If Wanda opens the door to see, let's say, Michael Cera standing there claiming to be Pietro, why should the audience believe him? The only reason the audience gets invested in that is if they also think it could be Pietro.
Honestly, I would have thought that after Lost, people would have learned not to invest too much in speculation.
I could plausibly believe that they recast Pietro because they couldn't get the original actor back or didn't want to, but they wanted to bring back Quicksilver. The casting choice was very intentionally playing with fan expectations about a multiverse.
The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
If I were writing WandaVision, and I were charged with doing 'Pietro, but in a sitcom setting' I would have absolutely done the same thing, because A) it's a funny callback to sitcom tropes where established characters are re-cast all the time and Evan Peters is a better liked Quicksilver, with better comedic timing. You don't even need to touch the x-men stuff for it to be funny and worth it.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
If Wanda opens the door to see, let's say, Michael Cera standing there claiming to be Pietro, why should the audience believe him? The only reason the audience gets invested in that is if they also think it could be Pietro.
Honestly, I would have thought that after Lost, people would have learned not to invest too much in speculation.
I could plausibly believe that they recast Pietro because they couldn't get the original actor back or didn't want to, but they wanted to bring back Quicksilver. The casting choice was very intentionally playing with fan expectations about a multiverse.
The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
The Multiverse was directly called out in Doctor Strange 1.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
If Wanda opens the door to see, let's say, Michael Cera standing there claiming to be Pietro, why should the audience believe him? The only reason the audience gets invested in that is if they also think it could be Pietro.
Honestly, I would have thought that after Lost, people would have learned not to invest too much in speculation.
I could plausibly believe that they recast Pietro because they couldn't get the original actor back or didn't want to, but they wanted to bring back Quicksilver. The casting choice was very intentionally playing with fan expectations about a multiverse.
The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
The Multiverse was directly called out in Doctor Strange 1.
If Wanda opens the door to see, let's say, Michael Cera standing there claiming to be Pietro, why should the audience believe him? The only reason the audience gets invested in that is if they also think it could be Pietro.
Honestly, I would have thought that after Lost, people would have learned not to invest too much in speculation.
I could plausibly believe that they recast Pietro because they couldn't get the original actor back or didn't want to, but they wanted to bring back Quicksilver. The casting choice was very intentionally playing with fan expectations about a multiverse.
The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
The Multiverse was directly called out in Doctor Strange 1.
*Tier 4 comic book pedantry alert, evacuate to safe distance*
Things like the Dark Dimension, Mirror Dimension, Annihilation Zone, Negative Zone, Heaven and Hell, etc aren't the multiverse - each one is an aspect of the universe it's connected to. So, Earth 616 has its own Dark Dimension separate from that of Earth 1610. Far From Home was the first reference to this type of multiverse, and ended up being a lie. Alternate timelines are a gray area, as many of the 616 alternate timelines have been well established to be within the 616 universe, but others later surfaced during incursions as fully independent universes.
The Marvel Multiverse is the array of universes containing an Earth somehow conforming to the Marvel archetype (the Living Tribunal being the universal point of contact, any or all other beings may or may not be the same but the Living Tribunal is omnipresent), each one including any array of attendant sub-dimensions as a part of itself. There's also the Omniverse, which includes the entirety of the Multiverse, the real world, the Marvel-written universes outside the Multiverse that the Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes came from (being distinct from the worlds of the multiverse by the absence of the Living Tribunal), and any universe that Marvel has crossed over with but which they don't own rights to keep around (Star Trek and DC as well as their own attendant multiverses to name some of the many).
A multiverse being composed of different possibilities of divergence choices hasn't been confirmed yet, and I'm not even sure would work as well in what the MCU is trying to be.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
If I were writing WandaVision, and I were charged with doing 'Pietro, but in a sitcom setting' I would have absolutely done the same thing, because A) it's a funny callback to sitcom tropes where established characters are re-cast all the time and Evan Peters is a better liked Quicksilver, with better comedic timing. You don't even need to touch the x-men stuff for it to be funny and worth it.
And "She re-cast Pietro!" is literally a line in the show.
