The only downside, is that it'll be a 5 man unit, which collides with my maxim of "Keep the units as small as possible." However, there's isn't any artillery, shooting isn't an issue.
I normally keep them as small as possible too, but having a 5 wide hammer unit anchoring the center of your army isn't going to kill you, and being able to throw around -4 ld Panic Checks is more than worth it. Besides, your Tyrant and Butcher always have the option of leaving or moving over to join a different unit if you need.
So I just remembered that there's something I've been meaning to ask.
You know how the general rule for what you need to hit with a ranged weapon is 7-bs skill? (So someone with a BS 2 would need fives as 7-2=5.)
Is there a "rule of thumb" like this for normal to hit and to wound rolls?
I hate feeling dependent on that chart, and need a quick way to calculate what someone's to hit is in my head.
Even weapon skill is always 4+ to hit.
If the attacker has a higher WS than the target, it's always 3+ to hit.
If the defenders WS is MORE than double the attacker's WS, you need 5+, otherwise you need 4+ if the defender's is double or less.
So WS 2 needs 4+ to hit WS 4, but needs 5+ to hit WS 5.
WS 3 needs 4+ to hit WS6, but needs 5+ to hit WS7.
Okay, that's not as easy to remember as seven minus the skill, but should help.
Thanks guys. I'd really like to get to the point where I can play an entire game without having to consult a book, so I'm doing my best to memorize all this shit.
Make a quick reference chart or something you can carry in your case and just whip out and keep on the board.
But then games workshop will sue me for infringing on their intellectual properties.
The only downside, is that it'll be a 5 man unit, which collides with my maxim of "Keep the units as small as possible." However, there's isn't any artillery, shooting isn't an issue.
I normally keep them as small as possible too, but having a 5 wide hammer unit anchoring the center of your army isn't going to kill you, and being able to throw around -4 ld Panic Checks is more than worth it. Besides, your Tyrant and Butcher always have the option of leaving or moving over to join a different unit if you need.
So I just remembered that there's something I've been meaning to ask.
You know how the general rule for what you need to hit with a ranged weapon is 7-bs skill? (So someone with a BS 2 would need fives as 7-2=5.)
Is there a "rule of thumb" like this for normal to hit and to wound rolls?
I hate feeling dependent on that chart, and need a quick way to calculate what someone's to hit is in my head.
Even weapon skill is always 4+ to hit.
If the attacker has a higher WS than the target, it's always 3+ to hit.
If the defenders WS is MORE than double the attacker's WS, you need 5+, otherwise you need 4+ if the defender's is double or less.
So WS 2 needs 4+ to hit WS 4, but needs 5+ to hit WS 5.
WS 3 needs 4+ to hit WS6, but needs 5+ to hit WS7.
Okay, that's not as easy to remember as seven minus the skill, but should help.
Thanks guys. I'd really like to get to the point where I can play an entire game without having to consult a book, so I'm doing my best to memorize all this shit.
Make a quick reference chart or something you can carry in your case and just whip out and keep on the board.
But then games workshop will sue me for infringing on their intellectual properties.
kick em in the fucking stones and run away
I'm pretty sure they hold a copyright on that too.
GABBO GABBO GABBO on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
So I'm looking into picking up some Skaven for my first army. Can anyone tell me about how they play or personal experiences with them?
I'm thinking about 1 Warlord, 40 Clanrats, and 10 Stormvermin to start with a nice core 500 pt list.
Also, since I need the core rulebook anyway, I might as well just spend the same amount of money and get Battle for Skull Pass, and use the Dwarves and Goblins to start practicing painting.
Your army, more than any other, will go to absolute shit as the game progresses.
Do not be afraid to go balls out with everything you have as soon as you possibly can.
Good choice!
Pip speaks the truth. Skaven are one army that really gets worst once they start taking casulties as your lose your Ld bonus for ranks. You can help combat this by having deep units.
As for your first list, get a batallion. It has a good mix of troops and is a good base that you can build from. One key element for skaven is unit size. Bigger is better pretty much. Field 25 minimum for most units. I haven't used stormvermin before but everything Ive heard points to the same thing. Plague monks are the only unit I've had any success running in a unit of 20, moslty becuase they are frenzied, therefore immune to psych.
