So the saga of the malfunctioning left 4 dead CD continues!
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
Yes, theoretically it would be balanced if the infected basically had no chance except when a boomer and tank come at once, because hey, both teams get to play the nearly invincible survivors, right? However if you are designing a game that is fun to play for both sides you need to give the infected a few more opportunities to do damage. Every time the survivors move through an area where it's essentially impossible to rack up any damage on them, it's effectively dead game time.
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Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
So the saga of the malfunctioning left 4 dead CD continues!
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
So I blame EA. Curse you EA!
Try this. Log into Steam, under the 'My Games' tab, click the 'Activate a product on Steam' button, and enter your activation code that came with the disc.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
Yes, theoretically it would be balanced if the infected basically had no chance except when a boomer and tank come at once, because hey, both teams get to play the nearly invincible survivors, right? However if you are designing a game that is fun to play for both sides you need to give the infected a few more opportunities to do damage. Every time the survivors move through an area where it's essentially impossible to rack up any damage on them, it's effectively dead game time.
Hiding in closets is something that I think needs to be patched out absolutely. Obviously, you can't do the same with corners. However, I have much less difficulty dealing with survivors in corners since corners are least marginally exposed. If a couple of the survivors melee non-stop, though, they can be just as bad as a closet.
Although it would be interesting to have maps where Valve has patched out all corners. Yay round rooms!
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
Yes, theoretically it would be balanced if the infected basically had no chance except when a boomer and tank come at once, because hey, both teams get to play the nearly invincible survivors, right? However if you are designing a game that is fun to play for both sides you need to give the infected a few more opportunities to do damage. Every time the survivors move through an area where it's essentially impossible to rack up any damage on them, it's effectively dead game time.
What can I say? I have a ridiculous amount of fun playing infected (I think I prefer it in VS games to be honest), and I don't find it impossible to score points.
I mean, OK, I guess I can at least understand if you say that the game isn't fun to play as infected.
I'm just pointing out that it's silly to bring up "hey, you get to play both sides" when discussing survivor vs infected balance.
If we're discussing balance, then yes, that is what I bring up. The game is very fundamentally biased against the infected, but both sides take turns at it.
What you were talking about in the post just above was how the game isn't fun for both sides.
So the saga of the malfunctioning left 4 dead CD continues!
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
So I blame EA. Curse you EA!
Try this. Log into Steam, under the 'My Games' tab, click the 'Activate a product on Steam' button, and enter your activation code that came with the disc.
Already done. It's on my account. But steam only allows me to download it, not install it from the CD. And I'd rather not download it.
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced, and if core options aren't changed, it can't be. The reason for this is very simply the Tank and the Witch, two heavy hitters that the infected aren't in complete control of. The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!". But the same spawns wouldn't work either because infected players would always have the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the Tank and Witch would be.
I'd personally like it if you got to choose where and (and to some degree) when the Tank and Witch would appear. It would be more fair to everyone involved than the other options, which don't work that well.
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced, and if core options aren't changed, it can't be. The reason for this is very simply the Tank and the Witch, two heavy hitters that the infected aren't in complete control of. The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!". But the same spawns wouldn't work either because infected players would always have the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the Tank and Witch would be.
I'd personally like it if you got to choose where and (and to some degree) when the Tank and Witch would appear. It would be more fair to everyone involved than the other options, which don't work that well.
Yes it would be nice if someone on the infected got to play the role of director for zombie spawns and someone on the survivors got to do the same with ammo and stuff with each having a slowly recharging budget
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced.... The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!".
Fair/balanced games frequently have wildly random and uneven events from match to match. You don't need perfect symmetry between offense and defense (or 100% equal experience between team A and to get a dynamic and fair game.
If we're discussing balance, then yes, that is what I bring up. The game is very fundamentally biased against the infected, but both sides take turns at it.
What you were talking about in the post just above was how the game isn't fun for both sides.
I mean "balance" in the only meaningful sense of the word here. Of course the game is going to be "balanced" in the sense of each team has an equal shot at winning (minus spawn variability). However this is only trivially true, and I'm discussing balance as in the challenge of designing a map that gives real opportunity for the infected to deal damage throughout the whole map, and overall gives them a chance to take the survivors down. I don't really like the prospect of having a game balanced so that the survivors are expected to get through every time, and making the contest about health numbers.