+8
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
If Wanda opens the door to see, let's say, Michael Cera standing there claiming to be Pietro, why should the audience believe him? The only reason the audience gets invested in that is if they also think it could be Pietro.
Honestly, I would have thought that after Lost, people would have learned not to invest too much in speculation.
I could plausibly believe that they recast Pietro because they couldn't get the original actor back or didn't want to, but they wanted to bring back Quicksilver. The casting choice was very intentionally playing with fan expectations about a multiverse.
The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
The Multiverse was directly called out in Doctor Strange 1.
*Tier 4 comic book pedantry alert, evacuate to safe distance*
Things like the Dark Dimension, Mirror Dimension, Annihilation Zone, Negative Zone, Heaven and Hell, etc aren't the multiverse - each one is an aspect of the universe it's connected to. So, Earth 616 has its own Dark Dimension separate from that of Earth 1610. Far From Home was the first reference to this type of multiverse, and ended up being a lie. Alternate timelines are a gray area, as many of the 616 alternate timelines have been well established to be within the 616 universe, but others later surfaced during incursions as fully independent universes.
The Marvel Multiverse is the array of universes containing an Earth somehow conforming to the Marvel archetype (the Living Tribunal being the universal point of contact, any or all other beings may or may not be the same but the Living Tribunal is omnipresent), each one including any array of attendant sub-dimensions as a part of itself. There's also the Omniverse, which includes the entirety of the Multiverse, the real world, the Marvel-written universes outside the Multiverse that the Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes came from (being distinct from the worlds of the multiverse by the absence of the Living Tribunal), and any universe that Marvel has crossed over with but which they don't own rights to keep around (Star Trek and DC as well as their own attendant multiverses to name some of the many).
I only know this because I watched it recently, but they do come right out and say it.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
+8
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kaceypwe stayed bright as lightningwe sang loud as thunderRegistered Userregular
Ok so I’m mostly happy with how things worked out and overall think it was a great series. I will admit to being disappointed that Evan Pietros was seemingly nothing more than a meta gag (so far as we know now).
I do think the show got less interesting in the last couple episodes when the mystery was basically gone and it had transitioned fully back to more of a regular MCU thing, but I don’t really mind because it had to happen at some point.
Honestly, this show has given me a much greater appreciation for both Wanda and Vision, two characters I was pretty eh on before. I’m even looking forward to Dr. Strange 2 more than I was, almost entirely out of curiosity to see how Wanda plays into things.
This show and my rewatch of Age of Ultron has also reinforced that Vision gets a lot of great dialogue.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
Too bad, he's already been in the MCU, we're past him sullying it LOL :P
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
While disappointed that it wasn't actually Pietro, I thought the twist that he was just some guy was great. :rotate:
I think the show was handled pretty spectacularly. It got people talking. It faltered in a few areas, but for the first tv show by Feige, I thought it was a pretty huge success.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
This is the internet being hyperbolic as usual. In a week they'll have moved on to something else shiny to be mad about. And everyone was so ready to speculate based on Pietro but also so unwilling to speculate that it could mean more is funny to me. Everyone immediately jumped to reactionary when in reality it's of course a tease of things to come. It's Marvel slowly but surely having fun with the new chest of toys they got from the Disney Fox merger. That was practically the entire reason for the purchase!
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
This is the internet being hyperbolic as usual. In a week they'll have moved on to something else shiny to be mad about. And everyone was so ready to speculate based on Pietro but also so unwilling to speculate that it could mean more is funny to me. Everyone immediately jumped to reactionary when in reality it's of course a tease of things to come. It's Marvel slowly but surely having fun with the new chest of toys they got from the Disney Fox merger. That was practically the entire reason for the purchase!
Ok now I am confused. Is it that the internet isn't angry, or that the internet hate machine will move on? Cause yeah it will move on, but it won't make the fans happier with you. They will just have a new thing to spew hatred at as well. This doesn't make intentionally set it off a good idea, nor does it make me think Feige is capable of avoiding the same mistake with shows that are already finished.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
There are offhand reddit comments from gamedevs that spawn articles. If casting someone who played a character in a prior movie series sets one off, you probably need to revisit how your fandom is impacting your life. On top of that, actors have to work, so if you set any sort of precedent that people can't be multiple characters over time, no one would take bit superhero parts anymore as it would lock them out of future roles.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
This is the internet being hyperbolic as usual. In a week they'll have moved on to something else shiny to be mad about. And everyone was so ready to speculate based on Pietro but also so unwilling to speculate that it could mean more is funny to me. Everyone immediately jumped to reactionary when in reality it's of course a tease of things to come. It's Marvel slowly but surely having fun with the new chest of toys they got from the Disney Fox merger. That was practically the entire reason for the purchase!
