Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
In the name of god why would she take GGWP AND Big Shot?!? Big Shot necessitates Torpedo Dash at 16. Also, if Greymane has shown he can kill you from full health like that, if he comes at you, you walk away or just get in the mech immediately. I don't think running into a bad D.Va player who repeatedly fails to learn from her mistakes, and has a bad build, is really a good reason to dis the better ult talent.
If greymane being within e range of you means you die in less than 0.5 seconds, none of those talents matter. Torpedo Dash just gives him more time to kill you because GFFT doesn't care about your movement, and the EAAQ come out instantly.
And if being within E range is too dangerous to use big shot and forcing you to get in the mech, you can't use big shot basically ever against him. Which is what happened to her.
Big Shot is a good talent, but it's not an always talent and it's extremely dangerous into higher players with high burst characters. You have to look at the comp and see what you can do. If it was a heavy frontline low burst comp lacking in hard cc? sure, I'll go Pew Pew Pew and reset all day. But into ranged/burst heavy comps it's dangerous at best.
Dude, you were playing against a bad D.Va, just accept it. You found a baddie and punished them. GJ, that's what you're supposed to do when you find one, but it doesn't make a talent, build or character bad. Although wow that's a terrible D.Va build, running GGWP and Big Shot together.
I get you're super opinionated about this because you've been maining D.Va, but by your standards like 90% of D.Vas out there are going to be bad D.Vas.
That's probably a good point and I should go be quiet about it now, lol.
XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
In the name of god why would she take GGWP AND Big Shot?!? Big Shot necessitates Torpedo Dash at 16. Also, if Greymane has shown he can kill you from full health like that, if he comes at you, you walk away or just get in the mech immediately. I don't think running into a bad D.Va player who repeatedly fails to learn from her mistakes, and has a bad build, is really a good reason to dis the better ult talent.
If greymane being within e range of you means you die in less than 0.5 seconds, none of those talents matter. Torpedo Dash just gives him more time to kill you because GFFT doesn't care about your movement, and the EAAQ come out instantly.
And if being within E range is too dangerous to use big shot and forcing you to get in the mech, you can't use big shot basically ever against him. Which is what happened to her.
Big Shot is a good talent, but it's not an always talent and it's extremely dangerous into higher players with high burst characters. You have to look at the comp and see what you can do. If it was a heavy frontline low burst comp lacking in hard cc? sure, I'll go Pew Pew Pew and reset all day. But into ranged/burst heavy comps it's dangerous at best.
Dude, you were playing against a bad D.Va, just accept it. You found a baddie and punished them. GJ, that's what you're supposed to do when you find one, but it doesn't make a talent, build or character bad. Although wow that's a terrible D.Va build, running GGWP and Big Shot together.
Ah yes, all the bad D.vas I find and murder on the regular in Master. I don't think it's an accident I win 55% of my games against D.va. I am not trying to take a super aggressive position wrt big shot. I think it's a good talent! I use it a lot, honestly more than bunny hop since I usually use D.va in QM, I like it! I just think people here are underrating bunny hop because they haven't been punished as pilot D.va, when she's a very punishable hero in that form.
Knight_ on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I mean, it's good to have debates about stuff, but at some point it's cool to just agree to disagree. Especially when it comes to talent choices at varying skill levels in different game modes.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Someone posted this in the Overwatch thread, and I found it an interesting read with some relevance to our discussions about HotS MMR and ranks:
I agree, I've never thought the algorithmic approach wrt stats and numbers really represents much different than wins and losses in the long term. Like, last night I had a game with a 14 death nova. We won, and she got carried hard, but should still get credit for winning. In the long term, someone who plays Nova like that will lose at this level, I don't need a formula to extra push her numbers down.
