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[Canadian Politics] Takin' out the trash to replace it with... whoops.

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Posts

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    I don’t get the Quebec parties being so insulated but getting a national platform like this


    I know I’m incredibly ill informed but man having Quebec centric debates seem to be the proper way of doing that

    As I understand it, the Bloc runs federal candidates in Quebec, where they can win ridings, because Quebec wants representatives for their specific jnterests, and the province is big enough that their representatives can sometimes actually have power — namely, when there's a minority government, they can sometimes swing votes and extract concessions (or support policy enthusiastically).

    It's actually kind of a fascinating situation that creates complicated political landscapes and successfully forces politicians to explicitly court Quebecois votes, which I believe enrages western Canada to no end

    What really forces politicians to court Québec, IMO, is a combination of two factors: it's the second-largest province (75 seats, more than AB, SK and MB put together) and it's a swing province (it gave a majority of seats to three different parties in the past three elections, while AB and SK have been solidly blue the entire time). There's not much the West can do about the population difference, but if they would at least entertain the option of voting for something other than straight CPC every damn time they might get something out of it. As it stands, there is no rational reason for any politician, on the left or the right, to pay any attention to them, and that's entirely their fault. Their votes are set in stone no matter what anyone does, and there are a lot more votes that can actually be competed for and won elsewhere in the country.

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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    It's similar to why Atlantic Canada gets a lot of attention in most federal elections, even while being relatively small. There are very few seats out this way that are safe for one particular party.

    shrykeAegismrondeauShadowhopeCanadianWolverine
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    I don’t get the Quebec parties being so insulated but getting a national platform like this


    I know I’m incredibly ill informed but man having Quebec centric debates seem to be the proper way of doing that

    As I understand it, the Bloc runs federal candidates in Quebec, where they can win ridings, because Quebec wants representatives for their specific jnterests, and the province is big enough that their representatives can sometimes actually have power — namely, when there's a minority government, they can sometimes swing votes and extract concessions (or support policy enthusiastically).

    It's actually kind of a fascinating situation that creates complicated political landscapes and successfully forces politicians to explicitly court Quebecois votes, which I believe enrages western Canada to no end

    What really forces politicians to court Québec, IMO, is a combination of two factors: it's the second-largest province (75 seats, more than AB, SK and MB put together) and it's a swing province (it gave a majority of seats to three different parties in the past three elections, while AB and SK have been solidly blue the entire time). There's not much the West can do about the population difference, but if they would at least entertain the option of voting for something other than straight CPC every damn time they might get something out of it. As it stands, there is no rational reason for any politician, on the left or the right, to pay any attention to them, and that's entirely their fault. Their votes are set in stone no matter what anyone does, and there are a lot more votes that can actually be competed for and won elsewhere in the country.

    Want to mentally break the average albertan?

    Tell them their vote pretty much doesn't matter Federally. People will bitch and moan about transfer payments and Quebec for hours but throw that nugget and that QC has a bigger voting bloc than the prairies as a whole including parts of BC and they just get furious.

    It's my little way to fuck with the CPC ingrained mentality.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    shrykeNova_C
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Has the bloc ever actually outlined a plan for what they would actually do if they won sovereignty?

    Like if Quebec secedes, what happens in the next 5 years or so?

    Is there some plan for making the province financially solvent?

    c6xfBLi.jpg


    Apogee
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    I don't think we should be outlawing political parties, even if they have shit ideas.

    Do I think anyone should vote for the Bloc? fuck no.

    I think the same about the PPC too though so...

    Gnome-InterruptusmrondeauZibblsnrtShadowhopeshrykeCanadianWolverine
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Huh I didn't know that Quebec was fully half ore more of all equalization money

    Magic Box
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    Gnome-InterruptusApogee
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    Has the bloc ever actually outlined a plan for what they would actually do if they won sovereignty?

    Like if Quebec secedes, what happens in the next 5 years or so?

    Is there some plan for making the province financially solvent?

    c6xfBLi.jpg


    Quebexit from before Brexit was cool.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    Has the bloc ever actually outlined a plan for what they would actually do if they won sovereignty?

    Like if Quebec secedes, what happens in the next 5 years or so?

    Is there some plan for making the province financially solvent?

    c6xfBLi.jpg

    That's basically hand-waved with "we'll use the money we currently send to Ottawa in income/sales tax to compensate for what we get from Ottawa". I cannot easily find how much Québécois pay in Federal taxes, so I have no idea if it evens out or not.

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    mrondeau
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Huh I didn't know that Quebec was fully half ore more of all equalization money

    That's a bit misleading since Québec has the largest population as well. Per capita, Québec gets less than the other provinces.

    sig.gif
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Brolo wrote: »
    Has the bloc ever actually outlined a plan for what they would actually do if they won sovereignty?

    Like if Quebec secedes, what happens in the next 5 years or so?

    Is there some plan for making the province financially solvent?

    c6xfBLi.jpg

    That's basically hand-waved with "we'll use the money we currently send to Ottawa in income/sales tax to compensate for what we get from Ottawa". I cannot easily find how much Québécois pay in Federal taxes, so I have no idea if it evens out or not.

    If it did, they would be at zero like Ontario used to be

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    I don't want to lose Quebec because it's a valuable part of Canadian culture. I'd feel the same about other provinces as well so any separatist ideas (Vancouver Island, Alberta, Quebece) always piss me off.

    Plus, if we lose Quebec where are we gonna get all our hall of fame goaltenders?

    Descendant XShadowenShadowhopeshrykeCanadianWolverine
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Huh I didn't know that Quebec was fully half ore more of all equalization money

    That's a bit misleading since Québec has the largest population as well. Per capita, Québec gets less than the other provinces.

    It's because the Quebec government managed to take Hydro Quebec out of the equalization payments. Apparently all the revenue generated is not calculated in government intake.

    Also, per capita should really not be a factor because Ontario has a larger population yet receives less than 1/3 of what Quebec does.... You guys are bad at making money essentially ;)

    PSN: Canadian_llama
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    fuck a party whose only purpose for existing is to seceed from the nation. Maybe if they cared about Canada but they don't, they're not a serious party and shouldn't be allowed to even run federally and shouldn't have a national platform. They only look sane this year due to the PPC.
    And yet there you are, making such a convincing argument for the Bloc. You, and other like you, are why the Bloc and the independentist movement exist in the first place, and why they are still getting traction.

    how in the world am I making an argument for them?

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited October 8
    I don't support separation, but I don't think it's just or right to try to quash the political movements that do support it. They absolutely have a right to campaign for independence. Questions of sovereignty are some of the most pressing and powerful political motivations that people can have. Trying to repress that is authoritarian, IMO

    they absolutely do and they should, but to have them on a federal debate, debating against other leaders who are campaigning across the entire country about issues that effect ALL canadians is insane since that is not what the bloc does or ever intends to do.

    Do we really need to waste 20 minutes of a federal debate about federal issues talking about quebec's racist shitty bill?

    Hardtarget on
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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Ironically, at least a few years ago, federal funds were a smaller part of Québec's budget than of Ontario's and Alberta. Because taxes.
    I'm not in favor of sovereignty, but despite everything, Québec would have a better time going independent than Ontario.

    Also, the Bloc is a waste of time, like the Reform party used to be, but in a democracy, wastes of time get to exist. The voters get to make that decision.
    Plus, real countries don't suppress democratic independence movements. Argue against the Bloc's positions, not its existence. It's not as if arguing against their positions is hard.

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    "In what could be the hardest hit of the debate, May concluded: “Mr. Scheer, with all due respect, you’re not going to be prime minister.” Scheer said he’d prove her wrong and she quipped back: “I’ll take bets on it right now!”"

    Oh snap.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    "In what could be the hardest hit of the debate, May concluded: “Mr. Scheer, with all due respect, you’re not going to be prime minister.” Scheer said he’d prove her wrong and she quipped back: “I’ll take bets on it right now!”"

    Oh snap.

    Way to jinx it May, no go outside spin 3 times and spit.

    And then all the other things too

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
    AridholShadowenshrykeEl Mucho
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    I don’t get the Quebec parties being so insulated but getting a national platform like this


    I know I’m incredibly ill informed but man having Quebec centric debates seem to be the proper way of doing that

    As I understand it, the Bloc runs federal candidates in Quebec, where they can win ridings, because Quebec wants representatives for their specific jnterests, and the province is big enough that their representatives can sometimes actually have power — namely, when there's a minority government, they can sometimes swing votes and extract concessions (or support policy enthusiastically).

    It's actually kind of a fascinating situation that creates complicated political landscapes and successfully forces politicians to explicitly court Quebecois votes, which I believe enrages western Canada to no end

    The Bloc should not be fucking allowed at the debates. Unless you havea party that is runnig in every riding, fuck'em

    with that said, Maxime should also have not been allowed cause y'know, he sucks.

    Shhhhh, he's draining points from the Cons.
    I don't support separation, but I don't think it's just or right to try to quash the political movements that do support it. They absolutely have a right to campaign for independence. Questions of sovereignty are some of the most pressing and powerful political motivations that people can have. Trying to repress that is authoritarian, IMO

    They totally have the right to waste everyone's time and money annnnnnd hey wait. Who is footing the bill for their pointless bullshit?

    Nosf on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    Nosf wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    I don’t get the Quebec parties being so insulated but getting a national platform like this


    I know I’m incredibly ill informed but man having Quebec centric debates seem to be the proper way of doing that

    As I understand it, the Bloc runs federal candidates in Quebec, where they can win ridings, because Quebec wants representatives for their specific jnterests, and the province is big enough that their representatives can sometimes actually have power — namely, when there's a minority government, they can sometimes swing votes and extract concessions (or support policy enthusiastically).

    It's actually kind of a fascinating situation that creates complicated political landscapes and successfully forces politicians to explicitly court Quebecois votes, which I believe enrages western Canada to no end

    The Bloc should not be fucking allowed at the debates. Unless you havea party that is runnig in every riding, fuck'em

    with that said, Maxime should also have not been allowed cause y'know, he sucks.

    Shhhhh, he's draining points from the Cons.
    I don't support separation, but I don't think it's just or right to try to quash the political movements that do support it. They absolutely have a right to campaign for independence. Questions of sovereignty are some of the most pressing and powerful political motivations that people can have. Trying to repress that is authoritarian, IMO

    They totally have the right to waste everyone's time and money annnnnnd hey wait. Who is footing the bill for their pointless bullshit?

    Since Harper eliminated the per-vote subsidy, individual donations by partisans. Same as every other party.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
    AridholShadowenshrykeCanadianWolverine
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Also, the Bloc is no more or less "pointless" than any other opposition party.

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    Zibblsnrtmrondeaushryke
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Do we really need to waste 20 minutes of a federal debate about federal issues talking about quebec's racist shitty bill?

    This might sound crazy, but I've heard some madmen suggest that things that happen in one part of the country don't always exist in pure isolation and can - hear me out here - sometimes affect other parts of the country!

    Zibblsnrt on
    mrondeauShadowenCanadianWolverine
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    It was talked about because parties need seats in Quebec to form government and Quebec voters care who is gonna "meddle" in their internal politics.
    It was relevant to talk about.


    ZibblsnrtGnome-InterruptusShadowenCanadianWolverine
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    I despise the Bloc and every kind of separatist but they have every right to exist as a federal political party, and since they are a presence in the election they have every right to be involved in the debate. Quebec has 78 ridings. That's a lot of people who see having the Bloc in a debate as very valid.

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  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    It remains wild to me that one of the biggest criticisms from the left of Justin Trudeau is that he bought and tried to force through a pipeline in a move that was meant to disproportionately benefit Alberta, ignoring indigenous rights, and the CPC is polling near 70% in this province.

    Cannot imagine why the federal government ignores us, when the CPC doesn’t need to do anything and nothing anyone else does matters.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
    ShadowhopeCanadianWolverine
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited October 9
    To make it clear, I'm not anti the bloc existing, they have every right to exist and in fact should exist.

    I simply don't think they deserve the national stage in the federal debates. Of course people in Quebec think the bloc should be in the debate, they live in Quebec! Doesn't mean I have to think that. They want to be in it? Get serious about having people run in most of the country and enacting federal policies that they think would benefit all Canadiens.

    Hardtarget on
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  • T-boltT-bolt Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    "In what could be the hardest hit of the debate, May concluded: “Mr. Scheer, with all due respect, you’re not going to be prime minister.” Scheer said he’d prove her wrong and she quipped back: “I’ll take bets on it right now!”"

    Oh snap.

    Way to jinx it May, no go outside spin 3 times and spit.

    And then all the other things too
    Well, it's in her party's best interest that the voting public is not so fearful of the prospect of the CPC forming government that the few that would vote Green pick LPC or NDP instead.

    shryke
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    T-bolt wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    "In what could be the hardest hit of the debate, May concluded: “Mr. Scheer, with all due respect, you’re not going to be prime minister.” Scheer said he’d prove her wrong and she quipped back: “I’ll take bets on it right now!”"

    Oh snap.

    Way to jinx it May, no go outside spin 3 times and spit.

    And then all the other things too
    Well, it's in her party's best interest that the voting public is not so fearful of the prospect of the CPC forming government that the few that would vote Green pick LPC or NDP instead.

    Same reason Scheer is so nice to Singh in the debates, even though we probably can't imagine all the racist epithaphs he calls him in private to Conservative loyalists. The main difference in elections between a Liberal majority and a Conservative majority is how many votes the NDP gets.

    sig.gif
    shrykeAridhol
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    To make it clear, I'm not anti the bloc existing, they have every right to exist and in fact should exist.

    I simply don't think they deserve the national stage in the federal debates. Of course people in Quebec think the bloc should be in the debate, they live in Quebec! Doesn't mean I have to think that. They want to be in it? Get serious about having people run in most of the country and enacting federal policies that they think would benefit all Canadiens.

    You have yet to articulate a coherent vision for why they should be excluded. They are running lots of candidates in the federal election and they have previous won lots of seats. What other reason do you need? The fucking Greens get to appear and those chucklefucks haven't ever managed to break 1 seat federally afaik.

    Gnome-InterruptusmrondeauShadowenCanadianWolverine
  • BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    T-bolt wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    "In what could be the hardest hit of the debate, May concluded: “Mr. Scheer, with all due respect, you’re not going to be prime minister.” Scheer said he’d prove her wrong and she quipped back: “I’ll take bets on it right now!”"

    Oh snap.

    Way to jinx it May, no go outside spin 3 times and spit.

    And then all the other things too
    Well, it's in her party's best interest that the voting public is not so fearful of the prospect of the CPC forming government that the few that would vote Green pick LPC or NDP instead.

    Same reason Scheer is so nice to Singh in the debates, even though we probably can't imagine all the racist epithaphs he calls him in private to Conservative loyalists. The main difference in elections between a Liberal majority and a Conservative majority is how many votes the NDP gets.

    Agreed, 100%. Just as a heads up though, the word you're looking for is "epithet".

    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence:
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    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.
    Richy
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    Aridhol
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too.

    They already have the CPC, though.

    TubularLuggageShadowen
  • El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    vsove wrote: »
    It remains wild to me that one of the biggest criticisms from the left of Justin Trudeau is that he bought and tried to force through a pipeline in a move that was meant to disproportionately benefit Alberta, ignoring indigenous rights, and the CPC is polling near 70% in this province.
    buy
    Cannot imagine why the federal government ignores us, when the CPC doesn’t need to do anything and nothing anyone else does matters.

    I was listening to CBC Radio this morning, and apparently the non-Liberal parties in Alberta are spinning Trudeau buying the pipeline as "Trudeau wanted to kill it so he bought it to make sure".

    Politically it turns out that buying the pipeline was a bad move almost across the board. I personally think it might have been in the best interests of the country as a whole though (sending oil via pipeline is much better in pretty much every way than sending it via train, and allows us to get a better price for the oil that we are extracting anyway), so I personally liked the move.

    mrpaku wrote: »
    my name is precisionk and i'm ten tanks

    wrath God fear traitor evil
    Gnome-InterruptusAridholshrykeShadowhope
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    ya that's basically my issue as well. Speaking of:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/a-338canada-projection-have-the-tories-blown-it-in-quebec/

    steam_sig.png
    kHDRsTc.png
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    ya that's basically my issue as well. Speaking of:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/a-338canada-projection-have-the-tories-blown-it-in-quebec/

    Jesus I did not recognize Scheer in that picture. I had to read the caption and did a double-take.

    sig.gif
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    ya that's basically my issue as well. Speaking of:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/a-338canada-projection-have-the-tories-blown-it-in-quebec/

    Jesus I did not recognize Scheer in that picture. I had to read the caption and did a double-take.

    he's the guy on the right, not the left

    :p

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Ok. Despite not liking the Bloc and what they stand for... their leaders have all been pretty baller...

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Ok. Despite not liking the Bloc and what they stand for... their leaders have all been pretty baller...


    Yeah that's great.

    He defiantly has the snark down.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
    Shadowen
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    ya that's basically my issue as well. Speaking of:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/a-338canada-projection-have-the-tories-blown-it-in-quebec/

    I was wondering why the NDP fell apart so badly in Quebec, and then I thought of that video from up thread.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    338 numbers sure are making me feel pointless about Nova Scotia. Don't get me wrong, I'll still vote, just like lots of people I know, but I'm genuinely disappointed it's looking like a tide of red once again. Lesser of two evils, perhaps, but like ... man, we can do better ... :(

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'd be far less opposed to the Bloc if they simply where a party that advocated federally for Quebec central issues. If Alberta wanted their own federal party to advocate for Alberta issues, I'd be OK with that too. I wouldn't like it, but I'd be OK with it.

    The Bloc however has, as its primary goal, the desire to sunder the country. Not to just be a federal advocate for Quebecers within Canada, but to break Canada apart. That's a huge difference to me, and a very large hurdle to get over.

    ya that's basically my issue as well. Speaking of:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/a-338canada-projection-have-the-tories-blown-it-in-quebec/

    I was wondering why the NDP fell apart so badly in Quebec, and then I thought of that video from up thread.

    Eh. My impression from living there when the surge happened was that the NDP surge in Quebec was basically a "I guess we can try this?" kind of thing because there seemed no alternatives. Impressions of the NDP MPs often seemed kind of ... like a joke? Like the narrative became that they were all a bunch of young kids no one had ever expected to win and it was all just dumb. Once the Liberals came back everyone just went back to their standard pattern. That's what I noticed anyway. Although I wasn't exactly tuned into the opinions of the quebecois fully or anything.

    mrondeau
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