We have had the trusty Machete viewing order for a while now and it’s been varying levels of helpful in some situations. But now we have title rearrangement that makes a very nice kind of sense. I’m very pleased with this:
I had absolutely no idea. I am over 30, so clicking a tiktok would make me turn to dust.
I have had coworkers try to teach me tiktok dances, I am disintegrating.
Im 30 and it's just another video site. You click the link, the video plays, and it supports the person who made it rather than some rando's twitter.. if you liked it enough to share it atleast do it right. Not like you have to make an account/download the app or anything. Works the same as YouTube.
I'm not gonna click a link to an external site from here without a million bits of context, and didn't really read the post above before whacking that tweet in. It's really good video, though.
replying to my own video as a commentary, i actually kind of like introspective, vocal Darth Vader. I'm not asking for them to redo the OT but its funny how different the movies might have been if they actually did come out in chronological order. I know there's a lot of nonsense in there (on purpose) but i think the creators are clever enough to get that things could have been tighter in both directions.
replying to my own video as a commentary, i actually kind of like introspective, vocal Darth Vader. I'm not asking for them to redo the OT but its funny how different the movies might have been if they actually did come out in chronological order. I know there's a lot of nonsense in there (on purpose) but i think the creators are clever enough to get that things could have been tighter in both directions.
Aside from the gags, it kind of just highlights the problem with trying to layer story after story on top of this one family. It all gets too damn busy.
It’s the narrative equivalent of Lucas’s approach to the prequel visuals (and most blockbusters, honestly) - just fill up the entire screen with as much as possible, because if the audience is overwhelmed/hooked they’ll overlook other issues.
So the areas where they do change the approach are interesting: cutting Obi-Wan out entirely kind of seems like it could work to cut some minutes, though I’m not sure it’s an improvement. Vader having to reckon with the knowledge that he’s been lied to for decades is a neat idea, though the OT doesn’t really have much there to chew on.
The weirdest thing this made me realize is that the prequels and sequels just really didn’t consider the implications of the stories they were telling: If the prequels are about Anakin’s life and how the Emperor deceived him, why is none of that meaningfully present in the OT? Vader’s joke-speech to Luke in the above video is kind of on the right track - Vader has a better story to manipulate Luke then “I’m your dad, let’s fuck up the galaxy,” but he doesn’t.
From the sequel perspective, if Palpatine’s plan was 30-40 years out from completion, what the fuck are these movies actually about? Is he playing along? Why arrange for an Empire to rise and fall and rise again?
Doesn’t change the actual OT, obviously, but even the additions to the story that I like feel so bolted on when you stop to consider what they suggest about what the OT would be if these things existed beforehand.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
From the sequel perspective, if Palpatine’s plan was 30-40 years out from completion, what the fuck are these movies actually about? Is he playing along? Why arrange for an Empire to rise and fall and rise again?
I despise ROS, but this one's simple enough. This was never his A plan.
What made Palpatine dangerous is that he was the master of B plans. He arranges things so that no matter what happens, he wins. Maul dies? That's fine, I already have Dooku lined up. If the Separatists had taken too much of an insurmountable lead, I'm sure he would have been fine letting the Republic lose (the Jedi would die either way), faking his death, and ruling the galaxy as Sidious. Vader kills Luke? Great, new threat eliminated. Luke kills Vader? Great, powerful older Sith Lord replaced with younger, stronger, but dumber knockoff I can manipulate. Vader kills me and the Rebellion defeats the Empire? Well my ghost's gonna hang around a bit until my cultists put together a shitty clone body for me to inhabit, then we'll try to make a non-shitty clone body for me to take control of while manipulating the lost-causers and neo-Nazi types to rebuild my Empire. Oh hey look, Vader's other kid had a kid...