In a 500 point army, I would recommend a Chieftan, or possibly a Warlock. At least 1 unit of 25 Clanrats, much better to have two or make them 30 strong in my opinion. Rat ogres are good and I woud recommend them too. Also: SLAVES. These are seriously the most useful unit in the entire army. They can be used as arrow fodder, speed bumps or to get flanking charges. Pure gold for just 2 points a model.
Something to be aware of: Mighty Empires awards extra points to armies if you have gold. I have 140 gold, so that's 140 points extra I get, thus the higher than 2k list.
I pondered hard on leadbelchers, or some other units, but my thoughts were to get as many ogres on the board as possible. Thoughts? I have an extra 11 points to play with, but I doubt it would get me much, heh.
Also, stats on the Rhinox Cav: 7 attacks (4 @ Str 6, 3 @ Str 4), 5 wounds, 2+ armour save (3+ranged), Large Target, Causes Terror, D3 Impact hits, and some other sucky stuff, but that's the gist.
So, yeah, thoughts?
I question why there's a bruiser generalling your army instead of a Tyrant?
Other than that I think you're in decent shape. Leadbelchers would cost too much that could be better spent on bulls and ironguts. In most lists, you need a decent core of those two units, just so you can take up enough space on the board to not get outflanked to death.
It never ceases to amaze me how much rhinox cav costs, and I can never believe they're worth it, but I keep hearing people rave about them so I keep my mouth shut. I just keep thinking of the 3 units of ironguts + standards you could buy with those points...
As for your 11 points, buy yourself a lookout gnob for the unit that will contain your general with brahmir and your butcher with skullmantle. I assume they're going with the standard carrying ironguts.
With the last 6, buy your bruiser a luck gnoblar. That will put you at 2139
I love Tyrants, but to deck one out, it's 300 points. I thought to go with a Bruiser, thus getting at least 2 more ogres on the table. It's a trade off, aye, and I may revert to a Tryant after I ponder on it.
I played a couple games as Dogs of War and hot damn, they're fun. My friend smashed his heavy TK cav into a unit of 25 Ricco's Republican Guard (armed with pikes :winky:), which let me make 19 strength 4 attacks on him, before his charging attack. I won that combat.
In another game my Slayer Pirates, my last living unit, was charged by something like 2 great eagles, a Tiranoc Chariot and some mounted high elf unit. They survived the initial charge attack and got a couple attacks back. Lost combat, but hey, unbreakable. Next turn I won combat by... 2 I think (2 strength 4 AP attacks per is sexy!) and every one of his units broke. It was rediculous, but hey, it won the game.
But then in another game skinks had their way with my pirates, poison attacks on guys with no armor save is pain.
Tomb Prince w/ Armor of the Ages, Talisman of Protection
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors x 24 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, champion and standard (Prince in this unit)
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Guard x 20 w/ banner of the undying legion
Carrion x 3
Or this
Tomb Prince / Armor of the Ages, Talisman of Protection, Chariot, Great weapon, shield
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors x 20 w/ bows (or two squads of 10)
Skeleton Warriors x 25 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, standard bearer, and champion
Chariots x 3 (prince goes here)
Tomb Scorpion
Ushabti x 3
The first list is aimed at whittling them down with the two units of bowmen, and then getting into combat with the big block and the tomb guard. I'm counting on the fear break after a round or two of combat, and using the carrion to get any warmachines flanks.
The tomb scorpion is more of a hero killer in this list.
The second relies more on holding their units with the two skeleton units, and then flanking with the scorpion and chariots, with the Ushabti in a supporting role.
Both are new lists I haven't played yet, and I can't quite decide which I'd like to try first.
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Ubikoh pete, that's later. maybe we'll be dead by thenRegistered Userregular
So I'm looking into picking up some Skaven for my first army. Can anyone tell me about how they play or personal experiences with them?
I'm thinking about 1 Warlord, 40 Clanrats, and 10 Stormvermin to start with a nice core 500 pt list.
Also, since I need the core rulebook anyway, I might as well just spend the same amount of money and get Battle for Skull Pass, and use the Dwarves and Goblins to start practicing painting.
Your army, more than any other, will go to absolute shit as the game progresses.
Do not be afraid to go balls out with everything you have as soon as you possibly can.
Good choice!
Pip speaks the truth. Skaven are one army that really gets worst once they start taking casulties as your lose your Ld bonus for ranks. You can help combat this by having deep units.
As for your first list, get a batallion. It has a good mix of troops and is a good base that you can build from. One key element for skaven is unit size. Bigger is better pretty much. Field 25 minimum for most units. I haven't used stormvermin before but everything Ive heard points to the same thing. Plague monks are the only unit I've had any success running in a unit of 20, moslty becuase they are frenzied, therefore immune to psych.
In a 500 point army, I would recommend a Chieftan, or possibly a Warlock. At least 1 unit of 25 Clanrats, much better to have two or make them 30 strong in my opinion. Rat ogres are good and I woud recommend them too. Also: SLAVES. These are seriously the most useful unit in the entire army. They can be used as arrow fodder, speed bumps or to get flanking charges. Pure gold for just 2 points a model.
Ah, thanks. I didn't notice there was a battalion box until I looked through the online store. I've been reading a few Skaven forums and I'm hearing a lot about strength in numbers type tactics. Also, they say "keep it cheap" is a good guideline for any single unit.
I really like the idea of separate clans, so I was kinda wondering if say a pure Warlord Clan army would be any type of competitive (I might branch out into a Clan Eshin army later). I see a lot of lists mixing all the units and I guess those are the "best" lists. I'm willing to sacrifice some winning probability for a more cohesive army.
Edit: Also, brainstorm: my first conversion work could be turning Dwarves and Goblins from Battle for Skull Pass into slaves
Honestly, Skaven are a lot more fun to play against when it's a themed list. Most Skaven warlord clans tend to be the same shooty skaven list, but the armies built around a particular clan are always unique and cool.
If you're going to play Skaven, you ABSOLUTELY have to learn to not get frustated when your army starts killing itself off. All your Skryre stuff will blow up, maybe on you, maybe on the army, your Grey Seers will get sucked into the void if their Warpstone chunks don't kill them, and your tunneling teams will end up in some courtyard somewhere miles away.
But its ok because you have tons more in the horde, right?
Skaven do tend to cause a large number of 'Friendly' casulties, but its jsut part of the game. Keeping units big and cheap is a good rule of thumb. Skaven, individually are pretty bad, but when you have lots of them they are decent. Haven't tried spears on clanrats, but HW + Shield works well for a 4+ save.
Don't play a shooty army, really don't. They are the most boring, annoying and frustrating type of army in the game. That doesn't mean you haveto go clan though.
I play a Warlord Clan army which included a grand total of 2 models that can shoot (at 1200 points, at 2k I plann to add some gutter runners), 2 warpfire throwers. I also have 2 massive units of clanrats, 2 units of slaves, some plague monks, some giant rats, some rat ogres and 2 characters. It is easily possible to make a decent Warlord clan that isn't a SAD army.
As for slaves, I currently use BFSP goblins as my slaves. When I get aroudn to it they will be converted up too.
Tomb Prince w/ Armor of the Ages, Talisman of Protection
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors x 24 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, champion and standard (Prince in this unit)
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Guard x 20 w/ banner of the undying legion
Carrion x 3
Or this
Tomb Prince / Armor of the Ages, Talisman of Protection, Chariot, Great weapon, shield
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors x 20 w/ bows (or two squads of 10)
Skeleton Warriors x 25 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, standard bearer, and champion
Tomb Scorpion
Ushabti x 3
The first list is aimed at whittling them down with the two units of bowmen, and then getting into combat with the big block and the tomb guard. I'm counting on the fear break after a round or two of combat, and using the carrion to get any warmachines flanks.
The tomb scorpion is more of a hero killer in this list.
The second relies more on holding their units with the two skeleton units, and then flanking with the scorpion and chariots, with the Ushabti in a supporting role.
Both are new lists I haven't played yet, and I can't quite decide which I'd like to try first.
I'd go with the second. Str 3 bows versus an all toughness 4 army, won't yield you many good results. God help you if he gives his guys +1 toughness. The real threat to Ogres are your chariots, they can crush just about anything in the army.
Errr... he's playing against ORCS 3lwap0. Not ogres.
Mani, what point total is this at?
I'm leaning toward list 1, but I'm too lazy to do the math to figure out your point total, and I want to get an idea of how many orcs you'll be seeing come at you.
When you say "flanking with chariots" I don't really see any chariot but the one your Prince is in.
List one looks like it'd have an easier time with a hordey list. Plink away with your 5+ arrows, let the warriors and tomb guard engage and then swing the bowman in on the flanks if needed.
Errr... he's playing against ORCS 3lwap0. Not ogres.
Mani, what point total is this at?
I'm leaning toward list 1, but I'm too lazy to do the math to figure out your point total, and I want to get an idea of how many orcs you'll be seeing come at you.
When you say "flanking with chariots" I don't really see any chariot but the one your Prince is in.
Oh my bad, there's a unit of 3 chariots in that list too.
This is 1500.
Oh that makes a big difference then. I was wondering why the 2nd list looked so skimpy compared to the first. Didn't think the chariot and the ushabti could have been THAT much more expensive.
In that case, take the 2nd list.
3lwap0 was right about shooting at toughness 4 models, even if he had the race wrong. Your bows will be all 5's to hit and 5's to wound meaning you wont really thin out very many orcs at all.
Your 2nd list has two blocks of skeleton fodder to play catch for his charging orcs, and then you sweep in from the sides with the chariots, ushabti, and find somewhere for your tomb scorp to snuggle up and hurt something.
Its doubtful he'll have more than 2 blocks of infantry unless he's taking a lot more gobbos than orcs. I like your chances with the two blocks of skeleton tar pits to accept the charge from the orcs, and smash his flanks with the chariots and Ushabti.
Its doubtful he'll have more than 2 blocks of infantry unless he's taking a lot more gobbos than orcs. I like your chances with the two blocks of skeleton tar pits to accept the charge from the orcs, and smash his flanks with the chariots and Ushabti.
My only fear is that he's one of the dudes running 500 pts of gobbos from the BFSP set, which could leave me with more big units than I can handle with this list, and those tomb guard are nigh indestructible with that banner.
Its doubtful he'll have more than 2 blocks of infantry unless he's taking a lot more gobbos than orcs. I like your chances with the two blocks of skeleton tar pits to accept the charge from the orcs, and smash his flanks with the chariots and Ushabti.
My only fear is that he's one of the dudes running 500 pts of gobbos from the BFSP set, which could leave me with more big units than I can handle with this list, and those tomb guard are nigh indestructible with that banner.
Well, as I look at your list, I see list 1 tar pit block of skeletons, 1 hammer unit of tomb guard, and the rest are just annoyance units. I don't see your skel archers accomplishing much. 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 10 shots per turn.. You're averaging 1 wound per turn before armor saves. As CC units, the archers aren't much good for anything besides denying rank bonus. You really only have one unit that will hold it's own in CC against orcs.
List 2 has two tar pits, but between the chariots and the ushabti, it has enough hammer units to actually flank and decisively break the units stuck on your skeletons.
Overall, though, I'm not a TK player, so I'm going mostly on theory and conjecture. It just seems like the list with the two blocks of skels and the chariots/ushabti has a good chance of really crushing a couple units of infantry and have some punch left to it. The combats wont be protracted, and you wont lose a lot of your fodder and have troubles winning through the same sort of outnumber/fear tactics on successive combats.
The first list seems to be bent on preying you simply outlast and break them through fear/outnumber. I would worry that if you're facing more than two halfass blocks of infantry, the first round of combat may suck too much out of your skeleton block to continue to be effective for the rest of the game.
You've got a point about the fact that list one doesnt have a real heavy hitting unit, though I can always just res skeletons with the incantation of summoning.
I just wish I'd been able to squeeze 5 more skeletons into that unit thats only 20 strong.
Do you want your whole strategy to hinge in being able to res skeletons though? You don't know what kind of magic defense you're going to see. I'd rather have a better plan in place and have the skeleton raising be a bonus or a backup for your strategy and army composition going badly.
With two liche priests and a casket of souls I feel it's unlikely that my opponent will out-magic me.
I could always squish those two units of skeletons into one unit of 20, giving me three big blocks, and two flankers, but I'm not sure a unit of 20 skeletons would last that long...
No, you're probably right, and I should run the chariot list.
The other bonus of not having to rely heavily on the incantation of summoning is you have that much more magic free for other stuff like the extra attacks and movement.
Yeah, with this list I'm getting three spells + the casket a magic phase.
With the prince in the chariots they have an effective charge range of 24 inches, or two sets of attacks on the charge with the incantation of smiting.
I would have liked to run this list at 2000 instead, as it would have allowed me to run a unit of Tomb Guard another Ushabti, and a King instead of a prince, and I think become a really awesome list, but my opponent only has 1500 pts worth of minis.
I like your chances of using the skeletons as tar-pits and trusting chariot charges and ushabti on the flanks to win combat. That seems a lot more viable and reliable than leaning on block of 24 skeletons being able to win a combat for you with less support. They might do allright against goblins, but orcs will chew them up pretty bad.
Having the ability to throw more magic into the smiting and movement incantations just makes you that much more of a threat in combat. Just res enough to keep your tar-pits able to weather a charge, and then concentrate on smashing flanks with the two hammer units.
On a side note, discussing other Armies with multiple viable options at any given point total always makes me jealous. Ogre lists are probably some of the most cookie-cutter in the game. Its gonna be a long goddamn wait for a new army book, and they better give us a lot more variety. On the positive side, those of us that "get it" with Ogres do quite well as it is. Even though the army is considered under-powered by a lot of people, I have no problem getting wins with it. If we get beefed up at all, Ogres are going to be pretty frightening in the hands of a competent general.
On a side note, discussing other Armies with multiple viable options at any given point total always makes me jealous. Ogre lists are probably some of the most cookie-cutter in the game. Its gonna be a long goddamn wait for a new army book, and they better give us a lot more variety. On the positive side, those of us that "get it" with Ogres do quite well as it is. Even though the army is considered under-powered by a lot of people, I have no problem getting wins with it. If we get beefed up at all, Ogres are going to be pretty frightening in the hands of a competent general.
Oddly enough, there are at least 3 or 4 other strategies I could use today. These are just the two I was most interested in trying out.
I'm a total whore for this kind of thing though. I'm always trying new lists, and I hate playing against people who use the same exact list every time. It's much more fun for me to be able to constantly keep my opponent guessing.
So i'm thinking of taking my gorgers out of the list I posed earlier. 150 points, that's a unit of iron guts. The beasts guy doesn't have any war machines, and little to no shooty, and that's what Gorgers are best at doing. I wonder if i'd be better off with units on the table vs. the gorger flank.
Never thought i'd hear myself say that though. Gorgers are ten kinds of awesome.
Well screw you and your dirty damn versatility. :P
If I owned some rhinox riders, or skrag, I'd put together some slightly different lists. I'd also probably have a lot of money.
For the most part, though, its not worth going away from the standard lots of 3 ogre units of bulls and ironguts.
To be fair, I have over 3000 points of Tomb Kings, so there's a lot of shuffling I can do.
Right now I'm working towards building a themed all chariot list.
So i'm thinking of taking my gorgers out of the list I posed earlier. 150 points, that's a unit of iron guts. The beasts guy doesn't have any war machines, and little to no shooty, and that's what Gorgers are best at doing. I wonder if i'd be better off with units on the table vs. the gorger flank.
Never thought i'd hear myself say that though. Gorgers are ten kinds of awesome.
If you were fielding anything but skrag and 3 bull rhinox riders, I would laugh off any suggestion of removing gorgers. Even without war machines and shooting to send them after, they're still a toughness 5 unbreakable model with killing blow. They can be a one-model tar pit for almost anything that dosn't have the strength to wound them consistantly, and paying 150 points to stick two enemy units in place for a couple turns is totally awesome.
That being said, you could always use more rank and file ogres in a list where half your points are being spent on 4 models.
EDIT: BY the way, 3lwap0, it occurs to me that you can save yourself 90 points by not upgrading ALL of the Rhinox to bull rhinox. It adds 1 strength and one attack to the rhinox, but once one of them causes terror you don't need two more. Admittedly, four St6 attacks is cooler than three St5 attacks, but you could spare yourself some points there if you wanted to.
Alright, I did some swaping around. Bruiser no long has wyrdstone, since Brahmir+Wyrdstone=55, which is 5 too much. Instead, I gave him heavy armour, a brace of hand guns, and a thiefstone. It'll just have to do.
I dropped the bangstick on one of my ogres. The damn thing is worthless after 2 turns usually, since my butchers spend a lot of time in combat. Instead, I gave him a dispell scroll, for a total of 5 dispel scrolls amongst all 3 of my butchers. I know he's bringing a level 4 wizard, and usually 2 level 2's. I can't compete with that, and would rather shut his magic down for a little bit. I may alter that, and give my butcher with the skull mantle a butchers cleaver, 'cause gettin wounds back is dammed nice. I'll chew that one over.
As for the Bull Rhinox, you have a point. Can't large targets be singled out for missle fire? My thoughts is if the champ dies, and I lost terror, all the other rhinox would have it too.
I'm trying to figure out what I could get for another 90 points, besides a third gorger (that I don't have).
I wouldn't bother with the cleaver, it dosn't increase his combat ability any and you can just bloodgruel for wounds.
I would personally take the bangstick over one more scroll. Its helpful for either picking off his mages or using it as dispel fodder to get your other spells off.
Its up to you if you want all three to be bull rhinox, but I just don't see the benefit outweighing the cost. Yeah, as a large target, the bull rhinox may get picked off, but it does have a 4+ save vs shooting and 5 wounds on toughness 5. The only things likely to outright kill it through shooting are siege weapons. Chances are that by the time shooting can do any significant damage to the bull rhinox, it will be mixing it up in combat after just a turn or two.
I think one thing mani you have to relize is me , erandus and our friends all play pretty magic heavy armies. as an orc player i generaly always run with 2 shamans, and if i was running against Tk id roll 3 and then use the bsb that gives you +1 dispell dice per rank. id be running 8 dispell dice and god knows how many dispell scrolls. Depending on how you roll for your power level of the incantation would determine how many dice to use per dispel.
One other thing to look at is his block(s) of orcs most likely biguns on the charge they will be hitting on 3 and wounding on 3..if they ar rolling 2 weapons thats 10 attacks. this is also wether or not he passes his ld test. If hes rolling big blocks of gobos, only thing you have to fear is fanatics, and even then it sounds like you got a plan for them. I would worry less about gobos just cause of their insanely low LD. It would still turn into a war of attrition though . Good luck with your match tonoght none the less.
Draeven on
Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."
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kick em in the fucking stones and run away
I'm pretty sure they hold a copyright on that too.
We'd better watch ourselves.
Good choice!
Pip speaks the truth. Skaven are one army that really gets worst once they start taking casulties as your lose your Ld bonus for ranks. You can help combat this by having deep units.
As for your first list, get a batallion. It has a good mix of troops and is a good base that you can build from. One key element for skaven is unit size. Bigger is better pretty much. Field 25 minimum for most units. I haven't used stormvermin before but everything Ive heard points to the same thing. Plague monks are the only unit I've had any success running in a unit of 20, moslty becuase they are frenzied, therefore immune to psych.
In a 500 point army, I would recommend a Chieftan, or possibly a Warlock. At least 1 unit of 25 Clanrats, much better to have two or make them 30 strong in my opinion. Rat ogres are good and I woud recommend them too. Also: SLAVES. These are seriously the most useful unit in the entire army. They can be used as arrow fodder, speed bumps or to get flanking charges. Pure gold for just 2 points a model.
I'll trade ya. You get the Statue, I take the Casket.
White Dwarf tends to have reference sheets as an extra every now and then. They had one for FB when the latest edition was released. 'Tis very handy.
I don't think I can make that trade.
I love Tyrants, but to deck one out, it's 300 points. I thought to go with a Bruiser, thus getting at least 2 more ogres on the table. It's a trade off, aye, and I may revert to a Tryant after I ponder on it.
In another game my Slayer Pirates, my last living unit, was charged by something like 2 great eagles, a Tiranoc Chariot and some mounted high elf unit. They survived the initial charge attack and got a couple attacks back. Lost combat, but hey, unbreakable. Next turn I won combat by... 2 I think (2 strength 4 AP attacks per is sexy!) and every one of his units broke. It was rediculous, but hey, it won the game.
But then in another game skinks had their way with my pirates, poison attacks on guys with no armor save is pain.
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors (bows) x 10
Skeleton Warriors x 24 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, champion and standard (Prince in this unit)
Tomb Scorpion
Tomb Guard x 20 w/ banner of the undying legion
Carrion x 3
Or this
Tomb Prince / Armor of the Ages, Talisman of Protection, Chariot, Great weapon, shield
Liche Priest w/ hieratic jar, cloak of dunes (hierophant)
Liche Priest w/ Dispell scroll, collar of shapesh, Casket Of Souls
Skeleton Warriors x 20 w/ bows (or two squads of 10)
Skeleton Warriors x 25 w/ hand weapons, shields, light armor, standard bearer, and champion
Chariots x 3 (prince goes here)
Tomb Scorpion
Ushabti x 3
The first list is aimed at whittling them down with the two units of bowmen, and then getting into combat with the big block and the tomb guard. I'm counting on the fear break after a round or two of combat, and using the carrion to get any warmachines flanks.
The tomb scorpion is more of a hero killer in this list.
The second relies more on holding their units with the two skeleton units, and then flanking with the scorpion and chariots, with the Ushabti in a supporting role.
Both are new lists I haven't played yet, and I can't quite decide which I'd like to try first.
Ah, thanks. I didn't notice there was a battalion box until I looked through the online store. I've been reading a few Skaven forums and I'm hearing a lot about strength in numbers type tactics. Also, they say "keep it cheap" is a good guideline for any single unit.
I really like the idea of separate clans, so I was kinda wondering if say a pure Warlord Clan army would be any type of competitive (I might branch out into a Clan Eshin army later). I see a lot of lists mixing all the units and I guess those are the "best" lists. I'm willing to sacrifice some winning probability for a more cohesive army.
Edit: Also, brainstorm: my first conversion work could be turning Dwarves and Goblins from Battle for Skull Pass into slaves
But its ok because you have tons more in the horde, right?
(I love Skaven.)
Ayliana Moonwhisper Ecksus Cerazal
Don't play a shooty army, really don't. They are the most boring, annoying and frustrating type of army in the game. That doesn't mean you haveto go clan though.
I play a Warlord Clan army which included a grand total of 2 models that can shoot (at 1200 points, at 2k I plann to add some gutter runners), 2 warpfire throwers. I also have 2 massive units of clanrats, 2 units of slaves, some plague monks, some giant rats, some rat ogres and 2 characters. It is easily possible to make a decent Warlord clan that isn't a SAD army.
As for slaves, I currently use BFSP goblins as my slaves. When I get aroudn to it they will be converted up too.
I'd go with the second. Str 3 bows versus an all toughness 4 army, won't yield you many good results. God help you if he gives his guys +1 toughness. The real threat to Ogres are your chariots, they can crush just about anything in the army.
Mani, what point total is this at?
I'm leaning toward list 1, but I'm too lazy to do the math to figure out your point total, and I want to get an idea of how many orcs you'll be seeing come at you.
When you say "flanking with chariots" I don't really see any chariot but the one your Prince is in.
List one looks like it'd have an easier time with a hordey list. Plink away with your 5+ arrows, let the warriors and tomb guard engage and then swing the bowman in on the flanks if needed.
Oh snap. I suck.
Oh my bad, there's a unit of 3 chariots in that list too.
This is 1500.
In that case, take the 2nd list.
3lwap0 was right about shooting at toughness 4 models, even if he had the race wrong. Your bows will be all 5's to hit and 5's to wound meaning you wont really thin out very many orcs at all.
Your 2nd list has two blocks of skeleton fodder to play catch for his charging orcs, and then you sweep in from the sides with the chariots, ushabti, and find somewhere for your tomb scorp to snuggle up and hurt something.
Its doubtful he'll have more than 2 blocks of infantry unless he's taking a lot more gobbos than orcs. I like your chances with the two blocks of skeleton tar pits to accept the charge from the orcs, and smash his flanks with the chariots and Ushabti.
My only fear is that he's one of the dudes running 500 pts of gobbos from the BFSP set, which could leave me with more big units than I can handle with this list, and those tomb guard are nigh indestructible with that banner.
Well, as I look at your list, I see list 1 tar pit block of skeletons, 1 hammer unit of tomb guard, and the rest are just annoyance units. I don't see your skel archers accomplishing much. 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 10 shots per turn.. You're averaging 1 wound per turn before armor saves. As CC units, the archers aren't much good for anything besides denying rank bonus. You really only have one unit that will hold it's own in CC against orcs.
List 2 has two tar pits, but between the chariots and the ushabti, it has enough hammer units to actually flank and decisively break the units stuck on your skeletons.
Overall, though, I'm not a TK player, so I'm going mostly on theory and conjecture. It just seems like the list with the two blocks of skels and the chariots/ushabti has a good chance of really crushing a couple units of infantry and have some punch left to it. The combats wont be protracted, and you wont lose a lot of your fodder and have troubles winning through the same sort of outnumber/fear tactics on successive combats.
The first list seems to be bent on preying you simply outlast and break them through fear/outnumber. I would worry that if you're facing more than two halfass blocks of infantry, the first round of combat may suck too much out of your skeleton block to continue to be effective for the rest of the game.
I just wish I'd been able to squeeze 5 more skeletons into that unit thats only 20 strong.
I could always squish those two units of skeletons into one unit of 20, giving me three big blocks, and two flankers, but I'm not sure a unit of 20 skeletons would last that long...
No, you're probably right, and I should run the chariot list.
With the prince in the chariots they have an effective charge range of 24 inches, or two sets of attacks on the charge with the incantation of smiting.
I would have liked to run this list at 2000 instead, as it would have allowed me to run a unit of Tomb Guard another Ushabti, and a King instead of a prince, and I think become a really awesome list, but my opponent only has 1500 pts worth of minis.
Having the ability to throw more magic into the smiting and movement incantations just makes you that much more of a threat in combat. Just res enough to keep your tar-pits able to weather a charge, and then concentrate on smashing flanks with the two hammer units.
On a side note, discussing other Armies with multiple viable options at any given point total always makes me jealous. Ogre lists are probably some of the most cookie-cutter in the game. Its gonna be a long goddamn wait for a new army book, and they better give us a lot more variety. On the positive side, those of us that "get it" with Ogres do quite well as it is. Even though the army is considered under-powered by a lot of people, I have no problem getting wins with it. If we get beefed up at all, Ogres are going to be pretty frightening in the hands of a competent general.
Oddly enough, there are at least 3 or 4 other strategies I could use today. These are just the two I was most interested in trying out.
I'm a total whore for this kind of thing though. I'm always trying new lists, and I hate playing against people who use the same exact list every time. It's much more fun for me to be able to constantly keep my opponent guessing.
If I owned some rhinox riders, or skrag, I'd put together some slightly different lists. I'd also probably have a lot of money.
For the most part, though, its not worth going away from the standard lots of 3 ogre units of bulls and ironguts.
Never thought i'd hear myself say that though. Gorgers are ten kinds of awesome.
To be fair, I have over 3000 points of Tomb Kings, so there's a lot of shuffling I can do.
Right now I'm working towards building a themed all chariot list.
If you were fielding anything but skrag and 3 bull rhinox riders, I would laugh off any suggestion of removing gorgers. Even without war machines and shooting to send them after, they're still a toughness 5 unbreakable model with killing blow. They can be a one-model tar pit for almost anything that dosn't have the strength to wound them consistantly, and paying 150 points to stick two enemy units in place for a couple turns is totally awesome.
That being said, you could always use more rank and file ogres in a list where half your points are being spent on 4 models.
EDIT: BY the way, 3lwap0, it occurs to me that you can save yourself 90 points by not upgrading ALL of the Rhinox to bull rhinox. It adds 1 strength and one attack to the rhinox, but once one of them causes terror you don't need two more. Admittedly, four St6 attacks is cooler than three St5 attacks, but you could spare yourself some points there if you wanted to.
I dropped the bangstick on one of my ogres. The damn thing is worthless after 2 turns usually, since my butchers spend a lot of time in combat. Instead, I gave him a dispell scroll, for a total of 5 dispel scrolls amongst all 3 of my butchers. I know he's bringing a level 4 wizard, and usually 2 level 2's. I can't compete with that, and would rather shut his magic down for a little bit. I may alter that, and give my butcher with the skull mantle a butchers cleaver, 'cause gettin wounds back is dammed nice. I'll chew that one over.
As for the Bull Rhinox, you have a point. Can't large targets be singled out for missle fire? My thoughts is if the champ dies, and I lost terror, all the other rhinox would have it too.
I'm trying to figure out what I could get for another 90 points, besides a third gorger (that I don't have).
I would personally take the bangstick over one more scroll. Its helpful for either picking off his mages or using it as dispel fodder to get your other spells off.
Its up to you if you want all three to be bull rhinox, but I just don't see the benefit outweighing the cost. Yeah, as a large target, the bull rhinox may get picked off, but it does have a 4+ save vs shooting and 5 wounds on toughness 5. The only things likely to outright kill it through shooting are siege weapons. Chances are that by the time shooting can do any significant damage to the bull rhinox, it will be mixing it up in combat after just a turn or two.
One other thing to look at is his block(s) of orcs most likely biguns on the charge they will be hitting on 3 and wounding on 3..if they ar rolling 2 weapons thats 10 attacks. this is also wether or not he passes his ld test. If hes rolling big blocks of gobos, only thing you have to fear is fanatics, and even then it sounds like you got a plan for them. I would worry less about gobos just cause of their insanely low LD. It would still turn into a war of attrition though . Good luck with your match tonoght none the less.
We wouldn't have to if the dude with the lizardmen left his goddamn slaan at home more often.