If it's not properly balanced in this manner and is impossible to stop the survivors in certain areas it's not going to be fun when the are moving through them. For the infected because they can't do anything and for the survivors because there's no danger.
This is why "but both teams get to play each side" is not relevant here.
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Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
So the saga of the malfunctioning left 4 dead CD continues!
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
So I blame EA. Curse you EA!
Try this. Log into Steam, under the 'My Games' tab, click the 'Activate a product on Steam' button, and enter your activation code that came with the disc.
Already done. It's on my account. But steam only allows me to download it, not install it from the CD. And I'd rather not download it.
Wait, what? Why not? All you've gotta do is let steam sit overnight and you're good to go. Seems like that and the space usage are a small price to pay for, y'know, being able to play the game.
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced.... The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!".
Fair/balanced games frequently have wildly random and uneven events from match to match. You don't need perfect symmetry between offense and defense (or 100% equal experience between team A and to get a dynamic and fair game.
Football, poker, etc. etc.
The field is the same for both teams in football. Its also about strategy, yes. But the starting position(tank, witch) of your team is not decided by by someone who doesn't care winning or fairness, its decided by someone who wants your team to win. And poker is a completely different game.
And I'm not saying things need to be 100% symmetrical, but its pretty stupid that a team can get a tank in the first five minutes of every single match and have the entire game be decided by that very factor. Its just not fun.
So the saga of the malfunctioning left 4 dead CD continues!
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
So I blame EA. Curse you EA!
Try this. Log into Steam, under the 'My Games' tab, click the 'Activate a product on Steam' button, and enter your activation code that came with the disc.
Already done. It's on my account. But steam only allows me to download it, not install it from the CD. And I'd rather not download it.
Backing up your steamapps folder, uninstalling Steam, and then using the L4D disc didn't work?
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced, and if core options aren't changed, it can't be. The reason for this is very simply the Tank and the Witch, two heavy hitters that the infected aren't in complete control of. The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!". But the same spawns wouldn't work either because infected players would always have the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the Tank and Witch would be.
I'd personally like it if you got to choose where and (and to some degree) when the Tank and Witch would appear. It would be more fair to everyone involved than the other options, which don't work that well.
What have I said guys, if you think you have an amazing idea to improve a Valve game they have already playtested it to death for the last 6 months and discarded it. Because they make games, you don't.
Having non random tank/witch spawns gives unfair advantage to the team going second, because they know when the shit is about to go down prior to said shit going down, giving them time to prepare and disadvantaging the first time of the round with surprise and panic.
Letting the teams choose themselves when to spawn the tank/witch is also dumb because not only is it massively open to griefing, but how do you decide who gets to choose, or the mechanics of placing it? Too many variables that the AID is much better at handling.
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The scales SHOULD be stacked in the survivor favour, because infected get infinite respawns, the survivors do not. The infected can see the survivors through walls. Survivors cannot do the same. Infected get to see the health of survivors and thus attack accordingly. Survivors have no such power. Infected can climb surfaces the survivors cant, reach areas of the map inaccessible to the survivors.
And you say the game needs more balance. Jesus fucking christ send your CV to Valve right away, seriously, because I think the response will be funny to hear about.
I think I found the solution to all the bitching about the shit that goes on in Vs.
Play campaign.
Seriously. There is nothing better than a long day at work and sitting down for about an hour and mowing down the undead with my slinging lead. And I don't get pissed at people.
Lol, everytime I see your signature all I can think of is:
That signature made me laugh for a good two minutes.
What an awesome TOTP.
Does anyone else read that signature with the voice of Jabberjaw?
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced, and if core options aren't changed, it can't be. The reason for this is very simply the Tank and the Witch, two heavy hitters that the infected aren't in complete control of. The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!". But the same spawns wouldn't work either because infected players would always have the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the Tank and Witch would be.
I'd personally like it if you got to choose where and (and to some degree) when the Tank and Witch would appear. It would be more fair to everyone involved than the other options, which don't work that well.
What have I said guys, if you think you have an amazing idea to improve a Valve game they have already playtested it to death for the last 6 months and discarded it. Because they make games, you don't.