Now the amount of resources he was somehow able to funnel into his post-death plan B with absolute secrecy makes no fucking sense at all, as well as the First Order just being a front for the Final Order and Snoke being a clone despite earlier stuff I remember saying he was centuries old, etc., to say nothing of "so we know he's dead for really reals now because?"...but there being an extensive plan B for "if my trusted right hand kills me" at least fits the character.
replying to my own video as a commentary, i actually kind of like introspective, vocal Darth Vader. I'm not asking for them to redo the OT but its funny how different the movies might have been if they actually did come out in chronological order. I know there's a lot of nonsense in there (on purpose) but i think the creators are clever enough to get that things could have been tighter in both directions.
Aside from the gags, it kind of just highlights the problem with trying to layer story after story on top of this one family. It all gets too damn busy.
It’s the narrative equivalent of Lucas’s approach to the prequel visuals (and most blockbusters, honestly) - just fill up the entire screen with as much as possible, because if the audience is overwhelmed/hooked they’ll overlook other issues.
So the areas where they do change the approach are interesting: cutting Obi-Wan out entirely kind of seems like it could work to cut some minutes, though I’m not sure it’s an improvement. Vader having to reckon with the knowledge that he’s been lied to for decades is a neat idea, though the OT doesn’t really have much there to chew on.
The weirdest thing this made me realize is that the prequels and sequels just really didn’t consider the implications of the stories they were telling: If the prequels are about Anakin’s life and how the Emperor deceived him, why is none of that meaningfully present in the OT? Vader’s joke-speech to Luke in the above video is kind of on the right track - Vader has a better story to manipulate Luke then “I’m your dad, let’s fuck up the galaxy,” but he doesn’t.
From the sequel perspective, if Palpatine’s plan was 30-40 years out from completion, what the fuck are these movies actually about? Is he playing along? Why arrange for an Empire to rise and fall and rise again?
Doesn’t change the actual OT, obviously, but even the additions to the story that I like feel so bolted on when you stop to consider what they suggest about what the OT would be if these things existed beforehand.
One of the many reasons TROS is so bad. The ST works much better without that reveal because it becomes it's own story about things that happen after the OT.
From the sequel perspective, if Palpatine’s plan was 30-40 years out from completion, what the fuck are these movies actually about? Is he playing along? Why arrange for an Empire to rise and fall and rise again?
I despise ROS, but this one's simple enough. This was never his A plan.
What made Palpatine dangerous is that he was the master of B plans. He arranges things so that no matter what happens, he wins. Maul dies? That's fine, I already have Dooku lined up. If the Separatists had taken too much of an insurmountable lead, I'm sure he would have been fine letting the Republic lose (the Jedi would die either way), faking his death, and ruling the galaxy as Sidious. Vader kills Luke? Great, new threat eliminated. Luke kills Vader? Great, powerful older Sith Lord replaced with younger, stronger, but dumber knockoff I can manipulate. Vader kills me and the Rebellion defeats the Empire? Well my ghost's gonna hang around a bit until my cultists put together a shitty clone body for me to inhabit, then we'll try to make a non-shitty clone body for me to take control of while manipulating the lost-causers and neo-Nazi types to rebuild my Empire. Oh hey look, Vader's other kid had a kid...
Now the amount of resources he was somehow able to funnel into his post-death plan B with absolute secrecy makes no fucking sense at all, as well as the First Order just being a front for the Final Order and Snoke being a clone despite earlier stuff I remember saying he was centuries old, etc., to say nothing of "so we know he's dead for really reals now because?"...but there being an extensive plan B for "if my trusted right hand kills me" at least fits the character.
That’s all perfectly valid fill-in! I’m being more critical because I’m not really willing to meet the movie 15/16 of the way, but Palpatine’s return clouds his motive in the original movies. Then, he’s just an old evil ruler who wants to control it all. He has it all, in fact, and treats the rebellion like a joke. He is presented as a man who has achieved his goals.
But ROTS adds this element where, maybe it’s not about galactic domination, it’s about immortality? And maybe Palpatine isn’t just an evil guy, he’s “All of the Sith,” whatever the hell that is actually supposed to mean.
