Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2019
You're also gonna have to explain which of the Tory policies that the Lib Dems voted for you you would consider to be worse than Brexit.
Because if you're saying you'd prefer a Labour MP over a Lib Dem MP, you're effectively saying that Labour's party-wide tacit support for Brexit is less damaging than whatever the Lib Dems voted for.
The Lib Dems were part of a coalition and traded some of their policies getting put into law for supporting Tory policies. You can absolutely argue they shouldn't have done but they were the junior partner in a coalition and had far less power.
Yeah but whatever their reasons for supporting horrible disastrous and unfair policies, they still voted for them.
Like saying "well politics is politics" is fair and saying "yeah and I hate their politics" is also fair. Either they were stupidly misled, or actively involved (and I think they were half and half but again, lot of very chirpy support for austerity from Lib Dem MPs like Cable) but the consequence was still that the country suffered immensely and the most vulnerable parts got it hardest.
Sorry, I just don't accept "but we had to." No they didn't. They chose to. The reason why food banks use has shot up and zero hour contract abuse has shot up and community centres have closed left right and centre, and councils have no funding, and all of the horrible shit that happened since Cameron became PM, was at least in part because the LDs played midwives to it.
And all of it pales in comparison to Labour midwifing this Tory Brexit at every stage. It makes no sense you're outraged at the Lib Dems for being misguided partners in the coalition (which by the standards of the last Tory governments now seems positively Utopian) but you forgive Labour for supporting the Tories in their most destructive policy of the century of their own free will.
Who said I'd forgiven them of that? If the Tory Brexit bill had passed due to Labour rebels I'd have refused to vote Labour too, and I'd go Green. But as it happened, it didn't, and Labour Policy is 2nd ref.
I mean it almost inevitably will happen at some point now, it's just been delayed. When Boris wins his majority in the coming election and it does happen it will be Labour who made it happen. No way the Tories could have gotten this far as a minority government with an opposition that had actually opposed. If anyone else had won the leadership contest we would have had a second referendum and put this to bed months ago.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
most forget that labours planned spending before lib-con coalition had more extreme spending reductions in it than the cons actually achieved.... austerity was a universal delusion in the late 2000s
most forget that labours planned spending before lib-con coalition had more extreme spending reductions in it than the cons actually achieved.... austerity was a universal delusion in the late 2000s
Something that Ed Milliband continued and got absolutely slated for and rightly so.
most forget that labours planned spending before lib-con coalition had more extreme spending reductions in it than the cons actually achieved.... austerity was a universal delusion in the late 2000s
Didn't Swinson say recently that she'd still support austerity though? At least Labour have gotten over that delusion
most forget that labours planned spending before lib-con coalition had more extreme spending reductions in it than the cons actually achieved.... austerity was a universal delusion in the late 2000s
Yep, Gordon Brown stepped up and took the blame on Labours behalf for the 2008 global recession and promised to make penance by not spending any more money for anything. It was one of the dumbest political moves I've ever seen and is in no small part responsible for a decade of Tory government. He ceded the narrative to the Tories that they are the party of money and Labour is the party of recession.
Well, yes, but only in specific circumstances i.e. getting into power first. When the vote came up in the Commons several dozen Labour MPs voted against a second referendum and received precisely no punishment from Corbyn. The Commons had the opportunity to back a second referendum no matter who was in government and failed to do so, largely, I think, because enough Labour MPs failed to back it. The party is for a second referendum if it gets into power now but that seems unlikely (judging from polls, which can change), and it wasn't when it might have genuinely made a difference.
Labour are for shutting the stable door very firmly, but the horse has bolted and been shot, butchered and turned into glue already.
Labour has had multiple options to work towards achieving anti-Brexit goals and at every turn has refused to do so in any real way unless it meant them being in power first.
I think it's absolutely true that you wouldn't have this mess right now without both the referendum going Leave and Corbyn as Labour leader. Multiple indicative votes with no option finding a majority bespeaks an astonishing lack of leadership on all sides. May couldn't corral the ERG because they're insane. Why the fuck couldn't Corbyn convince the 50 or so Labour MP rebels to back a second referendum? I don't believe he ever really tried.
