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Continuing to Discuss the [2020 Primary] and Not Other Stuff
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Same. I'm mostly fine with Sanders, but his toxic fandom is very toxic.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Aye. This whole thing seems to be basically social media freaking the fuck out after being primed and then egged on by the mainstream media.
Some variation of #CNNSucks is also trending on twitter, if that makes you feel better.
I think Warren and Sanders probably have the best shot at moving the conversation to the left so that this sort of thing can actually be discussed at some point, if they can avoid the trap of fighting each other too soon
Which is a thing being encouraged by the media and some moronic doomer idiots on Twitter and Instagram
To build on this; it's also 3 years later. Time has passed. People saw the outcome of that whole situation, INCLUDING their actions. Some 18 or 20 year being an asshole online is one thing, doing it again in their mid 20's or whatever is another.
I'm not saying that because of this new cycle everyone should be their absolute most perfect self, but anyone who is being a shitheel now is doing so full well knowing that it wasn't exactly an easy mode path to victory. If anything, they may be acting in ways that are actively counterproductive, and they've had over 3 years to mull that over.
Yeah yeah yeah, any group in the tens or hundreds of thousands is going to have some assholes, I assume that with any group of 3 or more (and 2 or more is a good chance), assholes are common, but being easy manipulated into seething outrage like some seem to be (based on the hot take tweets and whatnot) is not showing a lot of pattern recognition.
The media and Trump and Russian trolls (and American trolls) and whatnot are all going to be taking giant steaming dumps over stupid petty shit. It wasn't that long ago that it was common knowledge that Russia had stirred the pot between factions before. Is that happening now? I don't know. But boy am I going to be pissed if this goes sideways in November and then in the days and weeks that follow we find it was more of the same.
It's possible for something to be bad without it being TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS TIME, and between the media and twitter it feels like a bunch of pitchfork sellers are calling loudly how great their wares are, and a bunch of people holding torches are really eager to get them some pitchforks.
I wouldn't be surprised if a decent amount, or even possibly a majority, of the online vitriol is astro-turfed.
With that said, I'm sadly not surprised that this blow up happened, and that this was precisely what I was worried about when Sanders announced his candidacy again.
Admitting mistakes and adjusting a position based on new evidence really seem like anathema to the general electorate. At the very least, doing either of these things is something that opponents will readily weaponize, and there is evidence it works.
It really fucking sucks.
I just don't think Biden's support is based around anything that would change because of his statements. It's sorta like expecting Trump's racism or stupidity to change his numbers.
For what it's worth Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and AOC are all on Bernie's side.
This was retweeted by Tlaib:
Source
Are they calling Warren a liar, too?
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Fuck Joe Manchin
That being said, because I enjoy drama, the fight between Warren and Sanders did make me laugh out loud when CNN asked Steyer about it, since he was next to handshake-gate.
Made me LOL, couldn't help it.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/tom-steyer-on-elizabeth-warren-handshake-snub-of-bernie-sanders-you-could-see-its-an-awkward-moment
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I mean this literally feels like in the wake of Biden being touchy feely "look at all these women who said he didn't touch them." Ok that can also be true?
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Oh. Fair enough, then!
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Probably about as intellectually engaging
This doesn't matter. It's the nothingest of nothing burgers. I have been catching up in this thread for an hour, hoping to see some post debate analysis, and it's just... bullshit no one should care about.
These people are running for president. We need to know about clinate change, healthcare, how they would deal with the very real impact of the utter degredation of our diplomatic foreign policy. And we're stuck on highschool bullshit. It was a private conversation, and they seem to have dealt with it privately, before fucking CNN dug it up to hype their fucking debate. I am positive they asked people in the Warren and Sanders orbit about stupid backbitey shit they heard about. But we actually need to move one from this specific thing.
In short, we are not allowed to post memes, but mine would be CharlieDayShutUp.gif.
And here, we have a perfect example.
As I was scrolling through, catching up, this post jumped out at me and took the wind out of my lungs.
Somebody is saying that you can't be White and also be Jewish! Jews only count as White when it suits the majority! I'm no longer white, I'm "other" because I'm Jewish. The outrage! The hurt! The 'holy shit fuck you' reaction.
And then, I stopped, I thought, I paused, and I talked it over with some friends. And those friends pointed out that maybe I was misinterpreting this post in a way that was harmful to myself but wasn't really the intention of the poster/speaker.
Perhaps this post/statement was to remind others that while Sanders is in fact an old white man, he is also Jewish and so has some understanding of being a minority. This was not a statement of 'either/or', instead it was a statement of 'also is'.
But man, I was full of righteous fire and fury at what I was pretty sure that I read/heard in this tiny exchange that everybody else seems to have missed. I guess it's just a good example of how a well-meaning statement from a well-meaning ally might be said with sincerity, but heard completely different from somebody else who is a part of that minority.
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It's not television. It's politics.
He accused whoever talked to CNN of lying. Was it Warren staff that talked to CNN? The only way to say that Sanders accused Warren staff of such, is if you believe they’re behind the CNN story.
I only have a fraction of jewish ancestry and I don't identify as jewish. But I come off as jewish enough to get weird fucking comments from people occasionally. Like, I get comments about how I remind people of a clearly jewish comedian like Larry David or Ari Shaffir and people just out of the blue try to talk about Israel with me.
I think that's the actual reality of being jewish, you really are treated as an "other" in parts of the US. It's not overtly hostile alienation, but it's creepy nevertheless. Mass media kinda papers over it because jews are more ubiquitous in urban centers like LA and NY, but the the weird sentiments about jewishness are out there. Sanders is not just any old white man in the eyes of the American public.
Is all this a Would vs Could conversational breakdown that has spiraled wildly into stupidland?
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All social media is a bubble so everybody's experience may vary, but I definitely see way more angry Sanders stans, both on their own posts and anything pro-Warren, than I do for other candidates. I don't explicitly follow anybody for US politics, either, though the youtubers I follow lean left.
Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4539766/user-clip-classic-bernie-sanders-1988-interview-individuals-money-dominate-political-process
The next thing out of Sanders mouth is dismissing and diminishing MLK's efforts for racial justice. And he claims that
It is an incredibly regressive anti-woke position, denying the importance of racism and sexism to US society.
If this is a defense that in 1988 Sanders said a woman could be President based on his belief that sexism was not still an important part of US society, wouldn't that necessarily require he still holds that fairly right wing position? And if he doesn't, then necessarily that is not really a response to the claim.
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Right.
So I, being Jewish and having an understanding of that 'othering', read that statement initially as just another way of 'othering' being Jewish.
Much like somebody who has been told for a lot of their adult life that "a woman can't do that" would likely have also heard an otherwise innocuous conversation about the way that Donald J Trump will be a complete asshole in a general election, especially against a woman candidate, in an equally unflattering light.
Hexmage's post is exactly 3 words long. And yet to me those words, at first, encapsulated an entire lifetime of being 'othered' and closed in around an entire internalised truth that as a Jew I'm only considered White until I'm not.
Three words!
Three little words, likely meant as a means of saying "Remember, Bernie isn't just your standard WASPy old man", and instead I read/heard something different.
I'm not saying that Hexmage intended to cause hurt with those 3 words, the exact opposite almost certainly! But, did they still cause an initial reaction of pain? Absolutely. Did I read something different in what was said? Yup.
Communication is complicated is my point.
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See, I completely believe you when you say that, which is why it's obnoxious when it is implied my experiences aren't true and I'm saying it because of anger over the last primary I voted for Sanders in or because it's fashionable.
I have no doubt youve met plenty of shitty Sanders supporters.
Then don't reply by telling me I'm mentioning it because it's fashionable.
Like, I realize it takes very little effort to be shitty online.
But still.
I wasnt talking about you specifically in that regard. More that despite every candidate having their shitty fans and grifters its Sanders's that come up constantly. The toxic bernie bro is as much a convenient meme as it is any kind of fact.
For instance, to borrow from past experiences with Harris stans, 30 seconds on twitter will bring you plenty of her people talking about how they hope Trump wins as punishment for not supporting her. Do we talk about it? No of course not who gives a fuck, but inquisitorial questions about where Sanders's supporters' loyalties lie are so common as to be cliche.
Most of them just get paid 6 digit figures to do it on TV and print.