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[XCOM] is a genre. Daemonhunters out on consoles now!

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Each of them provides something different.

    Reapers are for when you are in control of a situation. They let you maintain dominance.

    Skirmishers are for when shit goes sideways and you don't know quite what you need yet. People who reload a save when they're revealed too soon don't appreciate this as much because they don't want shit to ever go sideways, but playing a lot of Ironman taught me the value of these folks.

    (Templars are for when you absolutely, positively need to kill every motherfucker in the room. Accept no substitute.)

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    I've used Templars to tank Sectopods

    ....my teams aren't in stealth a lot

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    I've used Templars to tank Sectopods

    ....my teams aren't in stealth a lot

    Yeah, if you are down to one enemy and have a Templar, they're basically fucked no matter how tough they are.

  • FryFry Registered User regular
    If nothing else, getting two shots is nice for cleaning up those situations when someone rolls low on damage and leaves an enemy at 1 HP.

    That said, I think Worf died on the first mission I took him on, but I had Troi for pretty much my entire campaign. And she was a boss, both with scouting and occasionally with killing groups with the "detonate environmental explosive" ability.

  • EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    If nothing else, getting two shots is nice for cleaning up those situations when someone rolls low on damage and leaves an enemy at 1 HP.

    That said, I think Worf died on the first mission I took him on, but I had Troi for pretty much my entire campaign. And she was a boss, both with scouting and occasionally with killing groups with the "detonate environmental explosive" ability.

    The fact that remote detonations don’t reveal you is nuts , same with the claymores. Banish with extended mags and a repeater delete chosen and sectopods as well. Just a crazy amount of power in their skill set .

  • SaldonasSaldonas See you space cowboy...Registered User regular
    I've been playing LWOTC so long that I had forgotten repeaters exist in the base game. They were so broken.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I like to rotate units and I like having variety so I use all three classes regularly.

    But Templar fits the way I like to play most.

  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    If I were to put the faction heroes to a tier list I'd probably say:
    Reapers
    Templars
    Skirmishers

    But I do still think Skirmishers are very good, as others have said. They're not big playmakers, but they're just good, reliable fire, maneuver, and utility. And I would say they're legitimately strong in the early game when most everyone else still hasn't unlocked all their busted shit and your aim stats are low, but a Skirmisher can still grapple to take two high-ground flanking shots.

    Plus I think commanding presence might be the best ability in the game? At least in terms of winning firefights. Just shuffling an AP onto another unit doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you think about it, in any given situation there's usually one or two units in your squad that have actions that fit that situation best. No matter what other stuff the rest of your units can do, they're not going to be able to match the value of just being able to click that best button again.

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    the main 'problem' with skirmishers is just that most of the stuff they do is redundant with some other class (especially once you get the later game armor/gear), while the reaper and templar both do relatively unique things

    I kinda think skirm should have just been the default ranger, maybe with a bit more of a melee oriented kit, but I guess they needed three unique classes

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    the main 'problem' with skirmishers is just that most of the stuff they do is redundant with some other class (especially once you get the later game armor/gear), while the reaper and templar both do relatively unique things

    I kinda think skirm should have just been the default ranger, maybe with a bit more of a melee oriented kit, but I guess they needed three unique classes

    But default ranger is amazing.

  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    All this talk of War of the Chosen made me look and apparently I picked up that DLC in 2020 but never played it?

    I better fix that.

  • EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    the main 'problem' with skirmishers is just that most of the stuff they do is redundant with some other class (especially once you get the later game armor/gear), while the reaper and templar both do relatively unique things

    I kinda think skirm should have just been the default ranger, maybe with a bit more of a melee oriented kit, but I guess they needed three unique classes

    But default ranger is amazing.

    It kinda already is since it has the equivalent to bladestorm and melee . The big difference is that the shotgun is amazing and the bullpup is weak . Plus the ranger has move and invincibility after kill .

  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Skirmisher has melee options, but I really don't think it's a melee class. I view its ripjack abilities as more of a positioning toolset than a melee toolset.

