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Tipping/Gratuity Culture

joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
edited April 2023 in Debate and/or Discourse
If you're not American this thread is going to be super confusing to you, but I invite you to participate anyway! Your perspective and experience will be super helpful.

Tipping is a sum of money, paid over and above the cost of a good or service, specifically intended to go to the employee(s) serving you. There is no rule about how much or how little one can tip their server(s). It can be given in cash (typically either stuffed into a jar on a countertop or left on a table as one is leaving a restaurant) or paid at the point of sale by adding the amount to the credit card receipt.

Lately the practice has become... different? Tipping has historically been done at a limited subset of services. Restaurants would remind you to tip your servers. Valet parking would be another place you might expect to tip someone, or if you have a lot of luggage and need hotel staff to help you up to your room, you would probably give them a gratuity for their assistance. Coffee shops also typically have some kind of cup to leave a tip in, usually with some kind of amusing saying hand-written on it; in this kind of scenario, the tip is a "pool" and you aren't giving money directly to your server, it's split at the end of a shift between all the floor staff.

But nowadays, at least here in the States, you get a tipping prompt at many, many more interactions. Recently I had my vehicle repaired and was prompted to tip my mechanic after swiping my card, as an example. Some retail shops will also prompt you to tip the salesperson.

On top of this, the usual expectation for a minimum tip was ~15% of the total on your receipt. When I was growing up, that was the guideline. 15% for average service, more than that if the service was good, less if it was bad in some exceptional way. I've heard now that this expectation has increased in at least some areas to 20-25%.

Let's just get my personal opinion out of the way here. Tipping culture is a relic of a bygone time when workers were exploited and the expense of hiring staff was pushed off onto consumers. Other countries manage to pay their service staff a decent wage without going out of business. In fact, in some places, an American tourist trying to tip their servers is seen as insulting.

But there are other reasons to want to get past tipping as a country. For one, it's a highly discriminatory practice; studies show that black servers are tipped less than their white counterparts. And that's to say nothing of the sexism at the root of it all; "attractive" women get higher tips than "unattractive" women, along with both groups receiving unwanted attention in different ways.

For another, the tipped subminimum wage is only $2.13 an hour, and has stayed there since 1991. Now, some states/businesses pay more than that, but if you're a server in Texas? You probably get that much or close to it.

Now, one thing I'm not saying here is "everybody stop tipping". Unless and until we move past this as a nation and start forcing businesses to pay a fair wage, tip your goddamn servers. But we need to talk about both the practice itself (and its roots in racism/sexism) and its creeping expansion into other service industries. Is it okay to put a tipping prompt at the point of sale for every service interaction? Where's the line? How much should we be expected to pay in these instances? And why shouldn't businesses, especially businesses that are making record profits, simply pay their staff a living wage in the first place? Is this just too ingrained in our culture to get past?

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    If you removed the minimum wage exemptions the results would not be that you could just stop leaving a tip. The price of the meal would go up equivalent to the average tip. Maybe even more. But that would be an improvement over the current system.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    Some states and restaurants have gone to actually paying their servers minimum wage at least and generally put a notice on stuff about that that tipping isn't required, but minimum wage is still garbage pay so it's still not really good pay.

    I have a bunch of bartender and waiter friends so I always give at least 20% tip unless they are super garbage at their job. And even then I still tip because I know the pay isn't there. But outside of servers and barbers/hairdressers I don't really feel the need to tip anybody unless I want to give them extra cash because they are legitimately great at their job. But most places that aren't built on paying their employees less are pretty tough on not tipping employees. As much as I like Publix they make it pretty obvious you shouldn't tip the baggers even if they're taking your groceries out which can be pretty terrible in Florida weather.

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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    I avoid places that use tipping when I can (although this is impossible when, say, going out to eat), and tip 15% or $1 per drink if it is the rare day I'm at a pub anymore. I skip the prompt at any place that isn't a restaurant or barber. I would be confused about a prompt to tip my mechanic... I can see the shop labor rate on the receipt! I'd rather the practice go away but I know some people that work on tips swear they can make more than they would at a similar job that paid wages. I doubt it works well for PTO.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    If you removed the minimum wage exemptions the results would not be that you could just stop leaving a tip. The price of the meal would go up equivalent to the average tip. Maybe even more. But that would be an improvement over the current system.

