Like when I apologized to you last night. I basically just did it so that if you kept on the issue I'd be able to claim the moral high ground and feel good about myself and turn people against you.
Edit: Too much truth, or just enough?
God its annoying when people do that.
I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard the words "Well I said I was sorry" uttered as a defense.
I also hate it when people attempt to end an argument by demanding you speak to them in private if you want to continue the conversation. If you keep going regardless you look like an asshole, and if you go along with them you look like you're dancing to their tune.
Especially since other people tend not to notice when someone pulls that.
Uh, ok. That has nothing to do with what I just said unless you apologized solely out of guilt, which is what I'm talking about, but doesn't seem to be what you're talking about because you had a different motive for apologizing. But thanks for sharing.
Actually I apologized to you mostly out of guilt, with the rest being made up of equal parts of "wanting to mend fences" and "wanting everyone else to see me mend fences".
But really that was a joke about the underhanded things people do to win arguments.
The answer is this: You don't apologize to her. Apologizing to her is a selfish action designed to assuage the guilt you apparently feel. All it will do to her is make her feel bad. Consider her behavior: Does it seem like she's angry with you? Does it seem like she blames you for anything? Only you know for certain but based on the data you've given here, I'd have to conclude that the answer is no.
I don't mean to be insulting, but that's the blunt truth. Apologizing to someone because you feel guilty is very rarely about the other person at all.
Wait, what? How the hell does that work? "I feel guilty for doing such and such, and I know you don't blame me, but I still wanted to apologize."
How the hell should that make her feel bad? Unless you mean "feel bad" in the same way someone "feels bad" when a child skins their knee.
What the hell is wrong with him apologizing? An apology isn't some kind of ancient pact wherein one's soul is given up for judgment.
Because his apology is irrelevant insofar as she is concerned. She doesn't seem to think he was being a dick, so if he's feeling guilty, then its his moral responsibility to just eat the guilt himself. There's absolutely no reason to tell her this unless he actually thinks she blames him for something. If he does, that's one thing. If he doesn't, an apology is superfluous to whatever relationship they have and is done solely to alleviate his own guilt.
I'm not saying apologies or honesty is necessarily wrong but if you aren't apologizing for the other person's benefit in some part then you really shouldn't be apologizing. Just learn from your own mistakes and evolve from them, that's it.
I'm not saying he does have to apologize at all. I'm saying that "don't apologize because you'll make her feel bad and you'll only apologize because you feel guilty" sounds silly.
Don't apologize because he feels guilty? How the hell? Isn't that a big part of why someone apologizes? They're accepting some responsibility? Some guilt.
Maybe it's just semantics we're playing at here. Clarify?
(This really isn't meant to sound like an attack. Rereading it, it may, but I swear by the power of Greyskull it is not.)
[edit]: All he'd be doing is admitting he recognizes that, to himself, he made some mistakes he feels bad about, and he wanted to more formally acknowledge and put a bit of closure to the issues.
Which makes the whole thing about him and him alone and the girl is just used as a way for him to feel better about himself.
[edit]: All he'd be doing is admitting he recognizes that, to himself, he made some mistakes he feels bad about, and he wanted to more formally acknowledge and put a bit of closure to the issues.
Which is not knowledge this girl needs to know. This is knowledge DUE can use to modify (or improve, if you like) his own personality, if he so chooses. This information is wholly irrelevant to the girl in question.
Wait. I should just not even bring it up and keep things awkward right? Because she's like an hour and a half away and i'm a whore who likes pretty things so I don't think i'd be able to survive being 21 and faithful.
Is it cruel to even continue talking to her if that's providing some sense of false hope?
How long have you known her?
Uh 6 years maybe? Started showing interest in high school which I ignored but didn't exactly decline. Now we've got a weird awkward thing going on whenever we have the chance to visit one another. Yeah. I think i'll just do nothing and wait for the world to handle it for me.
Drez, there is a good chance that she feels that I have been being a dick but I think I might be one of those "i can fix him" deals.
DasUberEdward on
0
Options
AlectharAlan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered Userregular
Like when I apologized to you last night. I basically just did it so that if you kept on the issue I'd be able to claim the moral high ground and feel good about myself and turn people against you.
Edit: Too much truth, or just enough?
