Is killing Arthas with 40 extremely well trained and equipped heroes in WoW really worse than killing him with 40 generic Footmen in Warcraft 4?
I understand the point you're getting at, but I think that Blizz could've waited a bit before making Arthas available in a raid. Like I said above, this is just the 2nd expansion pack. Presumably, there will be a couple more. Why not wait to release him then? I mean, he is the big badguy of the world, and the most recognizable character. Giving him up to the masses now just seems like a waste.
Blizzard really needs to innovate instead of do the same old stuff again.
Really.
Why?
I think a better question would be, "How?"
Honestly, straying from the formula of fixed level cap, fixed class list, fixed ability lists and questing/killing just doesn't work out very well for longterm.
The only way you can have any semblance of a level playing field is to lock classes/abilities/levels/races to the design specifications.
Think how much people bitch about the imbalances in WoW (gear, mostly). Imagine if you could mix and match class features and abilities, on any race, or if you could just grind your balls off for ever increasing levels on top of the gear gap.
From what I've read all of the "leaked" information really doesn't please me. Then again my interest for Warcraft has dropped drastically within the last month due to a lack of action from my guild.
I don't know if you guys have brought up discussion on Death Knights yet, but I personally am fairly skeptical right now.
Death-Knights are, according to one leak, going to be an unlockable class that once you unlock will -start at a high level-. Now uh, if they had made an unlockable class that started at level 1, I wouldn't think the unlocking would be too hard -- hit level 75 or something. But if the unlocked character starts at 58 or something, oh ^%# could they make the unlocking a pain. Like, three Netherwing Drake reps to grind kind of pain.
Not to mention, if a person has to work that hard to unlock a Death Knight, will they be inherently OP? Because based on what I've read up on Death Knights, they're an offensive/debuffing melee hybrid, one that should theoretically be wearing mail. From what I've read in the leak, they think Death Knight will be a tank/dps'er. I'm highly skeptical of this. If they're OP, then yeah, they can do both. If they're not OP, then I think their tanking ability will be that of a paladin's or worse, shaman? All in all, highly skeptical.
I really want to play a Death Knight, but if it involves months of daily questing or 25 man instancing (or hell, even 5 man instancing more than once will be a problem on low pop servers), then there'll be a problem.
True, but I can't see Blizz putting him in a raid unless he can be defeated, especially as the babelfish description highlights that the end of the raid is a "showdown with Arthas himself!" I'm sure they'll incorporate some mechanic that allows players to defeat raid boss Arthas (giving them access to phat lewts) while making sure that the character of Arthas is not destroyed (keeping him alive for Warcraft 4, perhaps). Something inane like the body being killed but his soul living on in the Crown.
You guys realize that there won't be a Warcraft 4 for at least like 5 years, right? I wouldn't be surprised if they just place it 1000 years in the future with all new characters or something.
You guys realize that there won't be a Warcraft 4 for at least like 5 years, right? I wouldn't be surprised if they just place it 1000 years in the future with all new characters or something.
I really hope we don't end up killing Arthas. Although he isn't one of the baddest dudes on Azeroth, he is using the Scourge to fight the Burning Legion, and with Illidan dead, he's pretty much won that battle. If we do encounter him, I have a feeling that he'll escape at the last moment, or even better, reveal that he hasn't been on Azeroth for a good long while, but rather spent the last 6 years opening portals and conquering other worlds so as to better fight against Kil'jaeden.
B: Complaining about WoWs graphics is one step below complaining about the PS3s price. It has been done to death year in year out and a fraction of people agree/care. WoW has a good art style, runs well on any computer and visually is more impressive than a lot of more graphically based games, like Guild Wars.
Wait. What?
Scarab, I think that WoW's graphics are bad sure, but they fit the mood of the game. (In fact, it probably wouldn't be as fun with updated graphics) But saying they're more impressive than Guild Wars is just being blind.
I'm inclined to agree with the guild wars comment. Everything i've seen of guild wars is.... uninspired. WoW feels whimsical and fun to me, but that boils down to personal opinion really.
Right. But it's entirely different if you play the game on high settings. Screenshots don't do the game any justice. (I can't believe I'm defending Guild Wars)
Actually, I remember reading in the Games for Windows issue "World of Warcraft Secrets" that they don't plan on making another Warcraft RTS and will just further the storyline in WoW. They said something along those lines.
Maybe you have a different definition of what a visually impressive game is. As I said, I hate the more polys more textures higher res crap. WoW has a brilliant art style and impressive animations and colours and character models including gear etc. Guild Wars is ridiculously bland at times and kinda generic the rest of the time. I know, Ive played it. Nightfall kinda was a bit different, and Factions had a great main city like hive thing that was cool, but the characters the armor the weapons the environments and most of the rest of the game was done almost the same in lineage, in eq and in a bunch of other MMOs. The only difference is GW is slightly higher res and has more polys. WoW looks like nothing else out there, period. It is very distinctive and visually appealing in all aspects of its graphics.
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
I'm in no means shallow. I don't give two shits about graphics.
But how in the world is WoW visually impressive? The bland, repetitive textures? The jagged edges around buildings?
The only awe-inspiring moment I had was in the mountains. But that had to do with the light.
The concept art, however, is infinitely better than Guild Wars'.
Maybe it's because I played the game for so long, that the thought of the game just bores me to tears.
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RoshinMy backlog can be seen from spaceSwedenRegistered Userregular
edited August 2007
WoW has actual art direction and style, which is something that most MMOG's lack. I don't think GW is one of them, though. The character art in GW is forgettable, I agree, but the environments are beautiful.
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
I'm in no means shallow. I don't give two shits about graphics.
But how in the world is WoW visually impressive? The bland, repetitive textures? The jagged edges around buildings?
The only awe-inspiring moment I had was in the mountains. But that had to do with the light.
The concept art, however, is infinitely better than Guild Wars'.
Maybe it's because I played the game for so long, that the thought of the game just bores me to tears.
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
I'm in no means shallow. I don't give two shits about graphics.
But how in the world is WoW visually impressive? The bland, repetitive textures? The jagged edges around buildings?
The only awe-inspiring moment I had was in the mountains. But that had to do with the light.
The concept art, however, is infinitely better than Guild Wars'.
Maybe it's because I played the game for so long, that the thought of the game just bores me to tears.
WoW's art direction and style more than compensate for its low poly count. IMHO it looks better than the bland high-poly crap of a game like EQ2. They could improve it, but they would be sacrificing the advantage of system compatibility and there's no reason for them to do that for the minority that need flashy graphics. Even for people with good computers, it's still worthwhile that the game doesn't chug in crowded areas.
I wish they would beef up the spell effects a little though. It sucks that my Mage's fireball looks exactly the same at level 70 as it does at level 1.
One thing regarding art style that I thought WoW did well was managing the changes in setting and mood. After toiling away in dark and depressing Terokkar Forest for several levels, heading into Nagrand (with its lush greenery and huge open expanses) for the first time was pretty jaw dropping for me.
Just by itself, it's not all that special. It's a bit like the Barrens actually. But setting that up to come after Terokkar was just brilliant.
There are other examples where the WoW designers did a pretty good job of managing the art style and mood, but that's probably the best and most obvious one.
Is killing Arthas with 40 extremely well trained and equipped heroes in WoW really worse than killing him with 40 generic Footmen in Warcraft 4?
I understand the point you're getting at, but I think that Blizz could've waited a bit before making Arthas available in a raid. Like I said above, this is just the 2nd expansion pack. Presumably, there will be a couple more. Why not wait to release him then? I mean, he is the big badguy of the world, and the most recognizable character. Giving him up to the masses now just seems like a waste.
Maybe.
My thinking is Blizz wants to move WC past arthas, and this is a good chance to do so. WHEN (not if) they release WC4, do you really want another game about mafurion, tyrande, arthas? Or would you like to move on deeper into the story of azeroth. Maybe have an old god return; maybe have Sargeras return from hiding (who actually thinks he's dead?), etc. By putting Arthas in WoW now, they have a few more expansions to expand the story to where they want to take it with WC4, and that probably isn't Arthas. Or maybe it is Arthas and we'll see some event in the Northrend expansion (assuming this is legit) that evolves arthas or his intentions further than we know now. I mean, the ending of WC3 TFT was pretty ambiguious regarding The Lich Kings ultimate goals and intentions. I mean yeah sure, take over the world blah blah, but knowing there's multiple worlds, multiple races etc, the lich king cant have sights limited only to azeroth.
Also, the numerious inactive portals in Outlands and all the Draenei/Naruu lore about other worlds, other wars, etc, leads me to believe Blizz wants to kinda "zoom out" the story of WC and encompass a bigger picture we don't see yet.
Anyway, I am a WC lore whore, but I've gotten over the idea players can kill the big baddies in WoW. Like joth said. How is it any different than killing him with a bunch of footmen? The only difference is it makes you feel warm and fuzzy because it was you who did it and not a bunch of random scrubs. But LORE wise, i'm sure the expansion will have an overarching story involving a big "war" and invasion, and everyone working together to defeat arthas, just like WC4 would/could, the only difference is instead of a single player playing a scripted campaign, it's 10-25 players doing the same thing in a different way.
Either way, we'll see. The wording and the idea of one single hero class is enough to make me doubt this info highly. The FAQ is not written in usual blizzard style. Northrend WILL be an expansion, and it very well could be this expansion, but i wont hold my breath about this particular "leak".
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
I'm in no means shallow. I don't give two shits about graphics.
But how in the world is WoW visually impressive? The bland, repetitive textures? The jagged edges around buildings?
The only awe-inspiring moment I had was in the mountains. But that had to do with the light.
The concept art, however, is infinitely better than Guild Wars'.
Maybe it's because I played the game for so long, that the thought of the game just bores me to tears.
lol try again
lol that's all you've got?
But seriously. Arguing with a WoW player is, in fact, useless. They're blinded by the game anyway.
I don't play anymore but I always liked the WoW graphics. To be honest outside of the fps genre I don't like realistic graphics. That being said, I wouldn't mind if they upgraded the graphics but I would prefer if they didn't change the current art direction.
Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
Why can't it have both? Compared to the expansion zones, the old world graphics are very dated. They could easily maintain the same style and still improve the graphics.
I'd like them to give the original 8 races a quick once over to bring them up to the same standard as the Blood Elves and Dranei, but otherwise the graphics are fine.
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I would like to see something in the form of another Undead Invasion except more permanent. Add a few quests here and there in the lower level areas, perhaps repeatable or daily quests where you get a good amount of exp instead of gold.
I'd also love for Blizz to go back to Azeroth and Kalimdor at some point and add in things they didn't get around to. Places like Uldum, the Greymane Wall, or a few quests involving the dead Old God in Darkshore or the Old Gods in general though it would make more sense for them to go with the Emerald Dream expansion, if they ever do one. Blizz did a lot of work on ED only for it to be scraped because they wanted to have it play a bigger part. There's a Great Tree in Crystalsong Field, so perhaps that will lead up to entering ED. According to a Blizzcon '05 panel discussion, Nazjatar as well as Northrend were "something they were dedicated to doing as a future expansion," so it would be interesting to see if they introduce more info about what Queen Azshara's been up to.
On a similar note, as much as I like surprises, I think it would be infinitely more awesome if Blizz added NPCs and quests in patches that led up to expansions and other additions, to create the feeling of an evolving and interactive world instead of "Oh hey look Dungeon Y just opened up lets go kill Evil Baddie X." Or even do it for Northrend, with more and more NPCs mentioning the growing strength of the Scourge, or more activity in the northern seas.
I guess what I'm really asking for is forethought on Blizzard's part.
WoW has actual art direction and style, which is something that most MMOG's lack. I don't think GW is one of them, though. The character art in GW is forgettable, I agree, but the environments are beautiful.
GW had one of the most stylistically impressive moments I've seen in any game. I was wandering through the desert looking for a quest npc when I saw a statue of a warrior looming in the distance. I headed towards it for a bit, looked away from it to fight some ogres, and when I looked back it was missing. When I eventually reached the spot where I had seen it, it was lying in ruins, and I had to actually climb up it to finish my quest.
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Well, You're kind of a pussy when you need 40 people to kill a single dude.
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You don't understand.
Those 40 generic footmen?
They are the equivilent of a level 70 whatever in World of Warcraft.
In otherwords, all that time, all that raiding, all that epic purples?
Is the equivilent of a guy with a shirt and a pike.
I understand the point you're getting at, but I think that Blizz could've waited a bit before making Arthas available in a raid. Like I said above, this is just the 2nd expansion pack. Presumably, there will be a couple more. Why not wait to release him then? I mean, he is the big badguy of the world, and the most recognizable character. Giving him up to the masses now just seems like a waste.
I think a better question would be, "How?"
Honestly, straying from the formula of fixed level cap, fixed class list, fixed ability lists and questing/killing just doesn't work out very well for longterm.
The only way you can have any semblance of a level playing field is to lock classes/abilities/levels/races to the design specifications.
Think how much people bitch about the imbalances in WoW (gear, mostly). Imagine if you could mix and match class features and abilities, on any race, or if you could just grind your balls off for ever increasing levels on top of the gear gap.
Death-Knights are, according to one leak, going to be an unlockable class that once you unlock will -start at a high level-. Now uh, if they had made an unlockable class that started at level 1, I wouldn't think the unlocking would be too hard -- hit level 75 or something. But if the unlocked character starts at 58 or something, oh ^%# could they make the unlocking a pain. Like, three Netherwing Drake reps to grind kind of pain.
Not to mention, if a person has to work that hard to unlock a Death Knight, will they be inherently OP? Because based on what I've read up on Death Knights, they're an offensive/debuffing melee hybrid, one that should theoretically be wearing mail. From what I've read in the leak, they think Death Knight will be a tank/dps'er. I'm highly skeptical of this. If they're OP, then yeah, they can do both. If they're not OP, then I think their tanking ability will be that of a paladin's or worse, shaman? All in all, highly skeptical.
I really want to play a Death Knight, but if it involves months of daily questing or 25 man instancing (or hell, even 5 man instancing more than once will be a problem on low pop servers), then there'll be a problem.
Thank you.
True, but I can't see Blizz putting him in a raid unless he can be defeated, especially as the babelfish description highlights that the end of the raid is a "showdown with Arthas himself!" I'm sure they'll incorporate some mechanic that allows players to defeat raid boss Arthas (giving them access to phat lewts) while making sure that the character of Arthas is not destroyed (keeping him alive for Warcraft 4, perhaps). Something inane like the body being killed but his soul living on in the Crown.
EDIT: I didn't mean to quote myself. I meant to edit my post....
i remember them saying illidan wouldn't be killed any time soon early into wow's life, i don't remember a straight up nope, ain't gonna happen.
also, illidan is a goddamn chump fuck when compared to arthas.
Except he isnt.
And they said the same thing about Illidan. These dudes are powerful, sure, but they arent exactly the 'end boss' of the Warcraft universe.
Plus, you know, what are we supposed to do with WoW? Be happy just kiling inconsequential bad guys with no history and no impact on the world?
Why is it wrong to advance the Warcraft lore with WoW? Warcraft 4 is not going to arrive for a long time guys.
Warcraft 4: Streets of Stormwind.
Correction.
He is powerful. Currently, the most powerful being on Azaroth.
But, Jaina Proudmoore is a close second when she's tapping into her Mary Sue.
And Sargeras would wipe his ass with him.
Right. But it's entirely different if you play the game on high settings. Screenshots don't do the game any justice. (I can't believe I'm defending Guild Wars)
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Maybe Im just not as shallow as some people. I prefer good art over good tech and WoW has that. In that respect WoW is more visually impressive than Guild Wars.
I'm in no means shallow. I don't give two shits about graphics.
But how in the world is WoW visually impressive? The bland, repetitive textures? The jagged edges around buildings?
The only awe-inspiring moment I had was in the mountains. But that had to do with the light.
The concept art, however, is infinitely better than Guild Wars'.
Maybe it's because I played the game for so long, that the thought of the game just bores me to tears.
lol try again
WoW's art direction and style more than compensate for its low poly count. IMHO it looks better than the bland high-poly crap of a game like EQ2. They could improve it, but they would be sacrificing the advantage of system compatibility and there's no reason for them to do that for the minority that need flashy graphics. Even for people with good computers, it's still worthwhile that the game doesn't chug in crowded areas.
I wish they would beef up the spell effects a little though. It sucks that my Mage's fireball looks exactly the same at level 70 as it does at level 1.
Just by itself, it's not all that special. It's a bit like the Barrens actually. But setting that up to come after Terokkar was just brilliant.
There are other examples where the WoW designers did a pretty good job of managing the art style and mood, but that's probably the best and most obvious one.
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Maybe.
My thinking is Blizz wants to move WC past arthas, and this is a good chance to do so. WHEN (not if) they release WC4, do you really want another game about mafurion, tyrande, arthas? Or would you like to move on deeper into the story of azeroth. Maybe have an old god return; maybe have Sargeras return from hiding (who actually thinks he's dead?), etc. By putting Arthas in WoW now, they have a few more expansions to expand the story to where they want to take it with WC4, and that probably isn't Arthas. Or maybe it is Arthas and we'll see some event in the Northrend expansion (assuming this is legit) that evolves arthas or his intentions further than we know now. I mean, the ending of WC3 TFT was pretty ambiguious regarding The Lich Kings ultimate goals and intentions. I mean yeah sure, take over the world blah blah, but knowing there's multiple worlds, multiple races etc, the lich king cant have sights limited only to azeroth.
Also, the numerious inactive portals in Outlands and all the Draenei/Naruu lore about other worlds, other wars, etc, leads me to believe Blizz wants to kinda "zoom out" the story of WC and encompass a bigger picture we don't see yet.
Anyway, I am a WC lore whore, but I've gotten over the idea players can kill the big baddies in WoW. Like joth said. How is it any different than killing him with a bunch of footmen? The only difference is it makes you feel warm and fuzzy because it was you who did it and not a bunch of random scrubs. But LORE wise, i'm sure the expansion will have an overarching story involving a big "war" and invasion, and everyone working together to defeat arthas, just like WC4 would/could, the only difference is instead of a single player playing a scripted campaign, it's 10-25 players doing the same thing in a different way.
Either way, we'll see. The wording and the idea of one single hero class is enough to make me doubt this info highly. The FAQ is not written in usual blizzard style. Northrend WILL be an expansion, and it very well could be this expansion, but i wont hold my breath about this particular "leak".
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lol that's all you've got?
But seriously. Arguing with a WoW player is, in fact, useless. They're blinded by the game anyway.
Its hard to argue with someone with poor taste. Enjoy your bloom.
Wait, what? Proudmoore is as strong as Arthas? How so? Did I miss some lore somewhere where she goes all Super Saijin?
I'd also love for Blizz to go back to Azeroth and Kalimdor at some point and add in things they didn't get around to. Places like Uldum, the Greymane Wall, or a few quests involving the dead Old God in Darkshore or the Old Gods in general though it would make more sense for them to go with the Emerald Dream expansion, if they ever do one. Blizz did a lot of work on ED only for it to be scraped because they wanted to have it play a bigger part. There's a Great Tree in Crystalsong Field, so perhaps that will lead up to entering ED. According to a Blizzcon '05 panel discussion, Nazjatar as well as Northrend were "something they were dedicated to doing as a future expansion," so it would be interesting to see if they introduce more info about what Queen Azshara's been up to.
On a similar note, as much as I like surprises, I think it would be infinitely more awesome if Blizz added NPCs and quests in patches that led up to expansions and other additions, to create the feeling of an evolving and interactive world instead of "Oh hey look Dungeon Y just opened up lets go kill Evil Baddie X." Or even do it for Northrend, with more and more NPCs mentioning the growing strength of the Scourge, or more activity in the northern seas.
I guess what I'm really asking for is forethought on Blizzard's part.
GW had one of the most stylistically impressive moments I've seen in any game. I was wandering through the desert looking for a quest npc when I saw a statue of a warrior looming in the distance. I headed towards it for a bit, looked away from it to fight some ogres, and when I looked back it was missing. When I eventually reached the spot where I had seen it, it was lying in ruins, and I had to actually climb up it to finish my quest.
How many other games have crazy mirage statues?