Ok now I am confused. Is it that the internet isn't angry, or that the internet hate machine will move on? Cause yeah it will move on, but it won't make the fans happier with you. They will just have a new thing to spew hatred at as well. This doesn't make intentionally set it off a good idea, nor does it make me think Feige is capable of avoiding the same mistake with shows that are already finished.
The internet, and pop culture writers especially, amplify the voices that are angry about a thing far beyond their actual numbers. Nobody I know in real life gave a shit that Pietro ended up being Ralph, including the guy who texted me at like 11 PM on the day that episode first aired about how excited he was to see fox Pietro.
Trying not to get some corner of the internet irrationally angry about fan theories is like trying to get republicans to stop calling everything left of Reagan socialism.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
There are offhand reddit comments from gamedevs that spawn articles. If casting someone who played a character in a prior movie series sets one off, you probably need to revisit how your fandom is impacting your life. On top of that, actors have to work, so if you set any sort of precedent that people can't be multiple characters over time, no one would take bit superhero parts anymore as it would lock them out of future roles.
Except we know that isn't the problem? This is getting very confusing. No one is mad that Chris Evans didn't turn out to be the Human Torch, or that Josh Brolin wasn't Thanos is Deadpool 2. No one is out there speculating about the DCEU and MCU cross over due to Christian Bale being cast in a Marvel movie. Why people keep pretending its even similar is extremely confusing to me. The lesson here is when actively integrating a very popular set of characters into your existing franchise don't use the exact same actor as a fake out tease with no pay off. This limits actors in an extremely limited way. Specifically don't do exactly what they did.
I also don't understand why people are so focused on invalidating the feelings of others. You can tell people they are wrong to feel a certain way all day long, but it makes you a silly goose in the end. People are entitled to their feelings regardless of what others think. They don't have to be, and really aren't rational. It is amusing that people so invested in telling others how to feel don't get that you can have an emotional reaction to something that has nothing to do with you at all.
The one theory people had that I'm glad didn't happen was that Mephisto was behind all of it. Why didn't I want that?
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
There are offhand reddit comments from gamedevs that spawn articles. If casting someone who played a character in a prior movie series sets one off, you probably need to revisit how your fandom is impacting your life. On top of that, actors have to work, so if you set any sort of precedent that people can't be multiple characters over time, no one would take bit superhero parts anymore as it would lock them out of future roles.
Except we know that isn't the problem? This is getting very confusing. No one is mad that Chris Evans didn't turn out to be the Human Torch, or that Josh Brolin wasn't Thanos is Deadpool 2. Why people keep pretending its even similar is extremely confusing to me. The lesson here is when actively integrating a very popular set of characters into your existing franchise don't use the exact same actor as a fake out tease with no pay off. This limits actors in an extremely limited way. Specifically don't do exactly what they did.
I also don't understand why people are so focused on invalidating the feelings of others. You can tell people they are wrong to feel a certain way all day long, but it makes you a silly goose in the end. People are entitled to their feelings regardless of what others think. They don't have to be, and really aren't rational. It is amusing that people so invested in telling others how to feel don't get that you can have an emotional reaction to something that has nothing to do with you at all.
I don’t think anyone is really saying that no one is angry, just that the impression of widespread anger is exaggerated from what’s truly happening.
I’m bummed that the Quicksilver stuff turned out to be fake, but I’m not angry about it. People might be legit angry about it, but I doubt it’s really all that many. Certainly not nearly as many as online articles would lead you to believe.
