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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Brexit, Pursued by a Blair

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Radicalization of young voters through the internet is real and is one of a thousand things that make me extremely nervous for the future.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
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    Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Aren't they doing it at a time where he can't address (and by that I mean get roasted) by parliament though?

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    He won't be addressing Parliament, because a) he probably doesn't want to because he's a moron with no speaking skills and b) half the chamber would give him the stink eye and many would not attend. And they've been talking about doing most of it in Birmingham to try and lessen the possibility of protest disrupting things. Good luck with that.

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    BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »
    Radicalization of young voters through the internet is real and is one of a thousand things that make me extremely nervous for the future.

    Is this related to Le Pen's numbers? Is there a reason why the French internet might have had more of a radicalising effect on the young demographic?

    I'm wondering if the difference is simply because Le Pen is a more attractive figurehead than either Farage or Trump. That'd be very worrying, if so.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    When W. visited the Queen he destroyed her garden, I wonder what that scamp Trump will do.

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    Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    He won't be addressing Parliament, because a) he probably doesn't want to because he's a moron with no speaking skills and b) half the chamber would give him the stink eye and many would not attend. And they've been talking about doing most of it in Birmingham to try and lessen the possibility of protest disrupting things. Good luck with that.

    I'm sure I remember reading that some female MP's were going to boycott Trump if he addressed Parliament.

    Haven't 20%+ of Birmingham identified themselves as Muslim?

    Who is Trump going to meet up with from the Royal family? Not Charles, because he'll talk to him about global warming, and surely not William or Harry, considering how Trump "pursued" Diana, or what he said about Kate being photo'd naked (I also can't see Harry not saying something to wind him up either). Just the Queen then (surely without the Duke of Edinburgh for obvious reasons)?

    I honestly can't think Trump coming to the UK is going to be anything other than a shitstorm.

    PSN Fleety2009
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    He won't be addressing Parliament, because a) he probably doesn't want to because he's a moron with no speaking skills and b) half the chamber would give him the stink eye and many would not attend. And they've been talking about doing most of it in Birmingham to try and lessen the possibility of protest disrupting things. Good luck with that.

    I'm sure I remember reading that some female MP's were going to boycott Trump if he addressed Parliament.

    Haven't 20%+ of Birmingham identified themselves as Muslim?

    Who is Trump going to meet up with from the Royal family? Not Charles, because he'll talk to him about global warming, and surely not William or Harry, considering how Trump "pursued" Diana, or what he said about Kate being photo'd naked (I also can't see Harry not saying something to wind him up either). Just the Queen then (surely without the Duke of Edinburgh for obvious reasons)?

    I honestly can't think Trump coming to the UK is going to be anything other than a shitstorm.

    Theresa May will pretend to like him, just keep him at arms length and have a few burly bodyguards nearby if he tries to cross the line.

    Harry Dresden on
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    Paul Nuttall becoming entangled in a snarl that he really should have seen coming

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/hillsborough-families-dismayed-by-paul-nuttalls-insulting-admission

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    Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    so Farage as leader of UKIP again by the weekend?

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    japan wrote: »
    Paul Nuttall becoming entangled in a snarl that he really should have seen coming

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/14/hillsborough-families-dismayed-by-paul-nuttalls-insulting-admission

    It turns out I'm only a few years younger than this scumbag. I was just a kid when Hillsborough happened. I remember it for three reasons.

    My youngest brother was born the day before.

    It was a fabulously sunny day and, since Mum was still in hospital, I was sitting on my Uncle's windowsill while he listened to the match with the window open. I didn't pay any attention until it started sinking in that the commentators' voices sounded... off.

    The full colour photographs of purple, blue and white faces mashed against wire fencing in the tabloids the next day are images I have never been able to forget. It's been... Jesus, how old is my brother now, 28 years? And I still avoid photos of the victims in case I recognise one of them from those photos.

    That was my experience of Hillsborough as a kid in Ireland. The mere idea that someone who was in Britain when it happened who was old enough to know what was going on decided to use the disaster as a way to self-promote since the families of the victims are finally getting the press they deserve and not the press they've suffered for decades? It actually frightens me.

    Paul Nuttall is a sociopath. Never forget it.

    Desktop Hippie on
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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    There is a very beautiful memorial to the Hillsborough victims in Liverpool cathedral. It's disgusting what Nuttall has done.