God its annoying when people do that.
I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard the words "Well I said I was sorry" uttered as a defense.
I also hate it when people attempt to end an argument by demanding you speak to them in private if you want to continue the conversation. If you keep going regardless you look like an asshole, and if you go along with them you look like you're dancing to their tune.
Especially since other people tend not to notice when someone pulls that.
It's more awkward in real life conversation, but the "Take it to PMs or stop arguing with me" line is the more (seemingly?) more commonly used forum analogue.
Wait. I should just not even bring it up and keep things awkward right? Because she's like an hour and a half away and i'm a whore who likes pretty things so I don't think i'd be able to survive being 21 and faithful.
Is it cruel to even continue talking to her if that's providing some sense of false hope?
How long have you known her?
Uh 6 years maybe? Started showing interest in high school which I ignored but didn't exactly decline. Now we've got a weird awkward thing going on whenever we have the chance to visit one another. Yeah. I think i'll just do nothing and wait for the world to handle it for me.
Drez, there is a good chance that she feels that I have been being a dick but I think I might be one of those "i can fix him" deals.
If in 6 years she hasn't caught on explaining it to her isn't going to change anything.
I'm not saying he does have to apologize at all. I'm saying that "don't apologize because you'll make her feel bad and you'll only apologize because you feel guilty" sounds silly.
Don't apologize because he feels guilty? How the hell? Isn't that a big part of why someone apologizes? They're accepting some responsibility? Some guilt.
Maybe it's just semantics we're playing at here. Clarify?
(This really isn't meant to sound like an attack. Rereading it, it may, but I swear by the power of Greyskull it is not.)
Maybe it is a semantical difference.
Some people apologize as a means to assuage their own guilt. It is similar but not necessarily equivalent to the way a child apologizes to their parents to get out of being punished for something, regardless of whether or not they actually regret the action.
And I don't view communicating an apology to someone as owning up to something or taking responsibility for something. Sometimes, yes, and sometimes very much no. Sometimes taking responsibility for something is recognizing the error of your ways and rectifying it or learning from it on your own, without communicating it to anyone.
I understand your point too but I do think people use "honesty" as a means simply to alleviate their own bad feeling of what they are doing or have done. And I think apology is a very easy and lazy means to do that. I think true responsibility is simply realizing what you are doing and modifying your behavior to not do it anymore.
It's like those H/A threads we occasionally get from 20-year old super-religious people who think they should apologize to their girlfriends because they had a wet dream about some other girl they met or whatever. That kind of apology is selfish. It serves ONLY to assuage one's own guilt. Nothing more.
If you did perpetrate something against someone and they know it and they feel bad for it, then by all means apologize. Communicate your regret to them. The girl in DUE's situation, though, does not seem to know that he was treating her a certain way for a certain negative reason, and so informing of this, by apology or any other means, is not a very nice thing to do, and in fact it would be a selfish thing to do.
DUE: This situation in particular isn't a big deal, I'm just using it to speak in hypotheticals.
so if he's feeling guilty, then its his moral responsibility to just eat the guilt himself.
We live alone and die alone? I was fine with the little bit before that. Yes, the apology is more about his own feelings, but how that means his feelings have to remain insolated and contained... Why? Why is that so? Because he has to be a man about things?
There's absolutely no reason to tell her this unless he actually thinks she blames him for something.
Yes there is absolutely a reason. Full disclosure, sharing emotions. Might not she feel a tad betrayed if she instead finds out he felt guilty and bad about his actions before, and maybe she would have liked him to talk about them, so they could work 'em out. But he instead opting for no communication because... he had to be... strong? Maybe she would have appreciated being able to tell him straight out, "No, DUE, I don't blame you, and I'm not angry at you anymore, don't worry about it." Then closure! Happy feelings!
If he does, that's one thing. If he doesn't, an apology is superfluous to whatever relationship they have and is done solely to alleviate his own guilt.
I think you're extremely overstating DUE's selfishness here. It seems insulting and a bit hasty/judgment to write it off as DUe thinking, "Well, I feel bad about this, but if I just spit out 'im sorry' then I won't have to feel bad anymore."
This isn't as if DUE ran over her mother, and that he thinks if he buys her a nice bouquet for the funeral, quilt is assuaged and he doesn't have to feel bad anymore.