You can feel how you want, but if how you got to that feeling is extrapolating context that wasn't there, then maybe you need to examine why you got worked up to start with. It's totally valid to feel disappointed. It's not as valid to then take that disappointment and try to paint Feige and the WV team as meanspirited or whatever, all because they didn't immediately teleport the entire fox cast on screen for the finale. Especially when the x-men in the MCU isn't so much guaranteed as it is inevitable.
My original feeling was that it was a waste of potential, but the more I ruminated on it the more I liked it. It subverted our expectations in a clever way, we got more Evan Peters, and it could very easily leading to more than meets the eye. The story was always meant to be Wanda's, and pulling mega multiversal shenanigans in the series probably would have taken away from her arc.
No one is saying people can't feel things, but people getting angry about the inferences they made and saying it's marvel's fault and they shouldn't do things is silly. They can do what they want and you can choose not to watch next time.
You can feel how you want, but if how you got to that feeling is extrapolating context that wasn't there, then maybe you need to examine why you got worked up to start with. It's totally valid to feel disappointed. It's not as valid to then take that disappointment and try to paint Feige and the WV team as meanspirited or whatever, all because they didn't immediately teleport the entire fox cast on screen for the finale. Especially when the x-men in the MCU isn't so much guaranteed as it is inevitable.
My original feeling was that it was a waste of potential, but the more I ruminated on it the more I liked it. It subverted our expectations in a clever way, we got more Evan Peters, and it could very easily leading to more than meets the eye. The story was always meant to be Wanda's, and pulling mega multiversal shenanigans in the series probably would have taken away from her arc.
I agree with most of this. That is why I stuck with invalidating feelings being, at best, a bit mean. No one has said anything about the specific criticisms in this thread, or anything I replied to. It has almost purely been that people are simply wrong to be angry.
I will point out for the second time in this thread that the series was more than happy to deviate from Wanda's story though. Monica added nothing to the story. Woo and/or Darcy could easily have filled in for any of her minor parts. Ralph Bohner existed for nothing other than a way to tease fans. He didn't actually advance the story in any meaningful way that couldn't have been done better with different characters. SWORD as a whole, and especially White Vision added absolutely nothing to the show. If you cut out everything related to White Vision and left the story as is then the only question becomes "Where is Vision during this fight?" The kids having powers also offers us absolutely nothing. A lot of plot points were thrown in there just for universe building. It is beyond silly to pretend this was a tightly focused story.
Beyond that, it never pays to jerk your fans around. It always pisses them off. I about died laughing at "Not Without My Anus" when South Park did it. The network got death threats they then played on air with their apology. Venture Bros did it and the creators later talked about how they wouldn't be doing that again. You don't tease your fans with something cool to then yank it away to be replaced by nothing. It will amuse a few, and probably get you death threats from others even before our current era of terrible internet.
So when I say I don't trust Feige with his current teasing it is because he didn't learn the lesson Venture Bros, South Park, St. Elmo's Place, and a lot of other shows learned the same hard way. This is a really obvious pattern that show runners occasionally need to learn first hand. Anything just being finished up now will not have had time to change from that lesson. The future might be different, but hey who knows. Admittedly he did have the bad luck of the rumor that Stewart turned down the Prof. X role to get things really going, but I don't think it would have changed much if that hadn't happen.
(Side tangent: I do kinda see your speculation angle mentioned in other posts. I don't think they are going to want to touch the stove again to see how hot it is. If they had left it ambiguous then we would have had some space. As is it would take a serious retcon that has most of the pieces in place to do it (Checkov's Witness Protection person), but might just be safer to walk away from it all together.)
No one is saying people can't feel things, but people getting angry about the inferences they made and saying it's marvel's fault and they shouldn't do things is silly. They can do what they want and you can choose not to watch next time.
Marvel and Feige specifically are absolutely at fault here. They chose to cast who they cast, and leaned into it. The audio description said it was Fox's Quicksilver per this thread. They made references to movies both actors were in. They did all of this during a time where people have been begging for details on how they plan to integrate the X-men, one of if not the most popular of Marvel's franchises. You don't blame the fire for burning you when you play with it.
Having a Monica subplot that mirrors Wanda's own survivors guilt is hardly the same as dumping mutants into the MCU
I think the Monica stuff added to, not distracted from Wanda's arc
I would have absolutely loved that as a Monica plot. If it is there then I completely missed it. I honestly didn't get much at all from Monica in terms of character progression. Whenever I get around to rewatching this I will pay more attention to her.