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    -Loki- wrote: »
    It also comes down to play styles and ease of play. Reapers are just bonkers good, and a lot of people like the sneaky sniper gameplay. Skirmishers are more like regular rangers with a few more tricks.

    I have all three in my squad though and rip any situation apart.

    Checkmate atheists.

    I always have: 1 or 2 reapers. 1 fully specced melee skirmisher ranger almost all left tree or whichever is the melee tree.
    1 stealth specced skirmisher ranger, they are for if the reapers, which I use a lot, are tired or hurt.
    A few of the drone guys, some healers, some tech.
    Different flavours of grenade guys.
    A skirmisher for fun.
    A templar for fun.
    End game is a lot of psychic lads and laddettes.

    With disciple backups of the regular classes. War of the Chosen demands team cycling, so I need at least 3 teams.

    EDIT WAIT I HAVE MISREMEMBERED CLASS NAMES IM THINKING OF THE SWORD DUDERS

    Ok I have this all under control now. Yeah I only have 1 Worf dude for fun, they're kinda naff.

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Everyones all like skirmishers suck and they always have the highest kills on my team and can slaughter shit I really need dead and can one turn a chosen so I dunno man. I don't think this min maxing theory shit yall like so much actually reflects real play.

    My skirmishers were always all starts too, you can force a lot of movement on enemies and do a lot of nasty, nasty tricks.

    Also, realistically, they've got by far the best starting bonus that lets you get your base online quicker, which pays off - who cares if they start to fall off later? They're still really fucking good.

    Templars were the ones I never found much use for - the highs are there, but the highs always felt very very unnecessary and a pain to make work. And why would i bring a templar when i could bring Bob the Archon or Steve the Andromdean and his PSI buddy?

    ...Swear, the walls of my HQ were just covered in posters for the many Steves and Bobs who died valiantly, shot to death by their own team.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    No I have just embarrassingly been thinking of melee rangers this entire time because you know they are melee they are called skirmishers right?

    When was the last time I played Xcom2 you ask? 2021. Apparently it only takes 2 years for the jargon for any specific game to fade from immediate memory.

    Morninglord on
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  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Templars are basically a bunch of good buttons, so even if they don't usually spike as high as like a ranger or a sharpshooter, it's really nice having a class that can just run up and break someone's ribs with near impunity every turn.

    Honestly, I was kinda talking up Skirmishers as the early game hero class of choice, but Templars are really the kings of that. When everyone's got like a base 65% chance to hit it's really nice having Templars who almost never interact with enemy cover and will just kill a trooper every single turn.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I will also freely admit i'm pretty sure i stuck to skirmishers out of sheer stubbornness because everyone kept bad mouthing them and it got Really Annoying, so i made them work and made them work well.

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  • AstharielAsthariel The Book Eater Registered User regular
    Skirmishers, as others already said, suffer from being Pretty Good, while other hero classes are Amazing.

    Also, while Judgement (this is GET OVER HERE skill, right?) is amazing, Wrath, which causes soldier to move to the enemy, is very risky, because literally the worst thing to do in this game is to move too far and activate new pod of enemies.

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    When they are maxed out with with good gear they can be the lynch pin of a hybrid team, and they can do that really well. They might not excel at any particular ability in particular, but they are more flexible than any other class because they can do so many things. You can handle almost anything with them picking up slack and filling up holes if your team composition is balanced.

    But if you have a lopsided super specialist min max team, they're out of place. There's not much they can offer.

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I'm trying to rember what my go-to team was.

    I belive it was some combo of like, Skirmisher, the hacker/support guy, maybe a heavy, a ranger as "fuck you, and you, and YOU", and usually at least one psi. It's been a minute. So generally, yeah it's fair to say i built generalist teams who favored being able to tackle anything, rather than specialist teams. Looking at some old screenshots, i dont have any WoTC ones, but i do have ones of pre-WoTC, which show me using Support, Psi, 2x Heavy, 2x Ranger. So if you knock outa heavy and a ranger for a Skirmisher and a Reaper, that'd fit what i liked to run. Everyone save my Ranger tended to be in the heaviest aror possible for that sweet sweet guided missile.

