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[Star Wars] Elan Sleazebaggano went home and became a family man

manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?!Registered User regular
You can't escape the Disney canon nerds.
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Posts

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I do not know what that is from

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    Kana
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited November 28
    Star Wars Adventure #25.
    But I think we all knew the answer in our hearts.

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    My assumption had always been that the Emperor was extremely old so even though he looked like shit the dark sides blessing is that he is still up and kicking when anybody else would be long dead. In Revenge his mentors abilities allow you to prolong your own life right?

    Quire.jpg
    TankHammerBahamutZERO
  • It's like, people dont worship Satan cause its cool, though it is, they worship Satan because life SUCKS and church SUCKS and doing everything that dang book says SUCKS it is cold all the time and my garment is coarse and I'll never taste butter before God does something awful and kills me

    DouglasDangerBahamutZERO
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited November 28
    For my money the best exploration of the Dark Side is KotOR2: The Sith Lords
    You don't really go out seeking the Dark Side; people who do that are buffoons who just care about the aesthetic. Instead you approach the Force in a way that lines up with how you approach everything else in your life, and it turns out—sometimes—that you're a huge asshole who's so stubborn that your hate will hold your body together after you've been ripped to shreds by the tidal forces of a planet's death throes

    Wyborn on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    My assumption had always been that the Emperor was extremely old so even though he looked like shit the dark sides blessing is that he is still up and kicking when anybody else would be long dead. In Revenge his mentors abilities allow you to prolong your own life right?

    There is a common theory that the whole "Darth Plaguis" thing was just Palpatine being full of shit and talking about himself.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    For my money the best exploration of the Dark Side is KotOR2: The Sith Lords
    You don't really go out seeking the Dark Side; people who do that are buffoons who just care about the aesthetic. Instead you approach the Force in a way that lines up with how you approach everything else in your life, and it turns out—sometimes—that you're a huge asshole who's so stubborn that your hate will hold your body together after you've been ripped to shreds by the tidal forces of a planet's death throes

    The Sith Lords in KOTOR 2 are legitimately terrifying. They are the epitome of the dark side as a cancer. It's not "natural" it's anti-life. Sion's better off dead, but pain is all he knows. Nihilus will consume all life if left unchecked, and then starve himself. Traya betrayed everything she ever stood for, and achieves nothing in the end.

    KanaSolar
  • TamerBillTamerBill Registered User regular
    My assumption had always been that the Emperor was extremely old so even though he looked like shit the dark sides blessing is that he is still up and kicking when anybody else would be long dead. In Revenge his mentors abilities allow you to prolong your own life right?

    There is a common theory that the whole "Darth Plaguis" thing was just Palpatine being full of shit and talking about himself.

    It's no longer canon, but Plagueis did get a novel. He was a Muun.

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  • WOW what the FUCK, you go to the wookiepedia for Snoke and you know what it says he was? You know what? It says "Humanoid alien" what the flippin flyin FUCK is that are you fuckin kidding me with this shit humanoid alien? Call him a fuckin Flingflongian jesus christ have a little self respect my god

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    My assumption had always been that the Emperor was extremely old so even though he looked like shit the dark sides blessing is that he is still up and kicking when anybody else would be long dead. In Revenge his mentors abilities allow you to prolong your own life right?

    There is a common theory that the whole "Darth Plaguis" thing was just Palpatine being full of shit and talking about himself.

    It's one I personally ascribe to.

    Darth Plagueis is the 'So many people are saying that the Dark Side of the Force is stronger. The best people.'

  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I really liked the Darth Bane trilogy for insight into what the Sith are like. Basically... they suck total ass, all the time! They seek out power, but once they get it, they're unsatisfied by how it turned out and go looking for more powerful power.

    Here are some incidents that show how evil is self defeating and unsatisfying on a base level, for the Sith.
    -Bane gets the most powerful armor in the galaxy. It's lightsaber proof! That's amazing! Oh but wait... it's actually horrible Mummy-esque alien scarab beetles that are constantly just leeching off your Force power which HURTS YOU. All the time! So you're invincible but they're eating your Force powers all the time, and so you're in a large amount of physical and spiritual pain, and your ability to use the Force for any purpose is much lower than you're used to, and you CAN'T take it off. Go Team Sith! Bane has to go chase down a new source of power to basically do surgery on himself to remove the previous source of ultimate power.
    - Bane is disgusted by the in-fighting among the army of the Sith. Because betraying weaker Sith and robbing them or whatever is on brand for the Sith lifestyle, they can't really forbid it. However, it completely screws up their wars against the Jedi when they keep stabbing each other in the back at crucial moments instead of using teamwork to crush the Jedi. So Bane decides, I'll just use a trap to kill ALL the Sith in the army (and a bunch of Jedi too, why not), then I'll start the Rule of Two. The premise being that the Master and Apprentice will do plenty of soft betrayals and cruelties as they go, but maintain their campaigns against the Jedi and galaxy without any interruptions or major failures. But uh... the Apprentice can't be satisfied as a loyal #2 and become a "True Sith" at the height of their powers and ambitions. Likewise, the Master won't EVER be happy stepping down or being defeated. So the step where the Master is killed off and the Apprentice becomes the Master and trains a new Apprentice can NEVER really cleanly happen. The flaws are inherent to how shitty their philosophy is.

    In short, the Sith have crazy powerful skills... that kill them and make them too crazy to be as effective as they could be in theory.

    manwiththemachinegunAndy JoeMancingtom
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    i said this in the podcast thread and i stand by it
    honestly i've never liked the very common angle in EU about how the dark side makes you the monster mash, just putting aside concepts of evil = physical ugliness/good = beauty (the whole THING about Yoda in Empire is how a respected master of the force can also be a swamp gremlin), it doesn't feel very resonant with the mystical themes around temptation in the force. sacrificing things like your appearance for power is not thematically meaningful unless you deeply cared about your appearance, which basically no dark siders do.

    i'm glad the movies don't really subscribe to the theory - snoke and palpatine are the only dark siders portrayed as being Ugly People, and it's implied that that's a combination of injuries and age. it's that classic EU problem of "the movie figures are the platonic ideal and purest state of all possible subjects", so of COURSE any dark side use slowly turns you into Palpatine 2: Force Lightning Boogaloo.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    TamerBill wrote: »
    My assumption had always been that the Emperor was extremely old so even though he looked like shit the dark sides blessing is that he is still up and kicking when anybody else would be long dead. In Revenge his mentors abilities allow you to prolong your own life right?

    There is a common theory that the whole "Darth Plaguis" thing was just Palpatine being full of shit and talking about himself.

    It's no longer canon, but Plagueis did get a novel. He was a Muun.

    The only thing I want from Disney controlling the canon is to exercise the restraint not to have to explain every single goddamn character and camera angle in the movies.

    FencingsaxMunkus BeaverjkylefultonTankHammer
  • Seriously though I am fuckin agog and aghast at this shit like we know what Max Reebos's grand uncle on his mothers side looks like, all them useless Jedi council turds have wookiepedia entries that would make a fuckin library droid blush, but the fuckin MAIN VILLAIN of seven hours of movie doesnt have a species?! Humanoid?!! i can see that cant I!!!!

    FencingsaxShadowenAndy Joe
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    i said this in the podcast thread and i stand by it
    honestly i've never liked the very common angle in EU about how the dark side makes you the monster mash, just putting aside concepts of evil = physical ugliness/good = beauty (the whole THING about Yoda in Empire is how a respected master of the force can also be a swamp gremlin), it doesn't feel very resonant with the mystical themes around temptation in the force. sacrificing things like your appearance for power is not thematically meaningful unless you deeply cared about your appearance, which basically no dark siders do.

    i'm glad the movies don't really subscribe to the theory - snoke and palpatine are the only dark siders portrayed as being Ugly People, and it's implied that that's a combination of injuries and age. it's that classic EU problem of "the movie figures are the platonic ideal and purest state of all possible subjects", so of COURSE any dark side use slowly turns you into Palpatine 2: Force Lightning Boogaloo.

    The Dark Side makes you ugly because it destroys your physical body. It is poison and it starts to kill you when you use it. Meanwhile, the Light Side lets you live a long time and then die a graceful death when it's your time. This is not about pretty people vs ugly people, it's about natural and unnatural.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    and that's a dumb angle

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  • SNOKE ISNT REAL THEY PRANKED THE SCREENPLAY AND NOBODY NOTICED

    FencingsaxShadowen
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I am infinitely amused by Schimp's utter agogness.

    Make that a Poe Dameron Comms Conversation

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  • Moth 13Moth 13 Volcaregular Registered User regular
    edited November 28
    We absolutely will get a bunch of EU Snoke lore once Episode 9 is out and people don't have to keep tiptoeing around the movies anymore.

    Moth 13 on
    Andy Joe
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    i said this in the podcast thread and i stand by it
    honestly i've never liked the very common angle in EU about how the dark side makes you the monster mash, just putting aside concepts of evil = physical ugliness/good = beauty (the whole THING about Yoda in Empire is how a respected master of the force can also be a swamp gremlin), it doesn't feel very resonant with the mystical themes around temptation in the force. sacrificing things like your appearance for power is not thematically meaningful unless you deeply cared about your appearance, which basically no dark siders do.

    i'm glad the movies don't really subscribe to the theory - snoke and palpatine are the only dark siders portrayed as being Ugly People, and it's implied that that's a combination of injuries and age. it's that classic EU problem of "the movie figures are the platonic ideal and purest state of all possible subjects", so of COURSE any dark side use slowly turns you into Palpatine 2: Force Lightning Boogaloo.
    This is probably the one weakness of how the Dark Side is portrayed in Sith Lords, for me; I like to think that they kept the "dark side makes you pale and veiny" because that was BioWare's bag, but it's in there regardless.
    At least Kreia calls you out on how stupid you look and why you seem so self-satisfied with the idea that your body should reflect what you assume of the state of your mind, which is definitely not true of her, the most radically diabolical Sith Lord in the old canon

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    basically the core problem i have with the natural/unnatural divide is that it struggles to answer the question: if the dark side is unnatural, how did it come to naturally exist

    and the films thankfully don't produce this problem, it's entirely an EU read. the films produce a system where what defines the dark side of the force is intent. the light side is about living in harmony with the world. obi-wan passes into what we perceive as a spiritual realm because he simply accepts that he is more than his mortal body, he is a part of the force and the world around him and he is explicitly called more powerful because of this, more powerful because of his forsaking of these earthly trappings. the force has more eastern mythology in it than just clean/unclean. the meaningful depictions of the light side of the force in the films are those where you seek to move in harmony with the world, and the dark side is when you seek to bend the world for you. the force push and the force choke are the same thing. when you are gently moving rocks out of your way - not destroying them, just gently moving them to another part of nature so you can pass through, perhaps even returning them to the same place - you are acting in accord with the light side. when you are actively harming another being, when you are choking them from across the room, you are acting in accord with the dark side. the most iconic dark side power is force lightning, the active creation of energy into the world for your own gain. the fact that it is primarily used to harm someone is merely an extension of the internal selfishness that is likely to arise from the arrogance you have to have in order to believe you have the right to just create energy from nothing into the world like that.

    this is why the battle within oneself for the light side and the dark side is an eternal struggle of self-control, not a skill tree you put points on. to be part of the dark side of the force is to use the force, to use the world, for your own gain. to be part of the light side is to live alongside it.

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited December 4
    Kreia is interesting to me because she's the most textually and thoughtfully evil person in Star Wars canon, and I say "thoughtfully evil" because she's evil, recognizes the qualities in herself that other people would describe that way, and is thoughtful with regards to the ways in which these qualities affect her behavior

    And in spite of that evil, in spite of how rancid her point of view is (and it's almost undercut by her Old Person Racism, which is so mundane as to make her seem much more like a real person), she still has the most fundamentally compelling view of the Force in Star Wars

    I love the idea that she views the Light Side and the Dark Side as two sides of a destructive, hateful coin; one side that refuses to use the power at its command to better the world, and the other that does use its power for short-sighted personal gain that only brings destruction. She sees the Force not as a binary concept but as a function of the people who use it. Except in the cases where she stops and considers the sky and reflects that it's possible that the Force has a plan, has a will to which all other actors must bend, "I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me."

    Mmm! Mm. Good shit.

    Also we just watched ep 3 of the Mandalorian, that shit was allll right

    Wyborn on
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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    and that's a dumb angle

    Steven Miller is 34.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited November 28
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Kreia is interesting to me because she's the most textually and thoughtfully evil person in Star Wars canon, and I say "thoughtfully evil" because she's evil, recognizes the qualities in herself that other people would describe that way, and is thoughtful with regards to the ways in which these qualities affect her behavior
    And in spite of that evil, in spite of how rancid her point of view is (and it's almost undercut by her Old Person Racism, which is so mundane as to make her seem much more like a real person), she still has the most fundamentally compelling view of the Force in Star Wars
    I love the idea that she views the Light Side and the Dark Side as two sides of a destructive, hateful coin; one side that refuses to use the power at its command to better the world, and the other that does use its power for short-sighted personal gain that only brings destruction. She sees the Force not as a binary concept but as a function of the people who use it. Except in the cases where she stops and considers the sky and reflects that it's possible that the Force has a plan, has a will to which all other actors must bend, "I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me."
    Mmm! Mm. Good shit.
    Also we just watched ep 3 of the Mandalorian, that shit was allll right

    I don't agree with Kreia's conclusions, but the thought that went into writing such a complete rational is why I don't think we'll ever see the RPG likes of KOTOR 2 again. Which kind of makes me sad.
    The small, human part of Kreia still would like salvation and recognizes the importance of choosing sides, but her pride and bitterness prevents that. Kreia also hates it if you DON'T pick a light or dark side.

    manwiththemachinegun on
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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I wish KOTOR 2 was remotely fun to play

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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    I love the Rule of Two for Sith Lord and apprentice, but then the EU shat all over that all the time with Palpatine having two apprentices, and other Sith Lords having multiple apprentices.

    I think probably its a good idea, but hard to write for.

  • Moth 13Moth 13 Volcaregular Registered User regular
    It's just an endless daisy chain of apprentices as each apprentice takes a new secret apprentice to try and overthrow their master.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    And then you have the Inquisitorius who are dark side users but specifically NOT apprentices and it feels like stretching that rule a bit

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    The point of the Rule of Two is ALWAYS that the Sith are lying trash. Palpatine is forever grooming a newer, betterer apprentice to make his current one feel like shit. And if the current one kills off the upstart? Good job apprentice, you proved that you deserved that role... for now. They even have Vader take up this abusive behavior in The Force Unleashed. It's the exact plan he proposes to Luke. It's the reason Kylo kills Snoke, Snoke has been openly musing replacing him the WHOLE time.

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  • timspork's ghosttimspork's ghost Master Librarian and Ghostbuster Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    And then you have the Inquisitorius who are dark side users but specifically NOT apprentices and it feels like stretching that rule a bit

    Especially since it seems like all of them so far were pre purge Jedi.

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    As I recall Lucas’s explanation of the dark side is pretty close to Gnome’s. Something like how the dark side and the light side don’t really exist. What they call the light side is using the force as it works naturally but you can’t bend the force to your will to do more and that is the dark side. Using it rather than living in harmony with it.

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  • JuggernutJuggernut Registered User regular
    I've also felt the Dark Side wasn't inherently bad and the Light Side wasn't inherently good.

    Like, the dark side is about passion. Its driven by a sort of innate humanity. Allowing yourself to feel human emotions like love and anger and fear and kind of accepting that those are parts of you and you can use them to your advantage. Where as the light side is more about recognizing the limitations of those emotions and allowing yourself to set them aside when needs be.

    The problem is when one side decides that anger and passion and hate are the means to absolute power and one side decides that the only way to truly master the force and reach a sort of enlightenment is to completely remove all emotion and love and attachment from your life. Like, ideally you'd walk a line right down the middle occassionally dipping into the dark side or the light side but never so much as you'd lose sight of the other.

    Holy goddamned shit this is why I am single I'm fuckin pontificating on the philosophy of space wizards

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  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    As I recall Lucas’s explanation of the dark side is pretty close to Gnome’s. Something like how the dark side and the light side don’t really exist. What they call the light side is using the force as it works naturally but you can’t bend the force to your will to do more and that is the dark side. Using it rather than living in harmony with it.

    You sound like a potentium heretic

    EvilOtaku
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    I've also felt the Dark Side wasn't inherently bad and the Light Side wasn't inherently good.

    Like, the dark side is about passion. Its driven by a sort of innate humanity. Allowing yourself to feel human emotions like love and anger and fear and kind of accepting that those are parts of you and you can use them to your advantage. Where as the light side is more about recognizing the limitations of those emotions and allowing yourself to set them aside when needs be.

    The problem is when one side decides that anger and passion and hate are the means to absolute power and one side decides that the only way to truly master the force and reach a sort of enlightenment is to completely remove all emotion and love and attachment from your life. Like, ideally you'd walk a line right down the middle occassionally dipping into the dark side or the light side but never so much as you'd lose sight of the other.

    Holy goddamned shit this is why I am single I'm fuckin pontificating on the philosophy of space wizards

    George Lucas was ALWAYS extremely insistent that the Dark Side was very bad. Most noticeable when the New Jedi Order book "Traitor" suggested this theory (that some kind of balance would be good actually) and George Lucas Word of God'd the EU so hard that in short succession:
    -the character who gave that TED Talk was revealed as a completely evil Sith Lord
    and
    -the character who listened to that presentation swerved into a Sith Lord ditch

    See also the comic book series Legacy which had Luke's descendant who had lost faith in the Light side and actually used the Dark side for healing, which led to a more complicated discussion of the two sides... until the Dark side completely fails him and he has to rely on true love and the pure Light side to successfully heal the woman he loves.

    manwiththemachinegunEvilOtakuElvenshae
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Juggernut wrote: »
    I've also felt the Dark Side wasn't inherently bad and the Light Side wasn't inherently good.

    Like, the dark side is about passion. Its driven by a sort of innate humanity. Allowing yourself to feel human emotions like love and anger and fear and kind of accepting that those are parts of you and you can use them to your advantage. Where as the light side is more about recognizing the limitations of those emotions and allowing yourself to set them aside when needs be.

    The problem is when one side decides that anger and passion and hate are the means to absolute power and one side decides that the only way to truly master the force and reach a sort of enlightenment is to completely remove all emotion and love and attachment from your life. Like, ideally you'd walk a line right down the middle occassionally dipping into the dark side or the light side but never so much as you'd lose sight of the other.

    Holy goddamned shit this is why I am single I'm fuckin pontificating on the philosophy of space wizards

    Buy me a beer and let's talk about space wizards for a while

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  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    That is a vagina curtain in the OP

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Lucas intended for the Dark Side to be inherently bad and the Light Side to be inherently good. This isn’t like the magic color pie of assholes, this is more him being as black and white in the naming conventions as possible.

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  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    As I recall Lucas’s explanation of the dark side is pretty close to Gnome’s. Something like how the dark side and the light side don’t really exist. What they call the light side is using the force as it works naturally but you can’t bend the force to your will to do more and that is the dark side. Using it rather than living in harmony with it.



    This is the interview I watch when I need to be reminded that George Lucas making Star Wars wasn’t a total fluke

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I watched the first three episodes of The Mandalorian again today with a group of friends who wanted to catch up

    One of them has never seen any Star Wars anything before and is only aware of the franchise through general osmosis

    She really liked it and said she found it pretty easy to follow, although she did get a little confused and thought Baby Yoda was actually Yoda

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  • VeldrinVeldrin Sham bam bamina Registered User regular
    Just remembered one of the little things in Fallen Order that I absolutely loved
    I was not expecting a Star Wars game to cold open with a Mongolian throat metal track blasting over a flythrough of a grimy scrapyard hovering precariously over a gigantic sarlacc pit, but it did and it ruled.

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