I'm not saying apologies or honesty is necessarily wrong but if you aren't apologizing for the other person's benefit in some part then you really shouldn't be apologizing. Just learn from your own mistakes and evolve from them, that's it.
"For the other person's benefit" is a damn fine reason to apologize. But I think the problem with your drawn assumption about "apologizing for yourself" is that, how's it go? "No man is an island unto himself"?
I don't see the inherent evil in apologizing to bring closure to your own feelings, and for the point of communication. There's nothing wrong with wanting that. Maybe it's little different from just wishing someone would love you, or say you're attractive or smart.
I do see how it could be bad, and what you say might be true. But it in no ways seems that DUE's case is so.
Some people apologize as a means to assuage their own guilt. It is similar but not necessarily equivalent to the way a child apologizes to their parents to get out of being punished for something, regardless of whether or not they actually regret the action.
And I don't view communicating an apology to someone as owning up to something or taking responsibility for something. Sometimes, yes, and sometimes very much no. Sometimes taking responsibility for something is recognizing the error of your ways and rectifying it or learning from it on your own, without communicating it to anyone.
I understand your point too but I do think people use "honesty" as a means simply to alleviate their own bad feeling of what they are doing or have done. And I think apology is a very easy and lazy means to do that. I think true responsibility is simply realizing what you are doing and modifying your behavior to not do it anymore.
It's like those H/A threads we occasionally get from 20-year old super-religious people who think they should apologize to their girlfriends because they had a wet dream about some other girl they met or whatever. That kind of apology is selfish. It serves ONLY to assuage one's own guilt. Nothing more.
If you did perpetrate something against someone and they know it and they feel bad for it, then by all means apologize. Communicate your regret to them. The girl in DUE's situation, though, does not seem to know that he was treating her a certain way for a certain negative reason, and so informing of this, by apology or any other means, is not a very nice thing to do, and in fact it would be a selfish thing to do.
DUE: This situation in particular isn't a big deal, I'm just using it to speak in hypotheticals.
OK, I actually agree with everything you said, in that I think it happens, and can be true. In situations where the circumstances are as you have suggested, I would be on your side of the fence.
However, I think in DUE's case, it wouldn't be all that bad for him to apologize. Of course, I am not saying he has to, just that I think she'd understand.
I think if I say anything it's going to be "hey um look. i've been really stupid and a bit of an oblivious asshole. i don't know if saying this at this point will correct or change anything but I think it's better late than never. So. . .i'm sorry. Uh where do you want to go eat?"
Nah it's a discussion that comes up in H/A from time to time. Normally when some infidelity occurs and someone can't decide whether to tell their significant other or not.
DSC, the point is that Tube doesn't want to change names, period.
I know but normally he givens hilarious name changes to those who ask in the thread. Like the guy who was named captain reading comprehension or something like that.
LOOK AT MY NAME. I ALWAYS MISS THAT DAMN THREAD BY TWO MINUTES.
I think if I say anything it's going to be "hey um look. i've been really stupid and a bit of an oblivious asshole. i don't know if saying this at this point will correct or change anything but I think it's better late than never. So. . .i'm sorry. Uh where do you want to go eat?"
NO!
You already said you don't want to be with this girl, and with the distance thing, things wouldn't work out with you two. You're setting her up for a lot of false hope if you do this.
Also, I have taken to posting more at xwalk than here. Nowhere near enough debate about subjects I care about here. Maybe fewer douchies here or something, I dunno.
DSC, the point is that Tube doesn't want to change names, period.
I know but normally he givens hilarious name changes to those who ask in the thread. Like the guy who was named captain reading comprehension or something like that.
LOOK AT MY NAME. I ALWAYS MISS THAT DAMN THREAD BY TWO MINUTES.
What's wrong, DasUberEdward?
It's awful and I made it when I was playing Unreal Tournament constantly at the age of 13?
so if he's feeling guilty, then its his moral responsibility to just eat the guilt himself.
We live alone and die alone? I was fine with the little bit before that. Yes, the apology is more about his own feelings, but how that means his feelings have to remain insolated and contained... Why? Why is that so? Because he has to be a man about things?