It encourages people to play to the spreadsheet and not to the game. Sometimes you should throw deaths to secure an objective, sometimes you should go trade 1 for 1 if it kills an integral member of their team, sometimes you should let someone die as support to save your heal for someone more important. It's really complicated and perhaps impossible to distill a moba down into a few categories and determine who is best from them.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Didn't you have a big ol' debate with @I needed a gnome to post. about this exact topic like a year ago? (Might have been someone else, my memory is awful, but that was definitely a debate that happened)
Yes, @MNC Dover and @Dibby , I can do the tournament tomorrow, but only if its just the two teams playing best of three. That would put the total time commitment at about an hour and a half max, right? Because the tournament starts at 3pm my time and I have to be like, out the door and on the way out of town with my family by like 5:15. I would ideally like to be finished by about 5, which would put us at 2 hours run-time. If that sounds feasible to you guys, I'm in. I wish I could fully commit without that provision, but I'm just monumentally busy on Saturday.
Yes, "MNC Dover" and Dibby , I can do the tournament tomorrow, but only if its just the two teams playing best of three. That would put the total time commitment at about an hour and a half max, right? Because the tournament starts at 3pm my time and I have to be like, out the door and on the way out of town with my family by like 5:15. I would ideally like to be finished by about 5, which would put us at 2 hours run-time. If that sounds feasible to you guys, I'm in. I wish I could fully commit without that provision, but I'm just monumentally busy on Saturday.
We could try and start a bit earlier, or just hope for a 2-0.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Didn't you have a big ol' debate with "I needed a gnome to post." about this exact topic like a year ago? (Might have been someone else, my memory is awful, but that was definitely a debate that happened)
We've had discussions about MMR and whatnot off-and-on for basically the existence of the game, at least since I've started playing it.
Oh, hey. Also, I'm not going to be able to be on tonight to draft teams with Dibby. I've been at work all day, I've only just eaten, and I have to leave in like 20 minutes to drive an hour away to do a podcast. I will likely be around tomorrow afternoon, kind of normal weekend time, though. Dibby and I typically get together and play games during that time, and if Dover can't be around I'm sure Dibby and I can hash out the teams between the two of us if that's cool.
Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
That's not a problem with Big Shot though since she'd be dead either way.
Like, honestly, if she's dying in range of a Greymane E leap range, she's fucking up to begin with. The key to playing DVa is to make sure you don't lose your mech in the wrong position.
Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
That's not a problem with Big Shot though since she'd be dead either way.
Like, honestly, if she's dying in range of a Greymane E leap range, she's fucking up to begin with. The key to playing DVa is to make sure you don't lose your mech in the wrong position.
Greymane's E range is pretty dang big with the 13 talent.
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ArcticLancerBest served chilled.Registered Userregular
Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
That's not a problem with Big Shot though since she'd be dead either way.
Like, honestly, if she's dying in range of a Greymane E leap range, she's fucking up to begin with. The key to playing DVa is to make sure you don't lose your mech in the wrong position.
But when half the reason they're standing still is because they're using Big Shot (Or Pew Pew Pew, even worse for this). It boggles my mind how few people take Mekafall. The damage and positioning are side benefits to the actual reason you take it - instant cast times.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited June 2017
Oooooooh, that feel when you start soloing people when you hit 16 or 20 with Murky and the dynamic totally changes. Yes, Mael'thael, pop your ult just for me. It's not going to save you.
Edit: Also motherfucking Mael'thael kills pufferfish by just autoing it when he starts hitting it halfway through. Pufferfish has just been assigned to late-game wave clearing because literally 80% of the roster can kill it easily.
Just wanted to play some HL tonight and the first game I get into has a Leoric who was feeding the entire game. He walked through the enemy walls to their keep and just died over and over. He died 29 times even though the game only lasted 12 minutes.
He picked all his talents so he was there the entire time too.
I just had the most worthless Kharazim on my team. He would dive WAY too deep into the enemy team, get himself stuck with Kaelthas' living bomb, and then would dive back into our team and apply the bomb to all of us.
Also, speaking of D.va and big shot as we have been recently, I killed a D.va with full energy 3 or 4 times last night in the same game as Greymane. If you have GFFT, E AA Q R kills her if she's at anything less than full hp, from a massive range post-13. She was trying to poke with Big Shot and GGWP autos, and I just deleted her over and over. 0.5 seconds doesn't sound like a long cast time, but given her HP in pilot mode, it's almost an eternity.
Big Shot is a very risky talent, lol.
