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[Balatro] So I'll tell you all the story about the Poker and the rougelike

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Yeah I think the game just expects you to keep certain things like that in your head

    If you accidentally copied the right card instead of the left? That's on you. If you juiced up Two Pair to be stronger than Straight, but then play a Straight? That's on you too.

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    i would like an alternate test round where you can juice certain metrics just so you can see how high you can get the number/theorycraft. make the score not count/never unlocks stuff but just let me have a much higher chance of getting the cards that I think would let me beat ante 16

    In the AMA he talks about how people have asked for a custom challenge mode. He said it wasn't likely to get a nice graphical editor but something like a sharable config file might be possible.

    When then you could use to set yourself up for silly test runs.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    They also said a mobile version is coming

    That's gonna be trouble

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I don't like that answer, personally. I get where he's coming from with the score preview, but watching players sitting with calculators or even Xcel spread sheets open is just painful. Ultimately, he made a game that includes a serious challenge mode, that he clearly wants taken seriously

    There's absolutely solutions, including showing this like a range, a floor or similar.

    And you know, just making it an advanced option that can be tuned in in the menu or similar, with repeated warnings this is not the intended play experience

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    I don't like that answer, personally. I get where he's coming from with the score preview, but watching players sitting with calculators or even Xcel spread sheets open is just painful. Ultimately, he made a game that includes a serious challenge mode, that he clearly wants taken seriously

    There's absolutely solutions, including showing this like a range, a floor or similar.

    And you know, just making it an advanced option that can be tuned in in the menu or similar, with repeated warnings this is not the intended play experience

    If you did it you'd just have it change to ???s face down jokers/Misprint like when you're playing a face down card in your hand.


    But i also agree with the dev that it would diminish the play experience. If he ever does implement it bury it in the options, only unlocks after 100 runs.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Yeah, that'd work, though i think the face-down joker mechanic is a bit daft anyway, as it's very gameable (via either recording or just slowing the game speed down).

    qpqwh69k4tbo.png

    Silly black stake win with the ghost deck. I had a hand size of... 3.

    Which didn't matter one whit, because i just played high cards or the odd pair. Mad Joker was X7 by Violet Cup. Wiped out ante 11 because it didn't have any good way to keep scaling properly - an eternal blueprint would have been a lot more useful so i could copy Madness after it went off on torn jjokerand the raw mult from level 18 high card. Oh well!

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited March 16
    Also, another point to raise vs showing score:

    The existence of scaling jokers actively fights against the game not showing you the score. Many Scaling jokers encourage spending as many hands as possible, which means being as exacting with your score as possible. Which is fine, but not having a score preview means you're shooting yourself in the foot

    Eg, this abandoned red stake deck run that went in on of all things, Straight Flushes using blackboard, Ride the bus and Constellation to scale.

    sq4igan55maj.png

    I'd also argue that if you're going for just beating ante 8, rather than Rube Golberg Machine of Complexity, score showing gets that much more important because it becomes a much more exacting (and honestly, interesting) game - rather than a vibes based "Did i luck into the right combo of wacky cards" if you just want to see some Es in your score. Which like more power to you if that's your jam, but it's not that interesting (to me at least).

    Oh well, hopefully mod support will mean we get a good calculator mod and i can just grouse about it anyway =D

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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited March 16
    Aaaaaaargh!

    Had a run that was very much on track for cracking the $400 unlock get hit by the [most played hand] loses all your money boss, when I had no viable strategy outside that hand and no boss re-roll. Anaglyph deck (get a double tag after each boss) seems pretty good for trying to brute force that unlock. Don’t skip any blinds until you’ve got a huge stack of double tags and money making tag comes up.

    Jam Warrior on
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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    I have decided to get the abandoned deck through all the stakes as well for a fun challenge. Early into a run I get a legendary joker card! It is a new one! It is Triboulet*...

    This fucking game has jokes.

    *Played kings and queens give *2 multi.

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    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    Prepare to see the "face cards give chips", "face cards give mult", "face cards retrigger" jokers A LOT!
    And you'll never get a "face cards get debuffed" boss blind ever again with that deck (just joking).
    The "why does this happen to this deck" is strong with this deck.

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited March 16
    Prepare to see the "face cards give chips", "face cards give mult", "face cards retrigger" jokers A LOT!
    And you'll never get a "face cards get debuffed" boss blind ever again with that deck (just joking).
    The "why does this happen to this deck" is strong with this deck.

    I always try and take the boss blind reroll voucher if at all possible. There are just too many boss blinds that can hard counter decks and very few decks that can’t be hard countered.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t always show up.

    joshofalltrades on
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Prepare to see the "face cards give chips", "face cards give mult", "face cards retrigger" jokers A LOT!
    And you'll never get a "face cards get debuffed" boss blind ever again with that deck (just joking).
    The "why does this happen to this deck" is strong with this deck.