It has nothing to do with being a "man" it has to do with being a moral being. Moral beings are neither required nor should share their every emotion - especially the "guilt" emotion - with other people. You took this in a very weird direction. This has nothing to do with some misogynistic bullshit about men sharing their feelings. Everything I said applies to women too. Hell, it would apply to robots too if they had the capacity of human beings.
There's absolutely no reason to tell her this unless he actually thinks she blames him for something.
Yes there is absolutely a reason. Full disclosure, sharing emotions. Might not she feel a tad betrayed if she instead finds out he felt guilty and bad about his actions before, and maybe she would have liked him to talk about them, so they could work 'em out. But he instead opting for no communication because... he had to be... strong? Maybe she would have appreciated being able to tell him straight out, "No, DUE, I don't blame you, and I'm not angry at you anymore, don't worry about it." Then closure! Happy feelings!
My point is very simple: DUE is responsible for his own actions AND his own guilt. He is responsible for the consequences of his actions and one consequence of every action is how you feel your own behavior. I don't think anyone has a right to alleviate their own mental burdens on someone else, sorry. I think that kind of attitude is, frankly, immoral.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with being "strong." That is such nonsense. It has to do with not burdening other people with YOUR responsibilities. DUE is responsible for his own guilt. He should process it himself. If he needs a third party to help him, he certainly shouldn't use the person whom the truth might hurt as that external source of help.
If he does, that's one thing. If he doesn't, an apology is superfluous to whatever relationship they have and is done solely to alleviate his own guilt.
I think you're extremely overstating DUE's selfishness here. It seems insulting and a bit hasty/judgment to write it off as DUe thinking, "Well, I feel bad about this, but if I just spit out 'im sorry' then I won't have to feel bad anymore."
This isn't as if DUE ran over her mother, and that he thinks if he buys her a nice bouquet for the funeral, quilt is assuaged and he doesn't have to feel bad anymore.
Do you really not understand the scope of my argument? Come on, man, you're smarter than this. The example you posted falls way far out of the scope of what I am saying.
I'm not saying apologies or honesty is necessarily wrong but if you aren't apologizing for the other person's benefit in some part then you really shouldn't be apologizing. Just learn from your own mistakes and evolve from them, that's it.
"For the other person's benefit" is a damn fine reason to apologize. But I think the problem with your drawn assumption about "apologizing for yourself" is that, how's it go? "No man is an island unto himself"?
I don't see the inherent evil in apologizing to bring closure to your own feelings, and for the point of communication. There's nothing wrong with wanting that. Maybe it's little different from just wishing someone would love you, or say you're attractive or smart.
I don't agree with any of this "no man is an island" bullshit. Sorry, but that doesn't apply to everything, unless you feel like it's appropriate to bleed every single aspect of your existence to those around you. I thoroughly do not agree. I do think men and women should and do happily coexist but there should be some limitations, especially when it comes to actively burdening other people with what goes on in your own mind.
I do see how it could be bad, and what you say might be true. But it in no ways seems that DUE's case is so.
Like I said, I am using DUE's case as a template only. I don't think his situation is so dire. However, I would still advise him against this course of action.
I think if I say anything it's going to be "hey um look. i've been really stupid and a bit of an oblivious asshole. i don't know if saying this at this point will correct or change anything but I think it's better late than never. So. . .i'm sorry. Uh where do you want to go eat?"
NO!
Agreed. Saying something like that would kind of crush her.
If your fine with the way things are now (excluding whatever guilt you feel), why say anything?
DSC, the point is that Tube doesn't want to change names, period.
I know but normally he givens hilarious name changes to those who ask in the thread. Like the guy who was named captain reading comprehension or something like that.
LOOK AT MY NAME. I ALWAYS MISS THAT DAMN THREAD BY TWO MINUTES.
What's wrong, DasUberEdward?
It's awful and I made it when I was playing Unreal Tournament constantly at the age of 13?
Look, DasUberEdward, you shouldn't worry about it too much.
Yeah I'll be honest DasUberEdward is pretty awful.
Surprisingly, no one thinks I'm a weeaboo based on my name, at least so far as I can tell. So ... it's worked out! Also, it is the name of my avatar, and having that avatar is so worth it.