Well, yes, but only in specific circumstances i.e. getting into power first. When the vote came up in the Commons several dozen Labour MPs voted against a second referendum and received precisely no punishment from Corbyn. The Commons had the opportunity to back a second referendum no matter who was in government and failed to do so, largely, I think, because enough Labour MPs failed to back it. The party is for a second referendum if it gets into power now but that seems unlikely (judging from polls, which can change), and it wasn't when it might have genuinely made a difference.
Labour are for shutting the stable door very firmly, but the horse has bolted and been shot, butchered and turned into glue already.
Exactly. They're not pro-second referendum, they're pro unicorn deal negotiated by them. The 2nd ref is tacked on there to dupe remainers into voting for them.
I would like to see more of this sort of thing, but I suspect it'll be rare. From the Guardian blog.
The Lib Dems have confirmed they are standing aside in Beaconsfield to help Dominic Grieve, the former Tory, run as a pro-remain independent candidate. Rob Castell, the party’s former parliamentary candidate, said it was true that he would step back because of these “unprecedented times”.
Exactly. They're not pro-second referendum, they're pro unicorn deal negotiated by them. The 2nd ref is tacked on there to dupe remainers into voting for them.
I don't buy it. This presupposes that the Labour party has a clear party line that they're keeping secret, yet what Labour MPs have said over the last few months and how they have voted IMO makes a very clear case for the problem being that Labour is deeply split on the Brexit issue, not that it is underhandedly trying to dupe those in favour of Remain like a bunch of Grima Wormtongues. Labour's problem at this point isn't that they're two-faced, as far as I'm concerned, it's that they haven't proven themselves to be capable as the opposition facing a singularly idiotic government. Everything I have seen points to incompetence, not duplicity.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
i would say the material differences between current lib dem plans and conservative plans are absolutely gigantic
1) immigration policy - libs v liberal on this, tories veering into racist territory in both conception and absolutely in execution
2) spending levels. libs are currently planning spending expansion, albeit smaller than labour
3) regional devolution. libs have a pretty aggressive devo-max settlement for eg scotland and a few other jobs
4) constitutional reform (some variety of pr) and voting age lowered to 16
5) obvious differences in how social service provisions would be handled
The Lib Dems were part of a coalition and traded some of their policies getting put into law for supporting Tory policies. You can absolutely argue they shouldn't have done but they were the junior partner in a coalition and had far less power.
They had the ultimate power of not going into Coalition.
They accepted their whipping boy position so eagerly and their mewling defence of "but we were the junior partner" cuts as much ice as a soap hacksaw.
Upon signing the Coalition agreement William Hague went home and said to Ffion ‘I think I've just killed the Liberal Democrats.’ . The Conservatives could not believe the deal they got and the insane loyalty of peeps like Danny Alexander throwing himself in front of the press to deflect the blame from George Osborne onto the Lib Dems for the latest fuck the poor policy.
"Oh but the junior partner in the coalition always suffers" says some galaxy brain genius. To come up with that you'd have to ignore Scotland where a mere 3 years before the junior party in the coalition ended up with their vote 2 percentage points higher after 8 years of coalition government and it was only the senior partner getting a kicking that put them out of power.
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
the reasons the lds got fucked are much more historically contingent than that tho
1) they thought av would pay off
2) the coalition was executing unpopular policies more broadly - especially austerity - so no reflected glory
3) they ate enormous shit specifically from their base for one policy failure in particular (tuition fees)
if you grant clegg the genuine conviction that it was the right thing to do austerity because it "had to be done" - which there is every reason to grant - then it's all fairly understandable.
if you grant clegg the genuine conviction that it was the right thing to do austerity because it "had to be done" - which there is every reason to grant - then it's all fairly understandable.
sure and if you grant may the genuine conviction that we ought to chuck out the thieving foreigners sponging off the british state then the hostile environment policy is fairly understandable but that disnae make it a good thing
the reasons the lds got fucked are much more historically contingent than that tho
1) they thought av would pay off
2) the coalition was executing unpopular policies more broadly - especially austerity - so no reflected glory
3) they ate enormous shit specifically from their base for one policy failure in particular (tuition fees)
if you grant clegg the genuine conviction that it was the right thing to do austerity because it "had to be done" - which there is every reason to grant - then it's all fairly understandable.