    I always try and take the boss blind reroll voucher if at all possible. There are just too many boss blinds that can hard counter decks and very few decks that can’t be hard countered.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t always show up.

    I have literally never used because when I do have it I either don't have enough money or have forgotten that it's an option. I've lost several runs to bosses I could have rerolled. One of these days ...

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Prepare to see the "face cards give chips", "face cards give mult", "face cards retrigger" jokers A LOT!
    And you'll never get a "face cards get debuffed" boss blind ever again with that deck (just joking).
    The "why does this happen to this deck" is strong with this deck.

    Oh I am deep into it which makes the heart break even more real. I am on orange stakes so was thrilled to see it. This is the second time the legendary joker has fucked with me in this specific way. The first one I got was "Destroy a face card for X1" which technically could have worked for me at least. I won that run ultimately so was less salty. Predictably the last 2 stakes before gold have gotten slightly grindy, but I will break through soon I think. I have had a couple of near misses that failed because I cannot get a scaling +multi and a xmulti joker in the same run right now.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Prepare to see the "face cards give chips", "face cards give mult", "face cards retrigger" jokers A LOT!
    And you'll never get a "face cards get debuffed" boss blind ever again with that deck (just joking).
    The "why does this happen to this deck" is strong with this deck.

    I always try and take the boss blind reroll voucher if at all possible. There are just too many boss blinds that can hard counter decks and very few decks that can’t be hard countered.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t always show up.

    I'm finding that's less true the more I play, but it's one of those things the game heavily obscures. If your points are all coming from scoring cards - Hack, Red Seal or similar, it's very easy to get blown out by boss blinds. If your points are all coming from jokers that don't care which hand you're playing, or only care in a vague sense (Supernova, Burnout, etc) then you're only really concerned if it's things like The Needle

    I'm finding with the current state of balance Black Stake is about right for me. Anything higher and it feels too random.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    If you think that the face down boss blind is cheeseable because you can just screen record, that seems beyond the scope of the game.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited March 16
    If you think that the face down boss blind is cheeseable because you can just screen record, that seems beyond the scope of the game.

    Screen recording just makes it obvious, it's cheeseable simply by setting the game speed to slow, or even having a good eye & memory for these things. The challenge it's presenting is one that's easily subverted, and mostly a question of accessibility (since the better you are at that sort of moment to moment recall, the easier the challenge its obviated).

    Something like forced card select or random joker disabled present more significant and interesting to overcome challenges that can't simply be defeated by having a good short term memory

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Life hack: If you destroy your entire hand you get a free discard. Sixth Sense lets you do some hilariously stupid things some times.

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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    If you think that the face down boss blind is cheeseable because you can just screen record, that seems beyond the scope of the game.

    Screen recording just makes it obvious, it's cheeseable simply by setting the game speed to slow, or even having a good eye & memory for these things. The challenge it's presenting is one that's easily subverted, and mostly a question of accessibility (since the better you are at that sort of moment to moment recall, the easier the challenge its obviated).

    Something like forced card select or random joker disabled present more significant and interesting to overcome challenges that can't simply be defeated by having a good short term memory

    Went through a Green run with some Business card, Scary Face, Happy Face, retrigger Face nonsense.

    Anyway, face cards being drawn face down was funny. Just playing five face down cards is probably good cause pigeon hole principle.

    Similarly the 1 in 7 face down blind.
    This card that squeezed between a King and Queen is probably good.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    The face down cards being readable in slow motion seems like a bug, then.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    The face down cards being readable in slow motion seems like a bug, then.

    They're readable at any speed? You can literally watch it trigger each one, and then rearrange as needed. Slow mode just makes it easier.

    It's just a poorly designed boss blind that's not testing your decks skills, and it's instead testing players physical capacity.

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    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    Little tip: the Smeared Joker (clubs and spades count as the same suit, hearts and diamonds count as the same suit) together with the Seeing Double (?) Joker (the one where you get x2 if you play a hand that has a club and a non-club; the joker with the 2 clubs on it) does give a flush of 5 spades the x2 bonus, because it is a hand that has clubs and non-clubs, even if you only see 5 spades.

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    Got my $400! Like I said, stacking the double tokens with Anaglyph and then got a ‘$1 per hand played’ in ante 8 (which was actually 9 due to that voucher).

    Just two legendaries to find and then that’ll be all the card and voucher unlocks, though I’ve still got quite a few to actually find in a run and catalogue. Lots of the second tier vouchers seem very reluctant to spawn even though I buy their first tier every time I see them.

    I finally got the upgraded banana joker and of course it managed to hit its 1/1000 chance to destroy itself immediately.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
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    Cute little abandoned deck run - Got Walkie Talkie pretty early, and just went in on that, and then got to scale with Square Joker and Ride the Bus - having a raw 60 mult + 244 chips ontop of Red Seal Foil Multi Tens goes a long, long way.

    A lot of this was just abusing an early purple seal and a lucky ante decrease in the shop to let the deck scale out of control. Well, out of control for beating ante 8, it's not like it's going to beat much higher since it's pretty limited in it's crazy scoring abilities currently. It'd be a lot better if those were bonus chip tens, but that's not how the tarot cards came out, so hey.

    I finally got the upgraded banana joker and of course it managed to hit its 1/1000 chance to destroy itself immediately.

    Amazing.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    I had a run today with the Joker that adds the sale prices of the other jokers to itself for a multiplier, and then the egg that gets more expensive each round. It was going so well until it wasn't.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    If you think that the face down boss blind is cheeseable because you can just screen record, that seems beyond the scope of the game.

    Screen recording just makes it obvious, it's cheeseable simply by setting the game speed to slow, or even having a good eye & memory for these things. The challenge it's presenting is one that's easily subverted, and mostly a question of accessibility (since the better you are at that sort of moment to moment recall, the easier the challenge its obviated).

    Something like forced card select or random joker disabled present more significant and interesting to overcome challenges that can't simply be defeated by having a good short term memory

    I don't really see remembering what your jokers do and rearranging them between hands to a more effective arrangement as cheesing (aside from screen recording). That's just playing the game.
    You'll do similar during normal rounds a lot of the time. Some boss blinds are straight numeric hindrance but others will force to adapt how you play for a round, either by focusing on one big hand or playing different/same hand types.

    Rearranging your jokers to make the next hand closer to optimal is no more cheesing it than playing the checkered deck is cheesing the all clubs are debuffed blind.

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 17
    Just finished a run with the Painted deck (+2 hand size, -1 Joker slots) that went places.

    Started with Scholar (Aces +chips/+mult) to carry me through the first 3 antes. During Ante 2, I picked up the Matador ($8 per boss blind ability triggered) and used it on the next 3 bosses (two of which were "x suit disabled) for $72.

    Then I got the Half Joke (hands of 3 or less gain +20 mult) and Supernova to move through the middle game. My Aces were just barely clearing the Blinds, so I figured I needed to start changing things up.

    Ante 5 hit and I was offered The Family Joker (4 of a Kind hands give x4 mult) in the same shop as a Spectral Pack. I used the Spectral pack and hit Ouija (change all cards to the same rank). I rolled into 13 Queens and I was off to the races, with my focus on 4-5 of a Kinds with Queens.

    Throwback (x.5 mult for each skipped Blind) hit in the next shop (already at 1.5) so I snagged it up. A few shops later, I landed Scary Face (all Face cards give +30 chips) and Fortune Teller (around +20 mult already) to become unstoppable, scoring 400-500k each hand. The run was all but over at this point.

    In Ante 7, another Spectral pack showed up. It contained The Soul (discover a Legendary card). I'm still trying to finish my collection, so I sold off the Throwback figuring the Family Joker could still carry the run. I hit Triboulet (Kings/Queens give x2 Mult). On the plus side, my scores were now in the millions, but the downside was that I already had it unlocked.

    The final 4 (Popcorn died shortly after):

    fzo957is1hbs.png

    This was not an uncommon sight:

    ph2fau6z6f84.png

    My final deck before dying in Ante 11 (note this is after losing 4 glass Queens):

    bf9x5aekltuf.png

    Pretty awesome run. I haven't had a run where I made so many adjustments as I went along. I'm probably forgetting a few minor things, but through the first 5 Antes, I was definitely changing things up a lot. Most fun run I've had yet.

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    I had a run today with the Joker that adds the sale prices of the other jokers to itself for a multiplier, and then the egg that gets more expensive each round. It was going so well until it wasn't.

    I think my favorite trick I have pulled off with that is the one that adds one to the sell price of all other jokers. Put a multiplier one behind it and shit gets stupid.

    Gnizmo on
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    ..
    Pretty sure I'm wrong, and hack also doesn't make +4 Mult on the card worth it, and you want +30 chips instead.
    Pretty sure Heirophant > Empress always.

    It depends on what the values of each are before you add your bonuses in. Since it's just two operands with a straight multiplication, the percentage you increase one side is the same as the percentage the total is increased.

    E.g. 100 chips and 10 mult as your base values for that hand, scoring 1000.
    Add 30 chips and you 130x10 = 1300
    30% more chips going in, 30% more going out.
    Add 4 mult instead
    100x14 = 1400
    40% more mult in, 40% more chips out.

    Say your starting values were 100 and 20
    The same increases give you results of 2600 and 2400, having the addition of chips be more effective than mult.

    It's basically a little deceptive because you see more things with big chips bonuses vs smaller mult bonuses. But chips also starts bigger and cards provide inherent chips bonuses, so the main thing is the relative increase of either side of the equation.

    xMult doesn't matter for this because there's no difference between
    200 x 15 x 2 x 2
    (200 x 15) x (2 x 2)
    (200 x 2) x (2 x 15)
    etc because it's all multiplication.

    I'm starting to take a stricter look at my Mult.
    I've probably been biased towards +chip by only seeing the Mult after xMult has gone on top.
    Of course, things like (+Mult xMult) per card played doesn't help.

    Also, these green stakes really do not help switching strategy later in the run based on what drops.

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
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    I can't help but think what I really need is a few more Jokers.

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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
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    This is officially the stupidest thing I have managed to accomplish. It was using the Plasma deck so I only really needed to boost one side.

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    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
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    This is officially the stupidest thing I have managed to accomplish. It was using the Plasma deck so I only really needed to boost one side.
    And that is why this game is so great.

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    I really feel the second tier vouchers need an increased chance to spawn once you’ve bought the first tier. I’m guessing equal chance for all and the pool is too dilute. Makes the blank really a huge gamble.

    Jam Warrior on
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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    You need to buy all the vouchers IMO.
    Otherwise you just reroll into the bad ones.
    But then I'm struggling with green+ stakes so..

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    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    Sometimes I actively avoid the "more planets" one because "more tarots" is always way more valuable, and I hate my shop being clogged up with planets.

    But then again, I play on console where the version is still 1.0.0b, and I saw in a Youtube video that PC at 1.0.0n?
    So they may have tweaked some probabilities?

    Because I know your foils give +50 chips instead of console's +30, and I know my Bootstraps give +3 Mult/$5 instead of your +2Mult/$5.
    Oh yeah, and my Arm boss is deadly and crippling making things to level 0, so that I have something like 10x1 for flushes and 5x0 for pairs, which is definitely not nice, because early on he kills you, and later on when you need multiple hands it totally screws you over.

    I wonder what other things are different.

    Corporal Carl on
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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I won a cute black stake telescope run where i got Baron, Mime, Schematic (Whichever is the "Copy leftmost"), Stuntman, and Campfire, which for most of the run was funded by "Planets and Celestial boosters are free to buy". Eventually traded it out for a x40+ Mystic Joker.

    Sadly, it's attempts to do stupid ante shit were brought low when it hit "All face cards are debuffed". Riparoonie, but a win is a win.

    Black stake feels pretty comfy/interesting to play on. Hopefully they do sand off enough edges to make Gold Stake fun to play on for me !

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Just yeeted a run by not paying attention and playing a straight flush instead of my level 18 or so Flush. Whoops.

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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Trying to finish unlocking all the decks, which means going through all the different colored difficulty levels.

    As I get older, I find increased difficulty (Heat in Hades, Ascension in Slay the Spire, etc) especially in roguelikes, to be frustrating. I'm happy difficulty levels exist, but tying unlocks to them is a bit of a bummer. Oh well, I'm sure I can luck through a few Joker builds to get through any difficulty run.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Trying to finish unlocking all the decks, which means going through all the different colored difficulty levels.

    As I get older, I find increased difficulty (Heat in Hades, Ascension in Slay the Spire, etc) especially in roguelikes, to be frustrating. I'm happy difficulty levels exist, but tying unlocks to them is a bit of a bummer. Oh well, I'm sure I can luck through a few Joker builds to get through any difficulty run.

    You can click on your profile and then click unlock all. It disables achievements for that profile, but like, who cares honestly.

    For me with difficulty levels, it comes down to how well they're balanced. I really dislike Hades style heat, because I believe the pick your own difficulty is much more likely to hurt players fun than it is to challenge them, ontop of creating a warping effect on feedback.

    The other thing is what they do to increase the difficulty. StS works really well - there's a pleasant mix of raw stay checking in the game, coupled with a lot of air changes and twists that add new points to consider that I find it really fun. Context matters though, StS being turn based really changes the pressures on a plate be Hades real time (which can make stat checking a lot more unpleasant feeling)

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I was trying to unlock the final deck (beat Orange Stake difficulty) with the black deck and just could not do it.

    Two tries on the checkered deck and Bob’s your uncle.

    Pretty sure the black deck is incredibly undertuned. It probably needs to have the downside of -1 hand removed.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    It's a double penalty that's non obvious, both which hit you in the most difficult portion of the game.

    The actual upside is whatever, an extra joker slot is very powerful but only kicks in late game, and you have a lot of trouble getting there with a crippled economy.

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