A director's cut means the director feels like somebody else damaged the film. It might be longer, and most are, but it also be shorter. The closest thing to a director's cut of Caligula removes a ton of shit added by the guy from Penthouse. If we were to get one from Age of Ultron, everything I've read leads me to believe it would lose the pool scene with Thor and probably gain less in exchange.
A director's cut means the director feels like somebody else damaged the film. It might be longer, and most are, but it also be shorter. The closest thing to a director's cut of Caligula removes a ton of shit added by the guy from Penthouse. If we were to get one from Age of Ultron, everything I've read leads me to believe it would lose the pool scene with Thor and probably gain less in exchange.
Not all directors cuts are shorter RE: Batman vs Superman.
The best director's cuts are both Ridley Scott oddly enough. Blade Runner Final Cut and Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut are both substantially different movies than the ones you could have seen in theaters.
Yes, I noted that. The vast majority are, but it's not a universal, hence the distinction between director's cut and extended cut.
Also, on some research, apparently the alternate cut of Caligula managed to be 19 minutes longer than the original, despite cutting like an hour and a half of hardcore pornography shot on the same set with a different crew. I guess the title role and all the big name actors were basically left on the cutting room floor because the director wanted "orgy of power" but the editor preferred "power of orgy."
The best director's cuts are both Ridley Scott oddly enough. Blade Runner Final Cut and Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut are both substantially different movies than the ones you could have seen in theaters.
This would be because Scott was forced by the studios to change the films before release, against his wishes.
Generally speaking, when a director is forced to change the film against their will, that means a director's cut will turn out to be superior.
had a customer come by today who worked at a movie theater. They were wearing a Spider-Man Homecoming t-shirt; naturally, I commented on this and added, "but have you seen the movie?"
and they said, "... six times"
When my autistic son likes a movie, he wants to go over and over again. Our record is seeing Minions in the theater 19 times.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
Spider-Man was decent. I loved the tension when they were in the car. Palpable and shit. I liked how half of the in suit shots were CG and half were practical but not too obviously a sound stage. Tom Holland is a great Spider-Man. Michael Keaton did amazing. That ending was great. Ned was great. It was just a little underwhelming for good parts of it.
Still sucks they couldn't give a shout-out to the Netflixverse or the Shieldverse.
Spider-Man was decent. I loved the tension when they were in the car. Palpable and shit. I liked how half of the in suit shots were CG and half were practical but not too obviously a sound stage. Tom Holland is a great Spider-Man. Michael Keaton did amazing. That ending was great. Ned was great. It was just a little underwhelming for good parts of it.
Still sucks they couldn't give a shout-out to the Netflixverse or the Shieldverse.
Although why the obvious CG seagulls?
Marvel doesn't even do that and this was half a Sony movie so zero chance of that happening.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
At this point, expecting a shoutout to the televised parts of the MCU and being upset it didnt happen is like being mad at your dog for not talking.
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WearingglassesOf the friendly neighborhood varietyRegistered Userregular
Only if the pet store owner convinced you that "Oh yeah that dog will totally be able to speak when it grows up, yup"
Which now is somewhat a different set of shame-of-yous
Spider-Man was decent. I loved the tension when they were in the car. Palpable and shit. I liked how half of the in suit shots were CG and half were practical but not too obviously a sound stage. Tom Holland is a great Spider-Man. Michael Keaton did amazing. That ending was great. Ned was great. It was just a little underwhelming for good parts of it.
Still sucks they couldn't give a shout-out to the Netflixverse or the Shieldverse.
Although why the obvious CG seagulls?
Marvel doesn't even do that and this was half a Sony movie so zero chance of that happening.
If Marvel wanted to do that what was Sony going to do? They need Marvel more than Marvel needs them.
Where/when did they suggest that the MCU TV series would receive shoutouts in the movies? (Not saying that I wouldn't welcome it, if done well.)
1. It's heavily implied in the shared universe concept. It's like in the comics if the FF suddenly stopped referencing mutants as a thing.
2. They've done the opposite, actually. While no one truly knows what's going on behind the scenes for this, it can be read as political infighting. This gets twice as weird when the entire tv branch does that to each section of itself.
At this point, expecting a shoutout to the televised parts of the MCU and being upset it didnt happen is like being mad at your dog for not talking.
What is that analogy?
It's more like having a kid and they grow up and you refuse to speak to them or about them. That kid is better and more interesting than you, I might add. The Netflixverse at least, although Shield has had really good moments on par with the movies.
Also, they never explicitly stated they would reference the shows, but seeing as they are in the same universe, and in this case, the same city, you would think something would have been said about the bombings, shootings, mind control, a big recorded fight in Harlem (which used equipment from a company in Iron Man 2) and the fact that Spider-Man isn't the first hero that is local to New York.
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
The movies are the only reason the shows got made at all, obviously the movies are more important. AoS is built to react to the MCU status quo, but can't really have anything too revelatory or essential to know like the movies do. Netflix shows feel better because even though it's the MCU, it feels like New York is almost the character here. The stakes, while lower, aren't competing for Iron Man or even Spider-Man levels.
I like that Daredevil is relatively fragile compared to most supers. And while he isn't flipping around with his baton quite like the comics, it makes him feel more relatable than Iron Man's CGI armor set.