1) they were idiots
2) only idiots would think betraying the mass of centre left voters who made up their base would ignore the whole implementing bad policies thing.
3) they were total massive fucking morons of unimaginable scale
Corbyn is promising a new deal and a referendum in six months which seem overly ambitious.
They bypass most of the egregious difficulties the Tories ran into by saying yes to "a" customs union. But yes, it still feels like an optimistic promise.
Yes if you are okay with a customs union brexit then the whole thing gets very very very very much simpler to get passed but yes it still has a high unicorn factor.
The unicorn factor comes from wanting to opt-in on the European Single Market while opting-out on freedom of movement (which is a pillar of the Single Market)
Corbyn is promising a new deal and a referendum in six months which seem overly ambitious.
They bypass most of the egregious difficulties the Tories ran into by saying yes to "a" customs union. But yes, it still feels like an optimistic promise.
Yes if you are okay with a customs union brexit then the whole thing gets very very very very much simpler to get passed but yes it still has a high unicorn factor.
Yeah but if you're OK with a Customs Union Brexit (and everything that implies) then why Brexit at all?
If Boris loses his seat, what are the odds of the next morning headline being "Dead in a Ditch?"
When does he have to declare where he's standing, I'd put money on him moving to a safer seat.
If Boris moves to a safer seat put money on a Laboir majority.
Boris is not going to switch seats. It is an utterly preposterous move that would make him look like a coward. It would destroy his mystique and send a hoard of Con voters thundering over to the Brexit Party.
Even if Johnson loses his seat, we're not rid of him. IIRC, the PM doesn't have to be a sitting MP - they just have been for the last quite a while. And we know how well established convention and norms are holding up against this lot.
Corbyn is promising a new deal and a referendum in six months which seem overly ambitious.
They bypass most of the egregious difficulties the Tories ran into by saying yes to "a" customs union. But yes, it still feels like an optimistic promise.
Yes if you are okay with a customs union brexit then the whole thing gets very very very very much simpler to get passed but yes it still has a high unicorn factor.
Yeah but if you're OK with a Customs Union Brexit (and everything that implies) then why Brexit at all?
Brexit is like the campaigns for a return to the gold standard or balanced budgets that are seen across the world. It's an attempt to destroy good governance and sound economics by knocking a big hole in the budget, fucking everything up, and delivering a propaganda victory whose failures can be blamed on enemies.
Trump also criticised Boris' deal, because they're such good friends.
Presumably it has some stipulations about not gutting our standards so we can import cheap US goods.
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Because if you're saying you'd prefer a Labour MP over a Lib Dem MP, you're effectively saying that Labour's party-wide tacit support for Brexit is less damaging than whatever the Lib Dems voted for.
It's pro 2nd Referendum
I mean it almost inevitably will happen at some point now, it's just been delayed. When Boris wins his majority in the coming election and it does happen it will be Labour who made it happen. No way the Tories could have gotten this far as a minority government with an opposition that had actually opposed. If anyone else had won the leadership contest we would have had a second referendum and put this to bed months ago.
Something that Ed Milliband continued and got absolutely slated for and rightly so.
Didn't Swinson say recently that she'd still support austerity though? At least Labour have gotten over that delusion
Yep, Gordon Brown stepped up and took the blame on Labours behalf for the 2008 global recession and promised to make penance by not spending any more money for anything. It was one of the dumbest political moves I've ever seen and is in no small part responsible for a decade of Tory government. He ceded the narrative to the Tories that they are the party of money and Labour is the party of recession.
Well, yes, but only in specific circumstances i.e. getting into power first. When the vote came up in the Commons several dozen Labour MPs voted against a second referendum and received precisely no punishment from Corbyn. The Commons had the opportunity to back a second referendum no matter who was in government and failed to do so, largely, I think, because enough Labour MPs failed to back it. The party is for a second referendum if it gets into power now but that seems unlikely (judging from polls, which can change), and it wasn't when it might have genuinely made a difference.
