If they patch it out, I hope they at the same time patch IN a little more danger associated with the witch in Versus mode, because she is a flat-out joke right now and so difficult to take advantage of as infected. I want to feel a little terror when there's a witch coming up. I want to know that she'll be in my way and that we need to watch ALL corners for special infected, salivating at the opportunity to mix shit up for real.
I agree that the Witch is a joke on Normal. I think they should increase the difficulty of her by 1 level on all accounts (Normal's witch more like Advanced's, etc)
Once you learn exactly how a witch works and get over the initial fear of her, she's easy.
Point 1 - See, this is the kind of reasonable solutions I would like to see. You could maybe even make the doors look a little different or reinforced to indicated their special "spawn closet only" status, if necessary.
Point 2 - In order to prevent "cornering," so only one survivor could be in a corner at a time, you'd have to turn on survivor collision, or clipping or whatever it's called. Then you get into the problem of body-blocking and griefing by standing immovably in narrow doorways, safe rooms, etc. And if you want to fix the blocking by making them movable, then you have the problem of people griefing by shoving other survivors into dangerous mobs or off of high spaces to fall to death, and so on.
Yeah, abusing survivor closets (and even the spots which are just as exploitable but just part of the level) would only need a rudimentary fix. Special locked doors and debris in the way would fix this problem in a jiffy.
For people jamming in corners, well, that does require a more elaborate fix. I think making survivors collide would be a terrible idea (griefers everywhere would rejoice), but making survivor bodies always push against each other if they're on top of each other would help. People could still walk through each other, but people trying to stand in the same spot would constantly get pushed off. Someone mentioned a melee "energy bar" earlier and I think that would really help, too. As long as you aren't meleeing near-constantly, you could melee whenever you need it.
I would like to see survivor melees damage each other as well. Obviously, releasing somebody from a smoker or hunter wouldn't cause damage, but if you're throwing punches around like nobody's business then you should be penalized for it. People crammed in a corner would be a lot less durable if they just blindly throw punches whenever something pops up and they end up smacking each other.
As for the infected moving the witch around, I don't see any problem with simply getting her to move to a better spot. Actually dragging her into a group of survivors is pretty lame, though. The devs don't let humans control her for a reason and getting her to follow you around as infected runs against that intent.
The witch is there, it's supposed to be an obstacle to the survivors, the infected players already use her as a tool by standing over her and luring survivors into shooting her, this is just another way of using her against the survivors.
You're right, she's supposed to be an obstacle. However, obstacles aren't supposed to come screaming through a group of survivors while they're trying to defend themselves. The witch is designed to allow smart and/or observant survivors to deal with her quickly and punish them if they're not paying attention. How is dragging her around not running counter to her entire purpose? By that same logic, the infected have every right to block off the elevator with a generator. Sure, it's meant to be used by the tank as a weapon, but blocking people off is just another way of using it against the survivors, right?
Just because the infected or survivors can use something in an unintended way doesn't mean they should use it that way.
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Kris_xK on
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Did you drop reading comprehension?
Their team went first. They camped the weapons closet against our tanks. When our team was up, we did the same thing. And "weapons closet" isn't the same as normal closets.. it's simply the corner of the room where the radio is in the BH finale. Against 4 survivors in a corner, a tank is an easy kill. That's how they killed both our tanks. Our second tank actually was controlled by AI up until it was inside the room with him, when it gave me control at a nice 20% health status.
So, you peeps making a collection of fixes/bug reports/suggestions and sending them all off to GabeN@valvesoftware.com ? Just hoping Valve notices something doesn't help at all, but an email will increase that chance, however insignificant it might be.
Edit: And I'm with Figgy, it's the principle of the thing. I play VS because it's fun, I rarely care if I win or lose.
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Did you drop reading comprehension?
Their team went first. They camped the weapons closet against our tanks. When our team was up, we did the same thing. And "weapons closet" isn't the same as normal closets.. it's simply the corner of the room where the radio is in the BH finale.
Quite frankly, a tank needs to be able to hit more than one person if they are grouped up in a corner/closet. Its questionable whether this should be extended to the special infected.
Gabe's written me back a couple times and once even hooked me up with one of their modelers when I couldn't figure out a Maya to Source issue I had.