So where was that element in the OT? If it’s the long-running plan of an ancient evil, I mean, that’s the movie, right? It’s not about this guy finding his place the universe and making it better, it’s about unraveling centuries old schemes and mysteries, letting the audience know what the evil plan is and how the hero is going to stop it. I think that would, logically, look a lot more like ROTS: ancient artifacts, mysterious languages and cyphers to be broken, hidden temples.
If it’s about an evil guy seeking immortality, that’s some shit you’d introduce early on, probably somewhere in the ESB space: we’ve defeated the universe’s evil, but wait, there’s more! He planned for this, and now the movie is how do we overcome this.
But that’s not what the OT is, obviously. It’s a smaller story (somehow) and the Emperor is really just there so Vader has somebody more evil than himself in the picture, allowing for his redemption. Which works great!
This isn’t really meant as some kind of swipe at either prequels or sequels, just a weird thing that I noticed. Both Lucas and JJ introduced these elements that would fundamentally change the nature of what the OT is about if considered as a whole. Lucas, to his bare minimum credit, seemed to be doing it purposefully but incompetently, and better writers have managed to pluck a few interesting strands out of his mess.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I can't deny it felt like they were setting up Finn to be a Jedi in TFA and they backed off hard. It's frustrating to see how Finn and Rose were sidelined so badly.
While I always found it kind of odd that they even introduced Rose to begin with - all of the sudden we're adding more main cast one movie into a trilogy where several the existing cast have already been somewhat short-changed in favor of the Skywalker/Solo family drama stealing so much of the spotlight? At the same time I also think it's pretty criminal how quickly they shoved her under the bus after they made her a thing. It's like two layers of fuck you to the cast from the studio.
Yeah, I can't deny it felt like they were setting up Finn to be a Jedi in TFA and they backed off hard. It's frustrating to see how Finn and Rose were sidelined so badly.
Everyone but Rey really. Even Poe gets nothing except for criminal past and no-homo side character.
Yeah, I can't deny it felt like they were setting up Finn to be a Jedi in TFA and they backed off hard. It's frustrating to see how Finn and Rose were sidelined so badly.
TLJ really decided to ignore that possible plot direction. Then Abrams puts something like that back in RoS when he keeps having Finn yelling that he has something very important to tell Rey. And he never actually does tell her because Abrams is a hack.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Was there anything actually in TFA to suggest that was gonna happen? Far as I remember, it was entirely marketing, and mostly to the effect of hiding the fact that Rey was a jedi.
Was there anything actually in TFA to suggest that was gonna happen? Far as I remember, it was entirely marketing, and mostly to the effect of hiding the fact that Rey was a jedi.
Yes, during the destruction of the Republic capital, Finn hears the screams of the doomed before he sees the Starkiller laser in the sky.
The longer I think about it, the more I think that The Last Jedi's ending isn't a bad ending for the new films or for the series altogether. I don't much care about questions of Is It Or Isn't It Canon?, but Rise of Skywalker really doesn't add anything good IMO, even if it may have individual scenes that are reasonably entertaining in the moment.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Was there anything actually in TFA to suggest that was gonna happen? Far as I remember, it was entirely marketing, and mostly to the effect of hiding the fact that Rey was a jedi.
Yes, during the destruction of the Republic capital, Finn hears the screams of the doomed before he sees the Starkiller laser in the sky.
Plus he managed to break his brainwashing in the first place, which isn't quite as explicit; but between that, the screams, and the fact he wasn't horribly incompetent with the lightsaber, they definitely had enough that they could run with it. Or just make him a pointless support character in the third movie who spouts dubiously funny one-liners. That would work too, whatever.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Huh. I had assumed the screams were other people around him noticing first. Since the big death laser in another star system was visible in the sky for some reason.
Also that article is confusing! The editorializing makes out like he's talking about The Last Jedi but he's referencing his and Kellie Marie Tran's character getting fucked over in favour of Rey n' Kylo?
Finn is really the missed opportunity of the entire series, even from the first movie.