Labour are for shutting the stable door very firmly, but the horse has bolted and been shot, butchered and turned into glue already.
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Actions speak louder than words.
Labour has had multiple options to work towards achieving anti-Brexit goals and at every turn has refused to do so in any real way unless it meant them being in power first.
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Exactly. They're not pro-second referendum, they're pro unicorn deal negotiated by them. The 2nd ref is tacked on there to dupe remainers into voting for them.
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Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
1) immigration policy - libs v liberal on this, tories veering into racist territory in both conception and absolutely in execution
2) spending levels. libs are currently planning spending expansion, albeit smaller than labour
3) regional devolution. libs have a pretty aggressive devo-max settlement for eg scotland and a few other jobs
4) constitutional reform (some variety of pr) and voting age lowered to 16
5) obvious differences in how social service provisions would be handled
They had the ultimate power of not going into Coalition.
They accepted their whipping boy position so eagerly and their mewling defence of "but we were the junior partner" cuts as much ice as a soap hacksaw.
Upon signing the Coalition agreement William Hague went home and said to Ffion ‘I think I've just killed the Liberal Democrats.’ . The Conservatives could not believe the deal they got and the insane loyalty of peeps like Danny Alexander throwing himself in front of the press to deflect the blame from George Osborne onto the Lib Dems for the latest fuck the poor policy.
"Oh but the junior partner in the coalition always suffers" says some galaxy brain genius. To come up with that you'd have to ignore Scotland where a mere 3 years before the junior party in the coalition ended up with their vote 2 percentage points higher after 8 years of coalition government and it was only the senior partner getting a kicking that put them out of power.
That junior partner - the Lib Dems.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
1) they thought av would pay off
2) the coalition was executing unpopular policies more broadly - especially austerity - so no reflected glory
3) they ate enormous shit specifically from their base for one policy failure in particular (tuition fees)
if you grant clegg the genuine conviction that it was the right thing to do austerity because it "had to be done" - which there is every reason to grant - then it's all fairly understandable.
sure and if you grant may the genuine conviction that we ought to chuck out the thieving foreigners sponging off the british state then the hostile environment policy is fairly understandable but that disnae make it a good thing
1) they were idiots
2) only idiots would think betraying the mass of centre left voters who made up their base would ignore the whole implementing bad policies thing.
3) they were total massive fucking morons of unimaginable scale
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
The caption on the BBC website read: "A Halloween pumpkin, minus the brains".
I choose to believe that was very deliberate.
Also, has there ever been a more appropriate environment for Johnson.
Yes if you are okay with a customs union brexit then the whole thing gets very very very very much simpler to get passed but yes it still has a high unicorn factor.
I'd love to see one of them say to him, "My daddy says you're a twat."
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In 1999 the Lib Dems ran on a platform of abolishing tuition fees in Scotland.
I voted for them. When they got into power they scraped that policy.
In 2010 the Lib Dems ran on a policy of not increasing tuition fees.
I voted for them. When they got into power they scraped that policy.
Twice bitten infinity billion times shy.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Yeah but if you're OK with a Customs Union Brexit (and everything that implies) then why Brexit at all?
Can't think of a better advert for voting Labour to be honest...
Astounds me that Farage, as a political party leader is allowed to still have a radio show.
Are they a party? I forget. They might still be a company - until they run in a national election?
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When does he have to declare where he's standing, I'd put money on him moving to a safer seat.
This is quite the unexpected endorsement of Corbyn.
If Boris moves to a safer seat put money on a Laboir majority.
Boris is not going to switch seats. It is an utterly preposterous move that would make him look like a coward. It would destroy his mystique and send a hoard of Con voters thundering over to the Brexit Party.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Steam | XBL
Brexit is like the campaigns for a return to the gold standard or balanced budgets that are seen across the world. It's an attempt to destroy good governance and sound economics by knocking a big hole in the budget, fucking everything up, and delivering a propaganda victory whose failures can be blamed on enemies.
Presumably it has some stipulations about not gutting our standards so we can import cheap US goods.
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That's a poll right?
Regardless, how can Labour look at stuff like this and this "Yes, our strategy is working" ?