I will say I don't think it distracted from Wanda's stuff. I think it was largely just not there running alongside it.
Looking ahead now, I hope the answer to who is the big bad is several threats. Have old Fisto unleash Nightmare, who actually serves Chthon... and so on.
Having a Monica subplot that mirrors Wanda's own survivors guilt is hardly the same as dumping mutants into the MCU
I think the Monica stuff added to, not distracted from Wanda's arc
I would have absolutely loved that as a Monica plot. If it is there then I completely missed it. I honestly didn't get much at all from Monica in terms of character progression. Whenever I get around to rewatching this I will pay more attention to her.
I will say I don't think it distracted from Wanda's stuff. I think it was largely just not there running alongside it.
Monica comes back from the snap and, like Wanda, one of the most important people in her life is now dead. Someone that when she last saw them, seemed like they were getting better not worse.
Monica, like Wanda throughout the series, is told who she is by the director. She's not head of Sword, which is pretty much her rightful place as acknowledged by Hayward when she arrives. So she's being ordered around by someone she shouldn't be, and then when she gets to the town she's once again forced to be something she isn't. In the beginning Wanda and her are played against each other when in reality they're going through similar situations of dealing with grief.
When Monica decides to enter the town again, she does so with resolve, of her own free will. Each step she hears people from her past, everyone expecting and wanting different things from her. At first her steps are uneasy as she struggles against the Hex, her many selves seemingly ready to swap spots with her. She realizes who she is in this moment, and suddenly it all comes together for her- literally. Unlike Wanda who had to be awoken to her true self, by the stone and then again by Agatha, Monica finds herself. She literally takes the first steps towards finding herself, literally pulls herself together, and comes out the otherside not only super powered but also knowing exactly who she is, despite the world placing so many expectations and labels on her, she chooses her place.
I don't want to be labeled as angry. I think Pietro was bad storytelling and bad marketing. Angry is a step beyond, I'd describe myself as annoyed and less inclined to engage with further mysteries.
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The MCU has not established that a full-on multiverse exists. All they've shown so far is that going into the past forks the timeline.
The Multiverse was directly called out in Doctor Strange 1.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
And in Ant-Man and the Wasp
*Tier 4 comic book pedantry alert, evacuate to safe distance*
Things like the Dark Dimension, Mirror Dimension, Annihilation Zone, Negative Zone, Heaven and Hell, etc aren't the multiverse - each one is an aspect of the universe it's connected to. So, Earth 616 has its own Dark Dimension separate from that of Earth 1610. Far From Home was the first reference to this type of multiverse, and ended up being a lie. Alternate timelines are a gray area, as many of the 616 alternate timelines have been well established to be within the 616 universe, but others later surfaced during incursions as fully independent universes.
The Marvel Multiverse is the array of universes containing an Earth somehow conforming to the Marvel archetype (the Living Tribunal being the universal point of contact, any or all other beings may or may not be the same but the Living Tribunal is omnipresent), each one including any array of attendant sub-dimensions as a part of itself. There's also the Omniverse, which includes the entirety of the Multiverse, the real world, the Marvel-written universes outside the Multiverse that the Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes came from (being distinct from the worlds of the multiverse by the absence of the Living Tribunal), and any universe that Marvel has crossed over with but which they don't own rights to keep around (Star Trek and DC as well as their own attendant multiverses to name some of the many).
Because Mephisto is a dumb villain and I hate him. The longer it takes for him to sully the MCU the better. That is my unpopular opinion for the day. :P
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I would give better odds of Mephisto being part of the continuing story of Wanda and her kids in Dr Strange than any of the Quicksilver/Ralph stuff continuing.
And "She re-cast Pietro!" is literally a line in the show.
I only know this because I watched it recently, but they do come right out and say it.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I do think the show got less interesting in the last couple episodes when the mystery was basically gone and it had transitioned fully back to more of a regular MCU thing, but I don’t really mind because it had to happen at some point.
