I was listening to a podcast where they said, "If you fix too much of the jank, it's no longer a Souls game." And that's about where I am right now. It looks very pretty, very fluid, and very little like Demon's Souls. Maybe if I had the controller in my hand it would feel good, but from a distance it looks like another action game wearing Demon's Souls corpse as a disguise.
+1
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I was listening to a podcast where they said, "If you fix too much of the jank, it's no longer a Souls game." And that's about where I am right now. It looks very pretty, very fluid, and very little like Demon's Souls. Maybe if I had the controller in my hand it would feel good, but from a distance it looks like another action game wearing Demon's Souls corpse as a disguise.
Basically if it doesn't have item weight and world tendency nonsense as at least an optional 'hard mode' or something, they've missed the whole point. It will probably be a good, fun game! That just has very little to do with the original.
Kinda like FF7-2.
0
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
"Oh god don't make the game GOOD, make it accurate to an outdated experience!"
No.
+11
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I get why people enjoy the older games, but there's a reason Bloodborne is the most popular and beloved of the Souls series and it isn't because of the jank, it's because the combat is well designed and the boss battles complement it.
Artificial difficulty due to poor design is why so many games from the NES era feel horrible to play now.
I love Bloodborne, but I don't want to make future Souls games into Bloodborne or Sekiro or whatever. DS3 is never going to grab me the same way Demon's and DS1 do, but I still enjoyed it. Since these games have a big online component, you can't even say 'the original still exists' when you'd be missing out on so much just breaking out the PS3. So, it would be nice to have the option to play Demon's with a little polish, better frame rate, no load times, etc. Without updates that make the game entirely different.
Not that I even have a PS4 at the moment, much less a PS5.
0
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2020
I played DS3 before DS1 and without the nostalgia, I can tell you the games do not feel good at all.
I finished 1 and 2, but I've only ever come back to 3.
And it's just my opinion I know, but there isn't a boss in 2 that competes with the likes of Gael, and his fight is only possible because the controls in DS3 are miles better than 1 or 2.
I started with 1 but didn't find going back to Demon's so bad. Though I hope they update it all the same.
Honestly I find Dark Souls 1 hardest to revisit in terms of controls because I subconsciously expect it to control like DS3.
...but then, I think BB feels worse than any of them a lot of the time because the camera is a traitor and there are doodads all over the floor for me to run into.
Kamar on
+1
Options
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
While Dark Souls is one of the few series where I can go back to the original games and enjoy them, I still consider Dark Souls 3 the better game, and Dark Souls 2 better than Dark Souls, specifically because my focus in games is control and "feel" of a game. The more janky the controls are, the worse a game is for me, and that's the beginning and end of it. Now, I know that's not everyone, but if you can take the jank out of a game, it's automatically going to be better for me. Instantly.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
Dark Souls 2 feels really awkward but it still lets me roll in all directions and has a lot of QoL stuff.
Most of why it feels awkward is the weird ass camera changes and the ugly animations rather than a problem of 'how my character moves when I push buttons' controls, though.
It's weird, I don't notice the roll direction thing at all. Maybe it's because I just block 90% of the time.
0
Options
IceBurnerIt's cold and there are penguins.Registered Userregular
edited October 2020
Oddly enough, Demon's Souls has a lot less jank, in some rather important ways, than Dark Souls.
- Your Slayer of Demons can hop up and over short obstacles/ledges that make sense by pressing the confirm key.
- Most weapons have much better movesets than in Dark Souls. The Slayer of Demons is a martially trained hero that knows how to properly use weapons, while the Chosen Undead is a complete novice, wielding most weapons with all the skill of a beanpole courier. This really affects the ease and flow of combat, making Demon's Souls far less awkward and punishing.
I'd argue that the camera clipping, enemy animations, limited roll directions, and low frame rate were the most important bits of jank in Demon's Souls, and per the videos and interview, they have been exorcised or at least mitigated:
- Optional new camera, and camera clipping seems much improved, not getting caught on level geometry or obscured by detail objects.
- Optional dynamic 4k 60fps Performance Mode (Quality Mode matches the original 30fps).
- Rolling is 8-way now.
- The animations clearly have fidelity and smoothness an order of magnitude higher than the original.
I know its reputation is pretty mixed but I like Code Vein button layout over the Souls series. And in terms of actual control quality, it's up pretty high as well.
Kamar on
0
Options
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
Dark Souls 2 feels really awkward but it still lets me roll in all directions and has a lot of QoL stuff.
Most of why it feels awkward is the weird ass camera changes and the ugly animations rather than actual control fidelity, though.
More or less any QoL improvements and control improvements in a series makes it very hard to go backwards for me to what is truly lesser. It doesn't so much matter if I like the story better or not, because the moment to moment play in almost all games I enjoy focus at least 80% of the game time on combat, world interaction/exploration, etc. So if that feels bad to be a part of, then I'm going to find it harder.
The biggest culprit of this for example is the Assassin's Creed games. I find it basically impossible to have fun playing the original at this point. I also consider the new Deus Ex games vastly better than the original.
The only games that haven't applied this is Zelda games, and even then most of the games follow this progression for me, especially the original NES game. Kingdom Hearts 3 is better than 2 is better than 1. And so on.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
Just pushing the frame rate on PS3 Demon's Souls transforms that game. Playing it at 60fps emulated was a complete game changer for me, much moreso than unlocking the frame rate in DS1.
Not sure why.
0
Options
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I love Bloodborne, but I don't want to make future Souls games into Bloodborne or Sekiro or whatever. DS3 is never going to grab me the same way Demon's and DS1 do, but I still enjoyed it. Since these games have a big online component, you can't even say 'the original still exists' when you'd be missing out on so much just breaking out the PS3. So, it would be nice to have the option to play Demon's with a little polish, better frame rate, no load times, etc. Without updates that make the game entirely different.
Not that I even have a PS4 at the moment, much less a PS5.
This is your opinion and it's valid but I seriously doubt it's a popular one. When I find myself going back a generation or so to an early installment of a franchise I tend to be disappointed. A few months back I picked up the remastered Rocksteady Arkham games on a discount. I remember really enjoying Arkham Asylum when it came out but going back to made me really miss a lot of what it's successors brought to the table.
Also, what company is going to bother with a remaster of this magnitude without also improving the gameplay? I never actually played Demon Souls and I personally am not at all interested in a next-gen facelift that's mechanically inferior to anything From has released since.
It's weird, I don't notice the roll direction thing at all. Maybe it's because I just block 90% of the time.
The vast majority of enemies and bosses in Souls games are best handled by rolling diagonally to their flank, unless they have specific punishes for that.
It makes it really awkward when you instinctively try to do that and instead go EITHER forward OR sideways. Makes unlocking even more important, which I personally hate.
+1
Options
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
It's weird, I don't notice the roll direction thing at all. Maybe it's because I just block 90% of the time.
The vast majority of enemies and bosses in Souls games are best handled by rolling diagonally to their flank, unless they have specific punishes for that.
It makes it really awkward when you instinctively try to do that and instead go EITHER forward OR sideways. Makes unlocking even more important, which I personally hate.
I literally cannot win in a Souls game or even a Souls-like game without a lock on. I am basically hopeless if I have to aim my swings independently in almost any game ever; the second best option is like Kingdom Hearts or Genshin Impact has where it just auto-targets the closest enemy for you.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I love Bloodborne, but I don't want to make future Souls games into Bloodborne or Sekiro or whatever. DS3 is never going to grab me the same way Demon's and DS1 do, but I still enjoyed it. Since these games have a big online component, you can't even say 'the original still exists' when you'd be missing out on so much just breaking out the PS3. So, it would be nice to have the option to play Demon's with a little polish, better frame rate, no load times, etc. Without updates that make the game entirely different.
Not that I even have a PS4 at the moment, much less a PS5.
This is your opinion and it's valid but I seriously doubt it's a popular one. When I find myself going back a generation or so to an early installment of a franchise I tend to be disappointed. A few months back I picked up the remastered Rocksteady Arkham games on a discount. I remember really enjoying Arkham Asylum when it came out but going back to made me really miss a lot of what it's successors brought to the table.
Also, what company is going to bother with a remaster of this magnitude without also improving the gameplay? I never actually played Demon Souls and I personally am not at all interested in a next-gen facelift that's mechanically inferior to anything From has released since.
Isn't that just what the Dark Souls remaster was, though? It didn't change the gameplay as far as I've heard.
0
Options
IceBurnerIt's cold and there are penguins.Registered Userregular
Just pushing the frame rate on PS3 Demon's Souls transforms that game. Playing it at 60fps emulated was a complete game changer for me, much moreso than unlocking the frame rate in DS1.
Not sure why.
It's most likely because your DeS character had a competent moveset with a lot less recovery time. Clunky is going to remain so no matter your framerate, while a character that competently wields everything is going to feel even more amazing at 60 fps.
The hero of DS1 was made deliberately clunky in reaction to DeS letting you get away with almost unchecked aggression. Running attacks in particular, which were amazingly quick and safe in DeS, were nerfed through the ground, right to the dragon butts of Lost Izalith for Dark Souls 1.
I still cherish DS1, but having played Demon's Souls since, I recognize the surprising amount of cruelly deliberate steps backward, almost certainly in the name of difficulty.
I was listening to a podcast where they said, "If you fix too much of the jank, it's no longer a Souls game." And that's about where I am right now. It looks very pretty, very fluid, and very little like Demon's Souls. Maybe if I had the controller in my hand it would feel good, but from a distance it looks like another action game wearing Demon's Souls corpse as a disguise.
I really dislike this mindset.
There's nothing wrong with that mindset though. The feel of a game isn't just a summation of its perfections. It's a summation of its foibles as well. It's a total experience. Some people grow to love and enjoy and even expect the foibles. They like them. They feel that they give the game character. And to them, they are not wrong.
I for one, really really really really dislike the modern colour choices in this reboot. I hate the neon greens and blues and overly bright yellows lighting up the entire map.
For many people its a nothing.
But look at the side by sides of the old white somewhat washed out lighting and it looks a lot better to me. It feels more like a ruin, a gloomy place, something covered in fog. I honestly get the impression, which you can agree with or not and it wont change my feelings on the matter, that this remake looks like a technicolor dreamhouse.
They're just going nuts with the lighting colour choices. And I don't like it.
From a modern colourists perspective, could that just be old style jank? Possibly. But I think it was better that way.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
+1
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I was listening to a podcast where they said, "If you fix too much of the jank, it's no longer a Souls game." And that's about where I am right now. It looks very pretty, very fluid, and very little like Demon's Souls. Maybe if I had the controller in my hand it would feel good, but from a distance it looks like another action game wearing Demon's Souls corpse as a disguise.
I really dislike this mindset.
There's nothing wrong with that mindset though. The feel of a game isn't just a summation of its perfections. It's a summation of its foibles as well. It's a total experience. Some people grow to love and enjoy and even expect the foibles. They like them. They feel that they give the game character. And to them, they are not wrong.
I for one, really really really really dislike the modern colour choices in this reboot. I hate the neon greens and blues and overly bright yellows lighting up the entire map.
For many people its a nothing.
But look at the side by sides of the old white somewhat washed out lighting and it looks a lot better to me. It feels more like a ruin, a gloomy place, something covered in fog. I honestly get the impression, which you can agree with or not and it wont change my feelings on the matter, that this remake looks like a technicolor dreamhouse.
They're just going nuts with the lighting colour choices. And I don't like it.
From a modern colourists perspective, could that just be old style jank? Possibly. But I think it was better that way.
Also, this recolor could definitely be seen as a direct response to people complaining about the washed out hues in DS3, as compared to the more popping colors of DS2.
So, damned if you do, damned if you don't it appears.
(I personally enjoy the more subtle stuff in DS3 and DeS original, just fyi)
jungleroomx on
0
Options
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
It's also that the colors don't bleed into each other properly.
Maybe I just don't understand how real lights work but I don't think you can get bright yellow and bright green right next to each other without some kind of overlap.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Actually...thinking about it I think I mostly just hate how my ghost character looks. Nvm.
0
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I'm also the kind of person who will jack up contrast to get harsh shadows and max out film grain so I'm probably the last person who needs to be commenting on art style
0
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Trying to remember, is the free sprint unique to Sekiro? I love the free sprint.
Sekiro has no stamina. So yes.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I mean letting you sprint in any direction, in most of the games you can only sprint forward or forward-diagonal (almost strafing but not quite) while locked on, but if I'm not mistaken you can sprint backwards in Sekiro.
0
Options
KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
I just wanted to mention the distinction again between a remaster and a remake, since there's a lot of discussions about remasters in comparison to Demon's Souls PS5. Demon's Souls PS5 is a remake, as in the game is completely rebuilt from the ground up except for Core Gameloop, AI, and maybe one or two other systems. Every other thing is completely redone. FFVIIRemake is in the name, but if it wasn't that would be considered a remake too. It's a completely different game, albeit in the same world following the same story and locations. RE2/3 are remakes, completely rebuilt. Same with Bluepoint's Shadow of the Colossus
The Arkham collection, those are remasters. Dark Souls 1 was remastered. Funny enough, FFVII also has a remaster when the original was ported to PC and PS4. A remaster takes the same game and throws a wrapper on it for better performance, better graphics, or better accessibility. Sometimes they change or add one or two gameplay things, but in general the game is almost identical.
I think it is actually unfair to compare remastered games against Demon's Souls PS5. They are completely different beasts, and for all intents and purposes, this is a completely new game.
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited October 2020
I don't think there is confusion on what constitutes a remake or a remaster so much as a disagreement on what is desired from this particular re-release. Reynold wants a traditional remaster whereas I (and others) think a gameplay overhaul that tends to come from a remake is warranted.
Yes the Arkham re-release is a remaster and my experience with it made me miss the quality improvements that developer has made since Asylum. So I think a full gameplay overhaul of DeS (an even older game) makes much more sense than just a visual update.
Posts
Here's an interview with the Game Director where he gives a lot of good info on settings and extras in the remake:
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
I really dislike this mindset.
It looks basically the same as Demon's just with a different camera and better graphics.
Things like the infinite stamina and falling six million feet without dying is just bullshit for the demonstration.
Kinda like FF7-2.
No.
Artificial difficulty due to poor design is why so many games from the NES era feel horrible to play now.
Also give me 8-direction locked on dodge roll and maybe tweak the HA/Poise system some.
Oh man, you think they're going to fix bugs like the cracked talisman?
Not that I even have a PS4 at the moment, much less a PS5.
I finished 1 and 2, but I've only ever come back to 3.
And it's just my opinion I know, but there isn't a boss in 2 that competes with the likes of Gael, and his fight is only possible because the controls in DS3 are miles better than 1 or 2.
Honestly I find Dark Souls 1 hardest to revisit in terms of controls because I subconsciously expect it to control like DS3.
...but then, I think BB feels worse than any of them a lot of the time because the camera is a traitor and there are doodads all over the floor for me to run into.
8-directional rolls (already in)
make the upgrade system not horrible
make the dragons less annoying
Most of why it feels awkward is the weird ass camera changes and the ugly animations rather than a problem of 'how my character moves when I push buttons' controls, though.
- Your Slayer of Demons can hop up and over short obstacles/ledges that make sense by pressing the confirm key.
- Most weapons have much better movesets than in Dark Souls. The Slayer of Demons is a martially trained hero that knows how to properly use weapons, while the Chosen Undead is a complete novice, wielding most weapons with all the skill of a beanpole courier. This really affects the ease and flow of combat, making Demon's Souls far less awkward and punishing.
I'd argue that the camera clipping, enemy animations, limited roll directions, and low frame rate were the most important bits of jank in Demon's Souls, and per the videos and interview, they have been exorcised or at least mitigated:
- Optional new camera, and camera clipping seems much improved, not getting caught on level geometry or obscured by detail objects.
- Optional dynamic 4k 60fps Performance Mode (Quality Mode matches the original 30fps).
- Rolling is 8-way now.
- The animations clearly have fidelity and smoothness an order of magnitude higher than the original.
PSN: theIceBurner, IceBurnerEU, IceBurner-JP | X-Link Kai: TheIceBurner
Dragon's Dogma: 192 Warrior Linty | 80 Strider Alicia | 32 Mage Terra
More or less any QoL improvements and control improvements in a series makes it very hard to go backwards for me to what is truly lesser. It doesn't so much matter if I like the story better or not, because the moment to moment play in almost all games I enjoy focus at least 80% of the game time on combat, world interaction/exploration, etc. So if that feels bad to be a part of, then I'm going to find it harder.
The biggest culprit of this for example is the Assassin's Creed games. I find it basically impossible to have fun playing the original at this point. I also consider the new Deus Ex games vastly better than the original.
The only games that haven't applied this is Zelda games, and even then most of the games follow this progression for me, especially the original NES game. Kingdom Hearts 3 is better than 2 is better than 1. And so on.
Not sure why.
This is your opinion and it's valid but I seriously doubt it's a popular one. When I find myself going back a generation or so to an early installment of a franchise I tend to be disappointed. A few months back I picked up the remastered Rocksteady Arkham games on a discount. I remember really enjoying Arkham Asylum when it came out but going back to made me really miss a lot of what it's successors brought to the table.
Also, what company is going to bother with a remaster of this magnitude without also improving the gameplay? I never actually played Demon Souls and I personally am not at all interested in a next-gen facelift that's mechanically inferior to anything From has released since.
The vast majority of enemies and bosses in Souls games are best handled by rolling diagonally to their flank, unless they have specific punishes for that.
It makes it really awkward when you instinctively try to do that and instead go EITHER forward OR sideways. Makes unlocking even more important, which I personally hate.
I literally cannot win in a Souls game or even a Souls-like game without a lock on. I am basically hopeless if I have to aim my swings independently in almost any game ever; the second best option is like Kingdom Hearts or Genshin Impact has where it just auto-targets the closest enemy for you.
Isn't that just what the Dark Souls remaster was, though? It didn't change the gameplay as far as I've heard.
The hero of DS1 was made deliberately clunky in reaction to DeS letting you get away with almost unchecked aggression. Running attacks in particular, which were amazingly quick and safe in DeS, were nerfed through the ground, right to the dragon butts of Lost Izalith for Dark Souls 1.
I still cherish DS1, but having played Demon's Souls since, I recognize the surprising amount of cruelly deliberate steps backward, almost certainly in the name of difficulty.
PSN: theIceBurner, IceBurnerEU, IceBurner-JP | X-Link Kai: TheIceBurner
Dragon's Dogma: 192 Warrior Linty | 80 Strider Alicia | 32 Mage Terra
There's nothing wrong with that mindset though. The feel of a game isn't just a summation of its perfections. It's a summation of its foibles as well. It's a total experience. Some people grow to love and enjoy and even expect the foibles. They like them. They feel that they give the game character. And to them, they are not wrong.
I for one, really really really really dislike the modern colour choices in this reboot. I hate the neon greens and blues and overly bright yellows lighting up the entire map.
For many people its a nothing.
But look at the side by sides of the old white somewhat washed out lighting and it looks a lot better to me. It feels more like a ruin, a gloomy place, something covered in fog. I honestly get the impression, which you can agree with or not and it wont change my feelings on the matter, that this remake looks like a technicolor dreamhouse.
They're just going nuts with the lighting colour choices. And I don't like it.
From a modern colourists perspective, could that just be old style jank? Possibly. But I think it was better that way.
Also, this recolor could definitely be seen as a direct response to people complaining about the washed out hues in DS3, as compared to the more popping colors of DS2.
So, damned if you do, damned if you don't it appears.
(I personally enjoy the more subtle stuff in DS3 and DeS original, just fyi)
Maybe I just don't understand how real lights work but I don't think you can get bright yellow and bright green right next to each other without some kind of overlap.
Actually...thinking about it I think I mostly just hate how my ghost character looks. Nvm.
Its also a fight that can't exist in previous titles because the controls don't stack up, is what im getting at.
Sekiro has no stamina. So yes.
This, so much this.
That's character entering your virtual body that is.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I mean letting you sprint in any direction, in most of the games you can only sprint forward or forward-diagonal (almost strafing but not quite) while locked on, but if I'm not mistaken you can sprint backwards in Sekiro.
The Arkham collection, those are remasters. Dark Souls 1 was remastered. Funny enough, FFVII also has a remaster when the original was ported to PC and PS4. A remaster takes the same game and throws a wrapper on it for better performance, better graphics, or better accessibility. Sometimes they change or add one or two gameplay things, but in general the game is almost identical.
I think it is actually unfair to compare remastered games against Demon's Souls PS5. They are completely different beasts, and for all intents and purposes, this is a completely new game.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
Yes the Arkham re-release is a remaster and my experience with it made me miss the quality improvements that developer has made since Asylum. So I think a full gameplay overhaul of DeS (an even older game) makes much more sense than just a visual update.