That's not a problem with Big Shot though since she'd be dead either way.
Like, honestly, if she's dying in range of a Greymane E leap range, she's fucking up to begin with. The key to playing DVa is to make sure you don't lose your mech in the wrong position.
But when half the reason they're standing still is because they're using Big Shot (Or Pew Pew Pew, even worse for this). It boggles my mind how few people take Mekafall. The damage and positioning are side benefits to the actual reason you take it - instant cast times.
Oh yeah, Mekafall is my default these days because of that. If they have any sort of character that can easily interrupt a cast, it's a must at 20 imo. The damage is also pretty awesome. I've totally unexpectedly murdered people with that mech drop cause no one fucking expects it.
Oooooooh, that feel when you start soloing people when you hit 16 or 20 with Murky and the dynamic totally changes. Yes, Mael'thael, pop your ult just for me. It's not going to save you.
Edit: Also motherfucking Mael'thael kills pufferfish by just autoing it when he starts hitting it halfway through. Pufferfish has just been assigned to late-game wave clearing because literally 80% of the roster can kill it easily.
Murky can solo Malth from lvl 1. Murky absolutely shits all over Malth's face. He can't do damage to you easily, he can't heal off you and he can't escape your slimes. Just dance around him and keep sliming.
Also unless you build into it, pufferfish is basically meant to be an AoE that's incredibly difficult to get off. Arguably the talent to make it usable via survivability needs to be stronger to keep the thing alive and blowing up better to make Wrath of Cod at 16 a real option. But the basic idea of it's niche is pretty solid right now imo. It won't do shit if the enemy is on top of it but it pretty powerful if they aren't. And being on top of it is not easy for many characters if you play it right.
I just had an interesting match in the Silver City brawl.
My teammates picked Nova, Chromie, and two Tryandes. I showed Arthas and figured that we needed SOMEBODY to run interference for all these squishy ranged characters. However they laymented for me to go Li-Ming instead. So I went Li-Ming because YOLO. Team snipe was born.
The opposing team was Leoric, Dehaka, Nova, Sgt Hammer, and Tassadar. They had the advantage on us first and pressured our first fort really hard. It was a hilarious match of them trying to pin us down while we kited and threw out nukes. But then we all started getting our damage talents and they started dropping like flies. Our fragility forced us to keep falling back all the time, but we kept getting kills and the level gap kept widening. The final kill count was 62 to 12 and we had a 4 level lead at 21 to 17.
Poor Sgt Hammer kept using siege mode. That was basically instant death for her since it was a signal for the whole team to throw a skillshot her way.
nothing like getting megaflamed because my team constantly left split push zagara run hog wild and me on uther was the only person who ever tried to stop her. desperatly pinging my team to help me, but no, they go fight top over nothing, get 4 man wiped since i'm stuck fighting zagara, and we lose.
literally 2 of them ran right past me while i was pinging for help and 10 seconds later got zagara down to 5% before i died. it's incredible how blind people are. "lol uther sux" as i spent the entire game hard carrying them.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
How hard must one Murk carry?
Game was lost when their Falstad Wind Tunneled me--and only me--away from the teamfight.
Just got matched into a HL on the same team as @Kieri
It was... an experience. I think our Murky was either autistic or a little kid, only two explanations I can think of for his behavior. The other two on our team were.. bad.
Oh, one tip, Kieri, towards the end there, when Greymane was chasing you hard, you should have run towards Varian, not away from him, that way he could have worked with you to take down Grey. I know it's hard to think of looping around when you're like "omg i have no health he's gonna keeel me!" but you guys could have picked him easy if you'd done that.
EDIT: Next game I get the same Murky player.. and he takes Nova, then our banner locks out my healer.. after they'd already picked one. So, lets see how this goes, I'm guessing really badly.
EDIT2: Never underestimate the other team's ability to throw hard. Somehow won that.
morgan_coke on
XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Man, I can't believe Uther is still in this state. Like I love that they made him a real hero again since I like Uther a lot, but man Guardian of Ancient Kings is just so dumb. Our Valla gets rooted, eats full combo from Li-Ming and some spiders from Nazeebo, barely loses any health because I hit her with a W before they landed. Uther is generally just nuts because he hard counters CC, so you can't take CC into him, but then you just lose because you don't have any CC.