I think if I say anything it's going to be "hey um look. i've been really stupid and a bit of an oblivious asshole. i don't know if saying this at this point will correct or change anything but I think it's better late than never. So. . .i'm sorry. Uh where do you want to go eat?"
NO!
You already said you don't want to be with this girl, and with the distance thing, things wouldn't work out with you two. You're setting her up for a lot of false hope if you do this.
1. The apology was generally solid, and not so bad.
2. The "wanna get something to eat" wasn't bad either. Unless you prescribe to ladder theory.
Posts
Especially since other people tend not to notice when someone pulls that.
Actually I apologized to you mostly out of guilt, with the rest being made up of equal parts of "wanting to mend fences" and "wanting everyone else to see me mend fences".
But really that was a joke about the underhanded things people do to win arguments.
Battle.net
Because his apology is irrelevant insofar as she is concerned. She doesn't seem to think he was being a dick, so if he's feeling guilty, then its his moral responsibility to just eat the guilt himself. There's absolutely no reason to tell her this unless he actually thinks she blames him for something. If he does, that's one thing. If he doesn't, an apology is superfluous to whatever relationship they have and is done solely to alleviate his own guilt.
I'm not saying apologies or honesty is necessarily wrong but if you aren't apologizing for the other person's benefit in some part then you really shouldn't be apologizing. Just learn from your own mistakes and evolve from them, that's it.
Don't apologize because he feels guilty? How the hell? Isn't that a big part of why someone apologizes? They're accepting some responsibility? Some guilt.
Maybe it's just semantics we're playing at here. Clarify?
(This really isn't meant to sound like an attack. Rereading it, it may, but I swear by the power of Greyskull it is not.)
Which is not knowledge this girl needs to know. This is knowledge DUE can use to modify (or improve, if you like) his own personality, if he so chooses. This information is wholly irrelevant to the girl in question.
Uh 6 years maybe? Started showing interest in high school which I ignored but didn't exactly decline. Now we've got a weird awkward thing going on whenever we have the chance to visit one another. Yeah. I think i'll just do nothing and wait for the world to handle it for me.
Drez, there is a good chance that she feels that I have been being a dick but I think I might be one of those "i can fix him" deals.
It's more awkward in real life conversation, but the "Take it to PMs or stop arguing with me" line is the more (seemingly?) more commonly used forum analogue.
Battle.net
!
So, Loren, how's China?
You're the [chat]ter who lives in China, right?
Battle.net
If in 6 years she hasn't caught on explaining it to her isn't going to change anything.
Maybe it is a semantical difference.
Some people apologize as a means to assuage their own guilt. It is similar but not necessarily equivalent to the way a child apologizes to their parents to get out of being punished for something, regardless of whether or not they actually regret the action.
And I don't view communicating an apology to someone as owning up to something or taking responsibility for something. Sometimes, yes, and sometimes very much no. Sometimes taking responsibility for something is recognizing the error of your ways and rectifying it or learning from it on your own, without communicating it to anyone.
I understand your point too but I do think people use "honesty" as a means simply to alleviate their own bad feeling of what they are doing or have done. And I think apology is a very easy and lazy means to do that. I think true responsibility is simply realizing what you are doing and modifying your behavior to not do it anymore.
It's like those H/A threads we occasionally get from 20-year old super-religious people who think they should apologize to their girlfriends because they had a wet dream about some other girl they met or whatever. That kind of apology is selfish. It serves ONLY to assuage one's own guilt. Nothing more.
If you did perpetrate something against someone and they know it and they feel bad for it, then by all means apologize. Communicate your regret to them. The girl in DUE's situation, though, does not seem to know that he was treating her a certain way for a certain negative reason, and so informing of this, by apology or any other means, is not a very nice thing to do, and in fact it would be a selfish thing to do.
DUE: This situation in particular isn't a big deal, I'm just using it to speak in hypotheticals.
And yes I know Belkar isn't really a DK but *shrug*
We live alone and die alone? I was fine with the little bit before that. Yes, the apology is more about his own feelings, but how that means his feelings have to remain insolated and contained... Why? Why is that so? Because he has to be a man about things?
Yes there is absolutely a reason. Full disclosure, sharing emotions. Might not she feel a tad betrayed if she instead finds out he felt guilty and bad about his actions before, and maybe she would have liked him to talk about them, so they could work 'em out. But he instead opting for no communication because... he had to be... strong? Maybe she would have appreciated being able to tell him straight out, "No, DUE, I don't blame you, and I'm not angry at you anymore, don't worry about it." Then closure! Happy feelings!
I think you're extremely overstating DUE's selfishness here. It seems insulting and a bit hasty/judgment to write it off as DUe thinking, "Well, I feel bad about this, but if I just spit out 'im sorry' then I won't have to feel bad anymore."
This isn't as if DUE ran over her mother, and that he thinks if he buys her a nice bouquet for the funeral, quilt is assuaged and he doesn't have to feel bad anymore.
"For the other person's benefit" is a damn fine reason to apologize. But I think the problem with your drawn assumption about "apologizing for yourself" is that, how's it go? "No man is an island unto himself"?
I don't see the inherent evil in apologizing to bring closure to your own feelings, and for the point of communication. There's nothing wrong with wanting that. Maybe it's little different from just wishing someone would love you, or say you're attractive or smart.
I do see how it could be bad, and what you say might be true. But it in no ways seems that DUE's case is so.
OK, I actually agree with everything you said, in that I think it happens, and can be true. In situations where the circumstances are as you have suggested, I would be on your side of the fence.
However, I think in DUE's case, it wouldn't be all that bad for him to apologize. Of course, I am not saying he has to, just that I think she'd understand.
It's sweet, but I have some shit in my lungs that will not come out.
I'm also finding that I am the cat's pajamas to girls that are in relationships.
I gotta see what I can do about not turning into that guy who gets his head caved in in Unfaithful.
Nah it's a discussion that comes up in H/A from time to time. Normally when some infidelity occurs and someone can't decide whether to tell their significant other or not.
"Aw, honey, of course you're the strongest guy in the world. I love you!"
What's wrong, DasUberEdward?
Man, I feel the same way about penises.
NO!
You already said you don't want to be with this girl, and with the distance thing, things wouldn't work out with you two. You're setting her up for a lot of false hope if you do this.
It's awful and I made it when I was playing Unreal Tournament constantly at the age of 13?
It has nothing to do with being a "man" it has to do with being a moral being. Moral beings are neither required nor should share their every emotion - especially the "guilt" emotion - with other people. You took this in a very weird direction. This has nothing to do with some misogynistic bullshit about men sharing their feelings. Everything I said applies to women too. Hell, it would apply to robots too if they had the capacity of human beings.
My point is very simple: DUE is responsible for his own actions AND his own guilt. He is responsible for the consequences of his actions and one consequence of every action is how you feel your own behavior. I don't think anyone has a right to alleviate their own mental burdens on someone else, sorry. I think that kind of attitude is, frankly, immoral.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with being "strong." That is such nonsense. It has to do with not burdening other people with YOUR responsibilities. DUE is responsible for his own guilt. He should process it himself. If he needs a third party to help him, he certainly shouldn't use the person whom the truth might hurt as that external source of help.
Do you really not understand the scope of my argument? Come on, man, you're smarter than this. The example you posted falls way far out of the scope of what I am saying.
I don't agree with any of this "no man is an island" bullshit. Sorry, but that doesn't apply to everything, unless you feel like it's appropriate to bleed every single aspect of your existence to those around you. I thoroughly do not agree. I do think men and women should and do happily coexist but there should be some limitations, especially when it comes to actively burdening other people with what goes on in your own mind.
Like I said, I am using DUE's case as a template only. I don't think his situation is so dire. However, I would still advise him against this course of action.
Agreed. Saying something like that would kind of crush her.
If your fine with the way things are now (excluding whatever guilt you feel), why say anything?
This is how I initially read this sentence.
Which nearly prompted me to run over to NYC and start screaming,"DON'T DO IT SHAZ THE GUN IS A LIE DON'T DO IT"
Look, DasUberEdward, you shouldn't worry about it too much.
Surprisingly, no one thinks I'm a weeaboo based on my name, at least so far as I can tell. So ... it's worked out! Also, it is the name of my avatar, and having that avatar is so worth it.
1. The apology was generally solid, and not so bad.
2. The "wanna get something to eat" wasn't bad either. Unless you prescribe to ladder theory.