Excluding the possible jedi stuff, he's a stormtrooper who defects. There's a huge amount they could have done with this, but instead they basically immediately forget it. They have Finn whooping about shooting stormtroopers basically in the same day he quits, totally souring any pathos they could have mined from it.
Huh. I had assumed the screams were other people around him noticing first. Since the big death laser in another star system was visible in the sky for some reason.
Also that article is confusing! The editorializing makes out like he's talking about The Last Jedi but he's referencing his and Kellie Marie Tran's character getting fucked over in favour of Rey n' Kylo?
Yeah, he's clearly talking about what they did to their characters in RoS (plus the death threats that came out of his introduction in TFA) while the author is going off on some weird tangent about TLJ. Say what you will about the quality of that movie, but you certainly can't say that Poe, Finn, and Rose were sidelined in it.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Huh. I had assumed the screams were other people around him noticing first. Since the big death laser in another star system was visible in the sky for some reason.
Also that article is confusing! The editorializing makes out like he's talking about The Last Jedi but he's referencing his and Kellie Marie Tran's character getting fucked over in favour of Rey n' Kylo?
Yeah, he's clearly talking about what they did to their characters in RoS (plus the death threats that came out of his introduction in TFA) while the author is going off on some weird tangent about TLJ. Say what you will about the quality of that movie, but you certainly can't say that Poe, Finn, and Rose were sidelined in it.
No, this is not the case. He's explicit about his dislike of decisions in TLJ and especially how he was kept separate from Rey in the main plot of the movie. He's not mad at Abrams and has his back, in his own words. It's not the author making it sound like John is criticizing TLJ, he is actually doing so. The sidelining of his character, no matter what people want to argue otherwise, unequivocally starts in TLJ.
Huh. I had assumed the screams were other people around him noticing first.
Same here.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
What's hilarious is that within and across all three films, Finn got more screen time than pretty much everyone who wasn't Rey: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls027631145/
And yet when you actually look at what he accomplished or how relevant he was to the main plot, it's clear that he didn't actually do much of anything across the trilogy save perhaps the first film. While you can say that in The Last Jedi all of his relevant subplots were boring and/or caused pacing issues, they at least contained interesting ideas and themes (war profiteering, an Interstellar-like appeal to love as the most powerful Force in the universe, etc.), it is in The Rise of Skywalker where you leave the theater with the impression that he spent the vast majority of his time making wahoo noises and screaming Rey's name. Oh and he has yet another boring subplot with with a new character we don't know and don't give a shit about in a film that introduced way too many new characters we don't know and don't give a shit about.
Like, in TLJ you feel like you spend way too much time with Finn because of how boring his subplot is at several points. And yet in TRoS you feel like you spend not enough time with him because of how meaningless his participation is and how ridiculous the overall pacing of the film is. Yet somehow Finn gets a full 7 minutes more screen time in the latter film (17:30 vs 24:45).
TLJ is where Finn becomes yelly angry cowardly joke character guy stuck in a Jar Jar Binks side plot, seems like he's learned a lesson, and then has Rose explain that he's still stupid. Like, the absolute best thing you can say about the handling of Poe and Finn in TLJ is that maybe RJ didn't know what to do with them and didn't put much effort into them because he just didn't care.
If (biggest if I've ever written) TRoS didn't go all in saying 'no homo, no race-mixing' then I'd say it treated Finn better than TLJ, even. But since TROS did do that, I guess TLJ would have had to have like, replace Boyega with a white guy doing blackface to be worse.
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Thanks Bogart!
I agree, that's too much time spent thinking about Star Wars, I say in the Star Wars discussion thread.
I have had coworkers try to teach me tiktok dances, I am disintegrating.
Im 30 and it's just another video site. You click the link, the video plays, and it supports the person who made it rather than some rando's twitter.. if you liked it enough to share it atleast do it right. Not like you have to make an account/download the app or anything. Works the same as YouTube.
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Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Aside from the gags, it kind of just highlights the problem with trying to layer story after story on top of this one family. It all gets too damn busy.
