The Egypt thing has gone from large popular protests to urban melee's, with protestors being broken up and chased through the streets. Traction might be a problem as the brother hood of Islam has not endorsed it and nearly gone with the sentiment that they won't stop their 'young' people joining in. This indicates in my mind that the brother hood does not have much hope for success of toppling Mubarak through street protests. If the widespred arrests and quite violent control measures the Egyption police have enacted are successful at terrifying the population to stop, this shows over.
It's disappointing, but logical that eygpt's internal security apparatus have lernt from other middle east uprisings and have apparently cut Internet, mobile phone coverage and twitter. Unlike the Tunisian's security forces Mubarak's boys seem much more organized and more willing to clamp down on their own people, push come to shove.
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
If the US stopped treating Israel like an over protecting parent protects a spoiled kid, things would change in a big way.
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
If the US stopped treating Israel like an over protecting parent protects a spoiled kid, things would change in a big way.
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
Wait, the majority of the EU are now "theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records"?
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
If the US stopped treating Israel like an over protecting parent protects a spoiled kid, things would change in a big way.
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
ah yes the fabulously bankrupt argument: He may be a bastard, but he is our bastard.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
If the US stopped treating Israel like an over protecting parent protects a spoiled kid, things would change in a big way.
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
Wait, the majority of the EU are now "theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records"?
Not to mention the UN. Pretty much everyone except the US is one of Israels detractors.
Casual on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
I'll amend that to "most vocal detractors" for you pedants out there.
If the US stopped treating Israel like an over protecting parent protects a spoiled kid, things would change in a big way.
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
Doesn't stop U.S. from listening to the other murderous toothless hillbilly who murders people and steals their land to boot, though. Listening and paying money for them.
A few news-sources are still reporting that Mubarak's son, Gamal, fled to London, but I would have thought that we would have had further confirmation on this point by now.
I'll amend that to "most vocal detractors" for you pedants out there.
Well as stated above there is a reason it's only the "death to the zionists" crowd that publicly admit to the sun not shining out of Israels ass.
This is because every time anyone reasonable tries to say building settlements in land that doesn't belong to them and mass murdering the people who already happened to live there is kind of a dick move, the US steps in and vetos it faster than a free peadophile for every preschool program.
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
In that same area
*waves a hand over the middle of an invisible map*
Yeah, I mean look how eastern Algeria is, sitting right on the Prime Meridian and all. Why, I'm only a few miles from Greenwich, I must be in the Middle East myself. Yesterday I even met an Arab!
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
That's an awfully bold claim to make. I object to the use of the label, I don't think anything good can come out of identifying every country bordering Europe as "Wogland".
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
That's a very bold claim to make. I object to the label, I don't think anything good can come out of identifying every country bordering Europe as "Wogland".
Regarding the pamphlets: I wouldn't say they are nearly as professional, but they are not made by some guy who fired up Word and went crazy if you get what I'm saying.
Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. In 2009, Israel received $2.55 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense.[48] All but 26% of this military aid is for the purchase of military hardware from American companies only.
$2.5 billion is by no means an insignificant amount, but with the country's budget being about $16 billion without it and having plenty of its own state-of-the-art technology (the one area that is actually lacking is the navy, which will be screwed since Israel does not have its own warships) withdrawing it will not have an overt effect.
US support keeping the IDF afloat is somewhat of a myth. The US's actual contribution is, as you have said, defending Israel in the international stage. Withdrawing that will actually hurt.
RE security fence&friends: As you can see on the previous page I am far from being a fan of my government. Wait, let me put it in other words: I despise my government. It has done and is still doing terrible terrible things. Even then, I feel it is somewhat unfair to dub its actions as you do. Israel's government is a horrid enough of an organization to need to be put down even without blowing its crimes out of proportions - kicking people out of their land and then walling it in and calling them criminals (and shooting them as such) when they try to get back is not a deed that needs flowery WW2 comparisons to sound horrible.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
That's an awfully bold claim to make.
Similar isn't identical. They have been on various parts of history united under same empires, speak the same language, have similar religious traditions, consider themselves belonging into the same ethnic group and are part of the same regional organization.
RE security fence&friends: As you can see on the previous page I am far from being a fan of my government. Wait, let me put it in other words: I despise my government. It has done and is still doing terrible terrible things. Even then, I feel it is somewhat unfair to dub its actions as you do. Israel's government is a horrid enough of an organization to need to be put down even without blowing its crimes out of proportions - kicking people out of their land and then walling it in and calling them criminals (and shooting them as such) when they try to get back is not a deed that needs flowery WW2 comparisons to sound horrible.
If that was regarding my comment then I apologise. Calling people Nazis isn't really conductive to debate, and to be honest I can't say I'm with the Palestinians either.
I think that's the thing about the conflict I hate the most. Both sides use past wrongs against them as an excuse for their current atrocities.
I can't imagine what it's like to live in Israel and have a fear of a guy with a bomb stepping into the bus you're going to work in, but the way the Palestinians are being suppressed doesn't really seem to be helping the situation.
It's hard to see a solution since the moderate Israeli population is a shrinking part of the population, and the Palestinians have been growing up thinking of themselves as the victims for the last three generations. Maybe the terrible truth is that the hard-liners in Israel are right in constricting and thinning out the opposition before some final conflict in 5-10-15 years.
Living in Israel, do you see any hope fore the future?
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
That's an awfully bold claim to make.
Similar isn't identical. They have been on various parts of history united under same empires, speak the same language, have similar religious traditions, consider themselves belonging into the same ethnic group and are part of the same regional organization.
Don't see anything bold there, sorry.
The same could be said of Europe. I have a feeling that as a Fin you have some strong opinions about working closely with Russia.
Also some of those countries are so far apart it would be like saying Norway and Greece should be lumped together because they are both European and Christian.
Since when have Algeria and Tunisia been part of the Middle East? What, because they're Islamic?
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
That's an awfully bold claim to make.
Similar isn't identical. They have been on various parts of history united under same empires, speak the same language, have similar religious traditions, consider themselves belonging into the same ethnic group and are part of the same regional organization.
Don't see anything bold there, sorry.
The same could be said of Europe. I have a feeling that as a Fin you have some strong opinions about working closely with Russia.
Also some of those countries are so far apart it would be like saying Norway and Greece should be lumped together because they are both European and Christian.
Or the US and South Africa. Same empire, same language, same religion, same ethnic groups, right?
Also some of those countries are so far apart it would be like saying Norway and Greece should be lumped together because they are both European and Christian.
Are we talking about Geography?
And Norway and Greece do not share any historical, linguistic, ethnic or cultural traditions (or really religious traditions, there is a big difference between Orthodox Christianity and Lutheran Christianity, and not just historically), are not part of a closely aligned intergovernmental/ethnic organization and have never to my knowledge been a part of a same empire or a nation. So I'm not sure how your example applies here.
Or the US and South Africa. Same empire, same language, same religion, same ethnic groups, right?
Uhh, what
Not part of the same Empire (U.S. left long before South Africa was even colonized/conquered by the U.K.)
Not the same language (U.S. does not have an official language, South Africa has eleven)
Same religion? Christianity, but unlike the exact same religious affliation (Sunni Islam) practiced in the Arab World, you have Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Zion Christians, Methodists, Dutch Reformed and dozens of different churches all in different percentages and variations.
Same Ethnic groups? I was not aware of the large number of Afrikaner, Zulu and Xhosa people in United States. Or African American and Latinos in South Africa.
You are being intentionally obtuse here, or not aware of the histories of any of the countries involved.
Or the US and South Africa. Same empire, same language, same religion, same ethnic groups, right?
Uhh, what
Not part of the same Empire (U.S. left long before South Africa was even colonized/conquered by the U.K.)
Not the same language (U.S. does not have an official language, South Africa has eleven)
Same religion? Christianity, but unlike the exact same religious affliation (Sunni Islam) practiced in the Arab World, you have Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Zion Christians, Methodists, Dutch Reformed and dozens of different churches all in different percentages and variations.
Same Ethnic groups? I was not aware of the large number of Boers, Zulu and Xhosa people in United States. Or African Americans in South Africa.
You are being intentionally obtuse here, or not aware of the histories of any of the countries involved.
My feelings exactly. It's an exaggeration of your position, but not a huge one. You're defending a definition that includes regions that were never part of the same empire (not even at different times, like the US and South Africa), that speak multiple languages of which Arabic is one (not even a major language in some) with disparate cultures and histories and ethnicities. A common religion is not sufficient cause to compress that many geographically and historically distinct nations down to a loaded soundbite like "the Middle East". Using the term in the geographic sense is tolerable, in the same way that Europe refers to a region of very distinct cultures, but there's no legitimate or useful reason to extend its meaning to a broad Arabic stereotype. It's lazy thinking, actively harmful. Pigeonholing is something to be avoided, I thought.
You're defending a definition that includes regions that were never part of the same empire (not even at different times, like the US and South Africa),
The Roman Empire
Ottoman Empire
Fatimid Caliphate
Umayyad Caliphate
Are four I can name off the top of my head. Couple of small countries here and there that might not have been a part of some, but by and large those entities contained the entire Middle East and North Africa.
You are aware that the concept of nation states in North Africa and Middle East is a very young concept? Most of said countries had their arbitrary borders drawn by colonial powers, just like in Africa proper, and are no older then Israel in their current form.
that speak multiple languages of which Arabic is one (not even a major language in some)
In Israel, where it is spoken by roughly twenty percent and is still an official language (though in name only).
It's the major language in everywhere else in the Middle East, most of where it is the sole official language. Saying anything else is just lying or not doing one's research.
with disparate cultures and histories and ethnicities.
Very similar cultures, united in many parts of their existence and history.
The Arab League has 340 million population of which 275-300 million are Arabs.
Arab ethnicity is the dominating ethnicity in everywhere but Israel.
The region is 70% Arab, and the next largest group is 15-20% Berber - who are genetically and culturally indistinguishable from Arabs for the most part, and speak Arabic and their governments (Algeria, Libya and Morocco) make no meaningful demographic distinction between the two.
A common religion is not sufficient cause to compress that many geographically and historically distinct nations down to a loaded soundbite like "the Middle East".
A common religion is not the only thing that's common between them, as demonstrated.
It's no more of a loaded soundbite then "Europe" if it isn't used in derogatory context. It is a soundbite used inside the region as well considering how Pan-Arabism is perhaps the most important social movement in the region and one espoused by several of it's most important political and religious figures, as well as much of the population as a whole.
Don't know about other Europeans but I have no problem being called European and having news discuss about Europe when talking about European politics.
Using the term in the geographic sense is tolerable, in the same way that Europe refers to a region of very distinct cultures, but there's no legitimate or useful reason to extend its meaning to a broad Arabic stereotype. It's lazy thinking, actively harmful. Pigeonholing is something to be avoided, I thought.
Nobody is talking about a broad Arabic stereotype. Show me where I said that every Arab is the same person and thinks exactly the same. The conflicts that this very thread discusses should prove as much.
It's not like I think this is the only region in the world with similar cultural, linguistic, ethnic traditions and a very long combined history. The British Isles, for one. Scandinavia/Nordic countries. Germany. China. Iberian Peninsula. Korean Peninsula. Italian Peninsula. South and Central America for the most part. I could keep going.
All this bears down to the fact that discussing about Tunisia, Egypt or Libya in Middle East thread is not a problem for anyone else but the most pedantic of pedant people.
I can't believe someone is arguing about referring to North Africa as part of the Middle East.
It's technically called MENA (Middle East AND North Africa) by a lot of industries and governmental organizations, as the North African countries have more in common demographically, economically, and governmentally with other countries of the Middle East than they do with Sub-Saharan African nations.
You're defending a definition that includes regions that were never part of the same empire (not even at different times, like the US and South Africa),
The Roman Empire
Ottoman Empire
Fatimid Caliphate
Umayyad Caliphate
Are four I can name off the top of my head. Couple of small countries here and there that might not have been a part of some, but by and large those entities contained the entire Middle East and North Africa.
Those empires do collectively encompass almost all of the 'Greater Middle East', exluding a few countries like Mauritania. That still doesn't mean that, say, Turkey and Morocco have ever been part of the same empire. Unless you're serious about going back to Rome, in which case, well, what can I say? My point was not to get pedantic about what countries were left out of what empires - the bulk of them were part of the same historical empires, after all - but to point out that using ancient empires to support modern labels isn't necessarily justified. You could use the same reasoning to tie together the entire ex-British empire, but that would hardly be a useful classification.
You are aware that the concept of nation states in North Africa and Middle East is a very young concept? Most of said countries had their arbitrary borders drawn by colonial powers, just like in Africa proper, and are no older then Israel in their current form.
that speak multiple languages of which Arabic is one (not even a major language in some)
In Israel, where it is spoken by roughly twenty percent and is still an official language (though in name only).
It's the major language in everywhere else in the Middle East, most of where it is the sole official language. Saying anything else is just lying or not doing one's research.
Let's stop right there. The traditional Middle East includes Turkey and Iran. The Greater Middle East includes Pakistan and Afghanistan. What on earth would possess you to say such a thing?
I can't believe someone is arguing about referring to North Africa as part of the Middle East.
It's technically called MENA (Middle East AND North Africa) by a lot of industries and governmental organizations, as the North African countries have more in common demographically, economically, and governmentally with other countries of the Middle East than they do with Sub-Saharan African nations.
It's appended to "Middle East" here.
*facepalm*
Yes, lets just get over this one. The term Middle East, refering to North African countries is not at all controversial, and changing out terminology for the thread would only confuse the hell out of people.
Egypt is calmer today. There have been small scale demonstrations by some groups, such as laywers, but no mass protests like yesterday. The police cracked down fairly hard, I don't think they want that to happen again. We'll see if the protesters can get any sort of momentum going behind them.
(link includes video of yesterdays protests) http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112663450547321.html
Yes, lets just get over this one. The term Middle East, refering to North African countries is not at all controversial, and changing out terminology for the thread would only confuse the hell out of people.
I'm willing to shut up about it, it's just that not only do I dislike it, before recently I'd never even heard of it, at least not in a way that made it clear it was anything more than the traditional definition. According to Wikipedia it was coined by the Bush administration, so maybe it just never made its way over to NZ where I was living, or maybe I wasn't paying enough attention to the news. At any rate, now that I've frothed and sputtered about it I'll keep quiet and move on.
I can't believe someone is arguing about referring to North Africa as part of the Middle East.
It's technically called MENA (Middle East AND North Africa) by a lot of industries and governmental organizations, as the North African countries have more in common demographically, economically, and governmentally with other countries of the Middle East than they do with Sub-Saharan African nations.
It's appended to "Middle East" here.
*facepalm*
Yes, lets just get over this one. The term Middle East, refering to North African countries is not at all controversial, and changing out terminology for the thread would only confuse the hell out of people.
Egypt is calmer today. There have been small scale demonstrations by some groups, such as laywers, but no mass protests like yesterday. The police cracked down fairly hard, I don't think they want that to happen again. We'll see if the protesters can get any sort of momentum going behind them.
(link includes video of yesterdays protests) http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112663450547321.html
Around five hundred have been arrested, that might create new tensions.
sorry silly irelevent argument about the 'middle east' redacted for being beside the point/off topic.
Dammit Turkey and Morocco have been part of the Ummayad and Ottoman Empires, which existed after the "Western" Roman empire.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
In 2010, the Civil Administration destroyed 86 residences in Area C, including tents and shacks, B'Tselem said. That compares to only 28 in 2009. As a result, 472 Palestinians, including 223 minors, lost their homes last year, up from 217 (including 60 minors ) in 2009.
The UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said there was also a rise in demolitions of income-producing structures in Area C, especially cisterns, which are vital for sheepherding and agriculture.
Destroyed cisterns affected 14,136 Palestinians last year, up from 764 in 2009, OCHA said. This increases poverty and dependence on external aid, and in the long run is thus even more harmful than the destruction of residences, the organization added.
Among the protesters in Cairo was Alaa al-Aswany, author of the best-selling Yacoubian Building, which portrays corrupt politicians, police brutality and terrorism in Egypt.
A keen observer of Egyptian society, al-Aswany said the demonstrations were an important opening for the government's opponents.
"They broke the barrier of fear,'' he said. "The writers of the regime were saying Egypt is not Tunisia and Egyptians are less educated than Tunisians. But here is the thing: these young people proved they can take their rights forcefully."
Mubarak, 82, has not appointed a deputy since he became president in 1981 and is widely thought to be grooming his son Gamal to succeed him.
I've always liked the chap after his interview with BBC on the Yacoubian Building
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
USA has been issuing statements effectively supporting Mubarak, ie that Egypt is open to the needs of its people. While deploying plain clothed officers to arrest people and cutting off internet and mobile phone access.
Germanys foreign minister has been a bit more scathing about Mubarak's government.
One of the toughest comments came from German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle, who said he was "extremely concerned" and called on all involved to show restraint.
"We are seeing in the last few weeks that a country's stability is not endangered by granting civil rights. It is through the refusal of civil and human rights that societies become unstable," he said in a reference to Tunisia.
Protests are on going thus far but not as large as yesterday.
The police attacks that broke up the gathering in Cairo look to have occured at night when the crowds went down from 20,000 to 5,000 people.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
It seems Clinton has been a bit more blunt in today statements after her mealy mouthed egypt is our friend yesterday.
"We urge the Egyptian authorities not to prevent peaceful protests or block communications including on social media sites.
We believe strongly that the Egyptian government has an important opportunity at this moment in time to implement political, economic and social reforms to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people."
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
US interaction with the region seems to be based on the ludacrise domino theory. Of the fear that if a country overthrows it brutal, corrupt ruling class it immediately converts to a kaliphat who's overriding goal is the destruction of the US. hell you can see such misguided thinking on this board where people fear chimerical Islamic regimes popping up and attacking the US. Ignoring the fact that the only time that's happened has been Iran and they were being ground down by a USA supported Shah, and then invaded by a USA supported Iraq in order to weaken the new Iran. Yeah they had a beef with US bullshit.
You don't get to support the bad guys for years then pretend you're not involved when the people start protesting on the streets.
Bastable on
Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Posts
It's disappointing, but logical that eygpt's internal security apparatus have lernt from other middle east uprisings and have apparently cut Internet, mobile phone coverage and twitter. Unlike the Tunisian's security forces Mubarak's boys seem much more organized and more willing to clamp down on their own people, push come to shove.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/egypt-protests-mubarak
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
It's a bit of rhetorical challenge when just about every one of Israel's detractors come from theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records and aren't proposing anything better.
It's not exactly the pot calling the kettle black, but it is kinda like an evangelical fundamentalist klansman petitioning the city council over imminent domain grievances. The US doesn't exactly want to stand up and be seen saying, "Yes, yes, listen to the toothless hillbilly who wants to murder people!"
Wait, the majority of the EU are now "theocratic dictatorships who have terrible human rights records"?
ah yes the fabulously bankrupt argument: He may be a bastard, but he is our bastard.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Not to mention the UN. Pretty much everyone except the US is one of Israels detractors.
Doesn't stop U.S. from listening to the other murderous toothless hillbilly who murders people and steals their land to boot, though. Listening and paying money for them.
Well as stated above there is a reason it's only the "death to the zionists" crowd that publicly admit to the sun not shining out of Israels ass.
This is because every time anyone reasonable tries to say building settlements in land that doesn't belong to them and mass murdering the people who already happened to live there is kind of a dick move, the US steps in and vetos it faster than a free peadophile for every preschool program.
Middle East has basically meant that for a while. The term is kind of stupid nowadays.
In that same area
*waves a hand over the middle of an invisible map*
They are generally considered Greater Middle East. And because they are culturally, ethnically and linguistically very similar.
It's not really a geographic term anymore. Usually it seems to mean "Them Arabs and those Jews" these days.
Yeah, I mean look how eastern Algeria is, sitting right on the Prime Meridian and all. Why, I'm only a few miles from Greenwich, I must be in the Middle East myself. Yesterday I even met an Arab!
Middle east is now a conveniant catch all term for sandy places with muslims.
That's an awfully bold claim to make. I object to the use of the label, I don't think anything good can come out of identifying every country bordering Europe as "Wogland".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East
Turkish people have almost jack shit to do with Algerians. Grouping Turkey with Iran isn't very useful in most cases.
$2.5 billion is by no means an insignificant amount, but with the country's budget being about $16 billion without it and having plenty of its own state-of-the-art technology (the one area that is actually lacking is the navy, which will be screwed since Israel does not have its own warships) withdrawing it will not have an overt effect.
US support keeping the IDF afloat is somewhat of a myth. The US's actual contribution is, as you have said, defending Israel in the international stage. Withdrawing that will actually hurt.
RE security fence&friends: As you can see on the previous page I am far from being a fan of my government. Wait, let me put it in other words: I despise my government. It has done and is still doing terrible terrible things. Even then, I feel it is somewhat unfair to dub its actions as you do. Israel's government is a horrid enough of an organization to need to be put down even without blowing its crimes out of proportions - kicking people out of their land and then walling it in and calling them criminals (and shooting them as such) when they try to get back is not a deed that needs flowery WW2 comparisons to sound horrible.
Similar isn't identical. They have been on various parts of history united under same empires, speak the same language, have similar religious traditions, consider themselves belonging into the same ethnic group and are part of the same regional organization.
Don't see anything bold there, sorry.
If that was regarding my comment then I apologise. Calling people Nazis isn't really conductive to debate, and to be honest I can't say I'm with the Palestinians either.
I think that's the thing about the conflict I hate the most. Both sides use past wrongs against them as an excuse for their current atrocities.
I can't imagine what it's like to live in Israel and have a fear of a guy with a bomb stepping into the bus you're going to work in, but the way the Palestinians are being suppressed doesn't really seem to be helping the situation.
It's hard to see a solution since the moderate Israeli population is a shrinking part of the population, and the Palestinians have been growing up thinking of themselves as the victims for the last three generations. Maybe the terrible truth is that the hard-liners in Israel are right in constricting and thinning out the opposition before some final conflict in 5-10-15 years.
Living in Israel, do you see any hope fore the future?
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Island. Being on fire.
The same could be said of Europe. I have a feeling that as a Fin you have some strong opinions about working closely with Russia.
Also some of those countries are so far apart it would be like saying Norway and Greece should be lumped together because they are both European and Christian.
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Island. Being on fire.
Or the US and South Africa. Same empire, same language, same religion, same ethnic groups, right?
...not really? We are already pretty tight.
Are we talking about Geography?
And Norway and Greece do not share any historical, linguistic, ethnic or cultural traditions (or really religious traditions, there is a big difference between Orthodox Christianity and Lutheran Christianity, and not just historically), are not part of a closely aligned intergovernmental/ethnic organization and have never to my knowledge been a part of a same empire or a nation. So I'm not sure how your example applies here.
Uhh, what
Not part of the same Empire (U.S. left long before South Africa was even colonized/conquered by the U.K.)
Not the same language (U.S. does not have an official language, South Africa has eleven)
Same religion? Christianity, but unlike the exact same religious affliation (Sunni Islam) practiced in the Arab World, you have Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Zion Christians, Methodists, Dutch Reformed and dozens of different churches all in different percentages and variations.
Same Ethnic groups? I was not aware of the large number of Afrikaner, Zulu and Xhosa people in United States. Or African American and Latinos in South Africa.
You are being intentionally obtuse here, or not aware of the histories of any of the countries involved.
My feelings exactly. It's an exaggeration of your position, but not a huge one. You're defending a definition that includes regions that were never part of the same empire (not even at different times, like the US and South Africa), that speak multiple languages of which Arabic is one (not even a major language in some) with disparate cultures and histories and ethnicities. A common religion is not sufficient cause to compress that many geographically and historically distinct nations down to a loaded soundbite like "the Middle East". Using the term in the geographic sense is tolerable, in the same way that Europe refers to a region of very distinct cultures, but there's no legitimate or useful reason to extend its meaning to a broad Arabic stereotype. It's lazy thinking, actively harmful. Pigeonholing is something to be avoided, I thought.
Yes it is, a massive one.
The Roman Empire
Ottoman Empire
Fatimid Caliphate
Umayyad Caliphate
Are four I can name off the top of my head. Couple of small countries here and there that might not have been a part of some, but by and large those entities contained the entire Middle East and North Africa.
You are aware that the concept of nation states in North Africa and Middle East is a very young concept? Most of said countries had their arbitrary borders drawn by colonial powers, just like in Africa proper, and are no older then Israel in their current form.
In Israel, where it is spoken by roughly twenty percent and is still an official language (though in name only).
It's the major language in everywhere else in the Middle East, most of where it is the sole official language. Saying anything else is just lying or not doing one's research.
Very similar cultures, united in many parts of their existence and history.
The Arab League has 340 million population of which 275-300 million are Arabs.
Arab ethnicity is the dominating ethnicity in everywhere but Israel.
The region is 70% Arab, and the next largest group is 15-20% Berber - who are genetically and culturally indistinguishable from Arabs for the most part, and speak Arabic and their governments (Algeria, Libya and Morocco) make no meaningful demographic distinction between the two.
Next largest is three percent Kurds.
A common religion is not the only thing that's common between them, as demonstrated.
It's no more of a loaded soundbite then "Europe" if it isn't used in derogatory context. It is a soundbite used inside the region as well considering how Pan-Arabism is perhaps the most important social movement in the region and one espoused by several of it's most important political and religious figures, as well as much of the population as a whole.
Don't know about other Europeans but I have no problem being called European and having news discuss about Europe when talking about European politics.
Nobody is talking about a broad Arabic stereotype. Show me where I said that every Arab is the same person and thinks exactly the same. The conflicts that this very thread discusses should prove as much.
It's not like I think this is the only region in the world with similar cultural, linguistic, ethnic traditions and a very long combined history. The British Isles, for one. Scandinavia/Nordic countries. Germany. China. Iberian Peninsula. Korean Peninsula. Italian Peninsula. South and Central America for the most part. I could keep going.
All this bears down to the fact that discussing about Tunisia, Egypt or Libya in Middle East thread is not a problem for anyone else but the most pedantic of pedant people.
It's technically called MENA (Middle East AND North Africa) by a lot of industries and governmental organizations, as the North African countries have more in common demographically, economically, and governmentally with other countries of the Middle East than they do with Sub-Saharan African nations.
It's appended to "Middle East" here.
*facepalm*
I'm aware. I'm not sure what you're driving at.
Let's stop right there. The traditional Middle East includes Turkey and Iran. The Greater Middle East includes Pakistan and Afghanistan. What on earth would possess you to say such a thing?
Yes, lets just get over this one. The term Middle East, refering to North African countries is not at all controversial, and changing out terminology for the thread would only confuse the hell out of people.
Egypt is calmer today. There have been small scale demonstrations by some groups, such as laywers, but no mass protests like yesterday. The police cracked down fairly hard, I don't think they want that to happen again. We'll see if the protesters can get any sort of momentum going behind them.
(link includes video of yesterdays protests)
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112663450547321.html
Around five hundred have been arrested, that might create new tensions.
Dammit Turkey and Morocco have been part of the Ummayad and Ottoman Empires, which existed after the "Western" Roman empire.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/demolition-of-palestinian-homes-in-west-bank-s-area-c-tripled-in-2010-1.339216
Among the protesters in Cairo was Alaa al-Aswany, author of the best-selling Yacoubian Building, which portrays corrupt politicians, police brutality and terrorism in Egypt.
A keen observer of Egyptian society, al-Aswany said the demonstrations were an important opening for the government's opponents.
"They broke the barrier of fear,'' he said. "The writers of the regime were saying Egypt is not Tunisia and Egyptians are less educated than Tunisians. But here is the thing: these young people proved they can take their rights forcefully."
Mubarak, 82, has not appointed a deputy since he became president in 1981 and is widely thought to be grooming his son Gamal to succeed him.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112663450547321.html
I've always liked the chap after his interview with BBC on the Yacoubian Building
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Germanys foreign minister has been a bit more scathing about Mubarak's government.
One of the toughest comments came from German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle, who said he was "extremely concerned" and called on all involved to show restraint.
"We are seeing in the last few weeks that a country's stability is not endangered by granting civil rights. It is through the refusal of civil and human rights that societies become unstable," he said in a reference to Tunisia.
Also it seems that the security forces are busy arresting reporters and photographers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/26/egypt-protests-ban-police-cairo
Protests are on going thus far but not as large as yesterday.
The police attacks that broke up the gathering in Cairo look to have occured at night when the crowds went down from 20,000 to 5,000 people.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
"We urge the Egyptian authorities not to prevent peaceful protests or block communications including on social media sites.
We believe strongly that the Egyptian government has an important opportunity at this moment in time to implement political, economic and social reforms to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people."
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."
Suddenly when the people that have to live there are anti pro USA dictatorship the state department is terribly interested in being even handed.
The US is terribly interested in giving money for corrupt regimes to upgrade their security forces that are then used against their very own citizens.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/01/u-s-copter-sales-cant-save-wiki-ousted-tunisian-dictator/
US interaction with the region seems to be based on the ludacrise domino theory. Of the fear that if a country overthrows it brutal, corrupt ruling class it immediately converts to a kaliphat who's overriding goal is the destruction of the US. hell you can see such misguided thinking on this board where people fear chimerical Islamic regimes popping up and attacking the US. Ignoring the fact that the only time that's happened has been Iran and they were being ground down by a USA supported Shah, and then invaded by a USA supported Iraq in order to weaken the new Iran. Yeah they had a beef with US bullshit.
You don't get to support the bad guys for years then pretend you're not involved when the people start protesting on the streets.
"I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."