    ?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

    Also i did find a screenshot of Honory Team member Bob the Archon. Lookit him, he's such a good tank. Working so hard!

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Asthariel wrote: »
    Skirmishers, as others already said, suffer from being Pretty Good, while other hero classes are Amazing.

    Also, while Judgement (this is GET OVER HERE skill, right?) is amazing, Wrath, which causes soldier to move to the enemy, is very risky, because literally the worst thing to do in this game is to move too far and activate new pod of enemies.

    Wrath can be clutch in late phases of a mission where there aren't many enemy pods left but you're running low on grenades and other guaranteed damage.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    It is unfortunate that any high mobility, melee, or aggressive playstyle suffers from how pods work. Which is why Chimera Squad is by far the best tactical XCOM game because it solved all those issues.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Not really. Just push your reaper out to scout past them then you can melee all you like.

    Fake issue.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Not really. Just push your reaper out to scout past them then you can melee all you like.

    Fake issue.

    That just tells you if there is one. What if there is another pack that would be triggered by moving up, what do you do then?

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • RichardRichard Registered User regular
    Since there is new activity in the thread I will sneak in and ask if performance on PlayStation ever got good/ok?

  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Not really. Just push your reaper out to scout past them then you can melee all you like.

    Fake issue.

    That just tells you if there is one. What if there is another pack that would be triggered by moving up, what do you do then?
    When you know where they are, you can usually find some way to move in that doesn't trigger them if you really have to. It's true, sometimes you just don't have any good way to close in, I find that to be pretty rare, especially with how line of play works, and no class is gonna be able to do their gameplan all the time. That's like half the reason to make a balanced team comp, after all.

    Shotguns actually have surprisingly decent range, a quick google tells me that they don't take range penalties until they're more than 11 tiles out. So if you can't proper get in like you want to, a ranger can actually still do solid just doing some normal shooting from cover as long as you're not keeping them far away. IIRC rangers actually have really good aim growth belied by their short range weapons.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    While the pod thing is annoying I do think it gets overstated at times and I feel it's moreso that a lot of people just play in a very risk averse way.

    I do too in the first few months but I feel you can be a lot more aggressive as your tech gets up there.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    While the pod thing is annoying I do think it gets overstated at times and I feel it's moreso that a lot of people just play in a very risk averse way.

    I do too in the first few months but I feel you can be a lot more aggressive as your tech gets up there.

    "Oh no, I pulled an extra pod. Hey Grenadier/Sharpshooter, if you don't mind..."

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Eh, the pod system is just plain dumb. The enemies are completely unaware of you until they're suddenly all totally aware of everywhere your team is at except for stealthed soldiers at which point they all get to leap into cover; it's just a horribly clunky and inorganic system. Until the team starts getting OP, there is SIGNIFICANT risk in ever pushing too far and yeah, even the devs know it's a problem. Which is exactly why they added dumb time-bound secondary objectives for some missions, because they know that nobody experienced with the game will ever want to push across a map quickly without something to basically force them. Even with the time-bound stuff, nine times out of ten I'd rather just let it burn out than push a single square further than I'm ready for.

    It's not like Xenonauts where there's a constant churn of pushing new soldiers through the ranks as the old ones bite it because of a bad call or lucky shot, losing a high-level X-COM soldier is just a pain in the ass.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Eh, gamers will almost always pick the most boring way to play a game then complain that it's boring so I don't fault devs for trying to coax them out of their comfort zone a bit.

    And the pod system is one of those things where sure it can be improved but there probably isn't also just some better system that would make everyone 100% happy. Probably would just have it's own set of problems to overcome.

    Dragkonias on
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Timed objectives is like the only way these games are actually interesting anymore (barring Chimera Squad-style arenas). I
    Now I loved XCOM: Enemy Unknown, but once you twig to the strategy of overwatch crawling across the map, things got pretty tedious.