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    Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Werewolf2000ad on
    steam_sig.png
    EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    In other 'tosser gets comeuppence' news JK Rowling tweeted a quote from a complimentary article somewhere and wondered idly who wrote it. Piers Morgan, who cannot let go of an argument he has long ago lost, loudly proclaimed this the worst sort of humblebrag, sarcastically quoting the article's use of 'intensely private billionaire'. One problem he hadn't noticed was that he wrote the article Rowling was quoting. Cue much hilarity and Piers Moron claiming that he knew all along he'd written it and meant to trip over just then.

    The Guardian did a bad job of containing its glee.
    Rowling had not publicly responded but was assumed by the Guardian to be wordlessly punching the air at her computer.

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Casual wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Trace wrote: »
    Y'know I've been meaning to ask.

    The Isles don't really have any... dangerous creatures native too them do they? Like there aren't any large predatory mammals, or deadly poisonous spiders or snakes right?

    A lot of the native wildlife is gone, actually.

    bbc.com/earth/story/20150604-can-we-make-britain-wild-again
    Compared to other European countries, the UK has been slow to reintroduce its indigenous species, despite European legislation encouraging it.

    Big predators now roam in nearly one-third of mainland Europe. There are currently 17,000 brown bears, 12,000 wolves, 9,000 Eurasian lynx and 1,250 wolverines. But not in Britain.

    The craziest one for me is finding out recently that the Burren is (at least partially) man-made.

    Essentially 100% of British landscape is at least partially man made.

    2/3's of Scotland is actually pretty much untouched. There's nothing larger than small towns on the entire west coast. The human population of Scotland is almost entirely centred in the Glasgow/Edinburgh areas and surrounding country side and the handful of cities dotting up the east coast.

    Pretty much every water way in Scotland is human engineered. Scotland would be an unlivable bog, as it was until the 1800s if not for the huge level of water engineering that is done. The whole land would basically be like the Flow Country in the north.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Our best friend's been living in the UK for the last eight years or so, and she's been in a relationship with a guy from London for much of that time (he's a Brit, she's Swiss). She came over this weekend and we talked about how Brexit might affect her. Turns out that they've been talking about worst-case scenarios and that they could both imagine upping tents and making a new start here in Switzerland if things got really bad.

    In other words: I've now got a vested interest in things getting really bad in the UK. Go, Tories! :P


    Edit: This is similar to me getting my current job thanks to the odious Swiss People's Party and their sadly successful Initiative Against Mass Immigration that led to Switzerland being excluded from Horizon 2020 in 2014. It's also possible that I have better chances of getting a job I've just applied for because of that same initiative, which puts increased pressure on employers to employ Swiss citizens. Dual citizenship and xenophobic, anti-EU populism FTW!

    Thirith on
    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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    pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    Paul Nuttall blames UKIP press officer for publishing a story that he didn't approve, hence the "confusion" about his Hillsborough claims.

    Press officer offers to resign.

    Nuttall says no, you just made a mistake.

    All cleared up, Nuttall looks like a generous and caring boss.

    Oh no wait there's more...

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I'm sure lots of politicians pad their personal experiences out with stuff they haven't done. Most are happy to tell you about the butcher/taxi driver/disabled child they met just the other day who coincidentally agreed with the politician about everything, but to fib about being at a national tragedy is reaching pretty hard.

    What a delightfully spectacular own goal.

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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    If 'Her Majesty the Queen' wants the visit so badly, they should have to host him. He should get to sit right next to Kate for dinner.

    I'm sure the House of Windsor will be eager to back future visits with him after that experience.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    If 'Her Majesty the Queen' wants the visit so badly, they should have to host him. He should get to sit right next to Kate for dinner.

    I'm sure the House of Windsor will be eager to back future visits with him after that experience.

    Poor Kate doesn't deserve that fate.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    If 'Her Majesty the Queen' wants the visit so badly, they should have to host him. He should get to sit right next to Kate for dinner.

    I'm sure the House of Windsor will be eager to back future visits with him after that experience.

    Wait, who said the Queen wanted to host him? Everything I'd read had indicated that she was angry at being put in the middle of all this.

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    If 'Her Majesty the Queen' wants the visit so badly, they should have to host him. He should get to sit right next to Kate for dinner.

    I'm sure the House of Windsor will be eager to back future visits with him after that experience.

    Yeah she doesn't really want to do, and is fucked off that she has to (if reports are to be believed)

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    CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    the government has responded to the petition to cancel Trump's state visit.
    HM Government believes the President of the United States should be extended the full courtesy of a State Visit. We look forward to welcoming President Trump once dates and arrangements are finalised.

    HM Government recognises the strong views expressed by the many signatories of this petition, but does not support this petition.