Honestly, this show has given me a much greater appreciation for both Wanda and Vision, two characters I was pretty eh on before. I’m even looking forward to Dr. Strange 2 more than I was, almost entirely out of curiosity to see how Wanda plays into things.
This show and my rewatch of Age of Ultron has also reinforced that Vision gets a lot of great dialogue.
Too bad, he's already been in the MCU, we're past him sullying it LOL :P
I'm hoping not. Nightmare or Shuma Gorath would be much better and more interesting of villains.
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Mephisto was shown in stained glass during the Loki trailer. Plan on him showing up.
Not sure he should ever be put in a movie. :?
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Also who wants to follow in David Tenant's footsteps?
He was pretty mean to Nebula in the gauntlet series too.
If WandaVision has taught us anything it is that Feige doesn't understand how to play with fans expectations very well at all. The Quicksilver fake causing anger being something blindingly obvious as my go to example. As a result, I wouldn't really trust anything they "tease" at this stage.
How many people are actually angry?
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I think the show was handled pretty spectacularly. It got people talking. It faltered in a few areas, but for the first tv show by Feige, I thought it was a pretty huge success.
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Enough to spawn multiple articles and posts in this thread telling people they are wrong to be angry at this incredibly dumb move. Enough that one of the actresses got in front of the internet mob to distance herself from the backlash*, Enough that the director is throwing Feige under the bus for the day to day decisions pretty hard. So I would say a fair number.
*To be fair she mostly had to do that because she was part of an unrelated red herring. The internet is terrible.
This is the internet being hyperbolic as usual. In a week they'll have moved on to something else shiny to be mad about. And everyone was so ready to speculate based on Pietro but also so unwilling to speculate that it could mean more is funny to me. Everyone immediately jumped to reactionary when in reality it's of course a tease of things to come. It's Marvel slowly but surely having fun with the new chest of toys they got from the Disney Fox merger. That was practically the entire reason for the purchase!
Ok now I am confused. Is it that the internet isn't angry, or that the internet hate machine will move on? Cause yeah it will move on, but it won't make the fans happier with you. They will just have a new thing to spew hatred at as well. This doesn't make intentionally set it off a good idea, nor does it make me think Feige is capable of avoiding the same mistake with shows that are already finished.
There are offhand reddit comments from gamedevs that spawn articles. If casting someone who played a character in a prior movie series sets one off, you probably need to revisit how your fandom is impacting your life. On top of that, actors have to work, so if you set any sort of precedent that people can't be multiple characters over time, no one would take bit superhero parts anymore as it would lock them out of future roles.
The internet, and pop culture writers especially, amplify the voices that are angry about a thing far beyond their actual numbers. Nobody I know in real life gave a shit that Pietro ended up being Ralph, including the guy who texted me at like 11 PM on the day that episode first aired about how excited he was to see fox Pietro.
Trying not to get some corner of the internet irrationally angry about fan theories is like trying to get republicans to stop calling everything left of Reagan socialism.
Except we know that isn't the problem? This is getting very confusing. No one is mad that Chris Evans didn't turn out to be the Human Torch, or that Josh Brolin wasn't Thanos is Deadpool 2. No one is out there speculating about the DCEU and MCU cross over due to Christian Bale being cast in a Marvel movie. Why people keep pretending its even similar is extremely confusing to me. The lesson here is when actively integrating a very popular set of characters into your existing franchise don't use the exact same actor as a fake out tease with no pay off. This limits actors in an extremely limited way. Specifically don't do exactly what they did.
I also don't understand why people are so focused on invalidating the feelings of others. You can tell people they are wrong to feel a certain way all day long, but it makes you a silly goose in the end. People are entitled to their feelings regardless of what others think. They don't have to be, and really aren't rational. It is amusing that people so invested in telling others how to feel don't get that you can have an emotional reaction to something that has nothing to do with you at all.
I don’t think anyone is really saying that no one is angry, just that the impression of widespread anger is exaggerated from what’s truly happening.
I’m bummed that the Quicksilver stuff turned out to be fake, but I’m not angry about it. People might be legit angry about it, but I doubt it’s really all that many. Certainly not nearly as many as online articles would lead you to believe.
My original feeling was that it was a waste of potential, but the more I ruminated on it the more I liked it. It subverted our expectations in a clever way, we got more Evan Peters, and it could very easily leading to more than meets the eye. The story was always meant to be Wanda's, and pulling mega multiversal shenanigans in the series probably would have taken away from her arc.
This hurts you, Shepard /harbinger
I agree with most of this. That is why I stuck with invalidating feelings being, at best, a bit mean. No one has said anything about the specific criticisms in this thread, or anything I replied to. It has almost purely been that people are simply wrong to be angry.
I will point out for the second time in this thread that the series was more than happy to deviate from Wanda's story though. Monica added nothing to the story. Woo and/or Darcy could easily have filled in for any of her minor parts. Ralph Bohner existed for nothing other than a way to tease fans. He didn't actually advance the story in any meaningful way that couldn't have been done better with different characters. SWORD as a whole, and especially White Vision added absolutely nothing to the show. If you cut out everything related to White Vision and left the story as is then the only question becomes "Where is Vision during this fight?" The kids having powers also offers us absolutely nothing. A lot of plot points were thrown in there just for universe building. It is beyond silly to pretend this was a tightly focused story.
Beyond that, it never pays to jerk your fans around. It always pisses them off. I about died laughing at "Not Without My Anus" when South Park did it. The network got death threats they then played on air with their apology. Venture Bros did it and the creators later talked about how they wouldn't be doing that again. You don't tease your fans with something cool to then yank it away to be replaced by nothing. It will amuse a few, and probably get you death threats from others even before our current era of terrible internet.
So when I say I don't trust Feige with his current teasing it is because he didn't learn the lesson Venture Bros, South Park, St. Elmo's Place, and a lot of other shows learned the same hard way. This is a really obvious pattern that show runners occasionally need to learn first hand. Anything just being finished up now will not have had time to change from that lesson. The future might be different, but hey who knows. Admittedly he did have the bad luck of the rumor that Stewart turned down the Prof. X role to get things really going, but I don't think it would have changed much if that hadn't happen.
(Side tangent: I do kinda see your speculation angle mentioned in other posts. I don't think they are going to want to touch the stove again to see how hot it is. If they had left it ambiguous then we would have had some space. As is it would take a serious retcon that has most of the pieces in place to do it (Checkov's Witness Protection person), but might just be safer to walk away from it all together.)
Marvel and Feige specifically are absolutely at fault here. They chose to cast who they cast, and leaned into it. The audio description said it was Fox's Quicksilver per this thread. They made references to movies both actors were in. They did all of this during a time where people have been begging for details on how they plan to integrate the X-men, one of if not the most popular of Marvel's franchises. You don't blame the fire for burning you when you play with it.
I think the Monica stuff added to, not distracted from Wanda's arc
Better than Civil War 🤠
I would have absolutely loved that as a Monica plot. If it is there then I completely missed it. I honestly didn't get much at all from Monica in terms of character progression. Whenever I get around to rewatching this I will pay more attention to her.
I will say I don't think it distracted from Wanda's stuff. I think it was largely just not there running alongside it.
I wanna see stuff like this.
Monica comes back from the snap and, like Wanda, one of the most important people in her life is now dead. Someone that when she last saw them, seemed like they were getting better not worse.
Monica, like Wanda throughout the series, is told who she is by the director. She's not head of Sword, which is pretty much her rightful place as acknowledged by Hayward when she arrives. So she's being ordered around by someone she shouldn't be, and then when she gets to the town she's once again forced to be something she isn't. In the beginning Wanda and her are played against each other when in reality they're going through similar situations of dealing with grief.
When Monica decides to enter the town again, she does so with resolve, of her own free will. Each step she hears people from her past, everyone expecting and wanting different things from her. At first her steps are uneasy as she struggles against the Hex, her many selves seemingly ready to swap spots with her. She realizes who she is in this moment, and suddenly it all comes together for her- literally. Unlike Wanda who had to be awoken to her true self, by the stone and then again by Agatha, Monica finds herself. She literally takes the first steps towards finding herself, literally pulls herself together, and comes out the otherside not only super powered but also knowing exactly who she is, despite the world placing so many expectations and labels on her, she chooses her place.
I mean that was just my take.