This is such a stupid thing to say, many games are patched at release or very shortly after, and Valve are definitely not some kind of perfect game factory robot.
I mean, Pyro in TF2 anyone? Completely fucking useless at release, and had been for the last 6 months while they were testing it internally. It only took about a month of players saying 'why is pyro shit?' 'why is pyros range bullshit?' 'why does the pyro's flame graphic completely fail to represent his actual firing?' before Valve said 'hey guys the pyro's flamethrower is shit so we've extended the range, removed the drop off and fixed the graphic!'.
Not to mention that programming etc. is what puts the game together, but making/designing a game requires ideas and vision. Anyone in the world can have ideas and vision, just because they don't know how to code/aren't interested in pursuing games as a career, doesn't mean they can't have the ideas and vision for a good game. And if you think Valve's team of L4D employees are capable of coming up with every idea and concept in the world, your statement is total bullshit.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
I think his point is there are a lot of stupid, not well though out suggestions being made that don't take the full picture into consideration.
I think a lot of people don't realize hunter melee does 10 damage and hits everyone your claw does... so if 4 people are stacked in a corner, one swipe does 40 damage total.
I don't know about all that.
I've only ever been able to deal damage to one person at a time, much akin to the tank punch. Although, I could just be not paying close enough attention; but, I've gone out with the objective to hit two people at once, and it does not seem to work.
Late reply;
Run up to at least two survivors and melee as a hunter, then die. Check your console right away, the last few lines will say something like
Damage Given:
Zoey: 10 in 1 hit
Francis: 10 in 1 hit
I've seen many times a damage printout like this
Damage Given:
Zoey: 20 in 2 hits
Francis: 30 in 3 hits
Bill: 20 in 2 hits
There's no way I got those even nice numbers through multiple pounces.
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
I think his point is there are a lot of stupid, not well though out suggestions being made that don't take the full picture into consideration.
If that was his point then he wouldn't have mind a blanket statement claiming that nobody other than Valve employees could possibly have an idea that would improve their game.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
yeaaaah it's not a balance of difficulty at all
I was on a team with Cango, vs Sirtoons/Mandylore and a few others. Basically, we were the awful awful team and this became apparent quickly even on the first level.
Needless to say, on that first level they got a tank and we didn't. We weren't going particularly fast, and we had already used our medpacks, etc. It just plain wasn't balanced at all
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
I think his point is there are a lot of stupid, not well though out suggestions being made that don't take the full picture into consideration.
If that was his point then he wouldn't have mind a blanket statement claiming that nobody other than Valve employees could possibly have an idea that would improve their game.
People don't always word things correctly. Or maybe he was just being a little overzealous with that statement.
Either way, he made some good points.
I doubt he would suggest that Valve has never patched a game.
Not that it matters, I just think the amount of bitching over versus is kind of funny, since its still a blast.
I hosted a game with a friend, the game wasn't going anywhere because our two pubs kept doing stupid shit, so I quit, which dropped us to the loading screen...
Now, I can't log into my steam account, and neither can he...
Is this just a freak coincidence with steam being down or is this some kinda strange, but known fuckup with a fix? Any help would be awesome.
(edit) steam actually just ate shit at the exact second I hit the exit game button. That's annoying and crazy.
theres already a server variable that makes consecutive melee swings slow down and it blows
Both sides in VS get the same melee attack, and outside of issues with random spawning, the same opportunities to score their points when it's their turn.
The infected are naturally at a disadvantage, that's why they need to work together and play tactically in order to get the most out of them.
As far as melee closets in the finales are concerned, I just think that's more of a level design issue to be honest.
It certainly does blow, but the rate at which it fatigued is what I think was poor.
Versus isn't fair, and it isn't balanced.... The random spawns don't work great because "you guys got the tank on roof, when we only got him by the closet!" and "your witch was in our safe room, while ours was off the fucking map!".
Fair/balanced games frequently have wildly random and uneven events from match to match. You don't need perfect symmetry between offense and defense (or 100% equal experience between team A and to get a dynamic and fair game.
Football, poker, etc. etc.
The field is the same for both teams in football. Its also about strategy, yes. But the starting position(tank, witch) of your team is not decided by by someone who doesn't care winning or fairness, its decided by someone who wants your team to win. And poker is a completely different game.