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
This isn't something which is impossible to accomplish, and actually getting everyone on board to have the basics that x is happening or is a Thing would go along way. Even a guest appearance would be ok, this goes double for the tv division within its own mini-universe. The movies wouldn't lose anything by having someone say, or notice something relevant to the plot, that Inhumans exist for instance.
The hard part would be the scheduling and getting everyone on board with at least the basics of how the universe works, but that's something they're doing anyway with their own movies on the movie side so it;s not like they don't have experience with this.
They also must decide whether this is a shared universe or not. If it's not then don't stake their brand on it, or they'll risk upsetting their audience.
This is a strange defense given that the tv branch makes overt ties to the movies because they think they're important to get the viewers hooked. Yet this sentiment isn't shared by their comrades on the movie side?
This is a strange defense given that the tv branch makes overt ties to the movies because they think they're important to get the viewers hooked. Yet this sentiment isn't shared by their comrades on the movie side?
Re-read what I wrote and try to see it from the perspective of someone who hasn't already bought into the whole package. You're looking at this as a hyperfan: you already watch all of it, why wouldn't they do the kind of fan service you want? That's not their perspective, and IMO understandably so. Put a reference to Inhumans in the films and the people who don't watch Agents of SHIELD will go, "Huh? What? Did we miss something?" Which, in turn, is more likely to make them feel excluded than go and watch AoS. The other way around, it's very unlikely that the TV audiences won't also go and see the films, and the TV audiences don't translate into direct box office. If you make them miffed because there aren't any shout-outs in the films, they'll still keep watching. Make the movie fans feel like you're telling an in-joke and they're not included, and they'll start thinking that the MCU isn't for them.
For the record, I'd like there to be more of a sense of connection than there currently is, but I absolutely understand why they err on the side of caution.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
I cant tell you how much i love this idea.
Unfortunately, since most of the veiwing audience arent comic book readers, i worry the sheer awesomeness would go over their heads.
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
As an aside, I remember reading a bunch of old comics when I was a kid, and plenty of them had little bubbles declaring "*AS SEEN IN ISSUE XX OF _______, 'NUFF SAID!" and I kept thinking "who the hell is this 'Nuff' person, and why should I give a crap what they said?!"
Eventually all became so much clearer...
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
They're erring on the side of caution. People who watch the films may not watch the TV series (for any number of reasons), so you don't want to give them the feeling they're missing something. It's one of the main risks of multimedia IPs; you don't want to put people off by making your IP feel like one big in-joke and the result is usually that there's a sort of unofficial hierarchy of sub-IPs, where the one at the top (i.e. the biggest money maker) acts as if the ones below don't exist.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
It could make for a fine DVD extra, though.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
This is a strange defense given that the tv branch makes overt ties to the movies because they think they're important to get the viewers hooked. Yet this sentiment isn't shared by their comrades on the movie side?
Re-read what I wrote and try to see it from the perspective of someone who hasn't already bought into the whole package. You're looking at this as a hyperfan: you already watch all of it, why wouldn't they do the kind of fan service you want? That's not their perspective, and IMO understandably so. Put a reference to Inhumans in the films and the people who don't watch Agents of SHIELD will go, "Huh? What? Did we miss something?" Which, in turn, is more likely to make them feel excluded than go and watch AoS. The other way around, it's very unlikely that the TV audiences won't also go and see the films, and the TV audiences don't translate into direct box office. If you make them miffed because there aren't any shout-outs in the films, they'll still keep watching. Make the movie fans feel like you're telling an in-joke and they're not included, and they'll start thinking that the MCU isn't for them.
For the record, I'd like there to be more of a sense of connection than there currently is, but I absolutely understand why they err on the side of caution.
This it's not just about people who watch all of it, while the movies would have the most viewers and crossover not everyone who watches the tv shows watches all the tv shows or the movies - and yet they continue to make references to the movies above all else without alienating these people.
Nor does this have to be something which is alienating, this is an opportunity to get them to see watch the tv shows or whatever - but they need to do it correctly, which is in their power to do so. Its all about how they'd reference Inhumans, too. Make it basic, they don't need to go into detail or anything or have an Inhuman show up or something. This gets even easier with characters like Kingpin - introduce him into a Spider-man movie as a powerful crime boss who got thrown in prison by this weird vigilante with horns on his head. Make them plot relevant, or something which will entice the audience to explore further. They've got plenty of material to do that with, as well as being able to consult the people who make those shows and the actors themselves.
Nor does this have to be only in films, have Cap show up in an episode or two of a tv show. I'd think the movie audience would be drawn to his appearance their and thus can be hooked on said show when they previously didn't. Especially with well known characters in the films who have disappeared without a trace like Sif and the Warriors Three.
The Kree have been introduced into the movies, as well. An excellent plot device to talk about Inhumans. "These evil blue aliens came to earth millenia ago and created Inhumans." Done. If it's relevant to the conversation go a bit deeper later on with their link. Keep it short, precise and easy to follow and relevant to the movie in question.
Having elements from various tv shows and movies (like Kree and Inhumans) appearing in all over the MCU, getting the audiences familiar with them as well as providing extra time to fill in the blanks and do other stuff with them related to the plots of episodes so they're not shoehorned in. Get the audience hungry for more, and thirsting to discover more about where they came from and what they showed up in.
Get the Defenders to show up in other tv shows, and vice versa. Make this a regular thing whether it's a short cameo, a minor reference only a Marvel fan will know (they do this already in Marvel films, the general audience were not alienated when Marvel threw in the Celestials for a couple scenes in GOTG which were crazy and never mentioned again).
Don't over do it, do it smartly, expand them into plot points and ways to increase depth into the movies/shows - in a way AoS did this with Ghost Rider.
Tv's format is an edge with this sort of thing, since they can dedicate an episode or more to this person/species unlike movies.
Marvel's actually quite good at doing this when they try, this is partly why their films feel like a universe to to their movie audience. That risk paid off big time, so why not let the tv side get in on that action?
Is this a cinematic universe or not? If not, officially shunt off the tv branch from the movie branch and get it over with.
edit: SHIELD itself would have the smoothest hook, everyone already knows who they are and what they do as an organization. Hold off Coulson until he's revealed to be alive in an actual movie, though.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
I could see this working extremely well in a Deadpool movie, or the like.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
I could see this working extremely well in a Deadpool movie, or the like.
Deadpool himself telling the audience would be better.
This is a strange defense given that the tv branch makes overt ties to the movies because they think they're important to get the viewers hooked. Yet this sentiment isn't shared by their comrades on the movie side?
Re-read what I wrote and try to see it from the perspective of someone who hasn't already bought into the whole package. You're looking at this as a hyperfan: you already watch all of it, why wouldn't they do the kind of fan service you want? That's not their perspective, and IMO understandably so. Put a reference to Inhumans in the films and the people who don't watch Agents of SHIELD will go, "Huh? What? Did we miss something?" Which, in turn, is more likely to make them feel excluded than go and watch AoS. The other way around, it's very unlikely that the TV audiences won't also go and see the films, and the TV audiences don't translate into direct box office. If you make them miffed because there aren't any shout-outs in the films, they'll still keep watching. Make the movie fans feel like you're telling an in-joke and they're not included, and they'll start thinking that the MCU isn't for them.
For the record, I'd like there to be more of a sense of connection than there currently is, but I absolutely understand why they err on the side of caution.
This it's not just about people who watch all of it, while the movies would have the most viewers and crossover not everyone who watches the tv shows watches all the tv shows or the movies - and yet they continue to make references to the movies above all else without alienating these people.
Nor does this have to be something which is alienating, this is an opportunity to get them to see watch the tv shows or whatever - but they need to do it correctly, which is in their power to do so. Its all about how they'd reference Inhumans, too. Make it basic, they don't need to go into detail or anything or have an Inhuman show up or something. This gets even easier with characters like Kingpin - introduce him into a Spider-man movie as a powerful crime boss who got thrown in prison by this weird vigilante with horns on his head. Make them plot relevant, or something which will entice the audience to explore further. They've got plenty of material to do that with, as well as being able to consult the people who make those shows and the actors themselves.
Nor does this have to be only in films, have Cap show up in an episode or two of a tv show. I'd think the movie audience would be drawn to his appearance their and thus can be hooked on said show when they previously didn't. Especially with well known characters in the films who have disappeared without a trace like Sif and the Warriors Three.
The Kree have been introduced into the movies, as well. An excellent plot device to talk about Inhumans. "These evil blue aliens came to earth millenia ago and created Inhumans." Done. If it's relevant to the conversation go a bit deeper later on with their link. Keep it short, precise and easy to follow and relevant to the movie in question.
Having elements from various tv shows and movies (like Kree and Inhumans) appearing in all over the MCU, getting the audiences familiar with them as well as providing extra time to fill in the blanks and do other stuff with them related to the plots of episodes so they're not shoehorned in. Get the audience hungry for more, and thirsting to discover more about where they came from and what they showed up in.
Get the Defenders to show up in other tv shows, and vice versa. Make this a regular thing whether it's a short cameo, a minor reference only a Marvel fan will know (they do this already in Marvel films, the general audience were not alienated when Marvel threw in the Celestials for a couple scenes in GOTG which were crazy and never mentioned again).
Don't over do it, do it smartly, expand them into plot points and ways to increase depth into the movies/shows - in a way AoS did this with Ghost Rider.
Tv's format is an edge with this sort of thing, since they can dedicate an episode or more to this person/species unlike movies.
Marvel's actually quite good at doing this when they try, this is partly why their films feel like a universe to to their movie audience. That risk paid off big time, so why not let the tv side get in on that action?
Is this a cinematic universe or not? If not, officially shunt off the tv branch from the movie branch and get it over with.
edit: SHIELD itself would have the smoothest hook, everyone already knows who they are and what they do as an organization. Hold off Coulson until he's revealed to be alive in an actual movie, though.
Rarely do i say this Harry but I agree with everything in your post. Furthermore, what you described is exactly what comics have been doing for ages. Done smartly, embracing this aspect of their shared universe would pay off both critically and financially, and Marvel has my vote of confidence they could pull it off.
The only problem is that the TV segment is sectioned off from the MCU by design, since Perlmutter and Feige don't play well together. If there's a shift in leadership on the TV side there might be more cohesion.
At this point, expecting a shoutout to the televised parts of the MCU and being upset it didnt happen is like being mad at your dog for not talking.
What is that analogy?
It's more like having a kid and they grow up and you refuse to speak to them or about them. That kid is better and more interesting than you, I might add. The Netflixverse at least, although Shield has had really good moments on par with the movies.
Also, they never explicitly stated they would reference the shows, but seeing as they are in the same universe, and in this case, the same city, you would think something would have been said about the bombings, shootings, mind control, a big recorded fight in Harlem (which used equipment from a company in Iron Man 2) and the fact that Spider-Man isn't the first hero that is local to New York.
Nah, doesn't even really need anything said, it can be akin to ... Christine Everhart at WHiH playing in the background on a tv set, don't even have to hear it, some plucky fan will screen cap it and it will become an easter egg. That's all the connective tissue the MCU needs to the Netflix stuff. The ideal though would be like how in the comics, the Infinity War seemed to include damn well near everyone in it. It was a crazy huge cross over IIRC.
A reminder for some, WHiH Newsfront was some very cool promotional stuff, a youtube, twitter, and google+ that had this classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xnbyefdpdk
WHiH has also appeared in SHIELD and the Netflix shows.
So, the medium for the message of easter eggs already exists, like a poster with Stan Lee's face on it in the background of a Luke Cage shot.
There is already a ton of easter eggs through out the Marvel stuff as it is, this would just be more of that.
For the record, I'd like there to be more of a sense of connection than there currently is, but I absolutely understand why they err on the side of caution.
This it's not just about people who watch all of it, while the movies would have the most viewers and crossover not everyone who watches the tv shows watches all the tv shows or the movies - and yet they continue to make references to the movies above all else without alienating these people.
Nor does this have to be something which is alienating, this is an opportunity to get them to see watch the tv shows or whatever - but they need to do it correctly, which is in their power to do so. Its all about how they'd reference Inhumans, too. Make it basic, they don't need to go into detail or anything or have an Inhuman show up or something. This gets even easier with characters like Kingpin - introduce him into a Spider-man movie as a powerful crime boss who got thrown in prison by this weird vigilante with horns on his head. Make them plot relevant, or something which will entice the audience to explore further. They've got plenty of material to do that with, as well as being able to consult the people who make those shows and the actors themselves.
Nor does this have to be only in films, have Cap show up in an episode or two of a tv show. I'd think the movie audience would be drawn to his appearance their and thus can be hooked on said show when they previously didn't. Especially with well known characters in the films who have disappeared without a trace like Sif and the Warriors Three.
The Kree have been introduced into the movies, as well. An excellent plot device to talk about Inhumans. "These evil blue aliens came to earth millenia ago and created Inhumans." Done. If it's relevant to the conversation go a bit deeper later on with their link. Keep it short, precise and easy to follow and relevant to the movie in question.
Having elements from various tv shows and movies (like Kree and Inhumans) appearing in all over the MCU, getting the audiences familiar with them as well as providing extra time to fill in the blanks and do other stuff with them related to the plots of episodes so they're not shoehorned in. Get the audience hungry for more, and thirsting to discover more about where they came from and what they showed up in.
Get the Defenders to show up in other tv shows, and vice versa. Make this a regular thing whether it's a short cameo, a minor reference only a Marvel fan will know (they do this already in Marvel films, the general audience were not alienated when Marvel threw in the Celestials for a couple scenes in GOTG which were crazy and never mentioned again).
Don't over do it, do it smartly, expand them into plot points and ways to increase depth into the movies/shows - in a way AoS did this with Ghost Rider.
Tv's format is an edge with this sort of thing, since they can dedicate an episode or more to this person/species unlike movies.
Marvel's actually quite good at doing this when they try, this is partly why their films feel like a universe to to their movie audience. That risk paid off big time, so why not let the tv side get in on that action?
Is this a cinematic universe or not? If not, officially shunt off the tv branch from the movie branch and get it over with.
edit: SHIELD itself would have the smoothest hook, everyone already knows who they are and what they do as an organization. Hold off Coulson until he's revealed to be alive in an actual movie, though.
I agree with you that this could be cool, if done well. I'm not a huge fan of the whole "they're connected, kinda, but not really", because it makes the world less believable. I just don't think it's realistic to think that it's likely to happen much more than it currently is, for various reasons.
One is that getting the TV audience to care about the movies is much easier, because most likely it's already the case. The TV shows came about *because* of the movies. I'm pretty sure that any audience that watches Agents of SHIELD but doesn't watch the majority of MCU movies is so small it's negligible. The other way around it's a much trickier proposition: it's easier to get people to commit to watching 2-3 films a year than it is to get those same people to commit to several multi-season TV shows. People have time to fit in a movie every few months; series are much more of a commitment because they take more time. Added to which, the international audience might not all have regular or easy access to the series they're most interested in; for instance, I would have to get the DVDs to watch Agents of SHIELD or Agent Carter in the original. So, if someone like me watches the films and gets the impression that they have to watch at least some of the series in order to get the most from the latest movie, it doesn't take much for them to feel alienated.
Another is: you seem to think that it's easily done to get Cap (or whoever else) to show up in an episode or two of one of the TV shows. I may be wrong here, but most movie stars won't just do such appearances. They might do stuff that's seen as prestige TV, they might do HBO series or something like Twin Peaks, they might even have a big part in one of the Netflix series, but that's different from a guest spot on an ABC show. Their agents wouldn't want them to do it. You might very occasionally manage to get someone like Samuel L. Jackson for a guest appearance, but that's a huge exception.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I agree with you that this could be cool, if done well. I'm not a huge fan of the whole "they're connected, kinda, but not really", because it makes the world less believable. I just don't think it's realistic to think that it's likely to happen much more than it currently is, for various reasons.
One is that getting the TV audience to care about the movies is much easier, because most likely it's already the case. The TV shows came about *because* of the movies. I'm pretty sure that any audience that watches Agents of SHIELD but doesn't watch the majority of MCU movies is so small it's negligible. The other way around it's a much trickier proposition: it's easier to get people to commit to watching 2-3 films a year than it is to get those same people to commit to several multi-season TV shows. People have time to fit in a movie every few months; series are much more of a commitment because they take more time. Added to which, the international audience might not all have regular or easy access to the series they're most interested in; for instance, I would have to get the DVDs to watch Agents of SHIELD or Agent Carter in the original. So, if someone like me watches the films and gets the impression that they have to watch at least some of the series in order to get the most from the latest movie, it doesn't take much for them to feel alienated.
Yeah, it is easier on the movie side. However, this still is something which the tv side should be able to exploit at least more than they re doing now as I explained upthread.
Marvel has made it a high priority to build that negligible audience for years now, on multiple fronts (Netflix, ABC, Freeform, Hulu). If they didn't think chasing after the tv audiences was worth it they wouldn't be doing gangbusters like that - all I'm suggesting is by increasing that audience by adding more of a crossover elements - something which is not impossible though difficult. Especially with factions rather than individual characters from movies, they've made this work brilliantly on AoS with HYDRA.
Series being more of a commitment doesn't necessarily mean they can't boost those numbers temporarily or increase their audience from their movie side - having a tv character mention Cap isn't going to move that needle, having Cap personally appear for an episode will. Besides, people start watching tv series all the time, especially when they're popular or they have episodes with something worth their attention. Those appearances would act as hooks for people who only stick to certain parts of the MCU, or the movies - as long as they have reason too and Marvel hasn't really given them much reason to do this. This hurts their tv side credibility if the movie division implies or overtly acts like they are irrelevant. Why would they watch something that may as well not be in that universe?
Streaming sites make international access less of a barrier, this is only going to get easier over the years.
My whole point is for Marvel to get the point across to that audience to not be alienated by this, which is possible to do. This will be difficult and require a bit more hard work and coordination, but they're already doing similar things like that on the movie side anyway - they're merely keeping it in-house. They don't need to make this the top priority, only a high priority. Work together as a team, rather than apart. Feeling alienated is less of an issue if they had something or someone they identified with and knew about from the movies, this would be where the guest appearances would pull them in. They may not know anything about daredevil, they know everything about Captain America.
Another is: you seem to think that it's easily done to get Cap (or whoever else) to show up in an episode or two of one of the TV shows. I may be wrong here, but most movie stars won't just do such appearances. They might do stuff that's seen as prestige TV, they might do HBO series or something like Twin Peaks, they might even have a big part in one of the Netflix series, but that's different from a guest spot on an ABC show. Their agents wouldn't want them to do it. You might very occasionally manage to get someone like Samuel L. Jackson for a guest appearance, but that's a huge exception.
On the contrary it is not easy, but they lose nothing by trying to get them to play ball. And they have money to burn to get them in line and find ways to prioritize scheduling so this is smoother. Yeah, this will be difficult, not impossible.
The lines between movies and tv are blurred these days, it isn't like the old days anymore where movie stars appearing on a tv show was career suicide. That's been over for quote a long time now. Marvel has less barriers with this since they are literally playing in their own backyard with this, too. They are the connection between all the divisions, as well as the fact they do employ tv actors on their roster RE: the actresses who are Sharon Carter and Sif. IIRC the main reason Colby Smulders didn't become a regular on AoS after her show ended was due to her wanting to be with her family who live away from their sets, otherwise she'd be there by now. Sif would be, too, but she's already a lead on Blindspot so I can understand why that's difficult for (semi-)regular appearances.
Yes, their Netflix branch should be a hook for these actors - the question is, why isn't it?
Their agents may not want them to do it but if Marvel provides enough financial and scheduling incentive this would be less of an issue. They don't have an excuse for this anymore since they have more money than god now to do it. Plus, they can add these stipulations in their contracts from now on.
edit: The biggest hurdle is the political tensions between Perlmutter and Feige, and whatever is going on under Loeb's watch on the tv division between those companies doing tv shows. Get those sorted out, and this becomes less of an issue to get done right.
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
I could see this working extremely well in a Deadpool movie, or the like.
At some point Deadpool would have to interact with it. Maybe keep making references during a fight and using the pop ups to hit people.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
*Watch Agents of SHIELD season 4! ~Ed
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
I could see this working extremely well in a Deadpool movie, or the like.
At some point Deadpool would have to interact with it. Maybe keep making references during a fight and using the pop ups to hit people.
I liked the Deadpool movie but was disappointed he didn't use subtitles from when someone wasn't speaking English to kill someone.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I've been rewatching Luke Cage. It hasn't made me like it anymore, or dislike it really. It's not as jarring / abrupt as other things going on lately.
Marvel has the excuse that they don't give a shit and have no reason to.
AoS is an experiment that basically failed because the show sucked and didn't become a huge smash hit and so they basically shrugged and let it keep going as long as it's profitable but they don't really give a shit about it.
Netflix is still doing it's thing and I'm not sure what they think of it overall but they seem ok with it existing at least. Pretty much the same for the rest of the stuff coming down the pipe too. It's there, it makes money, why the fuck not I guess.
But the point is that all of this is viewed the way tie-in comics and books and all that shit are for any property. It's a way to make more money off your fans and ultimately the people making the core product, the MCU, are gonna do what they are gonna do and the tie-in stuff doesn't matter to that.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
AoS is an experiment that basically failed because the show sucked and didn't become a huge smash hit and so they basically shrugged and let it keep going as long as it's profitable but they don't really give a shit about it.
AoS is an experiment that basically failed because the show sucked and didn't become a huge smash hit and so they basically shrugged and let it keep going as long as it's profitable but they don't really give a shit about it.
Are we talking about the same thing?
Is there another show called Agents of Shield I'm unaware of?
It began with huge ratings, as you'd expect given where it was coming from, and then just dropped like a stone cause it was shit and since then has maintained respectable enough to stay alive ratings with a steady decline over time you expect from this type of show.
But the point is that they wanted MCU on TV to try and expand their media franchise power and AoS simply doesn't pull the numbers or cultural cache for that. So it's basically just something that ABC keeps around cause it's profitable and that Disney doesn't concern itself with too much.
My assumption has been that AoS is a fairly cost effective way to keep a regular weekly (for the season) reminder that the MCU is out there, hey there's that guy a bunch of fans love, oh they referenced a movie obliquely, tune in next week for more Fitzsimmons.
If the viewer base drops enough I imagine it'll end like anything else, but while the ratings aren't great (and that's being generous), saying it's "failed" is kind of bizarre when the last season ranged from (imo) "okay and pretty good" to "did not expect this level of quality" and even great. Again, entirely subjective opinion there.
It's somewhat hamstrung by being on cable (as opposed to what Netflix gets away with), but if 88 episodes in the can and another season lined up is a 'failure', I'm okay with that. Maybe next season will end up being the last one. Maybe Disney/Marvel decide that they don't really give a shit about the numbers yet.
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This is not pedantry, words mean things, we're not savages
Not all directors cuts are shorter RE: Batman vs Superman.
Also, on some research, apparently the alternate cut of Caligula managed to be 19 minutes longer than the original, despite cutting like an hour and a half of hardcore pornography shot on the same set with a different crew. I guess the title role and all the big name actors were basically left on the cutting room floor because the director wanted "orgy of power" but the editor preferred "power of orgy."
This would be because Scott was forced by the studios to change the films before release, against his wishes.
Generally speaking, when a director is forced to change the film against their will, that means a director's cut will turn out to be superior.
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When my autistic son likes a movie, he wants to go over and over again. Our record is seeing Minions in the theater 19 times.
Still sucks they couldn't give a shout-out to the Netflixverse or the Shieldverse.
Although why the obvious CG seagulls?
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Marvel doesn't even do that and this was half a Sony movie so zero chance of that happening.
Which now is somewhat a different set of shame-of-yous
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
If Marvel wanted to do that what was Sony going to do? They need Marvel more than Marvel needs them.
1. It's heavily implied in the shared universe concept. It's like in the comics if the FF suddenly stopped referencing mutants as a thing.
2. They've done the opposite, actually. While no one truly knows what's going on behind the scenes for this, it can be read as political infighting. This gets twice as weird when the entire tv branch does that to each section of itself.
For good reason.
What is that analogy?
It's more like having a kid and they grow up and you refuse to speak to them or about them. That kid is better and more interesting than you, I might add. The Netflixverse at least, although Shield has had really good moments on par with the movies.
Also, they never explicitly stated they would reference the shows, but seeing as they are in the same universe, and in this case, the same city, you would think something would have been said about the bombings, shootings, mind control, a big recorded fight in Harlem (which used equipment from a company in Iron Man 2) and the fact that Spider-Man isn't the first hero that is local to New York.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
It might be kind of fun to see a little pop-up bubble on the corner of the screen when the AoS team shows up and mentions Ghost Rider or The Framework.
I like that Daredevil is relatively fragile compared to most supers. And while he isn't flipping around with his baton quite like the comics, it makes him feel more relatable than Iron Man's CGI armor set.
This isn't something which is impossible to accomplish, and actually getting everyone on board to have the basics that x is happening or is a Thing would go along way. Even a guest appearance would be ok, this goes double for the tv division within its own mini-universe. The movies wouldn't lose anything by having someone say, or notice something relevant to the plot, that Inhumans exist for instance.
The hard part would be the scheduling and getting everyone on board with at least the basics of how the universe works, but that's something they're doing anyway with their own movies on the movie side so it;s not like they don't have experience with this.
They also must decide whether this is a shared universe or not. If it's not then don't stake their brand on it, or they'll risk upsetting their audience.
This is a strange defense given that the tv branch makes overt ties to the movies because they think they're important to get the viewers hooked. Yet this sentiment isn't shared by their comrades on the movie side?
For the record, I'd like there to be more of a sense of connection than there currently is, but I absolutely understand why they err on the side of caution.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I cant tell you how much i love this idea.
Unfortunately, since most of the veiwing audience arent comic book readers, i worry the sheer awesomeness would go over their heads.
As an aside, I remember reading a bunch of old comics when I was a kid, and plenty of them had little bubbles declaring "*AS SEEN IN ISSUE XX OF _______, 'NUFF SAID!" and I kept thinking "who the hell is this 'Nuff' person, and why should I give a crap what they said?!"
Eventually all became so much clearer...
That would annoy me so much. I don't want to be distracted/pulled out of the movie by what amounts to a pop-up ad.
It could make for a fine DVD extra, though.
This it's not just about people who watch all of it, while the movies would have the most viewers and crossover not everyone who watches the tv shows watches all the tv shows or the movies - and yet they continue to make references to the movies above all else without alienating these people.
Nor does this have to be something which is alienating, this is an opportunity to get them to see watch the tv shows or whatever - but they need to do it correctly, which is in their power to do so. Its all about how they'd reference Inhumans, too. Make it basic, they don't need to go into detail or anything or have an Inhuman show up or something. This gets even easier with characters like Kingpin - introduce him into a Spider-man movie as a powerful crime boss who got thrown in prison by this weird vigilante with horns on his head. Make them plot relevant, or something which will entice the audience to explore further. They've got plenty of material to do that with, as well as being able to consult the people who make those shows and the actors themselves.
Nor does this have to be only in films, have Cap show up in an episode or two of a tv show. I'd think the movie audience would be drawn to his appearance their and thus can be hooked on said show when they previously didn't. Especially with well known characters in the films who have disappeared without a trace like Sif and the Warriors Three.
The Kree have been introduced into the movies, as well. An excellent plot device to talk about Inhumans. "These evil blue aliens came to earth millenia ago and created Inhumans." Done. If it's relevant to the conversation go a bit deeper later on with their link. Keep it short, precise and easy to follow and relevant to the movie in question.
Having elements from various tv shows and movies (like Kree and Inhumans) appearing in all over the MCU, getting the audiences familiar with them as well as providing extra time to fill in the blanks and do other stuff with them related to the plots of episodes so they're not shoehorned in. Get the audience hungry for more, and thirsting to discover more about where they came from and what they showed up in.
Get the Defenders to show up in other tv shows, and vice versa. Make this a regular thing whether it's a short cameo, a minor reference only a Marvel fan will know (they do this already in Marvel films, the general audience were not alienated when Marvel threw in the Celestials for a couple scenes in GOTG which were crazy and never mentioned again).
Don't over do it, do it smartly, expand them into plot points and ways to increase depth into the movies/shows - in a way AoS did this with Ghost Rider.
Tv's format is an edge with this sort of thing, since they can dedicate an episode or more to this person/species unlike movies.
Marvel's actually quite good at doing this when they try, this is partly why their films feel like a universe to to their movie audience. That risk paid off big time, so why not let the tv side get in on that action?
Is this a cinematic universe or not? If not, officially shunt off the tv branch from the movie branch and get it over with.
edit: SHIELD itself would have the smoothest hook, everyone already knows who they are and what they do as an organization. Hold off Coulson until he's revealed to be alive in an actual movie, though.
I could see this working extremely well in a Deadpool movie, or the like.
Deadpool himself telling the audience would be better.
Rarely do i say this Harry but I agree with everything in your post. Furthermore, what you described is exactly what comics have been doing for ages. Done smartly, embracing this aspect of their shared universe would pay off both critically and financially, and Marvel has my vote of confidence they could pull it off.
Nah, doesn't even really need anything said, it can be akin to ... Christine Everhart at WHiH playing in the background on a tv set, don't even have to hear it, some plucky fan will screen cap it and it will become an easter egg. That's all the connective tissue the MCU needs to the Netflix stuff. The ideal though would be like how in the comics, the Infinity War seemed to include damn well near everyone in it. It was a crazy huge cross over IIRC.
A reminder for some, WHiH Newsfront was some very cool promotional stuff, a youtube, twitter, and google+ that had this classic:
WHiH has also appeared in SHIELD and the Netflix shows.
So, the medium for the message of easter eggs already exists, like a poster with Stan Lee's face on it in the background of a Luke Cage shot.
There is already a ton of easter eggs through out the Marvel stuff as it is, this would just be more of that.
One is that getting the TV audience to care about the movies is much easier, because most likely it's already the case. The TV shows came about *because* of the movies. I'm pretty sure that any audience that watches Agents of SHIELD but doesn't watch the majority of MCU movies is so small it's negligible. The other way around it's a much trickier proposition: it's easier to get people to commit to watching 2-3 films a year than it is to get those same people to commit to several multi-season TV shows. People have time to fit in a movie every few months; series are much more of a commitment because they take more time. Added to which, the international audience might not all have regular or easy access to the series they're most interested in; for instance, I would have to get the DVDs to watch Agents of SHIELD or Agent Carter in the original. So, if someone like me watches the films and gets the impression that they have to watch at least some of the series in order to get the most from the latest movie, it doesn't take much for them to feel alienated.
Another is: you seem to think that it's easily done to get Cap (or whoever else) to show up in an episode or two of one of the TV shows. I may be wrong here, but most movie stars won't just do such appearances. They might do stuff that's seen as prestige TV, they might do HBO series or something like Twin Peaks, they might even have a big part in one of the Netflix series, but that's different from a guest spot on an ABC show. Their agents wouldn't want them to do it. You might very occasionally manage to get someone like Samuel L. Jackson for a guest appearance, but that's a huge exception.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Yeah, it is easier on the movie side. However, this still is something which the tv side should be able to exploit at least more than they re doing now as I explained upthread.
Marvel has made it a high priority to build that negligible audience for years now, on multiple fronts (Netflix, ABC, Freeform, Hulu). If they didn't think chasing after the tv audiences was worth it they wouldn't be doing gangbusters like that - all I'm suggesting is by increasing that audience by adding more of a crossover elements - something which is not impossible though difficult. Especially with factions rather than individual characters from movies, they've made this work brilliantly on AoS with HYDRA.
Series being more of a commitment doesn't necessarily mean they can't boost those numbers temporarily or increase their audience from their movie side - having a tv character mention Cap isn't going to move that needle, having Cap personally appear for an episode will. Besides, people start watching tv series all the time, especially when they're popular or they have episodes with something worth their attention. Those appearances would act as hooks for people who only stick to certain parts of the MCU, or the movies - as long as they have reason too and Marvel hasn't really given them much reason to do this. This hurts their tv side credibility if the movie division implies or overtly acts like they are irrelevant. Why would they watch something that may as well not be in that universe?
Streaming sites make international access less of a barrier, this is only going to get easier over the years.
My whole point is for Marvel to get the point across to that audience to not be alienated by this, which is possible to do. This will be difficult and require a bit more hard work and coordination, but they're already doing similar things like that on the movie side anyway - they're merely keeping it in-house. They don't need to make this the top priority, only a high priority. Work together as a team, rather than apart. Feeling alienated is less of an issue if they had something or someone they identified with and knew about from the movies, this would be where the guest appearances would pull them in. They may not know anything about daredevil, they know everything about Captain America.
On the contrary it is not easy, but they lose nothing by trying to get them to play ball. And they have money to burn to get them in line and find ways to prioritize scheduling so this is smoother. Yeah, this will be difficult, not impossible.
The lines between movies and tv are blurred these days, it isn't like the old days anymore where movie stars appearing on a tv show was career suicide. That's been over for quote a long time now. Marvel has less barriers with this since they are literally playing in their own backyard with this, too. They are the connection between all the divisions, as well as the fact they do employ tv actors on their roster RE: the actresses who are Sharon Carter and Sif. IIRC the main reason Colby Smulders didn't become a regular on AoS after her show ended was due to her wanting to be with her family who live away from their sets, otherwise she'd be there by now. Sif would be, too, but she's already a lead on Blindspot so I can understand why that's difficult for (semi-)regular appearances.
Yes, their Netflix branch should be a hook for these actors - the question is, why isn't it?
Their agents may not want them to do it but if Marvel provides enough financial and scheduling incentive this would be less of an issue. They don't have an excuse for this anymore since they have more money than god now to do it. Plus, they can add these stipulations in their contracts from now on.
edit: The biggest hurdle is the political tensions between Perlmutter and Feige, and whatever is going on under Loeb's watch on the tv division between those companies doing tv shows. Get those sorted out, and this becomes less of an issue to get done right.
At some point Deadpool would have to interact with it. Maybe keep making references during a fight and using the pop ups to hit people.
I liked the Deadpool movie but was disappointed he didn't use subtitles from when someone wasn't speaking English to kill someone.
Best moment is still Method Man's cameo.
AoS is an experiment that basically failed because the show sucked and didn't become a huge smash hit and so they basically shrugged and let it keep going as long as it's profitable but they don't really give a shit about it.
Netflix is still doing it's thing and I'm not sure what they think of it overall but they seem ok with it existing at least. Pretty much the same for the rest of the stuff coming down the pipe too. It's there, it makes money, why the fuck not I guess.
But the point is that all of this is viewed the way tie-in comics and books and all that shit are for any property. It's a way to make more money off your fans and ultimately the people making the core product, the MCU, are gonna do what they are gonna do and the tie-in stuff doesn't matter to that.
Is there another show called Agents of Shield I'm unaware of?
It began with huge ratings, as you'd expect given where it was coming from, and then just dropped like a stone cause it was shit and since then has maintained respectable enough to stay alive ratings with a steady decline over time you expect from this type of show.
But the point is that they wanted MCU on TV to try and expand their media franchise power and AoS simply doesn't pull the numbers or cultural cache for that. So it's basically just something that ABC keeps around cause it's profitable and that Disney doesn't concern itself with too much.
If the viewer base drops enough I imagine it'll end like anything else, but while the ratings aren't great (and that's being generous), saying it's "failed" is kind of bizarre when the last season ranged from (imo) "okay and pretty good" to "did not expect this level of quality" and even great. Again, entirely subjective opinion there.
It's somewhat hamstrung by being on cable (as opposed to what Netflix gets away with), but if 88 episodes in the can and another season lined up is a 'failure', I'm okay with that. Maybe next season will end up being the last one. Maybe Disney/Marvel decide that they don't really give a shit about the numbers yet.
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