It’s the narrative equivalent of Lucas’s approach to the prequel visuals (and most blockbusters, honestly) - just fill up the entire screen with as much as possible, because if the audience is overwhelmed/hooked they’ll overlook other issues.
So the areas where they do change the approach are interesting: cutting Obi-Wan out entirely kind of seems like it could work to cut some minutes, though I’m not sure it’s an improvement. Vader having to reckon with the knowledge that he’s been lied to for decades is a neat idea, though the OT doesn’t really have much there to chew on.
The weirdest thing this made me realize is that the prequels and sequels just really didn’t consider the implications of the stories they were telling: If the prequels are about Anakin’s life and how the Emperor deceived him, why is none of that meaningfully present in the OT? Vader’s joke-speech to Luke in the above video is kind of on the right track - Vader has a better story to manipulate Luke then “I’m your dad, let’s fuck up the galaxy,” but he doesn’t.
From the sequel perspective, if Palpatine’s plan was 30-40 years out from completion, what the fuck are these movies actually about? Is he playing along? Why arrange for an Empire to rise and fall and rise again?
Doesn’t change the actual OT, obviously, but even the additions to the story that I like feel so bolted on when you stop to consider what they suggest about what the OT would be if these things existed beforehand.
I despise ROS, but this one's simple enough. This was never his A plan.
What made Palpatine dangerous is that he was the master of B plans. He arranges things so that no matter what happens, he wins. Maul dies? That's fine, I already have Dooku lined up. If the Separatists had taken too much of an insurmountable lead, I'm sure he would have been fine letting the Republic lose (the Jedi would die either way), faking his death, and ruling the galaxy as Sidious. Vader kills Luke? Great, new threat eliminated. Luke kills Vader? Great, powerful older Sith Lord replaced with younger, stronger, but dumber knockoff I can manipulate. Vader kills me and the Rebellion defeats the Empire? Well my ghost's gonna hang around a bit until my cultists put together a shitty clone body for me to inhabit, then we'll try to make a non-shitty clone body for me to take control of while manipulating the lost-causers and neo-Nazi types to rebuild my Empire. Oh hey look, Vader's other kid had a kid...
Now the amount of resources he was somehow able to funnel into his post-death plan B with absolute secrecy makes no fucking sense at all, as well as the First Order just being a front for the Final Order and Snoke being a clone despite earlier stuff I remember saying he was centuries old, etc., to say nothing of "so we know he's dead for really reals now because?"...but there being an extensive plan B for "if my trusted right hand kills me" at least fits the character.
One of the many reasons TROS is so bad. The ST works much better without that reveal because it becomes it's own story about things that happen after the OT.
That’s all perfectly valid fill-in! I’m being more critical because I’m not really willing to meet the movie 15/16 of the way, but Palpatine’s return clouds his motive in the original movies. Then, he’s just an old evil ruler who wants to control it all. He has it all, in fact, and treats the rebellion like a joke. He is presented as a man who has achieved his goals.
But ROTS adds this element where, maybe it’s not about galactic domination, it’s about immortality? And maybe Palpatine isn’t just an evil guy, he’s “All of the Sith,” whatever the hell that is actually supposed to mean.
So where was that element in the OT? If it’s the long-running plan of an ancient evil, I mean, that’s the movie, right? It’s not about this guy finding his place the universe and making it better, it’s about unraveling centuries old schemes and mysteries, letting the audience know what the evil plan is and how the hero is going to stop it. I think that would, logically, look a lot more like ROTS: ancient artifacts, mysterious languages and cyphers to be broken, hidden temples.
If it’s about an evil guy seeking immortality, that’s some shit you’d introduce early on, probably somewhere in the ESB space: we’ve defeated the universe’s evil, but wait, there’s more! He planned for this, and now the movie is how do we overcome this.
But that’s not what the OT is, obviously. It’s a smaller story (somehow) and the Emperor is really just there so Vader has somebody more evil than himself in the picture, allowing for his redemption. Which works great!