And I'm not saying things need to be 100% symmetrical, but its pretty stupid that a team can get a tank in the first five minutes of every single match and have the entire game be decided by that very factor. Its just not fun.
Football forces teams to deal with coin flips, wind, field conditions, etc.
No one really makes the argument that the purest game of football only occurs in a dome on astroturf. Sometimes it's sloppy. Sometimes it's unfair. But good teams still win, and I think that's the analogy I'm making with Vs. You don't need to iron out every randomized element to make it competitive.
Poker is skill based as well. The only people who really buy into the idea that the best game is one that is determined *entirely* by the skill of the players are hardcore, no-items Smash bros. gamers.
It's kindof a weird mindset. I get why it's appealing -- the nerd in me can see trying to stamp out all the 'noise' and leave the 'pure game' behind. I just think that L4D's random elements make it a more compelling competitive environment, not less.
I hosted a game with a friend, the game wasn't going anywhere because our two pubs kept doing stupid shit, so I quit, which dropped us to the loading screen...
Now, I can't log into my steam account, and neither can he...
Is this just a freak coincidence with steam being down or is this some kinda strange, but known fuckup with a fix? Any help would be awesome.
(edit) steam actually just ate shit at the exact second I hit the exit game button. That's annoying and crazy.
I do believe Steam is fucking up big time. I can't even get to my community page.
No one really makes the argument that the purest game of football only occurs in a dome on astroturf. Sometimes it's sloppy. Sometimes it's unfair. But good teams still win, and I think that's the analogy I'm making with Vs. You don't need to iron out every randomized element to make it competitive.
Poker is skill based as well. The only people who really buy into the idea that the best game is one that is determined *entirely* by the skill of the players are hardcore, no-items Smash bros. gamers.
It's kindof a weird mindset. I get why it's appealing -- the nerd in me can see trying to stamp out all the 'noise' and leave the 'pure game' behind. I just think that L4D's random elements make it a more compelling competitive environment, not less.
In poker, skill generally wins out because you have potentially dozens of chances to even out the randomness. In Left 4 Dead there are 5. They are completely incomparable. Left 4 Dead's random elements makes it a useless competitive environment, because there are too many variables completely out of the players controls. The better team will usually win, but a large portion of the time one team or another will get completely fucked over. This is why this game will never have a competitive scene.
No one really makes the argument that the purest game of football only occurs in a dome on astroturf. Sometimes it's sloppy. Sometimes it's unfair. But good teams still win, and I think that's the analogy I'm making with Vs. You don't need to iron out every randomized element to make it competitive.
Poker is skill based as well. The only people who really buy into the idea that the best game is one that is determined *entirely* by the skill of the players are hardcore, no-items Smash bros. gamers.
It's kindof a weird mindset. I get why it's appealing -- the nerd in me can see trying to stamp out all the 'noise' and leave the 'pure game' behind. I just think that L4D's random elements make it a more compelling competitive environment, not less.
In poker, skill generally wins out because you have potentially dozens of chances to even out the randomness. In Left 4 Dead there are 5. They are completely incomparable. Left 4 Dead's random elements makes it a useless competitive environment, because there are too many variables completely out of the players controls. The better team will usually win, but a large portion of the time one team or another will get completely fucked over. This is why this game will never have a competitive scene.
That would be just terrible.
If I can't take this game seriously, then it's not worth playing.
Posts
I got my reply from tech support and after doing what he told me to do, it seems that I was wrong. It's not that left 4 dead thinks it's already installed (that was Steam I was trying to install by clicking on this icon in the CD -_-), but just that clicking "Install" on the CD setup screen doesn't do anything.
The computer just seems to work hard for a good minute and that's it. If I'm logged out of Steam, it logs on. That's all. Doesn't install anything.
So I blame EA. Curse you EA!
Yes, theoretically it would be balanced if the infected basically had no chance except when a boomer and tank come at once, because hey, both teams get to play the nearly invincible survivors, right? However if you are designing a game that is fun to play for both sides you need to give the infected a few more opportunities to do damage. Every time the survivors move through an area where it's essentially impossible to rack up any damage on them, it's effectively dead game time.
Try this. Log into Steam, under the 'My Games' tab, click the 'Activate a product on Steam' button, and enter your activation code that came with the disc.