What I'm saying is I'm gonna e-mail Gabe now and you guys are gonna see some fucking results. Give it about an hour and then restart your Steams for the update.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, it really makes you wonder how in playtesting they didn't catch the whole problem of Tanks blocking stuff with cars, or other special infected blocking doorways with movable forklifts, etc. Once people can figure out the "punching = moves stuff" concept, the exploit problem would be fairly obvious.
I think the issue is that the team making the game was relatively small. It can't be easy to playtest your own game thoroughly when you're just trying to get it done. There's likely a large amount of tunnel vision in place as well since they likely spent 99% of their time playing the game during the development process just making sure things worked right. I doubt any of the devs thought to go into the game and try to break it or had much time to do so.
You really have to wonder where development teams get their playtesters, though. There always seems to be some glaringly obvious issue that most gamers see right away but somehow got skipped over. Personally, I would have a group of playtesters for the normal stuff and another group of assholes whose entire job is to find ways to screw up the game for everyone else. Then they would play against each other and the assholes would be shot once all the exploits are fixed up.
So, you peeps making a collection of fixes/bug reports/suggestions and sending them all off to GabeN@valvesoftware.com ? Just hoping Valve notices something doesn't help at all, but an email will increase that chance, however insignificant it might be.
Edit: And I'm with Figgy, it's the principle of the thing. I play VS because it's fun, I rarely care if I win or lose.
I would dearly love to believe that this would accomplish something, but sadly, I own the 360 version of the game. In other words, the way Left 4 Dead is for me right now is how it shall be in perpetuity. Valve has yet to give me any indication that they give a rat's ass about keeping the 360 versions of their games nice and playable.
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Did you drop reading comprehension?
Their team went first. They camped the weapons closet against our tanks. When our team was up, we did the same thing. And "weapons closet" isn't the same as normal closets.. it's simply the corner of the room where the radio is in the BH finale.
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the corner for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
There you go, you have now been redeemed on the internets.
Oh oh wait, you're so right my man. When their team spent the entire team in the corner to fight the tanks, we should have done it differently.
We fight the horde in the corner (you know.. the fucking default for that finale) and then when the tank comes and won't come inside, we should have all run outside to give him a sporting chance.. because he was knocking the log around and didn't want to come in to fight us. That makes sense....
If a tank spawns in the sewers, do you guys also jump down to help him out, so his timer doesn't run out? I mean.. if he doesnt want to climb the ladder and get killed, it's only fair right?
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
For the last time, camping the tank is completely legit. The tank is supposed to be forced to attack the survivors.
Yeah, it really makes you wonder how in playtesting they didn't catch the whole problem of Tanks blocking stuff with cars, or other special infected blocking doorways with movable forklifts, etc. Once people can figure out the "punching = moves stuff" concept, the exploit problem would be fairly obvious.
I think the issue is that the team making the game was relatively small. It can't be easy to playtest your own game thoroughly when you're just trying to get it done. There's likely a large amount of tunnel vision in place as well since they likely spent 99% of their time playing the game during the development process just making sure things worked right. I doubt any of the devs thought to go into the game and try to break it or had much time to do so.
You really have to wonder where development teams get their playtesters, though. There always seems to be some glaringly obvious issue that most gamers see right away but somehow got skipped over. Personally, I would have a group of playtesters for the normal stuff and another group of assholes whose entire job is to find ways to screw up the game for everyone else. Then they would play against each other and the assholes would be shot once all the exploits are fixed up.
So, you peeps making a collection of fixes/bug reports/suggestions and sending them all off to GabeN@valvesoftware.com ? Just hoping Valve notices something doesn't help at all, but an email will increase that chance, however insignificant it might be.
Edit: And I'm with Figgy, it's the principle of the thing. I play VS because it's fun, I rarely care if I win or lose.
I would dearly love to believe that this would accomplish something, but sadly, I own the 360 version of the game. In other words, the way Left 4 Dead is for me right now is how it shall be in perpetuity. Valve has yet to give me any indication that they give a rat's ass about keeping the 360 versions of their games nice and playable.
Well they recently announced a plethora of fixes for the X360 version of TF2, and they also fixed the glitching in L4D. I'm sure they're trying to makeup for their lack of console support over the years.
I've read several times that if not Gabe, someone actually reads every legitimate email sent to that address, and that many issues have been fixed by a simple email.
I forsee a new mythos starting up here so 400 years into the future they will talk of merry old newell whose codemonkeys used to bestow great gifts of software unto the people
4) You do this because Melee is overpowered? Last I checked, both teams can melee when they play survivors, and your team did it in spades as well. In fact, you guys were the ones that decided to set the standard of camping the weapons closet corner in the finale when the tank came. We did the same when our turn came, and when you (I'm pretty sure it was you who controlled the tank) sat outside the house knocking the log around for like 10 fucking minutes. Finally I got sick of sitting in there and ran out to start an actual fight. (Yeah, log/car smacking to stop the Control timer is an exploit too)
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
For the last time, camping the tank is completely legit. The tank is supposed to be forced to attack the survivors.
People disagree based on some things in the commentary.
The control bar was added, so that once the AID spawned a tank where it wanted the battle to take place, it wouldn't run off and hide in a better spot.
Now, some people take the "better spot" aspect, and say of course the survivors should be able to run backwards to fight the tank where they would prefer it. The tank wouldn't have a control bar if the player wasn't supposed to give chase no matter what, so infected players need to stop being whiny bitches.
Others take the "AID spawned it there for a reason" aspect, and say that the AID wanted the tank encounter there, so the tank should be able to stay there and wait, should the opportunity present itself. Even if the AI took over the tank, the AI tank would wait there for the survivors to show up anyway, thus the Survivors are just trying to take advantage of the system to fight the easier tank rather than the one given to them, so Survivor players need to stop being whiny bitches.
We fight the horde in the corner (you know.. the fucking default for that finale) and then when the tank comes and won't come inside, we should have all run outside to give him a sporting chance.. because he was knocking the log around and didn't want to come in to fight us. That makes sense....
If a tank spawns in the sewers, do you guys also jump down to help him out, so his timer doesn't run out? I mean.. if he doesnt want to climb the ladder and get killed, it's only fair right?
You're out of your element.
You clearly didnt think before you posted this.
You sarcastically (my feelings! THEY BURN!) comment that maybe you should all leave your campfire and go outside to give the tank a sporting chance.
You maintain that the tank had an unfair advantage using the log... when you're all camped in the corner with autoshotties pointed at the door waiting for the tank to come through.
....
Do you see where this is going or do I need to spell it out?
I may be out of my element, but you're just a whining hypocrite.
For the last time, camping the tank is completely legit. The tank is supposed to be forced to attack the survivors.
You are correct. The tank is supposed to forced to fight the survivors. But on the same hand, the survivors are supposed to be trying to escape, not making puppies in some closet.
You really have to wonder where development teams get their playtesters, though. There always seems to be some glaringly obvious issue that most gamers see right away but somehow got skipped over. Personally, I would have a group of playtesters for the normal stuff and another group of assholes whose entire job is to find ways to screw up the game for everyone else. Then they would play against each other and the assholes would be shot once all the exploits are fixed up.
In the commentary they say that Valve employees bring in family members to help playtest the game. No doubt the dev team tries to break the game, but you can only look through your own work for so long before you just want to be done with it.
Also, how do you stand in a closet and kill a Tank? Unless you have no idea how to play you should be mopping them up in close quarters.
It's a bit far-fetched in that it will never happen, but I would like to see weapons break from overzealous use of melee, or different rates for different weapons. Scatter weapons around a little more, which not only would help out the atmosphere, but would be available for replacement.
Congrats! You got an autoshotgun. Better not slap people in the fucking skull too many times lest you bend it up. Sure, it's not really all that realistic, but fuck, those weapons probably have seen better days to begin with. Kind of a tradeoff, too, since I'm of the camp that thinks there should be an incentive to use T1 weapons.
Another solution to melee would be to correlate a kind of melee mod to health color. You get 7 or 8 swings before shit starts slowing down if you're green, 5 or 6 when you're yellow, and 3 or 4 when you're red.
Mustachio Jones on
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
We fight the horde in the corner (you know.. the fucking default for that finale) and then when the tank comes and won't come inside, we should have all run outside to give him a sporting chance.. because he was knocking the log around and didn't want to come in to fight us. That makes sense....
If a tank spawns in the sewers, do you guys also jump down to help him out, so his timer doesn't run out? I mean.. if he doesnt want to climb the ladder and get killed, it's only fair right?
You're out of your element.
You clearly didnt think before you posted this.
You sarcastically (my feelings! THEY BURN!) comment that maybe you should all leave your campfire and go outside to give the tank a sporting chance.
You maintain that the tank had an unfair advantage using the log... when you're all camped in the corner with autoshotties pointed at the door waiting for the tank to come through.
....
Do you see where this is going or do I need to spell it out?
I may be out of my element, but you're just a whining hypocrite.
The tank didn't have an unfair advantage using the log, but it's a moot point that reseting the control timer with logs/cars is against the game mechanics.
It's not against the game mechanics to hunker down in a room with weapons and ammo.
I was only mentioning that there was camping/meleeing happening because he used that as an excuse to exploit the witch in other areas.. i was just saying both sides camp as survivors... so it's not a justification to exploit the witch.
Get it?
You are correct. The tank is supposed to forced to fight the survivors. But on the same hand, the survivors are supposed to be trying to escape, not making puppies in some closet.
Trying to escape in a finale? They escape by killing the tank to make way for the APC... not running around being chased by a tank/log/haystack. Camping the tank is not an exploit. It might be frustrating and hard to counter in some cases (the weapons closet) but it's not exploiting to sit somewhere so the tank has to enter your area of fire.
It's a bit far-fetched in that it will never happen, but I would like to see weapons break from overzealous use of melee, or different rates for different weapons. Scatter weapons around a little more, which not only would help out the atmosphere, but would be available for replacement.
Congrats! You got an autoshotgun. Better not slap people in the fucking skull too many times lest you bend it up. Sure, it's not really all that realistic, but fuck, those weapons probably have seen better days to begin with.
Another solution to melee would be to correlate a kind of melee mod to health color. You get 7 or 8 swings before shit starts slowing down if you're green, 5 or 6 when you're yellow, and 3 or 4 when you're red.
I don't think they'll take that melee solution (not that I think it needs fixing). There are a few points in the commentary where they mentioned that they changed things, because otherwise the survivors just found themselves in a downward spiral all too often.
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes on in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
xWonderboyx on
XBL - Follow Freeman
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes on in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
I think a lot of people are sick of Campaign, and I'll bet once more maps are released (or even player-made ones) it will pick right back up.
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes in in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
I like to mix up both. That's why I'm so against some of the proposed changes: they would just destroy the campaign play.
Take locking the respawn closets for example. I don't think people realize that not all the respawn closets are just closets. Sometimes they're small offices or bathrooms that, when not occupied, actually have items spawn in them.
There are people (not here, I hope) that don't think Survivors should even be able to stand against walls, because that "takes away from the nature of the game." On Expert, even with all four survivors in a corner, attrition will begin to kick in quite fast. Infected ARE going to get hits in there if you're just meleeing. Quick-switch is an exploit, so I won't even address that. The best method, in terms of preventing damage and moving quickly, is to alternate shooting and melee, but even that you can't keep up undamaged forever.
I consider myself an average player, and I'm barely getting through by the skin of my teeth against coordinated (not necessarily super-skilled individuals) infected teams and Expert campaigns. Thus I think the status quo regarding melee is fine. I also don't think Valve intended to have widely different mechanics for the versus play.
If things go well, I should be playing with you guys by Christmas. A few things though.
-Does the game have gamepad support? I'll be on a laptop and I hate laptop mouses so I want to use a 360 controller.
-Do I need a headset to hear voice chat, and if not, can I turn it off? I'll be at someone else's house and I doubt they'll want to hear random people talking, heh.
-Any tips? I don't want to jump in as a total newbie.
Jast on
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
If things go well, I should be playing with you guys by Christmas. A few things though.
-Does the game have gamepad support? I'll be on a laptop and I hate laptop mouses so I want to use a 360 controller.
-Do I need a headset to hear voice chat, and if not, can I turn it off? I'll be at someone else's house and I doubt they'll want to hear random people talking, heh.
-Any tips? I don't want to jump in as a total newbie.
Sure,
#1 Don't use a gamepad
#2 Always use voice chat.
But seriously: Gamepad support is GO! And.. always have voice chat on. You might as well play single player without it. You don't need a headset, but it's recommended, especially if you have people in the room who don't want to hear it.
You can turn it off, however it's not something I'd recommend.
In your case, I'd highly suggest getting a pair of cheap headphones to play with. For $19 you can get some Sennheiser HD201's, which sound amazingly well and are cheap as you can see.
Satsumomo on
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
I believe a lot of the issues with the tank would be solved if it was more resistant to the auto shotgun. A team of 4 survivors all armed with auto-shotties can kill a rushing tank in 3-4 seconds without the tank getting in a single hit. This makes it so that tanks don't want to go after survivors and survivors don't want to leave a safe spot.
If the tank was resistant enough to shotgun blasts, then people would be forced to leave cover and have a decent fight. I don't think the tank should be able to wipe an entire veteran team single-handedly, but plenty of times on the finale a tank player has to choose between trying to wait for a survivor to get drawn out by the other infected or die quickly and ineffectively by charging.
I also really like the suggestion someone already made about letting the tank swipe hit more than one person. Even if the tank swipe is only 15-20 degree arc right in front of the tank, you could still hit 3-4 people in a closet or corner. The main issue with that would be that the tank could then proceed to kill everybody since nobody would be able to get up in time to shoot or run past the tank. It would certainly keep people from grouping too closely together, though.
Also, how do you stand in a closet and kill a Tank? Unless you have no idea how to play you should be mopping them up in close quarters.
Against Tier 1 weapons, the tank is going to murder a closet full of survivors. Against four auto-shotties and a decent team, a tank might get in a couple swings before keeling over. The other infected can offer little assistance and being blinded doesn't really matter when there's only one spot for a tank to attack from.
As for people standing against walls/in corners, I have no issue with it in the normal course of the game. The survivors must keep moving forward to win, so staying up against a wall will eventually mean death. However, when used on a finale or crescendo point, it neutralizes nearly all infected tactics while the survivors can just sit pretty until escape arrives. Sticking your back to a corner while zombies attack makes perfect sense, but when all four survivors can stand on top of each other and melee endlessly you end up with an anti-zombie Shiva that sucks all the suspense out of the game.
theres already a server variable that makes consecutive melee swings slow down and it blows
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes on in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
Lol, everytime I see your signature all I can think of is:
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes on in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
Lol, everytime I see your signature all I can think of is:
That signature made me laugh for a good two minutes.
Posts
I agree that the Witch is a joke on Normal. I think they should increase the difficulty of her by 1 level on all accounts (Normal's witch more like Advanced's, etc)
Once you learn exactly how a witch works and get over the initial fear of her, she's easy.
Yeah, abusing survivor closets (and even the spots which are just as exploitable but just part of the level) would only need a rudimentary fix. Special locked doors and debris in the way would fix this problem in a jiffy.
For people jamming in corners, well, that does require a more elaborate fix. I think making survivors collide would be a terrible idea (griefers everywhere would rejoice), but making survivor bodies always push against each other if they're on top of each other would help. People could still walk through each other, but people trying to stand in the same spot would constantly get pushed off. Someone mentioned a melee "energy bar" earlier and I think that would really help, too. As long as you aren't meleeing near-constantly, you could melee whenever you need it.
I would like to see survivor melees damage each other as well. Obviously, releasing somebody from a smoker or hunter wouldn't cause damage, but if you're throwing punches around like nobody's business then you should be penalized for it. People crammed in a corner would be a lot less durable if they just blindly throw punches whenever something pops up and they end up smacking each other.
As for the infected moving the witch around, I don't see any problem with simply getting her to move to a better spot. Actually dragging her into a group of survivors is pretty lame, though. The devs don't let humans control her for a reason and getting her to follow you around as infected runs against that intent.
You're right, she's supposed to be an obstacle. However, obstacles aren't supposed to come screaming through a group of survivors while they're trying to defend themselves. The witch is designed to allow smart and/or observant survivors to deal with her quickly and punish them if they're not paying attention. How is dragging her around not running counter to her entire purpose? By that same logic, the infected have every right to block off the elevator with a generator. Sure, it's meant to be used by the tank as a weapon, but blocking people off is just another way of using it against the survivors, right?
Just because the infected or survivors can use something in an unintended way doesn't mean they should use it that way.
So you're bitching about people "exploiting" when you camp in the closet for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to despawn to AI?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Did you drop reading comprehension?
Their team went first. They camped the weapons closet against our tanks. When our team was up, we did the same thing. And "weapons closet" isn't the same as normal closets.. it's simply the corner of the room where the radio is in the BH finale. Against 4 survivors in a corner, a tank is an easy kill. That's how they killed both our tanks. Our second tank actually was controlled by AI up until it was inside the room with him, when it gave me control at a nice 20% health status.
Edit: And I'm with Figgy, it's the principle of the thing. I play VS because it's fun, I rarely care if I win or lose.
Oh, I'll fix that for you then.
There you go, you have now been redeemed on the internets.
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685
What I'm saying is I'm gonna e-mail Gabe now and you guys are gonna see some fucking results. Give it about an hour and then restart your Steams for the update.
I think the issue is that the team making the game was relatively small. It can't be easy to playtest your own game thoroughly when you're just trying to get it done. There's likely a large amount of tunnel vision in place as well since they likely spent 99% of their time playing the game during the development process just making sure things worked right. I doubt any of the devs thought to go into the game and try to break it or had much time to do so.
You really have to wonder where development teams get their playtesters, though. There always seems to be some glaringly obvious issue that most gamers see right away but somehow got skipped over. Personally, I would have a group of playtesters for the normal stuff and another group of assholes whose entire job is to find ways to screw up the game for everyone else. Then they would play against each other and the assholes would be shot once all the exploits are fixed up.
I would dearly love to believe that this would accomplish something, but sadly, I own the 360 version of the game. In other words, the way Left 4 Dead is for me right now is how it shall be in perpetuity. Valve has yet to give me any indication that they give a rat's ass about keeping the 360 versions of their games nice and playable.
Oh oh wait, you're so right my man. When their team spent the entire team in the corner to fight the tanks, we should have done it differently.
We fight the horde in the corner (you know.. the fucking default for that finale) and then when the tank comes and won't come inside, we should have all run outside to give him a sporting chance.. because he was knocking the log around and didn't want to come in to fight us. That makes sense....
If a tank spawns in the sewers, do you guys also jump down to help him out, so his timer doesn't run out? I mean.. if he doesnt want to climb the ladder and get killed, it's only fair right?
You're out of your element.
For the last time, camping the tank is completely legit. The tank is supposed to be forced to attack the survivors.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
Well they recently announced a plethora of fixes for the X360 version of TF2, and they also fixed the glitching in L4D. I'm sure they're trying to makeup for their lack of console support over the years.
I've read several times that if not Gabe, someone actually reads every legitimate email sent to that address, and that many issues have been fixed by a simple email.
jealous?
*edit*
Oh fuck yes, TOTP.
No, Gabe and I are tight, you see.
I forsee a new mythos starting up here so 400 years into the future they will talk of merry old newell whose codemonkeys used to bestow great gifts of software unto the people
People disagree based on some things in the commentary.
The control bar was added, so that once the AID spawned a tank where it wanted the battle to take place, it wouldn't run off and hide in a better spot.
Now, some people take the "better spot" aspect, and say of course the survivors should be able to run backwards to fight the tank where they would prefer it. The tank wouldn't have a control bar if the player wasn't supposed to give chase no matter what, so infected players need to stop being whiny bitches.
Others take the "AID spawned it there for a reason" aspect, and say that the AID wanted the tank encounter there, so the tank should be able to stay there and wait, should the opportunity present itself. Even if the AI took over the tank, the AI tank would wait there for the survivors to show up anyway, thus the Survivors are just trying to take advantage of the system to fight the easier tank rather than the one given to them, so Survivor players need to stop being whiny bitches.
You clearly didnt think before you posted this.
You sarcastically (my feelings! THEY BURN!) comment that maybe you should all leave your campfire and go outside to give the tank a sporting chance.
You maintain that the tank had an unfair advantage using the log... when you're all camped in the corner with autoshotties pointed at the door waiting for the tank to come through.
....
Do you see where this is going or do I need to spell it out?
I may be out of my element, but you're just a whining hypocrite.
You are correct. The tank is supposed to forced to fight the survivors. But on the same hand, the survivors are supposed to be trying to escape, not making puppies in some closet.
In the commentary they say that Valve employees bring in family members to help playtest the game. No doubt the dev team tries to break the game, but you can only look through your own work for so long before you just want to be done with it.
Also, how do you stand in a closet and kill a Tank? Unless you have no idea how to play you should be mopping them up in close quarters.
Congrats! You got an autoshotgun. Better not slap people in the fucking skull too many times lest you bend it up. Sure, it's not really all that realistic, but fuck, those weapons probably have seen better days to begin with. Kind of a tradeoff, too, since I'm of the camp that thinks there should be an incentive to use T1 weapons.
Another solution to melee would be to correlate a kind of melee mod to health color. You get 7 or 8 swings before shit starts slowing down if you're green, 5 or 6 when you're yellow, and 3 or 4 when you're red.
The tank didn't have an unfair advantage using the log, but it's a moot point that reseting the control timer with logs/cars is against the game mechanics.
It's not against the game mechanics to hunker down in a room with weapons and ammo.
I was only mentioning that there was camping/meleeing happening because he used that as an excuse to exploit the witch in other areas.. i was just saying both sides camp as survivors... so it's not a justification to exploit the witch.
Get it?
Trying to escape in a finale? They escape by killing the tank to make way for the APC... not running around being chased by a tank/log/haystack. Camping the tank is not an exploit. It might be frustrating and hard to counter in some cases (the weapons closet) but it's not exploiting to sit somewhere so the tank has to enter your area of fire.
I don't think they'll take that melee solution (not that I think it needs fixing). There are a few points in the commentary where they mentioned that they changed things, because otherwise the survivors just found themselves in a downward spiral all too often.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
XBL - Follow Freeman
I think a lot of people are sick of Campaign, and I'll bet once more maps are released (or even player-made ones) it will pick right back up.
I like to mix up both. That's why I'm so against some of the proposed changes: they would just destroy the campaign play.
Take locking the respawn closets for example. I don't think people realize that not all the respawn closets are just closets. Sometimes they're small offices or bathrooms that, when not occupied, actually have items spawn in them.
There are people (not here, I hope) that don't think Survivors should even be able to stand against walls, because that "takes away from the nature of the game." On Expert, even with all four survivors in a corner, attrition will begin to kick in quite fast. Infected ARE going to get hits in there if you're just meleeing. Quick-switch is an exploit, so I won't even address that. The best method, in terms of preventing damage and moving quickly, is to alternate shooting and melee, but even that you can't keep up undamaged forever.
I consider myself an average player, and I'm barely getting through by the skin of my teeth against coordinated (not necessarily super-skilled individuals) infected teams and Expert campaigns. Thus I think the status quo regarding melee is fine. I also don't think Valve intended to have widely different mechanics for the versus play.
-Does the game have gamepad support? I'll be on a laptop and I hate laptop mouses so I want to use a 360 controller.
-Do I need a headset to hear voice chat, and if not, can I turn it off? I'll be at someone else's house and I doubt they'll want to hear random people talking, heh.
-Any tips? I don't want to jump in as a total newbie.
Sure,
#1 Don't use a gamepad
#2 Always use voice chat.
But seriously: Gamepad support is GO! And.. always have voice chat on. You might as well play single player without it. You don't need a headset, but it's recommended, especially if you have people in the room who don't want to hear it.
In your case, I'd highly suggest getting a pair of cheap headphones to play with. For $19 you can get some Sennheiser HD201's, which sound amazingly well and are cheap as you can see.
If the tank was resistant enough to shotgun blasts, then people would be forced to leave cover and have a decent fight. I don't think the tank should be able to wipe an entire veteran team single-handedly, but plenty of times on the finale a tank player has to choose between trying to wait for a survivor to get drawn out by the other infected or die quickly and ineffectively by charging.
I also really like the suggestion someone already made about letting the tank swipe hit more than one person. Even if the tank swipe is only 15-20 degree arc right in front of the tank, you could still hit 3-4 people in a closet or corner. The main issue with that would be that the tank could then proceed to kill everybody since nobody would be able to get up in time to shoot or run past the tank. It would certainly keep people from grouping too closely together, though.
Against Tier 1 weapons, the tank is going to murder a closet full of survivors. Against four auto-shotties and a decent team, a tank might get in a couple swings before keeling over. The other infected can offer little assistance and being blinded doesn't really matter when there's only one spot for a tank to attack from.
As for people standing against walls/in corners, I have no issue with it in the normal course of the game. The survivors must keep moving forward to win, so staying up against a wall will eventually mean death. However, when used on a finale or crescendo point, it neutralizes nearly all infected tactics while the survivors can just sit pretty until escape arrives. Sticking your back to a corner while zombies attack makes perfect sense, but when all four survivors can stand on top of each other and melee endlessly you end up with an anti-zombie Shiva that sucks all the suspense out of the game.
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
Also, who's playing tonight?
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
I thought you were Spartacus?
do you work with my aunt Gabriel Newell at valve software games?
Lol, everytime I see your signature all I can think of is:
That signature made me laugh for a good two minutes.
What an awesome TOTP.