    During her visit to the United States on 27 January 2017, the Prime Minister, on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen, invited President Trump for a State Visit to the UK later this year. The invitation was accepted. This invitation reflects the importance of the relationship between the United States of America and the United Kingdom. At this stage, final dates have not yet been agreed for the State Visit.

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    as it stands the petition has 1,855,482 signatures.

    If 'Her Majesty the Queen' wants the visit so badly, they should have to host him. He should get to sit right next to Kate for dinner.

    I'm sure the House of Windsor will be eager to back future visits with him after that experience.

    Yeah she doesn't really want to do, and is fucked off that she has to (if reports are to be believed)

    To be fair, petitions or otherwise, Trump was always going to get to visit. He's the head of one of the few nation-states that can claim to be a superpower with a straight face. Even if we weren't about to drop in the economic do-do because of Brexit, nobody was going to turn down a visit from the President of the USA, regardless of how many people petitioned against it. I mean, we hosted Nixon for goodness sake, this isn't new.

    On the other hand, watching it all go terribly wrong is going to be delightful, and we have to take our entertainment where we can these days.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    I'm giving even odds that Trump ends up ignoring all their plans, and has the visit to the UK take place at one of his golf courses.
    On the UK government's expenses, obviously.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Can someone look up the betting house odds of Harry popping Trump in the schnoz and then the Queen using her one-time-only override to shoot down the Article 50 trigger?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    To be honest I'd hoped Trump would have been indicted and thus not be president by the time a state visit was due.

    PSN Fleety2009
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    To be honest I'd hoped Trump would have been indicted and thus not be president by the time a state visit was due.

    Not in this time line where Brexit and President Trump both happened within months of each other.

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    altidaltid Registered User regular
    From what I remember it isn't just that it's a state visit, but that the invitation was presented with unprecedented haste. Convention seems to be to wait at least a year before inviting a new president but in this case they're so eager to suck up to trump that convention has gone out the window.

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    Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    steam_sig.png
    EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    After a number of scandals that have been bubbling in the background for a few years started to boil over in the past week or two, Ireland's wacky, crazy patchwork government has been fraying at the edges. There was a motion of No Confidence against the Government, which they managed to see off, but pressure is now being put on Enda Kenny to either resign or confirm when he will resign. It's possible there'll be an announcement along those lines later today.

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    pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    Department for International Trade welcomes Europe's great new trade deal with Canada:



    headdesk.gif

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    After a number of scandals that have been bubbling in the background for a few years started to boil over in the past week or two, Ireland's wacky, crazy patchwork government has been fraying at the edges. There was a motion of No Confidence against the Government, which they managed to see off, but pressure is now being put on Enda Kenny to either resign or confirm when he will resign. It's possible there'll be an announcement along those lines later today.

    Yeah, it's worrying how countries all over the world seem to be imploding. Brexit in the UK is bad enough, but its ten times worse with this kind of shit boiling over.

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    Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    After a number of scandals that have been bubbling in the background for a few years started to boil over in the past week or two, Ireland's wacky, crazy patchwork government has been fraying at the edges. There was a motion of No Confidence against the Government, which they managed to see off, but pressure is now being put on Enda Kenny to either resign or confirm when he will resign. It's possible there'll be an announcement along those lines later today.

    how are things looking over there in terms of the alt-right and nationalism? could this be a blessing in disguise, a chance to elect a decent government and hopefully ride out the storm that sweeping the rest of the world?

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    SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Ireland's kinda strange in that our nationalism for the most part seems to veer very left wing (Sinn Féin, case in point). I don't think there's really any kind of organised right wing groups worth talking about really - none that make the papers certainly.

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    After a number of scandals that have been bubbling in the background for a few years started to boil over in the past week or two, Ireland's wacky, crazy patchwork government has been fraying at the edges. There was a motion of No Confidence against the Government, which they managed to see off, but pressure is now being put on Enda Kenny to either resign or confirm when he will resign. It's possible there'll be an announcement along those lines later today.

    how are things looking over there in terms of the alt-right and nationalism? could this be a blessing in disguise, a chance to elect a decent government and hopefully ride out the storm that sweeping the rest of the world?

    We get off VERY lightly because, while racism is a huge issue over here and while both our main political parties are right wing, our Nationalist movement is firmly left wing. No far right Nationalist party is gonna muscle in on Sinn Féin's turf :P They have very much cornered the market in that respect, and they make it their business to snap up the angry working class votes that are the lifeblood of far right groups.