Hiding in closets is something that I think needs to be patched out absolutely. Obviously, you can't do the same with corners. However, I have much less difficulty dealing with survivors in corners since corners are least marginally exposed. If a couple of the survivors melee non-stop, though, they can be just as bad as a closet.
Although it would be interesting to have maps where Valve has patched out all corners. Yay round rooms!
What can I say? I have a ridiculous amount of fun playing infected (I think I prefer it in VS games to be honest), and I don't find it impossible to score points.
I mean, OK, I guess I can at least understand if you say that the game isn't fun to play as infected.
That's just, like, your opinion man.
If we're discussing balance, then yes, that is what I bring up. The game is very fundamentally biased against the infected, but both sides take turns at it.
What you were talking about in the post just above was how the game isn't fun for both sides.
No flamethrower yet.
That was....random?
Or is there a new update?
Already done. It's on my account. But steam only allows me to download it, not install it from the CD. And I'd rather not download it.
I'd personally like it if you got to choose where and (and to some degree) when the Tank and Witch would appear. It would be more fair to everyone involved than the other options, which don't work that well.
Yes it would be nice if someone on the infected got to play the role of director for zombie spawns and someone on the survivors got to do the same with ammo and stuff with each having a slowly recharging budget
Fair/balanced games frequently have wildly random and uneven events from match to match. You don't need perfect symmetry between offense and defense (or 100% equal experience between team A and
Football, poker, etc. etc.
I mean "balance" in the only meaningful sense of the word here. Of course the game is going to be "balanced" in the sense of each team has an equal shot at winning (minus spawn variability). However this is only trivially true, and I'm discussing balance as in the challenge of designing a map that gives real opportunity for the infected to deal damage throughout the whole map, and overall gives them a chance to take the survivors down. I don't really like the prospect of having a game balanced so that the survivors are expected to get through every time, and making the contest about health numbers.
If it's not properly balanced in this manner and is impossible to stop the survivors in certain areas it's not going to be fun when the are moving through them. For the infected because they can't do anything and for the survivors because there's no danger.
This is why "but both teams get to play each side" is not relevant here.
Wait, what? Why not? All you've gotta do is let steam sit overnight and you're good to go. Seems like that and the space usage are a small price to pay for, y'know, being able to play the game.
The field is the same for both teams in football. Its also about strategy, yes. But the starting position(tank, witch) of your team is not decided by by someone who doesn't care winning or fairness, its decided by someone who wants your team to win. And poker is a completely different game.
And I'm not saying things need to be 100% symmetrical, but its pretty stupid that a team can get a tank in the first five minutes of every single match and have the entire game be decided by that very factor. Its just not fun.
Before the game came out there was talks of a flamethrower "not long after release".
Backing up your steamapps folder, uninstalling Steam, and then using the L4D disc didn't work?
What have I said guys, if you think you have an amazing idea to improve a Valve game they have already playtested it to death for the last 6 months and discarded it. Because they make games, you don't.
Having non random tank/witch spawns gives unfair advantage to the team going second, because they know when the shit is about to go down prior to said shit going down, giving them time to prepare and disadvantaging the first time of the round with surprise and panic.
Letting the teams choose themselves when to spawn the tank/witch is also dumb because not only is it massively open to griefing, but how do you decide who gets to choose, or the mechanics of placing it? Too many variables that the AID is much better at handling.
Speaking of the AID, it balances the difficulty of the map and thus changes the spawns of the tank. Why did we have the tank spawn right in the middle instead of at the end like the other team? Maybe because we had far more swarms, or got the power weapons earlier, or a whole number of other variables your tiny little human mind can't begin to comprehend.
The scales SHOULD be stacked in the survivor favour, because infected get infinite respawns, the survivors do not. The infected can see the survivors through walls. Survivors cannot do the same. Infected get to see the health of survivors and thus attack accordingly. Survivors have no such power. Infected can climb surfaces the survivors cant, reach areas of the map inaccessible to the survivors.
And you say the game needs more balance. Jesus fucking christ send your CV to Valve right away, seriously, because I think the response will be funny to hear about.
Does anyone else read that signature with the voice of Jabberjaw?
Valve time, my friend. Valve time.