    My understanding of American barbarity is that service staff get paid less that minimum wage with the expectation to compensate in tips. The actual cost of the meal is still the cost of the meal. Any price adjustment would be equal to what you tip because, without tip, you're just starving someone to eat yourselves.

    Anyways I'm in the UK as a kitchen porter: All the tips of a shift get split evenly while I make minimum wage and I get about like, £40 a month from it or £75 if I served on the more hectic shifts.

    Tipping culture seems a perfectly fine human interaction until exposed to scorching hot capitalism trying to optimize "I would like to give the staff a tenner for being cool this evening,"

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    One thing worth mentioning as someone who has 10+ years in service industry work, is that most tips are not reported on taxes (in that people just are claiming they got very little to avoid being taxed). I think some servers and bartenders really do believe they make more by doing this

    The problem is many restaurants and bars do a tip pool so everyone makes the same tips (terrible system) or the servers are expected to also tip out cooks, bussers, dishwashers etc sometimes

    The entire system is really weird and backwards and lot of shady stuff happens to service industry folks in every position. Tipping needs to go, because it's a trick to make you work harder for the chance at more money

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Tip pools rule. Service staff tips depend on porter and chefs work.

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    MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    If I have to tip, I try to do so in cash directly to the server. I've been a victim of tip theft before working in restaurants and the hell if I'm paying for a manager's salary with that money either.

    Also, it showing everyone is a symptom of it being a default option on square and other phone/tablet pay programs that I assume places are just taking adventage of when it happens. I will give any place that isn't a restaurant or similar service a hard side-eye if they solicit for those.

    Tipping is an archaic practice used to justify not paying workers out of the company's pocket and instead turn it over to the whims and guilty consciences of customers. We need to kill the practice and implement stronger wage laws.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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    Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Grateful that Washington state doesn't allow that nonsense, or at least didn't when I was delivering pizza, because tips go to a lot of additional costs like gasoline and car maintenance. There was talk once about allowing it and I was pretty angry because it just wouldn't make sense to deliver pizza in that situation, but thankfully it never happened.

    The kind of person that orders a luxury like pizza but then claim they can't afford a tip is just the worst kind of insufferable goose.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Tip pools rule. Service staff tips depend on porter and chefs work.

    Sure. The problem is when the cooks and other workers are making a better wage, and then getting tips on top (tips that should go to the servers who get paid like shit per hour)

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Tip pools rule. Service staff tips depend on porter and chefs work.

    Sure. The problem is when the cooks and other workers are making a better wage, and then getting tips on top (tips that should go to the servers who get paid like shit per hour)

    This isn't a tipping issue it's an America loves cyberpunk larp issue.

    Like ultimately my whole take on tipping is just: Yeah, rich folk get better service so folk get better money. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't how I prioritized clients for my erotica stuff. It's fucking weird that America has made that basic fact of how economics works into life and death wages issues for service staff.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Since America is pretty much the topic of this discussion, yeah I agree but that was kinda implied. We're dealing with a situation that's been in play for decades maybe even longer.

    Problem is the power dynamics involved as well; having worked in many bars, I've seen rich men pressure young women into drinking with them, doing shots, etc with a big tip on the line. One girl was tipped 1000 dollars to sit by a guy and take shots with them all night. She went home throwing up but later said she didn't regret it because it paid her rent in one single night.

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    Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Oh yeh it was understood you shared about a quarter of your tips with the cooks and such. Because without cooked pizza you can't deliver anything! Only really skipped that when it was a manager cooking, as managers didn't need the help (salaried) .

    We once got a manager that got angry we weren't sharing tips with him like we did with the regular min wage cooks and... He was terrible for several reasons but that's the one I remember after all these years.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Yeah again a delivery driver usually makes more per hour then a server or bartender and, atleast in most cases, are reimbursed for gas.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    If you removed the minimum wage exemptions the results would not be that you could just stop leaving a tip. The price of the meal would go up equivalent to the average tip. Maybe even more. But that would be an improvement over the current system.

    The entire west coast (including Alaska and functionally* Hawaii) has eliminated the minimum wage exemptions, which are not exemptions at all anyway. To explain: the "tipped wage" is actually a tip credit that an employer can take against the full minimum wage owed to an employee. It cannot exceed actual tips received, and there is a federal maximum of $5.12 per hour that can be credited this way. That's where $2.13 an hour comes from...$7.25 minimum wage, less $5.12 per hour in tip credit. Point being, if you do not tip your server cannot legally be paid less than the minimum wage. They do not get paid $2.13 plus tips, they get paid $7.25 minus tips. Your tips reduce their wages as paid by the employer, full stop. But of course, in almost every case they make more this way than they would without tipping, because if that weren't the case they'd walk across the street to any minimum wage retail job and take that instead.

    Anyway, back to the west coast. Where I live servers make something on the order of $15 an hour, plus tips, and there is no tip credit. Now where I live is very expensive, and $15 an hour is hardly a living wage, but the point is that there are many retail or fast food establishments where the pay is at or near that $15 minimum, and I've yet to have anybody explain to me how it makes sense to expect patrons of full-service dining to voluntarily hand cash to an employee, cash not owed, "just because" at one service position but not at another. Do I want servers to make a living wage? Yes. Do I want the CSR at Target to make a living wage? Also yes. Do I think that what is effectively panhandling at the table is the way to accomplish this? Nope. Yet even as the entire west coast has eliminated the "tipped minimum wage," the expected tip percentage has still climbed over 20% (which is now put often forward as the "minimum" tip) and every other transaction is looking to get in on the action.

    So removing the minimum wage tip credit did result in a slight increase in menu prices...the 4% "service fee" is common now...and you are still forced to break out another 20% voluntarily to a server that, in many cases, is making more than a teacher in that same area with a masters degree.

    We need a higher minimum wage, we need single payer health care, we need mandatory PTO, we need a million other things to make sure workers can live their lives. But no, we do not need tipping. It's a horrible practice.

    It may sound like I hate servers here, I don't. I was raised by one. I've been one. I've also worked retail, and spent 20, 30 minutes helping a customer find the exact thing they need and truly cared about the service I provided...then had them walk away, content that I'm making ten cents above minimum. That's wild to me. I also hate the practice because as somebody who is socially awkward the last thing I want to do is turn paying for my meal into a high stakes social interaction. Did my server do well? How much was their labor worth? I'm not entering into a subcontractor relationship with them, doing employee evaluations, and putting a dollar figure on their performance. Or I'm with friends, we're splitting the check...how much is everybody else tipping? Am I being a cheapass? Do my friends think I'm a cheapass? Fuuuuuuuuck.

    And while the easy, snarky answer is often "well just tip 20% if it's too hard for you" the fact that I was tipping 15% thinking that was the norm up until like a year ago...I legitimately thought these were good tips...illustrates the pitfall there. Because there's no actual "official" rules here, I was taught in the 90's that it was 15%, sometime in the 00's it bumped to 20%, and nobody told me.. So now I'm moritfied that I've looked like a cheapass for the last twenty years (see: socially awkward). Which is part of why the entire system is stupid.

    Mister Pink was right. He was an asshole. But he was right.

    I actually got into it a bit with my mom not long ago on this issue. Again, she was a waitress for decades, and all due respect to the work she did. But she was asking about the new prompts at traditionally untipped service positions (like cashiers) and asking "why am I tipping this person?" And I asked "why aren't you tipping them?" Like mom, was the service I provided working at a video store, a retail store, fast food, or any number of other jobs beneath what you did as a server? Why was minimum wage fine for me, but not servers? It's just layers and layers of toxic norms around this custom, it needs to die horribly.

    * - They have like a $10 an hour minimum, with something like a $1 tip credit (for a $9 "tipped minimum"), but only if the server is clearing over $17 with tips. Something like that. It's effectively not a thing.

    mcdermott on
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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Since America is pretty much the topic of this discussion, yeah I agree but that was kinda implied. We're dealing with a situation that's been in play for decades maybe even longer.

    Problem is the power dynamics involved as well; having worked in many bars, I've seen rich men pressure young women into drinking with them, doing shots, etc with a big tip on the line. One girl was tipped 1000 dollars to sit by a guy and take shots with them all night. She went home throwing up but later said she didn't regret it because it paid her rent in one single night.

    I mean at that point you're way past the pail of tipping culture in the UK and are just trying to hire a whore.

    Which is basically just tipping in general: The service is already there, you pay for food and drink, you get food and drink. Tipping is theoretically an extra bribe.

    And I'm a mercenary shite who'd jump for ten bucks but it's gross as a base eco system for the job.

    No job is free of some rich loser walking in and waving green around to break contract and decency. Tipping culture lets 'em do it under socially acceptable terms.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    It's insanity, but of course I'd say that as a foreign national (from a non-tipping country, Taiwan). In the previous generation I believe (I was born in the mid-1980s), even when the country was much poorer, apparently the concept of tipping (maybe brought over by American troops before they left, who were accustomed to it) was actually considered rude, in a "So you think you have to bribe me in order for me to do my job/not ignore your place in line/not spit in your food," kind of overt way (since tipping is, after all, a very overt act). To the point where the customary response was stern refusal, never mind actual business policy (which also forbade it).

    The reasons are self-explanatory (a lot of our business practice was influenced by Japan unsurprisingly, and there is no separate minimum wage for the service or restaurant industry). I haven't had much exposure to it (I live abroad as an expatriate and seldom go home), but apparently it's gradually become acceptable solely in the venue of international hotels (particularly those catering towards American visitors). Given that Americans are sometimes hired in those capacities, I suppose that makes sense (they still have to be paid a legal wage, but wages are comparatively low in Taiwan, not in the least because living expenses, food, and utilities are all heavily subsidized by the state). I really, really don't want the practice to gain acceptance anywhere else (I should add, service charges at some restaurants have slowly become a thing in the last few decades, but I still would prefer those to having to tip).

    Actually having to pass someone a tip--like at a car wash--is incredibly awkward and anxiety-inducing and I hate it.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    I enjoyed being in Seattle for PAX and every restaurant just included 18% and it was part of the check.

    It made things a lot easier.

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I enjoyed being in Seattle for PAX and every restaurant just included 18% and it was part of the check.

    It made things a lot easier.

    I actually have no issue whatsoever with an 18% "service fee" being added to checks to ensure staff are well compensated, as long as it's disclosed prominently up front. I'd prefer it be reflected in menu prices, mind. I get why that fails at present, because consumers are morons who would balk at those menu prices (then pay the exact same across the street after tipping). But to me it eliminates any of the awkwardness at the end of "how much was this service worth," and I know that I'm probably paying what everybody else is, easy peasy.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    So removing the minimum wage tip credit did result in a slight increase in menu prices...the 4% "service fee" is common now...and you are still forced to break out another 20% voluntarily to a server that, in many cases, is making more than a teacher in that same area with a masters degree.

    This brings up another problem. How do you get people at actually stop tipping? Changing wage laws isn't going to remove the social pressure.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Yeah if it's an economic thing and you need to charge more to make sure your staff are paid fairly, just tell me up front, straight up. I know when I'm eating out that it's a luxury and should expect to pay more for it.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    So removing the minimum wage tip credit did result in a slight increase in menu prices...the 4% "service fee" is common now...and you are still forced to break out another 20% voluntarily to a server that, in many cases, is making more than a teacher in that same area with a masters degree.

    This brings up another problem. How do you get people at actually stop tipping? Changing wage laws isn't going to remove the social pressure.

    Yeah like was said a few posts above, conceptually tipping extra is fine; it's when it's used as an excuse to pay people like shit that it becomes a problem. Tips should be a generosity thing, not a way for businesses to pay their employees nothing and pass that onto the customer who can then decide to not tip at all should they feel like it

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    u7stthr17eud.png
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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    If the tip becomes a line item then it is like the mechanic bill, you just have an extra line for labor at the restaurant. While that might be better rolled into the prices, it does make it clear you don't need to tip anymore.

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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    Tip pools rule. Service staff tips depend on porter and chefs work.

    Sure. The problem is when the cooks and other workers are making a better wage, and then getting tips on top (tips that should go to the servers who get paid like shit per hour)

    Including tips, bussers generally make less than servers. They get tipped out because they can't survive on minimum wage.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Paying extra for a good night out so all the staff can drink and eat well for a bit: Cool as heck

    Paying a mandatory fee so the staff don't starve but technically it's optional: Dystopian.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Magell wrote: »
    Some states and restaurants have gone to actually paying their servers minimum wage at least and generally put a notice on stuff about that that tipping isn't required, but minimum wage is still garbage pay so it's still not really good pay.

    I have a bunch of bartender and waiter friends so I always give at least 20% tip unless they are super garbage at their job. And even then I still tip because I know the pay isn't there. But outside of servers and barbers/hairdressers I don't really feel the need to tip anybody unless I want to give them extra cash because they are legitimately great at their job. But most places that aren't built on paying their employees less are pretty tough on not tipping employees. As much as I like Publix they make it pretty obvious you shouldn't tip the baggers even if they're taking your groceries out which can be pretty terrible in Florida weather.

    It is my understanding that all servers must get the minimum wage after tips, if their tips do not bring them up to minimum wage they have to be paid more

    The minimum wage being almost half the amount you have to make to afford a cheap 1 bedroom apartment in most of the US

    override367 on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    So removing the minimum wage tip credit did result in a slight increase in menu prices...the 4% "service fee" is common now...and you are still forced to break out another 20% voluntarily to a server that, in many cases, is making more than a teacher in that same area with a masters degree.

    This brings up another problem. How do you get people at actually stop tipping? Changing wage laws isn't going to remove the social pressure.

    My answer: you stop tipping, you encourage others to stop tipping, or at the very least you do not socially shame others for not tipping.

    Now, again, socially awkward...so I'm not practicing what I'm preaching here. I have started lowering what I tip, particularly at places where I'm not a regular, because fuck it. I don't owe you this money.. I've also gotten very comfortable smacking the "No Tip" button on over-the-counter transactions, but that still just leads to the two-tiered service industry, where table service makes bank and counter service can get fucked. But yeah, you stop it by stopping.. There's no other way.

    I do wonder if eliminating the tip credit nationwide might make non-tipping more socially acceptable, since there are so many misconceptions around it (people thinking servers make less than minimum when they don't, people from tip-credit states tipping in non-tip-credit states, etc.). I still think it would persist though, because performative generosity is a drug for some people and so the social pressure would remain.

    Hell, even in Europe where it's substantially less of a custom it's still kind of "a thing." At least in my experience. It's less compulsory, you'll never see a tip line on your receipt to fill in, but leaving a Euro or two on the table for good service is still pretty normal. Not this 15% nonsense, but something.. So I don't think the custom we have going in the US is going ot be easy to kill at all. But step one is questioning it at every opportunity. Next time somebody gripes about being asked to tip at a counter transaction, ask them why carrying food across a room is any different. This, I do.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    mcdermott on
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    Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I actually rarely take service quality into account because I know sometimes folks are just having a rough day or someone called in sick or something that isn't their fault. You'd have to be directly and purposefully rude to me or obviously not trying to do the work for me to cut my tip and even then I'm going to at least give 5% at the absolute lowest.

    To me it's less being grateful for a particular level of service and more just being grateful you are there at all and that you tried to do the work.

    I do not really have an opinion about if it's actually a good system or not from an economic / social perspective. I can't imagine how anything would work without it, especially pizza, but I have barely been outside the country so there's a lot about life in foreign countries I can't imagine.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    Its part of the first step.

    You have to eliminate the tiered system for pay.

    And then work on the system on the cultural side.

    Otherwise you just fuck those on the tiered system because they will get fucked by it.

    u7stthr17eud.png
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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    I mean at this point it's factored into both the industry and individual margins.

    If you can click a magic wand where people get a 20% raise and you don't have to tip 20% then sure, actually changing practice has more friction.

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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    Pizza would be super easy, they'd just pay you commission on pizzas delivered on top of whatever your compensation otherwise is. I always pick my pizzas up but have always thought it was funny that the places that had delivery fees had to make it clear that that wasn't the tip for the driver.... 'why not? make it higher if you need to to give it to him?'

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    I never really had an issue with tipping until recently because the expectation to tip was always generally isolated to

    1) services where going above should be rewarded and/or I know they aren’t making at least minimum wage, to say nothing about a livable wage (server, haircut, etc.)

    2) jobs where someone is doing a job for me that would just suck to do myself (I’m getting ready to move so movers come to mind as well as food delivery)

    It seems anymore everything is expecting a tip though. I order food for pickup, go in an get it myself, totaling 30 seconds of interaction with an employee and need to tip them for a service that didn’t actually happen?

    My fiancé and I were reading yesterday that we are apparently supposed to tip our wedding planner. This is someone who runs their own business, and is providing a service that we are paying thousands for (well above a livable wage when you do the pay per hour breakdown). I’m supposed to tip 20% on top of that?

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I actually rarely take service quality into account because I know sometimes folks are just having a rough day or someone called in sick or something that isn't their fault. You'd have to be directly and purposefully rude to me or obviously not trying to do the work for me to cut my tip and even then I'm going to at least give 5% at the absolute lowest.

    To me it's less being grateful for a particular level of service and more just being grateful you are there at all and that you tried to do the work.

    I do not really have an opinion about if it's actually a good system or not from an economic / social perspective. I can't imagine how anything would work without it, especially pizza, but I have barely been outside the country so there's a lot about life in foreign countries I can't imagine.

    See I disagree with a 5% minimum. I've gotten service before where I'm actually being actively ignored or insulted, and the worst I've ever done is left a penny. If you leave no tip they could rationalize it as "he just forgot", but if there's a penny they know I remembered, and they sucked. I've only ever done this twice in my lifetime, and only after consulting (or attempting to consult) with management about the poor service and getting similar treatment.

    But the thing is, I should never have to be put in this position! Even in those cases where I'm still being actively treated like crap, I still feel guilty about tipping this way, even though it's clearly their own fault for shitting on me. Just pay people a fair wage and if I have a super bad experience I can just resolve myself never to go back there. The current system where I have to reward somebody for doing a shite job and being a jerk to me or else feel like a bad person sucks.

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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    Its part of the first step.

    You have to eliminate the tiered system for pay.

    And then work on the system on the cultural side.

    Otherwise you just fuck those on the tiered system because they will get fucked by it.

    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.
    LostNinja wrote: »
    I never really had an issue with tipping until recently because the expectation to tip was always generally isolated to

    1) services where going above should be rewarded and/or I know they aren’t making at least minimum wage, to say nothing about a livable wage (server, haircut, etc.)

    2) jobs where someone is doing a job for me that would just suck to do myself (I’m getting ready to move so movers come to mind as well as food delivery)

    It seems anymore everything is expecting a tip though. I order food for pickup, go in an get it myself, totaling 30 seconds of interaction with an employee and need to tip them for a service that didn’t actually happen?

    My fiancé and I were reading yesterday that we are apparently supposed to tip our wedding planner. This is someone who runs their own business, and is providing a service that we are paying thousands for (well above a livable wage when you do the pay per hour breakdown). I’m supposed to tip 20% on top of that?

    Again, everybody makes minimum wage with very few exceptions (children on farms, family businesses, etc.). Servers make minimum wage minus tips. If you want a server to make full minimum wage, literally the only thing you have to do is not tip.

    mcdermott on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    Some states and restaurants have gone to actually paying their servers minimum wage at least and generally put a notice on stuff about that that tipping isn't required, but minimum wage is still garbage pay so it's still not really good pay.

    I have a bunch of bartender and waiter friends so I always give at least 20% tip unless they are super garbage at their job. And even then I still tip because I know the pay isn't there. But outside of servers and barbers/hairdressers I don't really feel the need to tip anybody unless I want to give them extra cash because they are legitimately great at their job. But most places that aren't built on paying their employees less are pretty tough on not tipping employees. As much as I like Publix they make it pretty obvious you shouldn't tip the baggers even if they're taking your groceries out which can be pretty terrible in Florida weather.

    It is my understanding that all servers must get the minimum wage after tips, if their tips do not bring them up to minimum wage they have to be paid more

    The minimum wage being almost half the amount you have to make to afford a cheap 1 bedroom apartment in most of the US

    My understanding is that plenty of wage theft happens with that though and good luck actually getting paid that minimum wage.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    zaarainzaarain Registered User new member
    IMHO tips in most commercial situations are basically legalized and socially reinforced fraud on the part of the business. The business is allowed to advertise a lower price than what you're actually expected to pay. Apologists excuse this with "you're not actually required to tip" but the stuff about tipped staff being paid less than minimum wage (in most areas) proves that to be a dodgy claim at best (and minimum wage itself barely meets cost of living expenses, if that). Plus it's common in restaurants to have a mandatory tip added to the check for parties above a certain size. "Fees" not rolled into the advertised price are basically the same thing except in that case you are required to pay.

    I started tipping restaurant staff more during COVID - they were literally putting their health, if not their life, on the line. It's increasingly common for POS machines to default to 20% and occasionally I see even more which just causes me change it to below 15% because of the pure exploitation of the whole thing.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    Its part of the first step.

    You have to eliminate the tiered system for pay.

    And then work on the system on the cultural side.

    Otherwise you just fuck those on the tiered system because they will get fucked by it.

    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Higher minimum wage is good but attacking the way folks can make bougie people pay them twice their rate isn't praxis.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I also suspect that a lot of people who argue they make more with tips than they ever would on a salary are either working for a very high-end restaurant where the tips by default are going to be very high on account of the bill totals just being higher, or aren't actually doing the math. Or both. It could also very well be the case that this is their situation because they aren't declaring all their cash tips as income to the IRS, which is very common practice.

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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So one of the examples of moving away from the tipped wage is DC. The city passed through referendum for the second time the end of the tipped minimum wage making it equal to the minimum wage by 2027. The timeline is available on the DC government website. By July this year the "tipped minimum" will be $8 an hour. I wish it was faster but this is one way to start the shift.

    https://does.dc.gov/service/office-wage-hour-compliance-0

    It may have gotten lost in my long-winded initial post, but eliminating the tip credit actually does not put even the slightest dent in tipping.

    California hasn't had a tip credit for, like...forty years? Still 20%/25%/30% suggested tips at restaurants nowadays.

    Its part of the first step.

    You have to eliminate the tiered system for pay.

    And then work on the system on the cultural side.

    Otherwise you just fuck those on the tiered system because they will get fucked by it.

    There is no tiered system.

    Everybody makes at least minimum wage.

    If making minimum wage is "getting fucked," then that's the part we need to fix. Because plenty of people are making at or near minimum wage in customarily untipped positions. No reason table servers are special here.

    Yes. Let's look at the rest of the US.

    u930loizcdpi.png


    Here is the first problem. Great for Cali. Great for DC in 4 years. Great for Washington state.

    But the US isn't a single state. The real answer is a flat minimum for all workers at a national level.

    And then along with that a national shift through campaigns and possible banning of tipping to get rid of it.

    Sadly it isn't a "just stop tipping they get minimum wage anyway" answer.

    Like many things it a national collective action problem.

    So it will probably limp along till a national shift occurs.

    u7stthr17eud.png
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