Knight_ on
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Oooooooh, that feel when you start soloing people when you hit 16 or 20 with Murky and the dynamic totally changes. Yes, Mael'thael, pop your ult just for me. It's not going to save you.
Edit: Also motherfucking Mael'thael kills pufferfish by just autoing it when he starts hitting it halfway through. Pufferfish has just been assigned to late-game wave clearing because literally 80% of the roster can kill it easily.
Murky can solo Malth from lvl 1. Murky absolutely shits all over Malth's face. He can't do damage to you easily, he can't heal off you and he can't escape your slimes. Just dance around him and keep sliming.
The problem is that's assuming there isn't a wave nearby to heal off of, and in the early game there almost always is. He can outsustain the hell out of you if he plays it right; you can usually avoid straight up dying to him, if you remember to allow time to run away after he teleports to you, but you'll never kill them before that if they're playing at all competently.
Also them not healing off of Soul Rip because you have a small health pool is nowhere near as big a deal as the nuke hitting you every two seconds cutting through your small health pool.
I think our Murky was either autistic or a little kid, only two explanations I can think of for his behavior.
My literal job is to provide ABA therapy to autistic children. It would be super cool if we didn't use that term as a put-down.
I wasn't using it as a put-down. I was serious. I think he might have been autistic.
EDIT: Had a third game in a row with the guy, he confirmed it. Doesn't justify him being super toxic three games in a row though. Explain it, sure, justify it, no.
morgan_coke on
XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
How do people still not understand hanamura? Why do all these scrubs keep refusing to push keeps and forts. They just wander around and push carts all day. I really wish that they'd just remove the whole map from the rotation for a year or so. Sick of it.
How do people still not understand hanamura? Why do all these scrubs keep refusing to push keeps and forts. They just wander around and push carts all day. I really wish that they'd just remove the whole map from the rotation for a year or so. Sick of it.
No Hanamura story will ever beat three members of my team refusing to boss for a win because they didn't know/believe it fired a shot when you took it.
XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
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That's probably a good point and I should go be quiet about it now, lol.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
Ah yes, all the bad D.vas I find and murder on the regular in Master. I don't think it's an accident I win 55% of my games against D.va. I am not trying to take a super aggressive position wrt big shot. I think it's a good talent! I use it a lot, honestly more than bunny hop since I usually use D.va in QM, I like it! I just think people here are underrating bunny hop because they haven't been punished as pilot D.va, when she's a very punishable hero in that form.
https://mindgames.blog/2017/06/22/in-defense-of-purist-skill-rating/
I agree, I've never thought the algorithmic approach wrt stats and numbers really represents much different than wins and losses in the long term. Like, last night I had a game with a 14 death nova. We won, and she got carried hard, but should still get credit for winning. In the long term, someone who plays Nova like that will lose at this level, I don't need a formula to extra push her numbers down.
It encourages people to play to the spreadsheet and not to the game. Sometimes you should throw deaths to secure an objective, sometimes you should go trade 1 for 1 if it kills an integral member of their team, sometimes you should let someone die as support to save your heal for someone more important. It's really complicated and perhaps impossible to distill a moba down into a few categories and determine who is best from them.
Didn't you have a big ol' debate with @I needed a gnome to post. about this exact topic like a year ago? (Might have been someone else, my memory is awful, but that was definitely a debate that happened)
We could try and start a bit earlier, or just hope for a 2-0.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I know you were a part of it for sure, which is why I @'d you
If that arrangement works for everyone else, that's much easier on me.
We've had discussions about MMR and whatnot off-and-on for basically the existence of the game, at least since I've started playing it.
That's not a problem with Big Shot though since she'd be dead either way.
Like, honestly, if she's dying in range of a Greymane E leap range, she's fucking up to begin with. The key to playing DVa is to make sure you don't lose your mech in the wrong position.
Anyway I placed silver 3 boop doop
I'm pretty sure my HL is gonna be crap this season. I'm 1-5 now in placements, about to be 1-6 probably. sigh
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Greymane's E range is pretty dang big with the 13 talent.