This is such a stupid thing to say, many games are patched at release or very shortly after, and Valve are definitely not some kind of perfect game factory robot.
I mean, Pyro in TF2 anyone? Completely fucking useless at release, and had been for the last 6 months while they were testing it internally. It only took about a month of players saying 'why is pyro shit?' 'why is pyros range bullshit?' 'why does the pyro's flame graphic completely fail to represent his actual firing?' before Valve said 'hey guys the pyro's flamethrower is shit so we've extended the range, removed the drop off and fixed the graphic!'.
Not to mention that programming etc. is what puts the game together, but making/designing a game requires ideas and vision. Anyone in the world can have ideas and vision, just because they don't know how to code/aren't interested in pursuing games as a career, doesn't mean they can't have the ideas and vision for a good game. And if you think Valve's team of L4D employees are capable of coming up with every idea and concept in the world, your statement is total bullshit.
The AID is so far from being fair to both teams its ludicrous. Your blind defense of Valve is likewise so. They aren't the all-seeing all-playtesting gods that you make them out to be. Valve has a good record of patching things that don't work, and I expect L4D to be no different.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
I think his point is there are a lot of stupid, not well though out suggestions being made that don't take the full picture into consideration.
Late reply;
Run up to at least two survivors and melee as a hunter, then die. Check your console right away, the last few lines will say something like
Damage Given:
Zoey: 10 in 1 hit
Francis: 10 in 1 hit
I've seen many times a damage printout like this
Damage Given:
Zoey: 20 in 2 hits
Francis: 30 in 3 hits
Bill: 20 in 2 hits
There's no way I got those even nice numbers through multiple pounces.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
If that was his point then he wouldn't have mind a blanket statement claiming that nobody other than Valve employees could possibly have an idea that would improve their game.
yeaaaah it's not a balance of difficulty at all
I was on a team with Cango, vs Sirtoons/Mandylore and a few others. Basically, we were the awful awful team and this became apparent quickly even on the first level.
Needless to say, on that first level they got a tank and we didn't. We weren't going particularly fast, and we had already used our medpacks, etc. It just plain wasn't balanced at all
People don't always word things correctly. Or maybe he was just being a little overzealous with that statement.
Either way, he made some good points.
I doubt he would suggest that Valve has never patched a game.
Not that it matters, I just think the amount of bitching over versus is kind of funny, since its still a blast.
I hosted a game with a friend, the game wasn't going anywhere because our two pubs kept doing stupid shit, so I quit, which dropped us to the loading screen...
Now, I can't log into my steam account, and neither can he...
Is this just a freak coincidence with steam being down or is this some kinda strange, but known fuckup with a fix? Any help would be awesome.
(edit) steam actually just ate shit at the exact second I hit the exit game button. That's annoying and crazy.
DO NOT FISTPOUND
Yeah, I still enjoy versus. A lot, actually.
But I'm going to call anybody who claims it's balanced a fucking idiot. It isn't. Period.
It certainly does blow, but the rate at which it fatigued is what I think was poor.
Football forces teams to deal with coin flips, wind, field conditions, etc.
No one really makes the argument that the purest game of football only occurs in a dome on astroturf. Sometimes it's sloppy. Sometimes it's unfair. But good teams still win, and I think that's the analogy I'm making with Vs. You don't need to iron out every randomized element to make it competitive.
Poker is skill based as well. The only people who really buy into the idea that the best game is one that is determined *entirely* by the skill of the players are hardcore, no-items Smash bros. gamers.
It's kindof a weird mindset. I get why it's appealing -- the nerd in me can see trying to stamp out all the 'noise' and leave the 'pure game' behind. I just think that L4D's random elements make it a more compelling competitive environment, not less.
I do believe Steam is fucking up big time. I can't even get to my community page.
I think Steam servers are down.
It seems I, too, am a robot.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
In poker, skill generally wins out because you have potentially dozens of chances to even out the randomness. In Left 4 Dead there are 5. They are completely incomparable. Left 4 Dead's random elements makes it a useless competitive environment, because there are too many variables completely out of the players controls. The better team will usually win, but a large portion of the time one team or another will get completely fucked over. This is why this game will never have a competitive scene.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
If I can't take this game seriously, then it's not worth playing.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing