bad happens later that that fix doesn't help, isn't he once again responsible for not preventing it? Where does he get to stop and still be considered responsible? Can he ever?
side note: a "thanos snap" seems like a good term for that suggestion, because what Thanos did was a short-sighted use of omnipotence. Erasing all the racists probably looks like a good plan to begin with, but it doesn't address the likelihood of new racists or new prejudices arising later, or create a way to prevent that from happening.
Enlong on
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Riki would have wanted immortality.
That lil guy is all about a nonstop life of hookers and blow.
Meyneth and Fiora shared the latter's body. It's why she didn't recognize Shulk and the others initially... it wasn't Fiora controlling the body at that point. Fiora isn't in charge until she and Shulk are alone on the severed arm.
As far as Shulk is concerned, it's implied that he returned things to more or less the status quo, except for a few small tweaks (IIRC, Fiora has a human body). Which totally fits his character. Even as useful as the Monado was, he wasn't the kind of person to want that power indefinitely, nor did he ever feel like it was his place to remake the world. His motivation was largely to help his friends and others caught in the crossfire between the gods*. Once the threat was over, why would he keep power? Even in the new epilogue, his artificial Monado doesn't have the magical foresight of the original. It's basically just a lightsaber with a few different modes.
See Enlong's reply re: Thanos snap. And, no, I wouldn't want the power of a god.
*Yes, it starts out as a pure revenge story, but once Shulk and the gang learn the truth of the situation they immediately pivot into becoming peacemakers - defeating Zanza because he's the root of the conflict, and coming to peaceful terms with the Mechon. And everything regarding how he handled the Mechon had to do with his humanity, not his power. Which, again, is the point.
If Shulk used the power for something, and then sealed it away somehow thereafter, how is that very different from what he already does at the end of the game? He (presumably) repairs a lot of the damage that had been done to the Bionis, and then casts the power away. But let's say he does more, like extend peoples' lifespans, and then casts the power away. If something bad happens later that that fix doesn't help, isn't he once again responsible for not preventing it? Where does he get to stop and still be considered responsible? Can he ever?
That's something I mentioned before in a reply to Polarite. Whether you're a god and feel the need to use your powers to fix what you perceive as problems, or you turn down godhood and then a lot of bad shit happens that you could've fixed, you're still culpable to some extent. There's always going to be the opportunity cost for what you could have done. The moment he was offered godhood, he became partly responsible for everything that came after. It might feel a little better knowing that you currently can't do anything about what's happening, but there will always be that mea culpa.
If I found a lost cell phone and it turned out to belong to someone rich and powerful who offered me a million dollars for returning it, and I turned it down because I was just doing the right thing, then later my family becomes homeless because we hit a rough financial patch? You bet I would feel guilty for turning down that money. I might not be directly responsible for the homelessness, but knowing I could've fixed it would stay with me.
As the story is told in-game, Dickson tells Shulk that Fiora is dying and she says nothing to dissuade that notion. Shulk is offered godhood and doesn't even have a single thought for the fate of his best friend. He also doesn't say anything about bringing Frontier Village or Colony 6 down gently and safely, nor does he do anything about Alcamoth. A stunning lack of consideration for Riki, Sharla, and Melia. If he cares so much about people having agency, well here is some agency being offered to him. You can say that magicking things around so that everyone is safe would be unearned and he wants to do it by the sweat of his brow, but I would argue it was absolutely earned by virtue of felling Zanza.
It's tremendously out of character for Shulk to not do what he can to help his friends with whatever power is bestowed upon him. When he has the chance to save Sharla from the Mechon, he doesn't just stand back solemnly and say "it's up to all of us to build our own future, sadly Sharla has to protect herself and I can't be expected to interfere."
I hope everyone isn't annoyed that I'm talking about this stuff. If anything sounds hostile it's not intended that way, I just enjoy examining these things. And of course I accept that not everyone needs to agree with me, and indeed most people won't, that's fine. Just digesting the game.
I hope everyone isn't annoyed that I'm talking about this stuff. If anything sounds hostile it's not intended that way, I just enjoy examining these things. And of course I accept that not everyone needs to agree with me, and indeed most people won't, that's fine. Just digesting the game.
Yeah, I'm not angry or anything. I disagree with your take on some stuff, but, well, art is almost always subjective anyway. It's not like we're arguing about facts, but rather our interpretations of fictional events and people. And talking about this is a nice distraction from *gestures at the hellscape that is the USA in the year 2020*.
Impressions, about a week into the game: Just got to the point where I have to do 4 challenges to go see the elves (or whatever the ancient race nobody knows about even though we all live on the same gundam).
Combat is getting a little tedious. Maybe I need to stop and up gear or I'm going about things wrong, but there's these clouds that have shields which take like 2-3 minutes to down. Beating up face-bots sucks without a chain combo ready, though Xorn taught me how to charge it pretty fast as Shulk. Talked to Metal Face a little bit ago - he kinda reminded me of the coward from the intro scene. Even has the same weapon. Maybe the robots are stealing our brains when they eat us? Am I gonna have to fight evil robot Fiora? She didn't get captured, but maybe the blades stole her brain/soul/life-force?
Dixon just had a "I'm hiding something" moment, I wonder if Dunban is in on it. I really liked Dunban in the opening, but the party seems really balanced with Shulk/Reyn/Sharla, so he's sidelined.
Bring on the wise fucking elves.
IIRC clouds have icons that basically say "don't screw with me till you get some ether damage." Which is mostly coming from characters you have yet to recruit.
I really liked Dunban in the opening, but the party seems really balanced with Shulk/Reyn/Sharla, so he's sidelined.
You gotta play the game the way you enjoy it, but I will say that the first time I played the game I thought the same as you. Every party needs a damage dealer, tank, and healer, right? But experimenting with different party setups can be really fruitful in this game.
Chain attacks are an incredible tool that get better and better the further you get. The damage multiplier of each art you use in the attack keeps rising the longer the chain goes while using the same colored art each time. Sharla's arts are almost all blue, while Shulk, Reyn and Dunban all have lots of red arts.
You don't need healing if everything dies fast enough that nobody gets killed.
I'll say it's more like you don't need direct healing. There are a lot of skills that help with evading/shielding damage or healing thru other means that you don't need a true healer.
IIRC clouds have icons that basically say "don't screw with me till you get some ether damage." Which is mostly coming from characters you have yet to recruit.
Those icons mean that they aggro if ether-based abilities are used nearby. As long as you don't set them off you can just walk right past them without them caring. They're mostly only a threat if you're not careful about where you fight other enemies.
IIRC clouds have icons that basically say "don't screw with me till you get some ether damage." Which is mostly coming from characters you have yet to recruit.
Those icons mean that they aggro if ether-based abilities are used nearby. As long as you don't set them off you can just walk right past them without them caring. They're mostly only a threat if you're not careful about where you fight other enemies.
rahkeesh2000 might be referring to the damage-resistance icons; they show two shields before any physical damage readout against them, indicating that they're pretty much cutting the damage in half.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
IIRC clouds have icons that basically say "don't screw with me till you get some ether damage." Which is mostly coming from characters you have yet to recruit.
Those icons mean that they aggro if ether-based abilities are used nearby. As long as you don't set them off you can just walk right past them without them caring. They're mostly only a threat if you're not careful about where you fight other enemies.
rahkeesh2000 might be referring to the damage-resistance icons; they show two shields before any physical damage readout against them, indicating that they're pretty much cutting the damage in half.
Huh, I've apparently forgotten about that visual mechanic entirely since the last time I played.
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Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited June 2020
Still rocking this knife weapon in X. Don't really like the assault rifle but the blade is kind of neat.
I'd like to think 200 hours from now, I'll be able to kill something the size of a skyscraper with it.
Took a break from the story to beat up Territorial Rotbart which I was really satisfying. Even cashing in all my levels I was underleveled 74-81 but thanks to Melia's dots, plenty of healing and Monado armor it was mostly just a waiting game.
Oh, a trick for hunting down advanced art books.
Chests are randomized at opening so find a preferably unique monster (to garuntee the Gold chest) who can drop your art book. Beat him, then just save and reload until the book drops.
Question about Future Connected: since there's nobody to trade with and very few quests that are going to ask for them, is it safe to sell spare collectables and enemy parts? I've been really short on money otherwise.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Question about Future Connected: since there's nobody to trade with and very few quests that are going to ask for them, is it safe to sell spare collectables and enemy parts? I've been really short on money otherwise.
Yeah, it should be. Some quests will ask for one or more collectibles and enemy parts, one later one asked me for bits from those little flying guys and I was glad I had them on hand. But in general I wouldn't worry about it too much.
It might be best to first sell any gems you know you will never need, since there's no other use for them.
I think the vast majority of "collect X" quests in FC are red dots, so it's basically run to a location, kill a few enemies maybe, grab them all quick. A couple things needed specific collectables but nothing rare (and since it marks any that are currently spawned on the map it's very fast to warp around nabbing them).
ARGH!!! I'm missing like 6 people to complete my Community. And I'm already in front of the last boss of Torna. GRRR. Well might as well beat him before going back and picking up whatever townsfolk I missed out on.
1. It is a distilled Xeno experience. Doing what I'd say is 80% of the content (still missing 2 more people for max Community and the Superboss), I love that I got 25 hours of it.
2. You can tell that what they learned here was used on XC:DE. The questing isn't quite at the level it is on DE, but I think it feels a bit better than the base game. Collection nodes are still a PITA without a proper way to track them in game. At least in DE they straight tell you find this stuff on this specific area.
3. Torna itself is a nice middle ground from the expansive areas of the base game and the constrained world of other RPGs. Exploring it felt really nice and the rewards, tho not THAT substantial, felt nice (boss encounters, rare Aux cores, secret areas, etc).
4. The combat I'm two minds of. On one hand, it is REALLY focused. The chances you might overwhelmed with choice are few BUT that means there's only one way to configure this party. Lora will always be Lora and Jin will always be Jin. I kinda miss the flexibility the base games gives you when planning out a party. I hope they find a middle ground on the next game with some customization but without flooding you with TONS of choices.
5. On the story side of things, I wish we got more insight on Minoth. I don't want to go into more spoilers than that. Also, despite being some seeds planted here and there, finding more about Jin from the ending of Torna to the beginning of XC2 would've been great too.
Overall, I feel the next game of the series, whenever or whichever it might be keeps improving on the UI/sidequest side of things.
All skill trees unlocked. Pretty much stopped caring about expert mode since I'm at 94 now - all I have to do is punch level 99 enemies until I hit cap... though I'm not sure if I will. Strictly speaking I probably just need to make some night vision VI gems and I should already be able to kill anything. Haste+double attacks+all double attacks are crits (thanks Dunban!) is really good, and really easy to get set up. And it just brutalizes things because crits fill the party gauge fast, the double attacks speed up talent gauge filling... god it's so dumb and it's not even the stupidest thing you can do.
That said... daze spikes are grade A nonsense. That's pretty much "gem in immunity or suffer".
After failing to get into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 before Xenoblade Chronicles came out, I decided to try over with that one. I'll say it is pretty enjoyable. It is the dream of playing an MMO without having to deal with other people.
I don't say this often, but I feel like the game introduces stuff a little too quickly, without maybe saying why you should be doing all the things it says you can.
Expert Mode seems presented as more optional than it seems. I was overleveled for almost everything before the first important thing happened. It would be odd to play a game about doing side quests without doing most of them.
After failing to get into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 before Xenoblade Chronicles came out, I decided to try over with that one. I'll say it is pretty enjoyable. It is the dream of playing an MMO without having to deal with other people.