But when half the reason they're standing still is because they're using Big Shot (Or Pew Pew Pew, even worse for this). It boggles my mind how few people take Mekafall. The damage and positioning are side benefits to the actual reason you take it - instant cast times.
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
Edit: Also motherfucking Mael'thael kills pufferfish by just autoing it when he starts hitting it halfway through. Pufferfish has just been assigned to late-game wave clearing because literally 80% of the roster can kill it easily.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
He picked all his talents so he was there the entire time too.
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Oh yeah, Mekafall is my default these days because of that. If they have any sort of character that can easily interrupt a cast, it's a must at 20 imo. The damage is also pretty awesome. I've totally unexpectedly murdered people with that mech drop cause no one fucking expects it.
Murky can solo Malth from lvl 1. Murky absolutely shits all over Malth's face. He can't do damage to you easily, he can't heal off you and he can't escape your slimes. Just dance around him and keep sliming.
Also unless you build into it, pufferfish is basically meant to be an AoE that's incredibly difficult to get off. Arguably the talent to make it usable via survivability needs to be stronger to keep the thing alive and blowing up better to make Wrath of Cod at 16 a real option. But the basic idea of it's niche is pretty solid right now imo. It won't do shit if the enemy is on top of it but it pretty powerful if they aren't. And being on top of it is not easy for many characters if you play it right.
My teammates picked Nova, Chromie, and two Tryandes. I showed Arthas and figured that we needed SOMEBODY to run interference for all these squishy ranged characters. However they laymented for me to go Li-Ming instead. So I went Li-Ming because YOLO. Team snipe was born.
The opposing team was Leoric, Dehaka, Nova, Sgt Hammer, and Tassadar. They had the advantage on us first and pressured our first fort really hard. It was a hilarious match of them trying to pin us down while we kited and threw out nukes. But then we all started getting our damage talents and they started dropping like flies. Our fragility forced us to keep falling back all the time, but we kept getting kills and the level gap kept widening. The final kill count was 62 to 12 and we had a 4 level lead at 21 to 17.
Poor Sgt Hammer kept using siege mode. That was basically instant death for her since it was a signal for the whole team to throw a skillshot her way.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
literally 2 of them ran right past me while i was pinging for help and 10 seconds later got zagara down to 5% before i died. it's incredible how blind people are. "lol uther sux" as i spent the entire game hard carrying them.
Game was lost when their Falstad Wind Tunneled me--and only me--away from the teamfight.
It was... an experience. I think our Murky was either autistic or a little kid, only two explanations I can think of for his behavior. The other two on our team were.. bad.
Oh, one tip, Kieri, towards the end there, when Greymane was chasing you hard, you should have run towards Varian, not away from him, that way he could have worked with you to take down Grey. I know it's hard to think of looping around when you're like "omg i have no health he's gonna keeel me!" but you guys could have picked him easy if you'd done that.
EDIT: Next game I get the same Murky player.. and he takes Nova, then our banner locks out my healer.. after they'd already picked one. So, lets see how this goes, I'm guessing really badly.
EDIT2: Never underestimate the other team's ability to throw hard. Somehow won that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
The problem is that's assuming there isn't a wave nearby to heal off of, and in the early game there almost always is. He can outsustain the hell out of you if he plays it right; you can usually avoid straight up dying to him, if you remember to allow time to run away after he teleports to you, but you'll never kill them before that if they're playing at all competently.
Also them not healing off of Soul Rip because you have a small health pool is nowhere near as big a deal as the nuke hitting you every two seconds cutting through your small health pool.
My literal job is to provide ABA therapy to children with autism. It would be super cool if we didn't use that term as a put-down.
I wasn't using it as a put-down. I was serious. I think he might have been autistic.
EDIT: Had a third game in a row with the guy, he confirmed it. Doesn't justify him being super toxic three games in a row though. Explain it, sure, justify it, no.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
No Hanamura story will ever beat three members of my team refusing to boss for a win because they didn't know/believe it fired a shot when you took it.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything