Continuing to Discuss the [2020 Primary] and Not Other Stuff

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    People make a lot of assumptions about who was bothered by this

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Young progressives on social media are just as infuriating as they were in 2016, I'm glad the campaign's official stance is "Biden is bad stop with this tmz shit"

    Same. I'm mostly fine with Sanders, but his toxic fandom is very toxic.

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  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    also for sure it should be a national primary, if you want the rules of a democratic government, you have to accept that sometimes you aren't the majority and that you lose. Sorry Iowans, win more people over to your way of thinking or accept that you don't have the votes.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    This Warren Sanders beef really feels manufactured by the media

    Also, Twitter.

    Which, reflexively, fuck Twitter, for the usual eight course meal grocery list worth of reasons.

    Aye. This whole thing seems to be basically social media freaking the fuck out after being primed and then egged on by the mainstream media.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I hope this whole thing just hurts CNN

    Some variation of #CNNSucks is also trending on twitter, if that makes you feel better.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
    I will always think primaries are dumb.

    I don't like how we have them right now for sure. Like all on one day would be bad because one bit of momentum and a bad candidate can be selected. Too drawn out and it feels like it never ends. Really I just wish Iowa and NH weren't first because neither represent a significant electorate, and both encourage I think shitty early campaigning.

    All in one day with ranked voting. Ideally with the campaigns publicly funded and PACs outlawed while we're living the dream.

    I think Warren and Sanders probably have the best shot at moving the conversation to the left so that this sort of thing can actually be discussed at some point, if they can avoid the trap of fighting each other too soon

    Which is a thing being encouraged by the media and some moronic doomer idiots on Twitter and Instagram

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    I wish anything Biden did got the level of scrutiny things Sanders and Warren do

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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    I think we might as well have this fight now because Biden isn't dropping out before Warren

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    Young progressives on social media are just as infuriating as they were in 2016, I'm glad the campaign's official stance is "Biden is bad stop with this tmz shit"

    To build on this; it's also 3 years later. Time has passed. People saw the outcome of that whole situation, INCLUDING their actions. Some 18 or 20 year being an asshole online is one thing, doing it again in their mid 20's or whatever is another.

    I'm not saying that because of this new cycle everyone should be their absolute most perfect self, but anyone who is being a shitheel now is doing so full well knowing that it wasn't exactly an easy mode path to victory. If anything, they may be acting in ways that are actively counterproductive, and they've had over 3 years to mull that over.

    Yeah yeah yeah, any group in the tens or hundreds of thousands is going to have some assholes, I assume that with any group of 3 or more (and 2 or more is a good chance), assholes are common, but being easy manipulated into seething outrage like some seem to be (based on the hot take tweets and whatnot) is not showing a lot of pattern recognition.

    The media and Trump and Russian trolls (and American trolls) and whatnot are all going to be taking giant steaming dumps over stupid petty shit. It wasn't that long ago that it was common knowledge that Russia had stirred the pot between factions before. Is that happening now? I don't know. But boy am I going to be pissed if this goes sideways in November and then in the days and weeks that follow we find it was more of the same.

    It's possible for something to be bad without it being TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS TIME, and between the media and twitter it feels like a bunch of pitchfork sellers are calling loudly how great their wares are, and a bunch of people holding torches are really eager to get them some pitchforks.

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  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    You know shit is getting out of control when David Sirota is telling people to calm the fuck down.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a decent amount, or even possibly a majority, of the online vitriol is astro-turfed.

    With that said, I'm sadly not surprised that this blow up happened, and that this was precisely what I was worried about when Sanders announced his candidacy again.

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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    I can only hope Biden's utter inability to admit anything is a mistake helps lead to his downfall.

    Admitting mistakes and adjusting a position based on new evidence really seem like anathema to the general electorate. At the very least, doing either of these things is something that opponents will readily weaponize, and there is evidence it works.

    It really fucking sucks.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    I can only hope Biden's utter inability to admit anything is a mistake helps lead to his downfall.

    Admitting mistakes and adjusting a position based on new evidence really seem like anathema to the general electorate. At the very least, doing either of these things is something that opponents will readily weaponize, and there is evidence it works.

    It really fucking sucks.

    I just don't think Biden's support is based around anything that would change because of his statements. It's sorta like expecting Trump's racism or stupidity to change his numbers.

    Preacher
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    shryke wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »

    Except this story was already a headline before the debate and before either candidate commented on it.

    But hey, blame women.

    The claim made was that both Warren and Sanders tried to de-escalate. Warren failed to shake Sanders' hand afterwards in a very public snub.

    So yes, I will blame Senator Warren for failing to de-escalate the situation.

    Except it's only an escalation of you think it matters. Even fucking Sirota is saying it doesn't. The headlines for this story were already a thing for days before the debate, so handshake-ghazi didn't cause that either. The media was already making this fight happen.

    Of course, if you want to call "not shaking his hand" am escalation anyway then "calling her a liar" is also an escalation and the most likely precipitating incident to handshake-ghazi.

    For what it's worth Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and AOC are all on Bernie's side.



    This was retweeted by Tlaib:


    Electing women is “part of a progressive ideology,” she added. “I know that the senator believes that as well.”

    Source

    Are they calling Warren a liar, too?

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    No! Because they aren't saying he didn't say it/Warren is making it up!

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Something 90% of voters pay absolutely no attention to anything until something like a month out from the general election, and honestly, given the bullshit of this process, I envy their ignorance

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »

    I just don't think Biden's support is based around anything that would change because of his statements. It's sorta like expecting Trump's racism or stupidity to change his numbers.
    I think you're right. Seriously, people, 90% of the time, Shryke is right, just listen to Shryke.

    That being said, because I enjoy drama, the fight between Warren and Sanders did make me laugh out loud when CNN asked Steyer about it, since he was next to handshake-gate.
    Steyer wrote:
    "You could see it's an awkward moment."

    "Look, I was just going up to say 'Good night,'" he added, "and I felt like, OK, I feel like something's going on."

    "Whatever they were going on between each other, I was trying to get out of the way as fast as possible,” Steyer added.

    Made me LOL, couldn't help it.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    @Bizazedo I said don't get personal. Or you can be kicked. Up to you.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    No! Because they aren't saying he didn't say it/Warren is making it up!

    I mean this literally feels like in the wake of Biden being touchy feely "look at all these women who said he didn't touch them." Ok that can also be true?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do think Shryke is bang-on almost every time. It was a compliment. No one was being attacked.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited January 15
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do think Shryke is bang-on almost every time. It was a compliment. No one was being attacked.

    Oh. Fair enough, then!

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    I think for the next debate they should just give everyone a pool noodle and let them go at it

    Probably about as intellectually engaging

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The last election made me paranoud, because I am now wondering how much of this outrage is Cyrillic.

    This doesn't matter. It's the nothingest of nothing burgers. I have been catching up in this thread for an hour, hoping to see some post debate analysis, and it's just... bullshit no one should care about.

    These people are running for president. We need to know about clinate change, healthcare, how they would deal with the very real impact of the utter degredation of our diplomatic foreign policy. And we're stuck on highschool bullshit. It was a private conversation, and they seem to have dealt with it privately, before fucking CNN dug it up to hype their fucking debate. I am positive they asked people in the Warren and Sanders orbit about stupid backbitey shit they heard about. But we actually need to move one from this specific thing.

    In short, we are not allowed to post memes, but mine would be CharlieDayShutUp.gif.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    They should put the League of Women Voters in charge of the debates.

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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Warren supporters talk about US sexism and what that does for female politicians all the time. Its one of the primary reasons given for the 2016 loss. To then act like someone saying that women under that environment couldnt win the presidency is being sexist just feels like a serious stretch unless you believe Sanders was actually saying women as a class arent good enough to win due to their own failures as a class, which is beyond parody.

    Hillary still won the popular vote by the largest margin in US history. She had 2.8 million more votes than Trump. Second place is Bush v Gore at just over 500 thousand.

    I’m not saying sexism wasn’t a factor in 2016, but I think it should be obvious that a woman can win the even in this toxic environment.

    Hell, Sanders himself was beaten by a woman in 2016 primary, so I have no idea why he would say a woman can’t win 2020.

    He's an old white guy they say stupid shit all the time.

    He's Jewish, actually.

    And here, we have a perfect example.


    As I was scrolling through, catching up, this post jumped out at me and took the wind out of my lungs.

    Somebody is saying that you can't be White and also be Jewish! Jews only count as White when it suits the majority! I'm no longer white, I'm "other" because I'm Jewish. The outrage! The hurt! The 'holy shit fuck you' reaction.

    And then, I stopped, I thought, I paused, and I talked it over with some friends. And those friends pointed out that maybe I was misinterpreting this post in a way that was harmful to myself but wasn't really the intention of the poster/speaker.

    Perhaps this post/statement was to remind others that while Sanders is in fact an old white man, he is also Jewish and so has some understanding of being a minority. This was not a statement of 'either/or', instead it was a statement of 'also is'.

    But man, I was full of righteous fire and fury at what I was pretty sure that I read/heard in this tiny exchange that everybody else seems to have missed. I guess it's just a good example of how a well-meaning statement from a well-meaning ally might be said with sincerity, but heard completely different from somebody else who is a part of that minority.

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    HBO presents This Debate Tonight with John Oliver.

    It's not television. It's politics.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I think it’s worth noting that Sanders outright accused Warren’s staff of lying before Warren herself got involved.

    He accused whoever talked to CNN of lying. Was it Warren staff that talked to CNN? The only way to say that Sanders accused Warren staff of such, is if you believe they’re behind the CNN story.

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  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Warren supporters talk about US sexism and what that does for female politicians all the time. Its one of the primary reasons given for the 2016 loss. To then act like someone saying that women under that environment couldnt win the presidency is being sexist just feels like a serious stretch unless you believe Sanders was actually saying women as a class arent good enough to win due to their own failures as a class, which is beyond parody.

    Hillary still won the popular vote by the largest margin in US history. She had 2.8 million more votes than Trump. Second place is Bush v Gore at just over 500 thousand.

    I’m not saying sexism wasn’t a factor in 2016, but I think it should be obvious that a woman can win the even in this toxic environment.

    Hell, Sanders himself was beaten by a woman in 2016 primary, so I have no idea why he would say a woman can’t win 2020.

    He's an old white guy they say stupid shit all the time.

    He's Jewish, actually.
    And here, we have a perfect example.


    As I was scrolling through, catching up, this post jumped out at me and took the wind out of my lungs.

    Somebody is saying that you can't be White and also be Jewish! Jews only count as White when it suits the majority! I'm no longer white, I'm "other" because I'm Jewish. The outrage! The hurt! The 'holy shit fuck you' reaction.

    And then, I stopped, I thought, I paused, and I talked it over with some friends. And those friends pointed out that maybe I was misinterpreting this post in a way that was harmful to myself but wasn't really the intention of the poster/speaker.

    Perhaps this post/statement was to remind others that while Sanders is in fact an old white man, he is also Jewish and so has some understanding of being a minority. This was not a statement of 'either/or', instead it was a statement of 'also is'.

    But man, I was full of righteous fire and fury at what I was pretty sure that I read/heard in this tiny exchange that everybody else seems to have missed. I guess it's just a good example of how a well-meaning statement from a well-meaning ally might be said with sincerity, but heard completely different from somebody else who is a part of that minority.

    I only have a fraction of jewish ancestry and I don't identify as jewish. But I come off as jewish enough to get weird fucking comments from people occasionally. Like, I get comments about how I remind people of a clearly jewish comedian like Larry David or Ari Shaffir and people just out of the blue try to talk about Israel with me.

    I think that's the actual reality of being jewish, you really are treated as an "other" in parts of the US. It's not overtly hostile alienation, but it's creepy nevertheless. Mass media kinda papers over it because jews are more ubiquitous in urban centers like LA and NY, but the the weird sentiments about jewishness are out there. Sanders is not just any old white man in the eyes of the American public.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Dumb thought:


    Is all this a Would vs Could conversational breakdown that has spiraled wildly into stupidland?

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Talk of Sanders supporters being toxic on twitter is remnants of the last primary. You can find toxic supporters for every candidate and in numbers comparable given their support.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Dumb thought:


    Is all this a Would vs Could conversational breakdown that has spiraled wildly into stupidland?
    Yes.

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  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    Talk of Sanders supporters being toxic on twitter is remnants of the last primary. You can find toxic supporters for every candidate and in numbers comparable given their support.

    All social media is a bubble so everybody's experience may vary, but I definitely see way more angry Sanders stans, both on their own posts and anything pro-Warren, than I do for other candidates. I don't explicitly follow anybody for US politics, either, though the youtubers I follow lean left.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Meanest interactions Ive had online or while door knocking have been with Harris supporters so you know, ymmv.

    Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    It is weird how this is used as a defense because it is literally Sanders dismissing the idea that race and gender matter in US society. He literally said in 1988 that the US had overcome racism and sexism and they didn't matter any more. A more extensive version of the clip (+ the quote so I don't have to type it out) is this (video in link)
    What Jackson has going against him is not primarily, in my view, is not primarily that he’s black. I mean, there are some people who won’t vote for somebody who’s black, and that’s that. That’s a minority.

    And I think one of the changes, if people think I’m dumping on the United States, let me say that one of the nice changes that has taken place in the last twenty to thirty years is that, in fact, a person like Jesse Jackson can run for president of the United States and be taken seriously. Who would have thought about that twenty years ago? A black person running.

    I think the issue is not a racial issue. I think it’s a class issue.I think if you had a conservative black person, somebody like Mayor Goode of Philadelphia running – I think the business community would put money into his campaign and would say, boy! It’s time for a black President. The real issue is not whether you’re black or white, whether you’re a woman or a man. In my view a woman could be elected President of the United States. The real issue is whose side are you on? Are you on the side of workers and poor people, or are you on the side of big money and the corporations? Jackson is on the side of poor people and working people.
    The full interview is here

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4539766/user-clip-classic-bernie-sanders-1988-interview-individuals-money-dominate-political-process

    The next thing out of Sanders mouth is dismissing and diminishing MLK's efforts for racial justice. And he claims that
    Everybody today, all the editorial papers say, 'Oh wasn't Martin Luther King a great guy, he fought for racial justice, a great hero.' Remember a year before King died, when King spoke out againsand when King said we need billions of dollars to provide jobs, not only for black people but for white people. And when King said I am going to organize a Poor People's March to go Washington of blacks and whites and yellows, but of poor people.

    When Martin Luther King said started talking that language and taking on the system - Suddenly when MLK started talking [about poor whites] the FBI started tapping his phone, the President wasn't talking to him. The real issue in this country is class.

    It is an incredibly regressive anti-woke position, denying the importance of racism and sexism to US society.
    The next question is actually about apartheid in which he says Reagan refuses to oppose apartheid because he favors the rich, which he (more or less correctly) describes as a "Nazi country" that is exploiting their poor people "who happen to be black." White supremacy and/or racism as motivation doesn't even enter into brain.

    If this is a defense that in 1988 Sanders said a woman could be President based on his belief that sexism was not still an important part of US society, wouldn't that necessarily require he still holds that fairly right wing position? And if he doesn't, then necessarily that is not really a response to the claim.

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  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Hoz wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Warren supporters talk about US sexism and what that does for female politicians all the time. Its one of the primary reasons given for the 2016 loss. To then act like someone saying that women under that environment couldnt win the presidency is being sexist just feels like a serious stretch unless you believe Sanders was actually saying women as a class arent good enough to win due to their own failures as a class, which is beyond parody.

    Hillary still won the popular vote by the largest margin in US history. She had 2.8 million more votes than Trump. Second place is Bush v Gore at just over 500 thousand.

    I’m not saying sexism wasn’t a factor in 2016, but I think it should be obvious that a woman can win the even in this toxic environment.

    Hell, Sanders himself was beaten by a woman in 2016 primary, so I have no idea why he would say a woman can’t win 2020.

    He's an old white guy they say stupid shit all the time.

    He's Jewish, actually.
    And here, we have a perfect example.


    As I was scrolling through, catching up, this post jumped out at me and took the wind out of my lungs.

    Somebody is saying that you can't be White and also be Jewish! Jews only count as White when it suits the majority! I'm no longer white, I'm "other" because I'm Jewish. The outrage! The hurt! The 'holy shit fuck you' reaction.

    And then, I stopped, I thought, I paused, and I talked it over with some friends. And those friends pointed out that maybe I was misinterpreting this post in a way that was harmful to myself but wasn't really the intention of the poster/speaker.

    Perhaps this post/statement was to remind others that while Sanders is in fact an old white man, he is also Jewish and so has some understanding of being a minority. This was not a statement of 'either/or', instead it was a statement of 'also is'.