    Some may not care, but I want them secondary objectives, as well as the guilt for someone dying to get the secondary objective. I eat it up.

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Eh, gamers will almost always pick the most boring way to play a game then complain that it's boring so I don't fault devs for trying to coax them out of their comfort zone a bit.

    And the pod system is one of those things where sure it can be improved but there probably isn't also just some better system that would make everyone 100% happy. Probably would just have it's own set of problems to overcome.

    The only problem I see in Chimera Squad is that it makes maps essentially smaller and removes the exploration or sneaking around aspects. But I can think of various ways to add those back in if you want to. I think in all respects it correctly sheds all the legacy xcom elements so it can perfect the squad based tactical combat aspect.

    Also Phoenix Point seems to work fine mostly just having all enemies active on the map.

    HamHamJ on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Not really. Just push your reaper out to scout past them then you can melee all you like.

    Fake issue.

    That just tells you if there is one. What if there is another pack that would be triggered by moving up, what do you do then?

    No class gets to do what they want all the time. A discovered reaper that has used all its restealth is useless.

    A stealthed reaper in a boss fight or major furball without stealthy ways to engage is dead weight.

    Neither issue makes it a bad class.

    This is flawed analysis. In real play, my meleer melees a lot safely. There are plenty of situations where they are not just useful, but hands down the most powerful clutch member of the team. More than enough to make one or two and keep them upgraded, and take one in a squad to major situations where you expect things to go to shit.

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  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Ah, but it does make me happy that despite how quiet as this thread and XCOM stuff in general has been, it takes so little for us to all crawl back out of the woodwork and start talking classes and builds and tactics again.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited December 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Eh, gamers will almost always pick the most boring way to play a game then complain that it's boring so I don't fault devs for trying to coax them out of their comfort zone a bit.

    And the pod system is one of those things where sure it can be improved but there probably isn't also just some better system that would make everyone 100% happy. Probably would just have it's own set of problems to overcome.

    The only problem I see in Chimera Squad is that it makes maps essentially smaller and removes the exploration or sneaking around aspects. But I can think of various ways to add those back in if you want to. I think in all respects it correctly sheds all the legacy xcom elements so it can perfect the squad based tactical combat aspect.

    Also Phoenix Point seems to work fine mostly just having all enemies active on the map.

    As far as Chimera Squad goes yeah I would have to see it at scale to say if it would work for a standard XCOM. Not only were the maps smaller the stages were also played in waves which while fun in its own right also takes away a lot of the tension of discovery.

    I could see them adding that type of stuff as a mission type but not sure about the whole game.

    As far as PP I can't really comment on that cause I didn't like it and quit after the first few stages. I also think it has a longer TTK than XCOM so it probably can support fights that a more wars of attrition better.

    Dragkonias on
  • EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    cB557 wrote: »
    Ah, but it does make me happy that despite how quiet as this thread and XCOM stuff in general has been, it takes so little for us to all crawl back out of the woodwork and start talking classes and builds and tactics again.

    Sharpshooters suck! By the time they are decent you are already snowballing!

    Think that’s my only xcom hot take other then the landed ufo missions in xcom EW were the best kinds of missions. There are only small ufos in 2

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I think every class is useful in their own way and I like mixing things up just for the fun of it.

    I think Specialist are like the only class I probably bring at least 1 of on every mission simply because as support they are great at enabling everyone else.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I really enjoyed Phoenix Point by the time it was feature complete with all the DLC. It was just a real solid XCOM with lots of very cool options.

    Though the flying DLC was very tedious after a couple times through. It was more of a game than the jet interceptions in Enemy Unknown, but the fact that, to succeed against harder fliers, you had to swap out multiple planes, or get very lucky just happening to have the loadout that specifically countered the enemy's particular bullshit.

  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    I really appreciated that PP stopped your movement if you aggroed something. Really helped break up the monotony of slowly crawling through a map under over watch

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