This isn’t really meant as some kind of swipe at either prequels or sequels, just a weird thing that I noticed. Both Lucas and JJ introduced these elements that would fundamentally change the nature of what the OT is about if considered as a whole. Lucas, to his bare minimum credit, seemed to be doing it purposefully but incompetently, and better writers have managed to pluck a few interesting strands out of his mess.
John Boyega has spoken about how he feels about his treatment in the franchise. Unpredictably to everyone following this thread, he’s not happy.
Imagine the “Holy shit!” moment when Finn and Poe and others turn on their lightsabers. It could have been the movie’s “Avengers Assemble” moment.
Everyone but Rey really. Even Poe gets nothing except for criminal past and no-homo side character.
then gets up, and starts stepping on a succession of rakes.
What you describe would have been a better film.
What an ironically appropriate video for just this situation:
And it's titled "No Ideas Imagination Theories". Fantastic.
I was ready for Force Ghost Luke to go on an inter-galactic recruitment drive. Get a whole crew full of mop kids. The Younglings Revenge!
TLJ really decided to ignore that possible plot direction. Then Abrams puts something like that back in RoS when he keeps having Finn yelling that he has something very important to tell Rey. And he never actually does tell her because Abrams is a hack.
Yes, during the destruction of the Republic capital, Finn hears the screams of the doomed before he sees the Starkiller laser in the sky.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Plus he managed to break his brainwashing in the first place, which isn't quite as explicit; but between that, the screams, and the fact he wasn't horribly incompetent with the lightsaber, they definitely had enough that they could run with it. Or just make him a pointless support character in the third movie who spouts dubiously funny one-liners. That would work too, whatever.
Also that article is confusing! The editorializing makes out like he's talking about The Last Jedi but he's referencing his and Kellie Marie Tran's character getting fucked over in favour of Rey n' Kylo?
Excluding the possible jedi stuff, he's a stormtrooper who defects. There's a huge amount they could have done with this, but instead they basically immediately forget it. They have Finn whooping about shooting stormtroopers basically in the same day he quits, totally souring any pathos they could have mined from it.
Yeah, he's clearly talking about what they did to their characters in RoS (plus the death threats that came out of his introduction in TFA) while the author is going off on some weird tangent about TLJ. Say what you will about the quality of that movie, but you certainly can't say that Poe, Finn, and Rose were sidelined in it.
No, this is not the case. He's explicit about his dislike of decisions in TLJ and especially how he was kept separate from Rey in the main plot of the movie. He's not mad at Abrams and has his back, in his own words. It's not the author making it sound like John is criticizing TLJ, he is actually doing so. The sidelining of his character, no matter what people want to argue otherwise, unequivocally starts in TLJ.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
And yet when you actually look at what he accomplished or how relevant he was to the main plot, it's clear that he didn't actually do much of anything across the trilogy save perhaps the first film. While you can say that in The Last Jedi all of his relevant subplots were boring and/or caused pacing issues, they at least contained interesting ideas and themes (war profiteering, an Interstellar-like appeal to love as the most powerful Force in the universe, etc.), it is in The Rise of Skywalker where you leave the theater with the impression that he spent the vast majority of his time making wahoo noises and screaming Rey's name. Oh and he has yet another boring subplot with with a new character we don't know and don't give a shit about in a film that introduced way too many new characters we don't know and don't give a shit about.
Like, in TLJ you feel like you spend way too much time with Finn because of how boring his subplot is at several points. And yet in TRoS you feel like you spend not enough time with him because of how meaningless his participation is and how ridiculous the overall pacing of the film is. Yet somehow Finn gets a full 7 minutes more screen time in the latter film (17:30 vs 24:45).
If (biggest if I've ever written) TRoS didn't go all in saying 'no homo, no race-mixing' then I'd say it treated Finn better than TLJ, even. But since TROS did do that, I guess TLJ would have had to have like, replace Boyega with a white guy doing blackface to be worse.