    But man, I was full of righteous fire and fury at what I was pretty sure that I read/heard in this tiny exchange that everybody else seems to have missed. I guess it's just a good example of how a well-meaning statement from a well-meaning ally might be said with sincerity, but heard completely different from somebody else who is a part of that minority.

    I only have a fraction of jewish ancestry and I don't identify as jewish. But I come off as jewish enough to get weird fucking comments from people occasionally. Like, I get comments about how I remind people of a clearly jewish comedian like Larry David or Ari Shaffir and people just out of the blue try to talk about Israel with me.

    I think that's the actual reality of being jewish, you really are treated as an "other" in parts of the US. It's not overtly hostile alienation, but it's creepy nevertheless. Mass media kinda papers over it because jews are more ubiquitous in urban centers like LA and NY, but the the weird sentiments about jewishness are out there. Sanders is not just any old white man in the eyes of the American public.



    Right.

    So I, being Jewish and having an understanding of that 'othering', read that statement initially as just another way of 'othering' being Jewish.

    Much like somebody who has been told for a lot of their adult life that "a woman can't do that" would likely have also heard an otherwise innocuous conversation about the way that Donald J Trump will be a complete asshole in a general election, especially against a woman candidate, in an equally unflattering light.

    Hexmage's post is exactly 3 words long. And yet to me those words, at first, encapsulated an entire lifetime of being 'othered' and closed in around an entire internalised truth that as a Jew I'm only considered White until I'm not.

    Three words!

    Three little words, likely meant as a means of saying "Remember, Bernie isn't just your standard WASPy old man", and instead I read/heard something different.

    I'm not saying that Hexmage intended to cause hurt with those 3 words, the exact opposite almost certainly! But, did they still cause an initial reaction of pain? Absolutely. Did I read something different in what was said? Yup.

    Communication is complicated is my point.

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  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    Meanest interactions Ive had online or while door knocking have been with Harris supporters so you know, ymmv.

    Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.

    See, I completely believe you when you say that, which is why it's obnoxious when it is implied my experiences aren't true and I'm saying it because of anger over the last primary I voted for Sanders in or because it's fashionable.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Meanest interactions Ive had online or while door knocking have been with Harris supporters so you know, ymmv.

    Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.

    See, I completely believe you when you say that, which is why it's obnoxious when it is implied my experiences aren't true and I'm saying it because of anger over the last primary I voted for Sanders in or because it's fashionable.

    I have no doubt youve met plenty of shitty Sanders supporters.

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  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Meanest interactions Ive had online or while door knocking have been with Harris supporters so you know, ymmv.

    Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.

    See, I completely believe you when you say that, which is why it's obnoxious when it is implied my experiences aren't true and I'm saying it because of anger over the last primary I voted for Sanders in or because it's fashionable.

    I have no doubt youve met plenty of shitty Sanders supporters.

    Then don't reply by telling me I'm mentioning it because it's fashionable.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
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  • LadaiLadai Registered User regular
    I refuse to believe that anyone likes Biden enough to be shitty on his behalf.

    Like, I realize it takes very little effort to be shitty online.

    But still.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Meanest interactions Ive had online or while door knocking have been with Harris supporters so you know, ymmv.

    Its fashionable to bitch about Sanders supporters, thats all.

    See, I completely believe you when you say that, which is why it's obnoxious when it is implied my experiences aren't true and I'm saying it because of anger over the last primary I voted for Sanders in or because it's fashionable.

    I have no doubt youve met plenty of shitty Sanders supporters.

    Then don't reply by telling me I'm mentioning it because it's fashionable.

    I wasnt talking about you specifically in that regard. More that despite every candidate having their shitty fans and grifters its Sanders's that come up constantly. The toxic bernie bro is as much a convenient meme as it is any kind of fact.

    For instance, to borrow from past experiences with Harris stans, 30 seconds on twitter will bring you plenty of her people talking about how they hope Trump wins as punishment for not supporting her. Do we talk about it? No of course not who gives a fuck, but inquisitorial questions about where Sanders's supporters' loyalties lie are so common as to be cliche.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Ladai wrote: »
    I refuse to believe that anyone likes Biden enough to be shitty on his behalf.

    Like, I realize it takes very little effort to be shitty online.

    But still.

    Most of them just get paid 6 digit figures to do it on TV and print.

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