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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Winning The Argument Looks A Lot Like Losing

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    SporkAndrewSporkAndrew Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Blackpool South has gone to the Tories. It's been Labour since 1997 and Gordon Marsden has done a hell of a lot trying to fight Tory policies and get some attention to literally the most deprived area in the Country

    The largest High School in the area had a 12% pass rate this past year. One of the other schools can't afford to hire any more teachers because of hundreds of thousands of PFI payments every month on the new building, so they rely on supply for core subjects

    People just wanted that Brexit done and fuck everything else, I guess

    The one about the fucking space hairdresser and the cowboy. He's got a tinfoil pal and a pedal bin
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    What with the Brexit Party standing down in marginal seats, and Labour being unable to agree similar arrangements with other parties, I guess it's now the right wing who understand the benefit of collective action to achieve shared goals

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Karl wrote: »
    Karl wrote: »
    Well

    Now it's time for the excuses to stop. The country just handed Boris the majority to "get Brexit done".

    I sincerely hope he succeeds because his failure to deliver on his promises is going to fuck a large number of people.

    Well, England did. I don't believe Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Wales did.

    That's probably gonna have consequences down the line.

    There should absolutely be a re-run of the Indyref once Brexit is done.

    The Tories won't allow it, and Sturgeon won't stage a referendum if it's not legally binding. She wins either way, though, as a Tory government blocking a referendum only increases the chances of public opinion going her way in the long run. And a prospective Labour government that needs SNP support will have to agree to one if Scotland remains as bright yellow as it is now.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Yes, the only reason Corbyn was unpopular was because of shameless slander and incessant propaganda. Corbyn can never fail, he can only be betrayed.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Absalon wrote: »
    The problem is that people don't really like the idea of rolling over and going 'Well how about THIS one eh?' when people start hating your party leader because of incessant propaganda and shameless slander.

    The thing is, he can be the victim of a successful smear campaign and utterly unfit to lead, for entirely different reasons! They're not exclusive!

    Bogart wrote: »
    Corbyn can never fail, he can only be betrayed.

    I must say, I'm looking forward to watching both of your big parties spending the next five years wholly focused on the vital question of who to blame for everything. It should be quite the entertaining distraction from our own national existential horror.

    Commander Zoom on
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    BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Jesus, I hadn't realized Swinson had lost her seat!

    I'm not surprised that she lost, but I am surprised at just how much vitriol there is online for her. She always seemed relatively inoffensive to me but apparently she's made a side career of personally visiting internet commentator's houses to murder their pets.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited December 2019
    Bogart wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    I’m guessing a tomato could win against Corbyn going by this result. He needs to apologize profusely and retire.

    He will not apologize.
    He has said he will retire... just as soon as he hand-picks a successor.
    So, as another poster said, sometime in the next five years. Probably.

    Can he just hand pick a successor and that's that? Don't they have to at least have a leadership vote that the corbynites can stuff with their votes to make sure we don't get anyone viable?

    Yes, an election to select the new leader (and a new deputy leader) will take place, but Corbyn and his supporters will make sure to select one candidate from their wing and publicly bless them so the Momentum crowd know who to back, and they'll probably win against whomever the rest of the party put forward.

    The people who put Corbyn in place aren't going anywhere, and outnumber those who voted against him. They've proven to be absolutely reliable in voting lockstep for Corbyn/Momentum approved candidates for the NEC, even when the candidate is an absolute shitpile who later gets suspended for anti-semitism he's been doing for yonks.

    The real fight does indeed start now.

    How many of those people who voted in Corbyn just lost their seats?

    He's never had a majority of MPs voting for him, but they don't decide who becomes leader, the party membership does. You can't stand for leader unless a percentage of MPs back you, but Corbyn got that threshold lowered to make sure his wing of the party would be able to get someone in the running no matter what. The reason he managed to get over the threshold was MPs felt they had to broaden the debate and put in a token figure from the hard left. Lots of the MPs who put him up said later: "whoops".

    Bogart on
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    SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Whilst it is frustrating that the press in general gives Labour a much harder time (see Dianne Abbott announcing 20,000 new police officers but being shredded for messing her figures up whereas the Tories announce 20,000 officers to fawning admiration) it would help if Labour and Corbyn stopped giving them so many open goals.

    SharpyVII on
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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Absalon wrote: »
    The problem is that people don't really like the idea of rolling over and going 'Well how about THIS one eh?' when people start hating your party leader because of incessant propaganda and shameless slander.

    That’s fine, but they should like losing less. And politicians face shameless slander and incessant propaganda, it sucks but it it’s a reality now. Ultimately it doesn’t matter if Corbyn is perfect if he is unable to get elected. The job of a leader is sometimes to take responsibility for a loss even if it isn’t his fault.

    Prohass on
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    Whilst it is frustrating that the press in general gives Labour a much harder time (see Dianne Abbott announcing 20,000 new police officers but being shredded for messing her figures up whereas the Tories announce 20,000 officers to fawning admiration) it would help if Labour and Corbyn stopped giving them so many open goals.

    Pretty much. There's not much point in endlessly bleating about "media bias". The media is what it is, and the Tories will always have the advantage of not particularly worrying about their lies being called out. All other parties and their leaders need to recognize that and work with it. Finding a way to fix it is a long term deal. You need to sodding well get in power first.

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    CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Work Christmas party last night. The exits came out, and people started drinking with purpose. As a firm whose largest customer is EU-based and focused, and where all the other offices are in the EU (making those offices now better hiring choices), I think we would all have preferred a different result.

    I honestly don’t know where Labour go from here.

    On an individual level, the idea of five more years of this is exhausting. And I’m white, middle-class and relatively comfortable. I can’t imagine how it feels if you’re on benefits, disabled, or otherwise vulnerable.

    We move forward, I guess.

    When the hangover wears off, at least.

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    TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    My condolences, Britain.

    There is really nothing more I can say.

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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    If it's any consolation, we're likely going to re-elect Trump, much to the chagrin of literally anyone who isn't a complete moron.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Not a Trump thread. Sorry, but there’s only space here right now to mourn for the future of this country.

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    My first work Christmas do is this afternoon - we're eating early so there's plenty of time to drink afterwards

    I'm leaving early to avoid getting sloppy, but I imagine that there will be stories when I come in on Monday

    Working for a non-governmental department like HMRC is weirdly bubble-like, as our jobs are probably safe, but we get affected by policy just the same, and if/when the Corporation Tax rate is slashed and all the EU rules on State Aid are removed post-Brexit, there are going to be a lot of us twiddling our thumbs

    Plus all of the social stuff that will fuck up the vulnerable, so I guess I should count my blessings

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Laura Pidcock, a young MP sometimes mentioned as a possible successor, lost her seat last night, so I guess it won't be her.

    I'd guess Angela Rayner, Emily Thornberry and Keir Starmer will put their names forward at the very least, and Corbyn will back Rayner.

    I suspect if the non-Corbyn PLP are smart about it, they’ll back Starmer. He’s been a publicly visible face of a lot of the things people liked about the Corbyn project, but managed to avoid most of the blame for the scandals. Might flip enough Momentum votes to carry him over, say, Rayner - who I can’t remember actually doing anything, aside from being a loyal lieutenant.

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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    I’m guessing a tomato could win against Corbyn going by this result. He needs to apologize profusely and retire.

    He will not apologize.
    He has said he will retire... just as soon as he hand-picks a successor.
    So, as another poster said, sometime in the next five years. Probably.

    Can he just hand pick a successor and that's that? Don't they have to at least have a leadership vote that the corbynites can stuff with their votes to make sure we don't get anyone viable?

    Yes, an election to select the new leader (and a new deputy leader) will take place, but Corbyn and his supporters will make sure to select one candidate from their wing and publicly bless them so the Momentum crowd know who to back, and they'll probably win against whomever the rest of the party put forward.

    The people who put Corbyn in place aren't going anywhere, and outnumber those who voted against him. They've proven to be absolutely reliable in voting lockstep for Corbyn/Momentum approved candidates for the NEC, even when the candidate is an absolute shitpile who later gets suspended for anti-semitism he's been doing for yonks.

    The real fight does indeed start now.

    I thought Corbyn’s leftist policies were relatively popular with the electorate and especially these left-leaning forums, but that he fucked up the issue of the day wrt Brexit, and he was a standoffish and a not particularly gifted leader within the party (not helped along In that by the attempted revolts from his own parliamentarians, but also not helped along by himself either).

    Wouldn’t another leader in his ideological wheelhouse, but without his devastating administrative flaws and personal bad blood, be kind of ideal?

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    The Labour leadership election might well just end up being two people, one from the Corbyn supporters and one from those against him, because diluting either wing's vote by fielding more than one candidate will mean they lose.

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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    PantsB wrote: »
    FT data guy
    Suggests tactical Remain voting might have helped a bit but not nearly enough and that low weucation/skill working class voters were very not energized by Corbyn and Labour

    You know I read something a few days back, someone who had done a deep dive of a usually Labour stronghold in Birmingham. He mentioned how every working class voter he spoke to had switched to Tory, mostly based on highly targeted Facebook ads. Back in 2017 none of them really knew who Corbyn was. This time around they all knew him and believed he was both an IRA sympathizer and someone who was "stopping" Brexit.

    If that's the case on a larger scale then this victory was Cummings and Cambridge Analytica again.

    Facebook delenda est

    fuck gendered marketing
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Keir Starmer needs to win that Leadership Election

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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    I think Jess Philips needs to be in the running. Keir Starmer isn't going to win back these seats in the midlands and the north.

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    BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    I don't really have the sense that Jess Phillips wants to run for Labour leader, as much as I'd love to see her in the role.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    MrMister wrote: »
    I thought Corbyn’s leftist policies were relatively popular with the electorate and especially these left-leaning forums, but that he fucked up the issue of the day wrt Brexit, and he was a standoffish and a not particularly gifted leader within the party (not helped along In that by the attempted revolts from his own parliamentarians, but also not helped along by himself either).

    Wouldn’t another leader in his ideological wheelhouse, but without his devastating administrative flaws and personal bad blood, be kind of ideal?

    Maaaaaybe. Some of his policies were popular. Some of them were not (free broadband for all, the WASPI issue and a four day week don't seem to have won any votes but probably lost some), and some (his Brexit policies) were an utter disaster. They'd also be seen as the candidate who was carrying on his legacy, which might be poisonous on its own, considering how toxic the electorate seem to find him. Certainly if any such successor kept all of his old appointments I think they'd be on a hiding to nothing.

    Someone not from his wing of the party but who kept all the good policies and swept away the awful leadership team would be ideal.

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    My condolences, Britain.

    There is really nothing more I can say.

    I'm thinking of Asterix quotes..

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    If it's any consolation,

    I hate this phrase

    It is not

    It never fucking is

    fuck gendered marketing
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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Oh a whole host of absolute bellends are now MPs on the back of this Tory victory. Mark Francois was but the tip of the shitberg.

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    PerduraboPerdurabo Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    I don't really have the sense that Jess Phillips wants to run for Labour leader, as much as I'd love to see her in the role.

    In October she said she might run for leader if Labour lost, and last night she said she wants to take a role in rebuilding the party. Sir Keir Starmer isn't going to fix this. I think at the very least she'll be valuable part of the debate, even if the momentum lot hate her.

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Note to self:

    Don't be sick
    Don't be poor
    Don't be old

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    Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    Desperately looking through last night's results in the hopes of finding some good news. It feels like Zac Goldsmith losing his seat is the only small bit of consolation amongst a thoroughly depressing set of results.

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    TavTav Irish Minister for DefenceRegistered User regular
    our London office just sent out an email saying "while we're not inviting people to discuss politics, please be aware that last night's results may have an impact on our relationship with European clients going forward"

    oh you don't say

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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Desperately looking through last night's results in the hopes of finding some good news. It feels like Zac Goldsmith losing his seat is the only small bit of consolation amongst a thoroughly depressing set of results.

    Former minister Ann Widdecombe lost to a gay man, which is something.

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/12/13/ann-widdecombe-election-defeat-gay-man-luke-pollard/

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Interestingly, Labour has a majority of women MPs for the first time. 104 women to 98 men.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    The Brexit party won fuck all, which is nice. Lots of deposits lost, hopefully.

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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Desperately looking through last night's results in the hopes of finding some good news. It feels like Zac Goldsmith losing his seat is the only small bit of consolation amongst a thoroughly depressing set of results.
    Caroline Lucas (the only Green MP) kept her seat and got many more votes than last time.

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    AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    The greens did incredibly well. Apparently they had a number of close seats, and massive vote share increase.

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
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    Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    So... Realistically, we aren't going to see a non-Conservative PM again until the end of the next Government (latest 2029) because it is unprecedented for an opposition party to overturn a majority as large as this within one election cycle.

    That will result in 19 continuous years of Conservative Prime Ministers. Beating out Thatcher/Major (1979 - 1997) by a year. An entire generation will have grown up knowing nothing but the worst politics has to offer. Without a shred of optimism of a better future.

    Just... Fuck you, Corbyn. He should have stood down in 2016 when his MPs deserted him but nope. Instead, his own personal choices have lead to the very outcome he was supposedly so dedicated to stopping.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Five years is a long time in politics, and those years will see Brexit happen, and the ensuing trade negotiations start and more than likely not finish in a lot of cases. Johnson's majority rests on him keeping his promises, which seems like a particularly big ask. He can always blame it on someone else, but that may not work when he's undeniably in charge.

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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Well, Brexit is happening. No hope of stopping it now. Might as well lay back and think of England.


    ...And make damn sure BoJo gets the blame when it turns to shit.

    We may talk about Corbyn being a lukewarm remainer at best, but BoJo was the guy that pushed Brexit over the finish line back in 2016 and he is still the most ardent Brexiteer.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Great Britain, I am incredibly depressed right now, but I hope it helps that I'm depressed for your sake, since I don't even live in Britain and know this means bad times for everyone. Endure, and hope against logic for a better future regardless, eventually.

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