I don't say this often, but I feel like the game introduces stuff a little too quickly, without maybe saying why you should be doing all the things it says you can.
Expert Mode seems presented as more optional than it seems. I was overleveled for almost everything before the first important thing happened. It would be odd to play a game about doing side quests without doing most of them.
And it wasn't even a thing in this game until this version of it. I'm so glad I can control my level and still do every side thing.
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FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
Now there's no god anymore so nothing needs to be fed and...Shulk just leaves everything the way it is? So now rather than giving life back to the Bionis people are dying for no purpose at all?
I should note that I am not arguing in favor of immortality for everyone. Ideally, it should be more along the lines of equality for everyone, because long-lived High Entia and millenia-lived Machina is just going to sow dissent among the races as well as stunt development of the arts and sciences. But that's more meta and beyond the scope of the game. Primarily I'm concerned with the fact that death is established as something Zanza needs, and not a biological inevitability. Notably, Meyneth shrugged and gave her own people enormous lifespans. I guess she didn't need to eat?
And what about Meyneth? To paraphrase Mitch Hedberg, she used to be a good person, and she still is, too. I don't think it's too off-base to attribute that to the fact that she wasn't the one who flipped the switch. She remained the same good person she was before because her entire being wasn't torn asunder like Zanza's was. But of course that's speculation.
(XC1 and XC2)
I think the latter option was the way that the comic Irredeemable was set up. Not so much with future sight, but with a Superman-style hero who was able to perceive literally everything happening on Earth with his super senses.
The people of Bionis and Mechonis attempting to work together in harmony is not the same as Zanza approving of it.
Also (XC1 and XC2 ending spoilers)
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
And of course Meyneth is dangerous. She was remote controlled to attack the party by Egil at Galahad Fortress for crying out loud.
The entire point of the game (and Xeno series) can be summarized by these Meyneth quotes: "I finally understand. The futures of our children belong to them alone. Though we are their creators, their lives are theirs to control."
And
"This world belongs to you all. Create a world...with no need for gods."
After seeing what gods and godlike beings have done in the world - even a benevolent one like her - why would Shulk want that kind of power? They're inherently dangerous and it's the mortals who get caught up in their machinations. Even a 'benevolent' one like Meyneth is harmful because the people rely on her completely. She's not an equal to them. She's an ever-living parent who, by her mere presence, impacts the potential of those she created.
People should rise or fall on by their own actions, not because of the whims of a god. Which, again, is Xeno-the-series. Other games had things like the Wave Existence and U-DO which were essentially different kinds of consciousnesses/power that, when interacted with, created a whole shitload of unintended consequences. It wasn't that these entities themselves were bad/evil/whatever, but that humanity made a mistake in looking for external sources to solve their problems, where the real work should be done by us for us.
This idea is actually pretty prevalent in atheism. Where, even if a beneficial god did exist (say, the Christian god), I would not worship it, let alone want to spend eternity with it. I have no desire for a cosmic father figure. I would rather live and die according to my own values and actions than try to appease an authority. And I know I'm not alone, given that I used to spend a lot of time on atheist forums. It's also the kind of idea that underpins other game series outside of Xeno, like the early Shin Megami Tensei games. Or, for something more modern, Fire Emblem: Three Houses (Black Eagles and Golden Deer paths).
TLDR; This stuff is there, but it seems that you missed it.
Like I said...the world already didn't need gods. Zanza did nothing for them. So Shulk asking for that, as if it's some sort of significant statement, is entirely wrong. That's likely why the world we see at the end is a cosmic shrug by Alvis with hardly any differences. It's a gigantic waste of a wish.
Regarding this:
If Shulk already had those beliefs that people should be free to chose their own destinies, it seems easy to conclude that had he accepted godhood, he would've been the kind of god that allowed people that space. Sort of like I've been saying all along, someone who takes some steps to establish a better world than the old one, then steps back, seals away his own power if he needs to, and walks hand in hand with Fiora. He doesn't need to be interfering in every single aspect of everyone's lives.
Would you accept godhood, if given the chance? And then try to be the sort of god who lets everyone live their lives as they see fit, not playing favoritism? Or do you think Shulk probably should've taken the job and did a Thanos snap to get rid of all the racists, at least?
If Shulk used the power for something, and then sealed it away somehow thereafter, how is that very different from what he already does at the end of the game? He (presumably) repairs a lot of the damage that had been done to the Bionis, and then casts the power away. But let's say he does more, like extend peoples' lifespans, and then casts the power away. If something bad happens later that that fix doesn't help, isn't he once again responsible for not preventing it? Where does he get to stop and still be considered responsible? Can he ever?
side note: a "thanos snap" seems like a good term for that suggestion, because what Thanos did was a short-sighted use of omnipotence. Erasing all the racists probably looks like a good plan to begin with, but it doesn't address the likelihood of new racists or new prejudices arising later, or create a way to prevent that from happening.
That lil guy is all about a nonstop life of hookers and blow.
As far as Shulk is concerned, it's implied that he returned things to more or less the status quo, except for a few small tweaks (IIRC, Fiora has a human body). Which totally fits his character. Even as useful as the Monado was, he wasn't the kind of person to want that power indefinitely, nor did he ever feel like it was his place to remake the world. His motivation was largely to help his friends and others caught in the crossfire between the gods*. Once the threat was over, why would he keep power? Even in the new epilogue, his artificial Monado doesn't have the magical foresight of the original. It's basically just a lightsaber with a few different modes.
See Enlong's reply re: Thanos snap. And, no, I wouldn't want the power of a god.
*Yes, it starts out as a pure revenge story, but once Shulk and the gang learn the truth of the situation they immediately pivot into becoming peacemakers - defeating Zanza because he's the root of the conflict, and coming to peaceful terms with the Mechon. And everything regarding how he handled the Mechon had to do with his humanity, not his power. Which, again, is the point.
If I found a lost cell phone and it turned out to belong to someone rich and powerful who offered me a million dollars for returning it, and I turned it down because I was just doing the right thing, then later my family becomes homeless because we hit a rough financial patch? You bet I would feel guilty for turning down that money. I might not be directly responsible for the homelessness, but knowing I could've fixed it would stay with me.
As the story is told in-game, Dickson tells Shulk that Fiora is dying and she says nothing to dissuade that notion. Shulk is offered godhood and doesn't even have a single thought for the fate of his best friend. He also doesn't say anything about bringing Frontier Village or Colony 6 down gently and safely, nor does he do anything about Alcamoth. A stunning lack of consideration for Riki, Sharla, and Melia. If he cares so much about people having agency, well here is some agency being offered to him. You can say that magicking things around so that everyone is safe would be unearned and he wants to do it by the sweat of his brow, but I would argue it was absolutely earned by virtue of felling Zanza.
It's tremendously out of character for Shulk to not do what he can to help his friends with whatever power is bestowed upon him. When he has the chance to save Sharla from the Mechon, he doesn't just stand back solemnly and say "it's up to all of us to build our own future, sadly Sharla has to protect herself and I can't be expected to interfere."
Theres 70% of a fantastic battle theme here.
You're fine, Sporky. We're all nerds here.
Combat is getting a little tedious. Maybe I need to stop and up gear or I'm going about things wrong, but there's these clouds that have shields which take like 2-3 minutes to down. Beating up face-bots sucks without a chain combo ready, though Xorn taught me how to charge it pretty fast as Shulk. Talked to Metal Face a little bit ago - he kinda reminded me of the coward from the intro scene. Even has the same weapon. Maybe the robots are stealing our brains when they eat us? Am I gonna have to fight evil robot Fiora? She didn't get captured, but maybe the blades stole her brain/soul/life-force?
Dixon just had a "I'm hiding something" moment, I wonder if Dunban is in on it. I really liked Dunban in the opening, but the party seems really balanced with Shulk/Reyn/Sharla, so he's sidelined.
Bring on the wise fucking elves.
You gotta play the game the way you enjoy it, but I will say that the first time I played the game I thought the same as you. Every party needs a damage dealer, tank, and healer, right? But experimenting with different party setups can be really fruitful in this game.
Chain attacks are an incredible tool that get better and better the further you get. The damage multiplier of each art you use in the attack keeps rising the longer the chain goes while using the same colored art each time. Sharla's arts are almost all blue, while Shulk, Reyn and Dunban all have lots of red arts.
You don't need healing if everything dies fast enough that nobody gets killed.
And yeah, just ignore the clouds for now, you don't have the best party member for dealing with them yet.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Those icons mean that they aggro if ether-based abilities are used nearby. As long as you don't set them off you can just walk right past them without them caring. They're mostly only a threat if you're not careful about where you fight other enemies.
rahkeesh2000 might be referring to the damage-resistance icons; they show two shields before any physical damage readout against them, indicating that they're pretty much cutting the damage in half.
Huh, I've apparently forgotten about that visual mechanic entirely since the last time I played.
I'd like to think 200 hours from now, I'll be able to kill something the size of a skyscraper with it.
You get your money's worth with that one.
Man I'm thinking about buying a new power cable for my Wii U to play XCX again...
Oh, a trick for hunting down advanced art books.
Yeah, it should be. Some quests will ask for one or more collectibles and enemy parts, one later one asked me for bits from those little flying guys and I was glad I had them on hand. But in general I wouldn't worry about it too much.
It might be best to first sell any gems you know you will never need, since there's no other use for them.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
1. It is a distilled Xeno experience. Doing what I'd say is 80% of the content (still missing 2 more people for max Community and the Superboss), I love that I got 25 hours of it.
2. You can tell that what they learned here was used on XC:DE. The questing isn't quite at the level it is on DE, but I think it feels a bit better than the base game. Collection nodes are still a PITA without a proper way to track them in game. At least in DE they straight tell you find this stuff on this specific area.
3. Torna itself is a nice middle ground from the expansive areas of the base game and the constrained world of other RPGs. Exploring it felt really nice and the rewards, tho not THAT substantial, felt nice (boss encounters, rare Aux cores, secret areas, etc).
4. The combat I'm two minds of. On one hand, it is REALLY focused. The chances you might overwhelmed with choice are few BUT that means there's only one way to configure this party. Lora will always be Lora and Jin will always be Jin. I kinda miss the flexibility the base games gives you when planning out a party. I hope they find a middle ground on the next game with some customization but without flooding you with TONS of choices.
5. On the story side of things, I wish we got more insight on Minoth. I don't want to go into more spoilers than that. Also, despite being some seeds planted here and there, finding more about Jin from the ending of Torna to the beginning of XC2 would've been great too.
Overall, I feel the next game of the series, whenever or whichever it might be keeps improving on the UI/sidequest side of things.
All skill trees unlocked. Pretty much stopped caring about expert mode since I'm at 94 now - all I have to do is punch level 99 enemies until I hit cap... though I'm not sure if I will. Strictly speaking I probably just need to make some night vision VI gems and I should already be able to kill anything. Haste+double attacks+all double attacks are crits (thanks Dunban!) is really good, and really easy to get set up. And it just brutalizes things because crits fill the party gauge fast, the double attacks speed up talent gauge filling... god it's so dumb and it's not even the stupidest thing you can do.
That said... daze spikes are grade A nonsense. That's pretty much "gem in immunity or suffer".
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I don't say this often, but I feel like the game introduces stuff a little too quickly, without maybe saying why you should be doing all the things it says you can.
Expert Mode seems presented as more optional than it seems. I was overleveled for almost everything before the first important thing happened. It would be odd to play a game about doing side quests without doing most of them.
And it wasn't even a thing in this game until this version of it. I'm so glad I can control my level and still do every side thing.