    This means Neo-Nazi groups aren't able to dress themselves up as anything other than what they are. They skip the vague veneer of respectability UKIP can pull off if you don't look too hard and plunge right into Britain First level. There were a couple of attempts recently to launch a far right anti immigration party, but they never got off the ground. Mostly because when people like me found out where they were launching from, we called the venue to give them a heads up what the group they were hosting were actually up to. In general a business doesn't want to touch that crap with a ten foot barge pole, since immigrants work there or rent rooms like anybody else. Heck, Ireland hosts a bunch of European HQs of gigantic corporations like Google and Facebook, and a bunch of their senior employees are immigrants. They're not the vulnerable sort Neo-Nazis target on a daily basis, but it'll put any business that wants to get a sweet deal renting conference rooms to PayPal firmly on the side of immigration.

    If you ever need a glimpse into the far right racist Irish psyche and how things are working out for them, then our version of Brietbart is called - I shit you not - "The Liberal." They have a Twitter account and a website that I won't link here but that you should be able to find without too much trouble if you really want to look. They're being sued by a couple of journalists at the moment because they have a habit of lifting articles from news organisations like RTE so they can pretend to be a real news outlet and then hit people with the fake stuff. Their most recent fake news effort was trying to persuade everyone that there had been a massive riot in Dublin city centre that involved hundreds of - you guessed it - young male immigrants. They were very specific about the ethnicity, which is weird as there wasn't a single photo of the people in question, frame of mobile phone footage, photo of the damage, photo of injuries, none of the businesses in the area seemed to have noticed that anything happened etc and so on.

    As for our wacky crazy patchwork government? If there were an election tomorrow I don't think there'd be a massive change in the makeup of our Dáil. Everyone is pissed off with Fianna Gael for how they've handled things the past few years, but everyone is pissed off with Fianna Fáil for shafting us during the financial crisis. Labour might make a bit of a comeback, but most voters are sick of the irony of a right of centre Labour Party, and they did a horrible job as Fianna Gael's partner in government too. Sinn Féin might gain ground, but a good chunk of Irish voters have a problem swallowing an outfit that was involved in terrorism, kidnapping and protection rackets passing themselves off as the honest, non-corrupt choice in politics. My guess is we'd see a boost in middle to very left wing groups ranging from The Green Party and the Social Democrats to People Before Profit and the Anti Austerity Alliance, along with more middle to very right wing independs like Shane Ross and the Healy-Raes.

    There's nobody to swoop in as a fresh, baggage free alternative and snap up the Irish vote. Renua tried that in the last election and were obliterated on account of the whole Mrs. Lovejoy thing they had going on. I expect our next few governments are going to be the same parties and independents fighting it out and forming alliances with no clear winner emerging.

    Not the greatest way to run a country but eh, it's better than Trump.

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    pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    Not the greatest way to run a country but eh, it's better than Trump.

    So say we all.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    After a number of scandals that have been bubbling in the background for a few years started to boil over in the past week or two, Ireland's wacky, crazy patchwork government has been fraying at the edges. There was a motion of No Confidence against the Government, which they managed to see off, but pressure is now being put on Enda Kenny to either resign or confirm when he will resign. It's possible there'll be an announcement along those lines later today.

    Yeah, it's worrying how countries all over the world seem to be imploding. Brexit in the UK is bad enough, but its ten times worse with this kind of shit boiling over.

    I wouldn't worry too much in that the stuff that emerged this week is something that would - and bloody well should - rock any government to its core. The very short version is this: Somebody in Ireland's state agency for the protection of Children and Families copied some appalling claims of sex abuse from one of their files and pasted them into the file on a Garda (police) "whistleblower" who had exposed high level corruption within the Gardai. This file was then circulated widely among Gardai as part of a smear campaign against this whistleblower. This happened in 2013 and has only come to light now. It is very much the sort of thing heads should roll for.

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    pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    Tony Blair has returned, to ensure that those elements of the UK populace who were on the fence about opposing Brexit are now definitely not going to oppose Brexit.

    As I said when he suggested a second referendum, his points are valid - we did have a referendum in which the people were lied to, and it does seem right that we should be able to make some sort of judgement about the final deal, if it looks like we're going to suffer as a result. The problem is that it's Tony Blair saying this.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    If there was someone else, I dunno, maybe someone in the opposition leadership, who was vocalising the views of the 14 million who don't want this to happen I guess we could ignore Blair.

    But there isn't, so Blair says OK why not it's hardly going to trash my reputation lol. He's absolutely right about this.

This discussion has been closed.